Questions for Christians

Can you be more specific about what you consider Contradictions to be? Personally I haven't found any but I'd be glad to attempt to handle any you present and give my opinion.

Regarding the many other remarks or references to Old Testament Scriptures (without giving the verse references for some) Many of the laws if not all were given to specific people of which you nor I are unless you are Jewish and one of the linage of the twelve tribes of Israel.

As with most of Scripture the context of the text and the purpose and who it is written to is usually needed to be able to adequately answer any question regarding that specific scripture.

How come does it seem your questions are ask more from a position of a skeptic or seeking to entrap a Christian rather than asking a question out of genuine curiosity, forgive me if I mistake the tone of the post.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
Here are a few problems of a Biblical nature:

If you believe the Bible is the word of God, especially the New Testament, then how do you explain the contradictions? What do you do in the instance of a contradiction?

Bible - Quran - BOM dissected here.

Why won't God Heal Amputees?

And this went largely unanswered and was declared a trap by some xians here.

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer.

Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

God is who HE says he is, whether you like it or not. JMHO

You have read the book "A Letter to a Christian Nation" written by a non-believer and its shows in his book his ignorance. Luckily for us we are no longer under the Law only under the blood of Christ. The blood covers our sins and the Holy Spirit is our helper. Without the Holy Spirit a person truly cannot understand the things of God or how He operates. I personally feel sorry for those people who never allow God into their lives. They are missing one of the greatest experiences of all time.

ngt,

Have YOU read "Letter to a Christian Nation"?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Can you be more specific about what you consider Contradictions to be? Personally I haven't found any but I'd be glad to attempt to handle any you present and give my opinion.

A friend of mine did a speech on Gospel Contradictions. The video is about 1 hour 20 minutes, but it should give you some detailed contradictions. Also, here is the handout, so you can follow along.

I don't really expect you to respond to all of these, but be my guest if you wish to.

Best,

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

You need to create a new thread for this called "Questions for Satanists."

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
As with any human remember that which is posted is just an opinion of the one writing the post and usually no two opinions are the same. In respect to Spiritual matters it is possible for two to disagree when people have different interpretations therefore it is important when two or more disagree then do so respectfully and if common ground cannot be found then agree to disagree.

You are coming from a point of view that all ideas are merely opinions. There have to be some theological facts.

The only reason that theological points could be only opinions is that religion is simply made up.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstural uncleanliness. (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

Paraphrasing, Penn Jillette in the show Bull$h!t on the Bible: Try asking the judge in traffic court if she's on the rag.

gbrk: I am disposed to be skeptical in the face of some passages in the Bible, and some peoples' literal acceptance of its content. Frankly, the acceptance of literal interpretations of scripture require more credulousness than I have.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Posted this on the other "Questions for Christians" thread in News & whaddaya know? It fits here nicely as well.

Actually, a better question is...What exactly makes you think that you are qualified to run the universe? What makes you uniquely qualified to see things more clearly than the Creator of the universe? Could it possibly be that a being able to speak the world into existence might know something you don't know? Perhaps the ME generation needs to grasp the concept that sometimes it's not all about you.

God is who HE says he is, whether you like it or not. JMHO

Joy, I make no representations about my qualifications to run the universe. I'll leave it to natural laws such as evolution and entropy.

What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?

Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

quote:

Posted 17 July 2008 08:42 AM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
As with any human remember that which is posted is just an opinion of the one writing the post and usually no two opinions are the same. In respect to Spiritual matters it is possible for two to disagree when people have different interpretations therefore it is important when two or more disagree then do so respectfully and if common ground cannot be found then agree to disagree.



You are coming from a point of view that all ideas are merely opinions. There have to be some theological facts.

The only reason that theological points could be only opinions is that religion is simply made up.

