Question for DeepFat

T,

Glad to help out.

First, tell your grandson never to stop asking questions, and to always listen to the answers.

We all come from the same place, the Earth. On the Earth, there is a system of life, and we are part of it. Life arose billions of years ago, when certain chemicals combined and were able to reproduce themselves. After millions of such reproductions, the chemicals changed, and often the changes were good enough so that those chemicals went on reproducing in their new forms. This process continued for over a billion years before the first single-celled organism ever lived. As you can see, there is a process benind life, and we call it Evolution.

Little man, your grandmother says you are a Christian. Do you know why? Did you ask to become one? Why aren't you a Moslem, a Jew, or a Scientologist? Lots of boys your age are, you know.

I love spaghetti! It's delicious. Now, what do you think the Flying Spaghetti Monster really is?

I used to believe in God, just like you. I went to Sunday School and prayed and did all the usual Christian stuff. Eventually, I came to an age when I could not accept the weak and unsatisfying answers to my questions.

You know the questions. Questions like "Why did god let my puppy die?" or "Why does god let people suffer?". They're very good questions.

The answers I got to them were stuff like "Free Will". If you don't understand Free Will, don't worry, it's something someone made up a long time ago for lack of a better answer. Free Will is a very poor answer to our good questions.

Sometimes I would hear stuff like "Don't worry about it, just have faith". That is a very poor answer, too.

There is a lot to learn about religion, young fella. I can't tell it all to you in this post, but as you continue to learn, ask lots of questions. Then, ask yourself if the answers really satisfy you, or is someone trying to fool you?

If you have more questions, ask anytime. My best to you both.

DF

He said he is a Christian because thats how he's been raised ,,in the Church . He was Baptized last year . Nobody pushed him to get Baptized ,it was his choice . he dont live here in ga. with me ,he lives in Florence.

He had never heard of the flying spag. monster until he seen these threads ,,,he said he thinks its a platter of food that he makes very well. lmao

He said he bet you was a Catholic in your younger years and the Priest got hold of you and thats why you became an Atheist .

I swear I didnt say that for him, he said it .he is watching me type this .

But he said he has trouble grasping the first paragraph you wrote about chemicals ,forms, cells and evolution .

That's how most people choose their religion. It's how they're raised. See, I came to believe that is a poor reason for deciding on a particular view of reality.

What if he had been born into a Scientologist or Buddhist family? Would he be then a Scientologist or a Buddhist? Are they just as good as Christian? They see things differently. Who is right? If they are all right, or all wrong, what's the point?

Tell him to keep making good spaghetti, but don't be surprised if one day the meatballs look back at him! :P

No, I was never a Catholic, and thank goodness, never been subject to the abuse so many Catholic boys have been.

Evolution is often taught in high school. It's a subtle, multi-layered subject, and requires some previous science classes to grasp fully. It is not a simple concept, probably the best reason why so many people have a problem accepting it. I encourage him to view this video by Dr. Tyson, an astronomer and director of the Hayden Planetarium, in New York:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBrv3FmdrG4

There are more attached to it.

DF

Ok deep ,we watched the video. Now he wants to know this ,,,the video starts out by saying the Earth is over 4 billion yrs old and covered with lava and so on ,,So the Earth was there .Now where did Earth come from to get the lava on it ? >>>>> God

God created the Heavens and the Earth .

Thanks for replying to us .

Or perhaps, DF, you were Baptist and the youth minister that just looooooved young people "got to you"? (I think you know where I'm coming from with this.)

quote:

Originally posted by vick13:
Or perhaps, DF, you were Baptist and the youth minister that just looooooved young people "got to you"? (I think you know where I'm coming from with this.)

Vick,

Actually, I don't know. The Youth Minister at my church was, and remains, a fine man who would never think of misconduct with a child.

I'm not angry, or lashing out, or rebelling. My disaffection with religion was strictly an intellectual discovery that it is a band aid we put onto ignorance.

