When did I say that christians are necessarily ignorant?
DF
Every post of yours always implies it if not stated out right. However, Fish does seem to go a little further.
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
I'm very curious where I even implied that all christians are ignorant. So, give me one example, please.
DF
DF
Here is one of many DF. You have thousands so it is hard to give a complete list. Just type in the word 'ignorant' or 'ignorance' as I did and see what pops up. You may be surprised your self.
"""You should not. The two are different discussions. Evolution is science, backed up by mountains of evidence and a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis.
If you are really convinced that Christianity is antithetical to evolution, then you should insist that every high school student learn the Theory of Evolution, so that they will know and understand that with which you would have them disagree. Or would you prefer them to remain ignorant? Decide!
You would have them remain ignorant of real, demonstrable science in order to maintain the falsehood of your dogmatic superstition. Shame on you.""" DF
PS:When did I say that christians are necessarily ignorant? Nice try at qualifying by adding 'necessarily'
"""You should not. The two are different discussions. Evolution is science, backed up by mountains of evidence and a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis.
If you are really convinced that Christianity is antithetical to evolution, then you should insist that every high school student learn the Theory of Evolution, so that they will know and understand that with which you would have them disagree. Or would you prefer them to remain ignorant? Decide!
You would have them remain ignorant of real, demonstrable science in order to maintain the falsehood of your dogmatic superstition. Shame on you.""" DF
PS:When did I say that christians are necessarily ignorant? Nice try at qualifying by adding 'necessarily'
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
If you make a claim; back it with specifics.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Okay, Bill. I'll play by your rules.
Exodus 21:23-25
23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Leviticus 24:19-21
19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.
Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
So, Bill. There's the conflicting verses I was referring to, and these aren't the only ones, we both know it, and I'm way too lazy to become the Bible scholar it requires to even begin to listing all the problems. I'm sure you can type paragraphs and paragraphs of inanity explaining why these aren't discrepancies. And I know you think you've played some kind of trick on me to actually do a little homework. Don't flatter yourself, you are an amateur when it comes to psychological manipulation.
But there you have it, Bill just one of the many problems with the Bible.
Have a wonderful and blissed day, Bill.
The first two verses are from the OT. The conflicting one is from the NT. Except for the OT laws that Jesus reaffirmed, we go by the NT teachings, not OT. That's why it conflicts.
meanie,
Sorry, but you failed to show me. The quote of mine you provided referred to the ignorance of evolution. The lack of knowledge of it, which is ignorance. I did not say that christians are ignorant.
You see, creationism is not the default fallback alternative to evolution. It has to prove itself worthy of being respected as a scientific position, and it has failed magnificently.
Christians are not necessarily ignorant, but Creationists are.
DF
Sorry, but you failed to show me. The quote of mine you provided referred to the ignorance of evolution. The lack of knowledge of it, which is ignorance. I did not say that christians are ignorant.
You see, creationism is not the default fallback alternative to evolution. It has to prove itself worthy of being respected as a scientific position, and it has failed magnificently.
Christians are not necessarily ignorant, but Creationists are.
DF
OK, this one has nothing to do with evolution DF. You are still acting superior.
''''Tac, if you believe in a sky god who breathed life into a pile of dirt, rather than sound science, then I am hardly the "fool" in this conversation.
I'm sorry if science challenges your religion. I know you have invested your sense of reality into it for a long time, and any challenge to that is a challenge to your sensibilities. It would take a big person to come to a conclusion that reality is not what one envisioned, what one has always accepted it to be, and there are very few Big People.
Human progress is seldom made by common opinion, but by a small committee of Big People.'''
''''Tac, if you believe in a sky god who breathed life into a pile of dirt, rather than sound science, then I am hardly the "fool" in this conversation.
I'm sorry if science challenges your religion. I know you have invested your sense of reality into it for a long time, and any challenge to that is a challenge to your sensibilities. It would take a big person to come to a conclusion that reality is not what one envisioned, what one has always accepted it to be, and there are very few Big People.
Human progress is seldom made by common opinion, but by a small committee of Big People.'''
I'm not acting.