On the contrary, I used the word opinion because various Christians do interpret or make interpretations regarding various Scriptures that do differentiate from each other. Different Protestant denominations exist and yet hold various beliefs that differ from one another yet they tie it to the same scripture reference. Many would call this a contradiction however people are used in different ways and for different purposes and ministries. So when I used the word opinions that was basically saying that people do interpret scriptures differently and not that it's just made up.

Micah,
The handout file won't open for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?
[..snip..]
Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

These questions ought to go in a new thread "Questions for Atheists".

quote:

Originally posted by Duckbutt:
Here are a few problems of a Biblical nature:


1. The Bible clearly points out that I can sell my daughter into slavery, what is a good asking price for her nowadays?

2. The Bible tells us that we may enslave others, but only of neighboring nations. My friend tells me this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own a Canadian if I want to?

The Bible tells us that the skin of a dead pig is unclean, and we are forbidden to touch it. Can I still play football if I wear gloves?

1. Did they really do that in Biblical times?

2. In a sense, don't we enslave some of our immigrants by paying them low wages and neglecting their social safety net? In other words, some Americans find it profitable that these people come here because they are a hidden underclass of people to exploit.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
What is it with atheists trying to push their religion of non-religion down everyone's throats?

Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Let me ask you a question. The law of conservation of mass states that matter can not be created or destroyed, only rearranged. How did the universe come to be in the first place?

Thank you! I've never seen so many Atheist evangelists congregated into one area in my life. I can get along with just about everyone on these forums, but this is just annoying.

You guys want us to respect your right to not believe & stop trying to convert you. I agree with you. If God is in it, the conversation with be a two-way convo, not a one-way convo. However, you put other religions' evangelists to shame in your efforts to convert others to Atheism. JMHO

quote:

Thank you! I've never seen so many Atheist evangelists congregated into one area in my life. I can get along with just about everyone on these forums, but this is just annoying.

Whoa are these people anyway. Do you think some stranger on the Internet is going to change someone's religion? The region of our fathers and their fathers before them going back dozens of generations?

For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians. If you are maybe you would be better served by starting a local chapter of hair club for men.

<a href="http://graphjam.com/2008/06/16/song-chart-memes-god-vs-satan/"><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-1732" src="http://graphjam.wordpress.com/files/2008/06/funny-graphs-god-v-satan.jpg" alt="song chart memes" /></a><br />more <a href="http://graphjam.com">graph humor and song chart memes</a>

Hi to all,

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

If you truly believe there is a contradiction in the Bible as was originally suggested -- give us the specific verse, why it is a contradiction, and what you believe it is saying.

Don't just give us, "Well, they had slaves in the Old Testament; they would not eat pigs in the Old Testament; they sold their daughters in the Old Testament" -- give us specific verses or passages -- and where you believe there is a contradiction.

Keep in mind that a contradiction is when one verse of the Bible tells us one thing -- and another verse tells us the opposite. A contradiction is not, "Why did God allow that to happen?" That is not a contradiction -- that is a question.

Let's get back to Duck's original statement: "If you believe the Bible is the word of God, especially the New Testament, then how do you explain the contradictions? What do you do in the instance of a contradiction?"

If you have specific Scripture verses or passages -- specific contradictions -- then, let's talk about them. Otherwise, quite trying to confuse folks with innuendoes and allusions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

quote:

you put other religions' evangelists to shame in your efforts to convert others to Atheism. JMHO

My dear Joy,

There are many reasons to be more than suspicious of religions. Irrational thinking, hatred of those who don't see the proper light, superstition, discrimination, retrogressive morality, willful ignorance, interference with scientific and philosophical progress, clannishness, the adoration of death, and the propagation of unnecessary fear (especially among children) come to mind.

Still, if you want to play, go ahead, it used to be a free country, after all.

However, with vastly increased knowledge, freedom, courage, academic resources, and accurate histories, those of us who choose not to fool ourselves with ancient mythologies are no longer content to let religions continue their influence on society, which is entirely disproportionate to their positive impact.