TNT and Scooter,

Just saying God did it is a silly answer. We have a pretty good idea of how and when the planets came together.

Just saying "god did it" is the end of curiosity, and is in no way scientific. Besides, who made god?

I'm glad Scooter now understands the age of the Earth; he's ahead of several people around here.

Did you see any of the other videos by Dr. Tyson?

DF

Deep,
If you don't mind, I've also got some questions.

quote:

Life arose billions of years ago, when certain chemicals combined and were able to reproduce themselves.

How or from what did the first chemical or organism originate?

[QUOTE] You know the questions. Questions like "Why did god let my puppy die?" or "Why does god let people suffer?". They're very good questions.
The answers I got to them were stuff like "Free Will". If you don't understand Free Will, don't worry, it's something someone made up a long time ago for lack of a better answer. Free Will is a very poor answer to our good questions.[QUOTE]

I am a Christian and my understanding is that there never was a promise that there would be no suffering.

Thanks for your time.

1L,

Welcome to the frying pan!

Epicurus was one of them Greek boys who thought about stuff.

He said: Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or he can, but does not want to; Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?

The popular god with whom we are familiar is said to love us. Given the above, I'd say either he does not, or he is not the god he is represented to be-- omniscient and omnipotent.

IF there is a god, and IF he loves us, why should we suffer? It's really that simple. So is the answer.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
1L,

Welcome to the frying pan!

Epicurus was one of them Greek boys who thought about stuff.

He said: Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or he can, but does not want to; Or he cannot and does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. But, if God both can and wants to abolish evil, then how come evil is in the world?

The popular god with whom we are familiar is said to love us. Given the above, I'd say either he does not, or he is not the god he is represented to be-- omniscient and omnipotent.

IF there is a god, and IF he loves us, why should we suffer? It's really that simple. So is the answer.

DF

You really don't expect them to be able to follow along do you?

Fine,

They can. Heck, Scooter understands what I'm saying.

The question is: Will they?

Further, will their clear understanding of their thinking affect their lives? Have they that much courage?

DF

Mr DeepFat,
I think you are pretty courageous to continue to defend your beliefs. We don't have a place to gather on sundays, but you are not alone in your thinking.
Flash.

There is nothing ignorant about believing in God, DF. You think you've found all the answers to your questions through Science? That's great, but Science couldn't answer my questions or complete me. God can and did.

And courage? Because of who I was at the time, it took more courage for me to surrender to God than anything I've ever done. It's also the best choice I ever made as well as one of the few choices I've made that I don't question being the right one.

1Lewis, that is true. In fact, He promises that "in this life you will have many troubles".

Flash,

You can call me DF. And thanks, I know. Glad to have you aboard.

My dear Joy,

I believe you. There is more than one way to courage. But for those of us who have given the thought much consideration, and have come to conclusions that are otherwise compelling except for social pressures, to be true to one's self requires bravery. There will be some here who do not understand this, but I know you will.

DF

Christianity:

The belief that a Jewish Zombie, who was one third of a being who fathered this zombie in a virgin human female without having sex with her, and who did miracles of magical proportions, can make you live in paradise forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood, and then telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, and either get dunked in water, or have it thrown on you.

Then he'll agree to spare your soul and protect you from an evil spirit. And all of this started because a woman, who once was a rib in a man's side, was convinced by a talking snake to eat fruit from a magical tree, and was cast out of paradise because of it...yeah, makes perfect sense to me!

Sassy, that is mean and rude, how dare you tell the story of the bible in such a matter of fact way.
Shame on you for not believing in such a believable story. *shakes head*

Thou shalt fire the holy .45. Fire thou not the the unclean .380, nor shalt thy depend on the prideful .500.

The .32 is right out, and is a waste of centerfire ammunition.

Firest thou not the .25 ACP, as it is an abomination unto all who knoweth the truth, and firest thou the .22 in joy and wonderment in it's economy.