Tac had called me a fool for not believing in an imaginary sky god who intervenes in the outcome of high school football games, or some such nonsense, yet has never cured an amputee.
And I stand by my statements. However, that does not make christians necessarily ignorant.
Come on, show me where I have said christians are categorically ignorant.
DF
Tac had called me a fool for not believing in an imaginary sky god who intervenes in the outcome of high school football games, or some such nonsense, yet has never cured an amputee.
And I stand by my statements. However, that does not make christians necessarily ignorant.
Come on, show me where I have said christians are categorically ignorant.
DF
Now you are saying YOU are Superior???
Im done with this IDIOTCY.
Im done with this IDIOTCY.
quote:Im done with this IDIOTCY.
um.....
DF
quote:Well, duh, Bill. Your reading comprehension fails you once again.
So I will repeat. An eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. No atheists taught me these, but my Sunday school teachers did. You are telling me that these aren't in the Bible? Innuendos?
Not to speak for Bill but rather as an opinion on your mention of the verses listing them as a conflict.
quote:Exodus 21:23-25
23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Leviticus 24:19-21
19 "If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 "Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death.
Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
So, Bill. There's the conflicting verses I was referring to, and these aren't the only ones, we both know it, and I'm way too lazy to become the Bible scholar it requires to even begin to listing all the problems. I'm sure you can type paragraphs and paragraphs of inanity explaining why these aren't discrepancies. And I know you think you've played some kind of trick on me to actually do a little homework. Don't flatter yourself, you are an amateur when it comes to psychological manipulation.
Not to attempt to answer for Bill but rather to address the statement that this is a conflict. On the surface it would appear to be so, especially if the verses were in the same context, written by the same person. There are Sections of the Bible that apply to specific people and groups of people and at specific times for specific purposes and not to other groups of people. Some laws or covenants were between God and the Jewish people and not intended for Gentiles (non-Jews). This also would seemingly be conflicting on the surface if all you heard was specific verses stuck up against each other yet totally out of context. The specific verses you mentioned in Exodus are part of many that Moses gave to the people of Israel, the Jews" and were, on through Leviticus laws were amplified and expanded upon. Take Exodus 31 and the Sabbath (Saturday)
Exodus 31:12-17 (New International Version)
31:12 Then the LORD said to Moses,
13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 "'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.
15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'"
This was a covenant between Israel and God yet many see the Sabbath as a conflict when it comes to the New Testament in fact the Pharisees blamed Christ for violating the Sabbath but Christ clarified the Sabbath there was no Conflict.
Regarding Matthew 5;39 I'll quote directly from "The Bible Knowledge Commentary" on these verses:
"Matthew 5:38-42 (Luke 6:29-30). The words Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth come from several Old Testament passages (Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21); they are called the lex talionis, the law of retaliation. This law was given to protect the innocent and to make sure retaliation did not occur beyond the offense. Jesus pointed out, however, that while the rights of the innocent were protected by the Law, the righteous need not necessarily claim their rights. A righteous man would be characterized by humility and selflessness. Instead he might go “the extra mile” to maintain peace. When wronged by being struck on a cheek, or sued for his tunic (undergarment; a cloak was the outer garment), or forced to travel with someone a mile, he would not strike back, demand repayment, or refuse to comply. Instead of retaliating he would do the opposite, and would also commit his case to the Lord who will one day set all things in order (cf. Rom. 12:17-21). This was seen to its greatest extent in the life of the Lord Jesus Himself, as Peter explained (1 Peter 2:23).
— Bible Knowledge Commentary"
Jesus Christ introduce not only the "New" Covenant which didn't do away with the Law and Laws of the past but clarified them as told in Romans 6 & 7. What appears many times as conflicts are not but rather totally separate topics and to realize that means digging in and understanding the context in which each verse was not only written but placed within, to whom was it written and what purpose?
quote:Sorry, but you failed to show me. The quote of mine you provided referred to the ignorance of evolution. The lack of knowledge of it, which is ignorance. I did not say that Christians are ignorant.
And I have never, ever called all Christians ignorant. I used to be one. I understand what and how they feel.
I have distilled all the religion debates we have here into two categories:
1: Should the bible be used as a foundation for all moral values?
2: Should the bible be used as a valid scientific reference manual?