To take an extreme example, look at those nutjobs in the Middle East. Islam is not the problem, religion is. They are absolutely poisoned with it. To the extent they are consumed by religion, they are dangerous and intolerant. Fanaticism is necessary when reason and reality fail to support a preferred belief.

The time is over when religion can demand respect in the absence of earning it. The time is over when faith and "belief" are necessarily considered good things.

There have always been atheists, and there will be lots more if we freethinkers remind people that they are free to choose how to organize their minds. They are free to accept reality, rather than having to "believe" something they know is not true. YOU, my dear, are free to shed the burden of your birth, the religion you were raised in. Not going to? OK, but you can, and that's the point.

It's OK to be an atheist. Atheism is not synonymous with evil. We're as far from satan as god. As you can see from this forum, there are lots of atheists. Also, as you can see, there are some convincing, compelling reasons for nonbelief. We are no longer content to exist in the shadow of religion, in quiet resentment that we risk our families, jobs, social standing, even lives for telling the truth that religion is a fairy tale.

That's all it is. All it's ever been. You can make one up tomorrow, just like L. Bob Dullard, and for the same reason: They're moneymakers, my friend. Just be sure to look good on TV and deliver a rap any circus barker could better, and you too can be rich, respected, and wrong.

We are among you, and we're not going away. By the way, I'm not really interested in signing up new atheists, they'll come along by themselves. If I were, however, I'd be just like our favorite forum preacher who will, no doubt, write about 1100 words on this very post.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Great you guys don't believe in God. That's apparently not enough for you since you want to turn the rest of the world into atheists too so we can be cool and join your little ghay club.

Dammit, guys. WHO RAN THEIR MOUTH and exposed the conspiracy? Loose lipses sinks shipses, people!

Bill wrote:

quote:

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

Bill,

The lineage Jesus in Matthew doesn't match the lineage of Jesus in Luke.

I 'll bet I can guess what happens next: You are going to say that one is the linage of Joseph and one is the linage of Mary. But that claim is not specified in the Bible, so your answer will depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely.

Muddy

quote:

Whoa are these people anyway. Do you think some stranger on the Internet is going to change someone's religion?

Yes Phoenix, I was raised a Christian, had my doubts, did my own research, listened to reason, got really honest with myself, and stopped believing in the make believe. It was a very difficult thing for me to accept, but can assure you that I am much happier in my beliefs now. Finding other folks on the Internet with the same doubts and questions was very helpful to me..

quote:

The religion of our fathers and their fathers before them going back dozens of generations?

That is why you believe as you do. If your father was a buddhist and his father was a buddhist, you would probably be buddhist. Tradition does not mean truth.

quote:

For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians. If you are maybe you would be better served by starting a local chapter of hair club for men.

Not very Christian things to say about people. But no, I have my hair, I'm not geeky, and I don't even know what GIS stands for.

Muddy

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
For all we know you guys are geeky, balding GIS graduates mascaraing as theologians.

Hi PR,

Why is a theologian qualified to answer any questions about life?

Best,

Gee, Duckbutt, you're definitely on the S*&# List in this forum now.

Elvis, for some of us, there is no list. I enjoy discussions with all of you except on this subject.

It's brought up on every freakin' thread. Believe it or not, we CAN discuss things without bringing our personal religious beliefs into EVERY discussion we have here on the forums & no, I'm not talking about this thread. DF, GF, whoever make some joke about religion(s) or Bill (you are the only one I can think of - I know you are not the only one) is making some joke about atheism. It is annoying, people. I'm not your mother & you are free to say what you want, but I am free to tell you it inhibits discussion, effectively ending a good one to beat a dead horse every time.

You will not change an Atheist into a Christian or a Christian into an Atheist on an anonymous forum, IF that's the point & maybe it's not. Maybe you just like making fun of others so that you can feel superior. It may make you FEEL that way, but in reality, it makes you less. JMHO

DF, you know I think the world of you & you are my buddy. So I'm going to be straight with you just like I would with any of my friends.