Highest of holies shall be the .357, which strikes with the wrath of righteousness, yet is controllable. But also the .45 shall be seen in the light of goodness and justice.

And it shall be good. And it shall be written, and therefor holy and consecrated.

DF

Hi TNT,

This is an interesting discussion you have started. There are a number of fallacies and just plain distortions used by evolutionist to defend their position. First, they swear by their holy book,Origin of the Species (Charlie Darwin), that Carbon-14 Dating proves that the earth and the universe are billions of years old. What they never bother to mention is that Carbon-14 Dating in only accurate to 50,000 years. Any age, earth or universe, above 50,000 years comes only from the cluttered minds of the evolutionists.

The Following excerpt states this very clearly:

Chronological Methods 8 - Radiocarbon Dating
http://id-archserve.ucsb.edu/anth3/courseware/Chronolog...iocarbon_Dating.html

"The practical upper limit is about 50,000 years, because so little C-14 remains after almost 9 half-lives that it may be hard to detect and obtain an accurate reading, regardless of the size of the sample."

Another site which mentions Carbon 14 Dating limitations:

How Accurate Are Carbon-14 And Other Radioactive Dating Methods?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html

The rate of decay of 14C is such that half of an amount will convert back to 14N in 5,730 years (plus or minus 40 years). This is the “half-life.” So, in two half-lives, or 11,460 years, only one-quarter of that in living organisms at present, then it has a theoretical age of 11,460 years. Anything over about 50,000 years old, should theoretically have no detectable 14C left. That is why radiocarbon dating cannot give millions of years. In fact, if a sample contains 14C, it is good evidence that it is not millions of years old.

From that same web site, we read:

Christians, by definition, take the statements of Jesus Christ seriously. He said, “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female” (Mark 10:6).

This only makes sense with a time-line beginning with the creation week thousands of years ago. It makes no sense at all if man appeared at the end of billions of years.

Now you know why evolutionist MUST also be atheists. If they were to admit that Jesus Christ truly existed, that He is God -- then they have to believe that Jesus made this statement in the Bible. Therefore, evolutionists/atheists MUST deny the Bible. The easiest way to deny the Bible -- is to deny God.

From the same site on Carbon 14 Dating limitations:

How Accurate Are Carbon-14 And Other Radioactive Dating Methods?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html

Dr. Russell Humphreys gives other processes inconsistent with billions of years in the pamphlet "Evidence for a Young World. "

Creationists cannot prove the age of the earth using a particular scientific method, any more than evolutionists can. They realize that all science is tentative because we do not have all the data, especially when dealing with the past. This is true of both creationist and evolutionist scientific arguments — evolutionists have had to abandon many “proofs” for evolution just as creationists have also had to modify their arguments.

The atheistic evolutionist W.B. Provine admitted: "Most of what I learned of the field [evolutionary biology] in graduate (1964-68) school is either wrong or significantly changed."

Creationists understand the limitations of dating methods better than evolutionists who claim that they can use processes observed in the present to “prove” that the earth is billions of years old. In reality, all dating methods, including those that point to a young earth, rely on unprovable assumptions.

Creationists ultimately date the earth historically using the chronology of the Bible. This is because they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history, which bears the evidence within it that it is the Word of God, and therefore totally reliable and error-free.

Another excerpt from that web page:

There are many lines of evidence that the radiometric dates are not the objective evidence for an old earth that many claim, and that the world is really only thousands of years old. We don't have all the answers, but we do have the sure testimony of the Word of God to the true history of the world.

TNT, I am thrilled that your grandson is a Christian believer. He has gained knowledge and spiritual discernment at his young age -- that has eluded Deep and Fish for so many decades. He can join us in praying that the Holy Spirit will do a great work in their hearts and that they, too, will finally put aside their foolish posturing -- and find the true Light.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

Scooter,

First, disregard anything Mr. Bill says. He believes the Earth is only 6000 years old.