The current discussion touches a little on each.
The more affirmative your answer is to either these questions, the higher degree of ignorance.
Meanie, I do not recall a single instance where Deep, I and other non believers have called you ignorant or stupid. You most certainly are not. Our vehemence is generally directed at only those who would hold the bible as literal science or a yard stick for morality. Bill Gray is the worst of these willfully ignorant people but you know who the others are.
And those "others" are not you, friend, but you often put yourself in the line of fire.
'''called me a fool for not believing in an imaginary sky god''''
'''that does not make christians necessarily ignorant'''
posting as Jesus H Christ.
These things bother me Fish. You and Deep may not believe all Christians are ignorant but these types of things get under my skin. I'm not even a "Go to Church every Sunday person" but to ridicule belief in God and to demean Him by refusing to even use capitals letters just hits me the wrong way. I admit I lost my temper with DF. It was a long day and he got the brunt of my anger. My apologies. To assume that you can tell me why my faith is wrong is to assume that you are an omnipotent being. You cannot look into my soul or see my life from the inside. I do not agree with Mr. Gray on his fundamentalist's attitudes but he is free to believe how he wishes. I cannot ignore evolutionary evidence but it does not contradict Biblical stories. God could have very easily created the "Big Bang". I also do not discredit other religious beliefs. How do I know whether God appeared as Budda or Zeus or Thor? That will make the fundamentalists angry with me but I'm used to it. I guess this rambling is to say that if you ridicule a person's belief, no matter what is it, it is offensive. I also believe in ghosts and re-incarnation which will really gets things hot.
So if I jump in the line of fire, my ancestors made me do it.
'''that does not make christians necessarily ignorant'''
posting as Jesus H Christ.
These things bother me Fish. You and Deep may not believe all Christians are ignorant but these types of things get under my skin. I'm not even a "Go to Church every Sunday person" but to ridicule belief in God and to demean Him by refusing to even use capitals letters just hits me the wrong way. I admit I lost my temper with DF. It was a long day and he got the brunt of my anger. My apologies. To assume that you can tell me why my faith is wrong is to assume that you are an omnipotent being. You cannot look into my soul or see my life from the inside. I do not agree with Mr. Gray on his fundamentalist's attitudes but he is free to believe how he wishes. I cannot ignore evolutionary evidence but it does not contradict Biblical stories. God could have very easily created the "Big Bang". I also do not discredit other religious beliefs. How do I know whether God appeared as Budda or Zeus or Thor? That will make the fundamentalists angry with me but I'm used to it. I guess this rambling is to say that if you ridicule a person's belief, no matter what is it, it is offensive. I also believe in ghosts and re-incarnation which will really gets things hot.
So if I jump in the line of fire, my ancestors made me do it.
quote:You and Deep may not believe all Christians are ignorant but these types of things get under my skin.
I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.
I'm sure you will also understand how offended I am when stupid people constantly inform me that me (and, by reference, members of my family) are going to be condemned by a man in the sky and tortured for eternity no mater how moral we strive to be. I am sure you will understand how I feel when I am forced to obey your team's commandment that I not enjoy an adult beverage the day AFTER the sabbath. I am sure you will understand how offended I am that your team peeks in the bedroom door of consenting adults in an effort to withhold inalienable rights from good Americans. I know you understand how offensive it is for male fundies to poke their nose in your uterus and tell you what can and cannot grow there.
The rights of those who lack belief in the supernatural are under constant assault in nearly every facet of our daily lives. We are are forced to cower in these forums out of fear for our reputations and even our lives (Christians can be violent when intellectually challenged, you know). So, I understand how you feel, Meanie, but you only have to put up with it here on these forums.
I will never condemn you or anyone for anything, I am not God and that is not my place.
I enjoy an adult beverage before, during, and after the Sabbath. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking.