You may be an authority on Atheism (whether you want to be or not ), but you are not an authority on Christianity. You cannot speak on a relationship with Christ because you have never had a relationship with Christ. Those of us that have a REAL relationship with Christ know that you are speaking without knowledge and/or experience. The reason your reasoning (which I of course see as faulty) does not penetrate is that you'd have to wipe our memories clean in order to have any effect on our beliefs. We have huge life experiences that are all the proof we need. You guys are wasting your breath.

quote:

Originally posted by muddytoes20: Bill wrote:

quote:

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong.

Bill,

The lineage Jesus in Matthew doesn't match the lineage of Jesus in Luke.

I 'll bet I can guess what happens next: You are going to say that one is the lineage of Joseph and one is the lineage of Mary. But that claim is not specified in the Bible, so your answer will depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely.

Muddy

Hi Muddy,

Both the genealogies, Matthew and Luke are genealogies of Jesus -- but traced through both the maternal and the paternal lineages. In my own personal genealogy, when I traced through my father's paternal lineage I ended up in 1580 with a g-g-g-g-g-grandfather who was born in England, then relocated to Ireland where he later died. Yet, if I trace through my father's maternal lineage, I end up with a g-g-g-g-g-grandfather born in Ireland in 1600. Both are my legitimate genealogies; yet traced through different lineage paths. Now I have exposed the wee secret of me blarney!

Matthew and Luke do the same with the genealogies of Jesus. Yet, these two also look at the genealogies of Jesus from a cultural viewpoint.

So, in your question is about the two genealogies found in Matthew and Luke; these are the genealogies of Jesus Christ, the human Jesus -- seen from two different cultural viewpoints. Matthew looks at Jesus' genealogy, as we would expect, from the Jewish viewpoint, the lineage of the father. Matthew takes us from Abraham forward to Joseph, the husband of Mary. In the Jewish mind, this is the genealogy of Jesus -- traced through Joseph's lineage; even though Joseph was only the adoptive father of Jesus.

Luke takes a Gentile look at the genealogy of Jesus, just as we do genealogies today; looking backwards from Jesus, through Joseph, the step-father of Jesus. In this genealogy Joseph is called the "son of Eli" -- who was the biological father of Mary. This allowed Luke to trace through the lineage of Mary; yet conform to the Jewish legal custom of that day. This only means that Joseph was the "son of Levi" in the sense that he was the husband of Eli's daughter, Mary. Today we would just call him a son-in-law. This genealogy traces the human lineage of Jesus through the lineage of Mary, since she was the actual mother of the human side of Jesus -- and goes all the way back, through Seth, to Adam.

While Bible scholars and theologians will agree that neither genealogy is complete, that there are most likely gaps --- the main purpose of both is to show the genealogy of Jesus Christ from both the Jewish and the Gentile cultural viewpoints. So, in that respect, there is no discrepancy.

Does my answer, as you say, "depend on scholarly conjecture external to the scriptures on which you claim to solely rely."

No. It is clear in the Bible that Matthew is a Jew. His name was originally Levi, but was changed to Matthew after he began to follow Jesus. His Gospel was written for the Jewish believers; based in Jewish culture. In this culture; one would always start with Abraham, a gentile whose lineage bore the first Jew, Judah -- and comes forward.

On the other hand, Luke was a Greek, a gentile -- and his approach, just as ours today, would be the gentile approach -- start from today and trace backward as far as possible. As I said, I traced my paternal grandfather back to England/Ireland in 1580. Luke went all the way back to Adam for Jesus' genealogy.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all,

Throughout this discussion, I have seen nothing but innuendoes and posting of URLs to what "others" say. Not one of you, in your own words, have given us a specific Scripture verse or passage -- and shown it to be a contradiction or wrong. You all are just blowing smoke from the wrong end.

Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me.

In Sunday school one year I learned that the Bible says "an eye for an eye". Another year I learned that the Bible says "turn the other cheek".

And that is just the beginning. If I read one version of the Bible there is mention of the Holy Spirit, but in a very popular version there is the Holy Ghost. Hmmmm......

These things happen when men start with a copy of a copy of a copy and then pick and choose and then edit, edit, edit writings that are most often originally by non-witnesses of events.

Have a Blissed day, Bill.

Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived desceptancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

We are among you, and we're not going away.

That has to be the most ominous statement I have ever read on this wacko forum. DF, you sound like you are a Big Brother organization waiting to take down the Christians. Also, by your interpertation, Christians are ignorant, mindless, foolish, fearful individuals who have no independent thought.
AND you wonder why 'preaching' atheists are not accepted?

My original post was partly with humor in mind but those examples I cited do represent real contradictions to any view of a deity as loving, compassionate, and edifying. Frankly, the Old Testament God was a hardliner! Very clearly, if you look at the Bible as a whole there are problems.

Bill Gray, you seem to have a problem with my screen name. If I were to tell you that it's a nickname for a type of twin-engined amphibuous plane, would that soothe your squeamishness?

What is everybody so afraid of? Is this why some people concoct theologically dubious ideas as the Rapture and the Tribulation?

Here's a religious-oriented song for you:

In my opinion, a perfectly beautiful religious song expressing sentiments beautifully is "Dropkick me Jesus Through the Goalposts of Life." Bobby Bare manages to be both humorous and sincere in what possibly is the only example of a religious football waltz. Just go to this site:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SO5Y1OuQIxo

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived desceptancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.

So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendos?

Have a blissed and senile day, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by littlemeanmama:
Also, by your interpertation, Christians are ignorant, mindless, foolish, fearful individuals who have no independent thought.

I won't speak for DF, but I apply these traits to the literal Bible, young earth, ID fundamentalists.

What Crusty said.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi Crusty,

You loudly declare that there are discrepancies in the Bible; then you ask me, "Bill, I'm sure you know the verses better than me, so why don't you post 'em for me."

Well, duh! If you decide to rob a bank -- will you ask the security guard to hold your gun for you -- while you pick up the money?

Either you know the Bible well enough to make these claims -- or you are just parroting what you have heard from equally unknowledgeable atheists.

Give me specific Scripture verses or passages where you have found discrepancies, or perceived discrepancies, and I will respond with specific answers.

Give me innuendoes and "they said" allusions -- and I will find a more productive posts where I can respond and share the Gospel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.

So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendoes?

Have a blissed and senile day, Bill.

Hi Crusty,

If you are claiming that there is a discrepancy in the Bible; then you must know the verse. Otherwise, how can you state that there is a discrepancy when you do not even know the Scripture verse? Don't tell me what you have heard from others. Find a specific Scripture verse or passage --- tell that to me -- then tell me why you think it is wrong. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

You cannot declare that a verse if wrong if you do not even know where to find the verse.

If your Sunday School teacher taught you the verses -- then you should be able to give me that information. That is like telling someone, "You gave me the wrong address."

They ask you, "What address did I give you?"

And, all you can tell them is, "I don't know what address you gave me -- but, I know it is wrong." Well, duh!

Crusty, if we are going to have a dialogue -- let's make it two sided. Show me a specific discrepancy; then, let's talk. And, please do not wait around, hoping someone else will come up with a verse -- and then you can say, "Yeah. That one."

If you make a claim; back it with specifics.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
What Crusty said.

DF

Not so fast DF. You do have more disdain for the Creationists and ID fundamentalists but you have repeatedly siad any one who believes in God is ignorant. You even told Joy to 'play' along.
"""those of us who choose not to fool ourselves with ancient mythologies are no longer content to let religions continue their influence on society, which is entirely disproportionate to their positive impact."""