We know better. He lies.

Second, he is ignorant of radiometric dating. I know, it's a big word, and you have no reason to understand it, but it is a scientific method to date very old rocks, which include fossils.

I know you're up to date on fossils. Fossils are where we find skeletons of dinosaurs. We know that dinosaurs are very old! 65 to 300 million years old! One of the ways we know this is radiometric dating. Don't worry if you don't understand this, it's a sophisticated scientific concept... you'll get it in time. Mr. Bill has superstitious reasons to pretend he does not understand this. Shame on him.

Mr. Bill would have you decide between god and science. This is a false and wicked choice. You can understand both. Make sure you learn as much as possible about both, ok?

DF

Picture of DeepFat

Posted 26 June 2008 04:10 PM Hide Post
Vick,

Actually, I don't know. The Youth Minister at my church was, and remains, a fine man who would never think of misconduct with a child.

I'm not angry, or lashing out, or rebelling. My disaffection with religion was strictly an intellectual discovery that it is a band aid we put onto ignorance.


Most priests are wonderful, too. My point is - to have been abused by someone affiliated with a church, one certainly does not have to be Catholic!

I think you're wonderful.

quote:

IF there is a god, and IF he loves us, why should we suffer? It's really that simple. So is the answer.

Deep,

I would agree with this statement if I believed this life was the end. But as a Christian, I believe this life is only temporary and that the purpose of this life is to prepare us for eternity. I can’t tell you why God allows suffering, but maybe it is simply to remind us that this life on earth is short and temporary.

If you have an answer, I would still like to know how the first chemicals that formed the first cell originated?

Also, thanks for trying to keep a good discussion open and friendly. Venom and sarcasm only turn people off.

I just hope God is not reading these forums.

quote:

I used to believe in God, just like you. I went to Sunday School and prayed and did all the usual Christian stuff. Eventually, I came to an age when I could not accept the weak and unsatisfying answers to my questions.

You know the questions. Questions like "Why did god let my puppy die?" or "Why does god let people suffer?". They're very good questions.

The answers I got to them were stuff like "Free Will". If you don't understand Free Will, don't worry, it's something someone made up a long time ago for lack of a better answer. Free Will is a very poor answer to our good questions.

Sometimes I would hear stuff like "Don't worry about it, just have faith". That is a very poor answer, too.

There is a lot to learn about religion, young fella. I can't tell it all to you in this post, but as you continue to learn, ask lots of questions. Then, ask yourself if the answers really satisfy you, or is someone trying to fool you?

and again, DF is unable to understand...but we haven't given up DF, we're still praying for you!
1 Corinthians 2:14 "...and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat: Scooter,

First, disregard anything Mr. Bill says. He believes the Earth is only 6000 years old.

We know better. He lies.

Second, he is ignorant of radiometric dating. I know, it's a big word, and you have no reason to understand it, but it is a scientific method to date very old rocks, which include fossils.

I know you're up to date on fossils. Fossils are where we find skeletons of dinosaurs. We know that dinosaurs are very old! 65 to 300 million years old! One of the ways we know this is radiometric dating. Don't worry if you don't understand this, it's a sophisticated scientific concept... you'll get it in time. Mr. Bill has superstitious reasons to pretend he does not understand this. Shame on him.

Mr. Bill would have you decide between god and science. This is a false and wicked choice. You can understand both. Make sure you learn as much as possible about both, ok?

DF

Hi to all,

"Mr. Bill lies!' So, saith Deep.

Has anyone noticed that, when referring to Carbon-14 Dating, I have given you links where you can verify for yourself what is said by scientists about the accuracy, or lack thereof, of Carbon-14 Dating past 50,000 years. Yet, evolutionist/atheist swear they can prove the earth is billions of years old -- by using Carbon-14 Dating. Someone sure has their carbon confused.