I may not have the assault against my faith (or lack of) that you do, but we all have things that cause grief or shame in public. One of my children has a personality disorder. K has problems with groups and making decisions. K sees a psychiatrist. Try telling people your kid goes to a shrink and watch what happens. They either look at you in shock or make excuses to leave quickly. One of my 'friends' would not even invite K to birthday parties because she 'has a problem'. I learned to deal with it over time. If people cannot accept you as you are, who cares? If you told me right now what business you own, it would make no difference to me that you're atheist. I don't ask my doctor what religion he is or my garbage man, its private and personal and nobody's business but yours. I do believe a person can be moral without being a Christian, but that's just my own interpretation. People who pass judgment will face their own of some kind one day. I do hope and pray that I pass.
I enjoy an adult beverage before, during, and after the Sabbath. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking.
I may not have the assault against my faith (or lack of) that you do, but we all have things that cause grief or shame in public. One of my children has a personality disorder. K has problems with groups and making decisions. K sees a psychiatrist. Try telling people your kid goes to a shrink and watch what happens. They either look at you in shock or make excuses to leave quickly. One of my 'friends' would not even invite K to birthday parties because she 'has a problem'. I learned to deal with it over time. If people cannot accept you as you are, who cares? If you told me right now what business you own, it would make no difference to me that you're atheist. I don't ask my doctor what religion he is or my garbage man, its private and personal and nobody's business but yours. I do believe a person can be moral without being a Christian, but that's just my own interpretation. People who pass judgment will face their own of some kind one day. I do hope and pray that I pass.
quote:I will never condemn you or anyone for anything, I am not God and that is not my place.
And I know you would not and have not. I could say that for the vast majority of the believers here.
I am very glad to see the likes of you and Nash combating the ignorance of those that speak with willful ignorance, unabashed pride and pretend to have the powers of judgment.
Yeah, you, Bill.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.
GoFish, I think you love to argue & are a bit ornery and/or direct at times, but you are basically a good person and FWIW I like you. Having said that, in order to have been one of us, or one of me
, and now believe as you do, you would have to have amnesia. It is impossible to experience a real relationship with Christ & believe as you do today. I'm sure you went through the motions of church ritual & tried your best in your own power to make it work. Your best efforts won't save you or reconcile you to God. Thus, Jesus. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is "LORD". If you explore that word, you will find where most people miss the boat. He cannot be Lord unless you surrender - His power, not our power - His will, not our will.
You won't get to know a God of your choosing that fits into your idea what what He should be. THAT would be a book of fiction born out of human imagination, pride & perhaps fear. God is who 'He' says He is. JMHO
quote:Originally posted by NashBama:
The first two verses are from the OT. The conflicting one is from the NT. Except for the OT laws that Jesus reaffirmed, we go by the NT teachings, not OT. That's why it conflicts.
Ah, so the Bible isn't the literal Word of God? Or is it that only half of the Bible is literal? Now I'm confused. There are conflicts? You say there are, but they aren't? Why didn't God edit the OT so there wasn't a conlfict? God changed his mind?
quote:God changed his mind?
CrustyMac,
The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.
Muddy
quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:quote:Originally posted by GoFish:
I understand. Really, I do. I was once one of you.
GoFish, I think you love to argue & are a bit ornery and/or direct at times, but you are basically a good person and FWIW I like you. Having said that, in order to have been one of us, or one of me
Hello Joy,
I would believe Fish at his word. I would also believe you at your word that you are a Christian. There quite a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics. A few examples off the top of my head Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, and Matt Dillahunty.
Did you say, in effect, that for a Christian to become an atheist would require amnesia?
I try to take people at their word when it comes to what they label themselves as until I find evidence otherwise.
Best regards,
Micah, I also take GoFish at his word. He honestly believes that what he had is all there is. He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. For me to be an Atheist would require amnesia. Therefore, if he is one of us or one of me, that is exactly what it would require.
quote:Originally posted by muddytoes20:quote:God changed his mind?
CrustyMac,
The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.
Muddy
i don't usually, but i'm laughing out loud at that one, muddy!
quote:Originally posted by muddytoes20:quote:God changed his mind?
CrustyMac,
The Old and New Testament was originally called Plan A and Plan B.
Muddy
If somebody had explained it that way to begin with I'd have reached a state of unobstructed enlightenment. Wow! It all makes sense now. Thanks.
Crusty... Be HEE-alled in the A and the B.
DF
DF
quote:Originally posted by gbrk:
Not to speak for Bill but rather as an opinion on your mention of the verses listing them as a conflict.
Your enlightened response would never be mistaken for Bill's usual hypocritical diatribes.
dialectic, I understand what you are saying & appreciate you sharing your experience, but what I replied to was GoFish saying that he was one of us. He was never one of me. God did for me something that no human being, including myself, on earth could do. He healed pain that I didn't think could be removed & made me whole for the first time that I could ever remember, didn't even know what whole was before that. You can not see inside my memory in order for me to prove that, but I stand by what I said. In order for GoFish to be one of me & be an Atheist, his memory would have to be erased.
quote:Originally posted by DeepFat:
Crusty... Be HEE-alled in the A and the B.
DF
I'm thinking more along the lines of some penne, a white wine sauce, a greek salad, and a little white wine. That should cure what ails me.
I see you are a convert to The One True Religion..... go with pasta.
DF
DF
Hi Micah,
You say, "Hello Joy, I would believe Fish at his word. I would also believe you at your word that you are a Christian. There quite a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics. A few examples off the top of my head Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, and Matt Dillahunty."
When you say that you know "a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics" -- by what criteria are you declaring these people to be faithful Christian believers? You might tell me, "I take their word for it" -- and possibly that is sufficient for the secular world. But, in the Christian world, that does not fly -- for I have seen many supposed Christians and even Christian preachers who I seriously doubt even know how to spell "believer." Many wear the Christian hat -- but, are Christians in name only.
No, my Friend, just because a person tells you he is a believer -- does not make it true. One of the best examples is Charles Templeton, a great evangelist in the 1940s, doing great crusades -- and helping Billy Graham get started. Yes, he taught the Word, intellectually he taught the Word -- but did he himself believe the Word? Obviously he did not; for in the late 1940s he enrolled in Princeton Theological Seminary -- one of the most Liberal of all seminaries -- in an attempt to learn the Word. But, going to an extremely liberal seminary to learn the Word -- is like the fat lady who goes to Baskin-Robbins to lose weight.
We are told of Templeton at http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/unbelief.asp :
Templeton warned (Billy) Graham that it was ‘intellectual suicide’ to not question the Bible and to go on preaching God’s Word as authoritative. With this background of doubt about God’s Word welling up inside, and lacking any type of formal education, he decided to pursue a degree in theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. Resigning from the church he had pastored for several years, Templeton began, with special permission, his course work at Princeton in 1948.[/b]
And, you might tell me, "But, Bill, look how successful Templeton was in his crusades; leading many to faith in Jesus Christ. Doesn't this show that he was a true believer?" No. It just shows that he intellectually knew the right words and knew the Bible well. Hey, many atheists know the Bible as well, or better, than many Christians. But, that does not make them believers.
Then, how about all those folks who were saved at the Templeton Crusades?
First, let me say that neither Charles Templeton, Billy Graham, nor Bill Gray saves anyone. The Holy Spirit does all the harvesting of souls. We who share the Word only plant the seeds that the Holy Spirit harvests. Have you ever watched an illiterate farmer sow seeds in his cotton field? He sows the seeds; the Lord brings the harvest to him -- and the Holy Spirit brings the harvest of souls.
And, yes, all those folks who truly received Jesus Christ at a Templeton Crusade were saved and has His promise of eternal life.
Micah, I realize that responding to you by quoting the Bible, in your mind, is circular reasoning. But, since I am not writing for your benefit -- but, for the many other Forum Friends who are Christian believers and those Forum Friends who might be seeking -- I will stick to the only true authority we have in this world -- the Bible.
In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus Himself tells us, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."
I do believe He was speaking of people such as you mentioned -- and folks like Charles Templeton. By the way, Templeton died of Alzheimer’s disease; so one might wonder just how long this had been affecting his thinking.
In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus continues by telling us how He will respond to such wolves in sheep's clothing, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
Micah, you may say, "I try to take people at their word when it comes to what they label themselves as until I find evidence otherwise."
And that is admirable; but, not a true indicator. No, Micah, we truly cannot assume that one is a Christian believer just because he makes the claim. His life has to reflect Jesus Christ, truly reflect Him -- and not just speak intellectually about Him.