Next, you will notice that our Deep Friend's only rebuttal is, "Bill lies!" That is his total rebuttal -- other than, "So, saith Deep, this is the truth. Evolution is true; the earth is billions of years old. Charlie Darwin is divine. Creationist are crazy. There is no God!" And, on and on and on, ad infinitum.

So much "So saith Deep" -- but, no facts, no URL links, nothing to prove that evolutionist can date the earth to billions of years -- by Carbon-14 Dating. Sorry, my Deep Friend, that will not cut it. Even Darwin had facts; albeit very confused and often contrived.

The Bible tells us that the earth is only about 6000 years old. How do we know this? In Mark 10:6, we have Jesus Christ declaring, "But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'"

When Jesus said, ". . .from the beginning of the creation" -- what did He mean? He meant from Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

We take this starting point for mankind, declared by Jesus Himself; then we look at the genealogy of Jesus found in Luke 3 -- tracing backward from the birth of Jesus back through the many generations -- to Adam. In the Bible, we see the two genealogies; Matthew tracing His genealogy according to Jewish custom (paternal), from Abraham forward to Joseph -- and Luke tracing His genealogy the gentile way (maternal), backward from Jesus to Adam.

Admittedly, there may be gaps in the genealogies; possibly not all generations were included. But, even accounting for this; we would only be talking about maybe hundreds of years difference -- certainly nothing like the billions of years evolutionists want the world to believe.

Either way, starting with the declaration given by Jesus, ". . .from the beginning of the creation" -- and using the genealogies, one can get a fairly accurate number of years when laying these alongside the ages of different men stated in the Bible -- and we can arrive at a reasonable age of the earth based upon these facts. This is how Archbishop Usher in the 17th century, and later Sir Robert Anderson in the 19th century, made their determination of the date of creation. I would highly recommend Anderson's book, The Coming Prince to everyone interested in a deeper knowledge of the book of Daniel.

The following excerpt is from the web site: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Edit_Sir.Robert.Anderson.html

Sir Robert Anderson and the Seventy Weeks of Daniel

The significance of Sir Robert Anderson's book, "The Coming Prince" (1895), should not be underestimated by modern students of Bible prophecy, in that Anderson not only ably defended Daniel's authorship of the Book of Daniel from the "scholarship" of unbelief of the Higher Criticism of his day, but he clearly established the historical accuracy of the fulfillment of the time oriented prophecy for the First Advent of the LORD Jesus Christ. "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself" (Daniel 9:24-26).

So, my Friend, Deep, might feel that he is defending his evolutionist/atheistic position by merely calling Bill Gray a liar. That is no big problem. After all, Fish has called me and every Christian believer on the Forum liars -- hundreds of times. Whatever.

I pray that this clarifies why I sincerely believe the Bible to be the true Written Word of God -- and that it is accurate and inerrant in its moral and spiritual teaching and in its record of historical facts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Thanks everyone for all the input .
Just want to remind yall ,,Scooter is my Jack Russell Dog . lol My grandson goes by Z-Man .

Thanks Bill for your input .

Oh, man. I loved the idea that your grandson was named Scooter. Darn it.

quote:

Originally posted by tnt5862:
Na really he just wants to understand how you cant believe in God ? Thanks for your input .

GoFish you can answer too.

My friend Deep eloquently answered most of the questions the same way I would have answered them. I will only add a few thoughts.

I tried to believe for a very long time. Sometimes I succeeded a little bit such as when I traveled to the top of a mountain, looked upon the earth and felt something stirring in my heart. But mostly I had questions that god could not answer. I learned about science and explored the answers it gave us. Science says that a worldwide flood never happened. Science says that humans evolved from less complex life over a span of time that is far to great for us to even be able to think about. Science even has proof. The proof is so strong that I can go into my own back yard, pick up a limestone rock, and see the fossilized remains of some of my earliest ancestors that lived in the shallow ocean that once covered all of north Alabama.

We atheists do not believe in god for the same reasons as you probably do not believe in Santa any more. As you get older, the questions you have about Santa didn't satisfy you any more. You finally decided that he probably didn't exist. In fact, you are nearly certain that Santa doesn't exist.

But the Flying Spaghetti Monster? He is is real.

GF an DF are so nice.

Personally I like to put it right in your face.

Bill is caught up on this Carbon-14 dating thing but just to entertain his silly notion that the earth is only 6000 years old I will point out that Carbon dating (according to Bill) can prove up to 50,000 years.

So Bill, you are still missing 44,000 years of "something" that happened before your half man half spirit dude walked the earth.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Lewis:
How or from what did the first chemical or organism originate?

Science understands much about this process but one of the coolest things is this: All the evidence indicates that all the heavier elements in the universe - iron, nickel, carbon, uranium and more - were all born in the middle of a star. Most stars die in an event called a nova. When a star goes nova, it explodes, scattering it's heavy elements throughout the galaxy where they create debris that can eventually coalesce into other stars, planets, comets, moons, asteroids and meteors.

Basic chemistry causes some of the elements to interact with each other creating chemicals. Some of these chemicals are pretty complex. We have studied many of these chemicals after they have fallen on to the earth from outer space and have found that these meteorites contain all of the chemicals necessary to create the precursors to DNA.

All this to say that all of what you see on this earth once resided in the heart of a star. We are all made of star stuff! Just how freaking cool is that?

If you wish to know more, read the following excellent article:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg19826613.100...nd-on-meteorite.html

Z-Man and Fine,

We have just learned to ignore Mr. Bill. He will gladly type pages after pages of his lies, "supported" by bible verses which he has distorted and perverted to his purposes.

Just don't respond, you'll be fine.

DF

GoFish Z-Man ask where did the stars come from ? God ?

quote:

Originally posted by tnt5862:
GoFish Z-Man ask where did the stars come from ? God ?

I would think that question ranks even with "where did god come from"?

Life (as we know it) has a beginning and an end. That does not necessarily apply to everything in the cosmos.

quote:

GoFish Z-Man ask where did the stars come from ? God ?

I could also ask you: Where does god come from?

Stars come from matter that attracts (via gravity) enough other matter to reach a critical mass that results in a fusion of hydrogen with helium which ignites into a self sustaining fusion reactor. We understand this process so well that science is on the verge of supplying the planet with unlimited energy in this exact same manner.

I know you will asl: Where did that mass come from? When you ask "Where did that come from?" enough times, you will always arrive at a point where the only answer is "I Don't know."

So, the honest answer is: I don't know. You wanna insert god here, fine with me.

quote:

So, the honest answer is: I don't know. You wanna insert god here, fine with me.

OK, but if you must accept that something has always existed, it's easier to accept the universe that we can experience.

If you say god did it, I must ask where he came from.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

So, the honest answer is: I don't know. You wanna insert god here, fine with me.

OK, but if you must accept that something has always existed, it's easier to accept the universe that we can experience.

If you say god did it, I must ask where he came from.

DF

I think its easier to believe that God always existed rather than anything else.

Serious question.

Why?

There is no evidence for him.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Serious question.

Why?

There is no evidence for him.

DF

DeepFish,

What, where and when was the original incident of self awareness?

quote:

it's easier to accept the universe that we can experience

Well, until you get into quantum stuff like brane cosmology and string theory.

I don't think muman minds have evolved the ability to easily grasp certain things. It is exceedingly hard for you and I to grasp the absolute fact that the sheer fabric of reality is not what it appears to be but, fundamentally, is made of tiny bits of massless energy.

I mean, really Deep, how could someone possibly understand something like the Uncertainty Principal?

I believe we are wired to accept the simpler explanations even if they are demonstrably false. Perhaps the truth is simply too difficult for some to understand.