I can believe you are an atheist; for that is easy to discern. When you declare that you do not believe that God exists; you have labeled yourself. However, when a person tells me he is following Jesus; I expect to see fruit of that Christian walk -- and not just intellectual jargon.
Micah, thank you for this opportunity to share the truth with all of our Forum Friends.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
You say, "Hello Joy, I would believe Fish at his word. I would also believe you at your word that you are a Christian. There quite a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics. A few examples off the top of my head Dan Barker, Robert M. Price, and Matt Dillahunty."
When you say that you know "a few people who were extremely faithful who became atheists or agnostics" -- by what criteria are you declaring these people to be faithful Christian believers? You might tell me, "I take their word for it" -- and possibly that is sufficient for the secular world. But, in the Christian world, that does not fly -- for I have seen many supposed Christians and even Christian preachers who I seriously doubt even know how to spell "believer." Many wear the Christian hat -- but, are Christians in name only.
No, my Friend, just because a person tells you he is a believer -- does not make it true. One of the best examples is Charles Templeton, a great evangelist in the 1940s, doing great crusades -- and helping Billy Graham get started. Yes, he taught the Word, intellectually he taught the Word -- but did he himself believe the Word? Obviously he did not; for in the late 1940s he enrolled in Princeton Theological Seminary -- one of the most Liberal of all seminaries -- in an attempt to learn the Word. But, going to an extremely liberal seminary to learn the Word -- is like the fat lady who goes to Baskin-Robbins to lose weight.
We are told of Templeton at http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i3/unbelief.asp :
Templeton warned (Billy) Graham that it was ‘intellectual suicide’ to not question the Bible and to go on preaching God’s Word as authoritative. With this background of doubt about God’s Word welling up inside, and lacking any type of formal education, he decided to pursue a degree in theology at Princeton Theological Seminary. Resigning from the church he had pastored for several years, Templeton began, with special permission, his course work at Princeton in 1948.[/b]
And, you might tell me, "But, Bill, look how successful Templeton was in his crusades; leading many to faith in Jesus Christ. Doesn't this show that he was a true believer?" No. It just shows that he intellectually knew the right words and knew the Bible well. Hey, many atheists know the Bible as well, or better, than many Christians. But, that does not make them believers.
Then, how about all those folks who were saved at the Templeton Crusades?
First, let me say that neither Charles Templeton, Billy Graham, nor Bill Gray saves anyone. The Holy Spirit does all the harvesting of souls. We who share the Word only plant the seeds that the Holy Spirit harvests. Have you ever watched an illiterate farmer sow seeds in his cotton field? He sows the seeds; the Lord brings the harvest to him -- and the Holy Spirit brings the harvest of souls.
And, yes, all those folks who truly received Jesus Christ at a Templeton Crusade were saved and has His promise of eternal life.
Micah, I realize that responding to you by quoting the Bible, in your mind, is circular reasoning. But, since I am not writing for your benefit -- but, for the many other Forum Friends who are Christian believers and those Forum Friends who might be seeking -- I will stick to the only true authority we have in this world -- the Bible.
In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus Himself tells us, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits."
I do believe He was speaking of people such as you mentioned -- and folks like Charles Templeton. By the way, Templeton died of Alzheimer’s disease; so one might wonder just how long this had been affecting his thinking.
In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus continues by telling us how He will respond to such wolves in sheep's clothing, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
Micah, you may say, "I try to take people at their word when it comes to what they label themselves as until I find evidence otherwise."
And that is admirable; but, not a true indicator. No, Micah, we truly cannot assume that one is a Christian believer just because he makes the claim. His life has to reflect Jesus Christ, truly reflect Him -- and not just speak intellectually about Him.
I can believe you are an atheist; for that is easy to discern. When you declare that you do not believe that God exists; you have labeled yourself. However, when a person tells me he is following Jesus; I expect to see fruit of that Christian walk -- and not just intellectual jargon.
Micah, thank you for this opportunity to share the truth with all of our Forum Friends.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!
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quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. .
I let ya slide the first time, Joy but I gotta tell you: I find this statement incredibly offensive.
How can you possibly know what was in my head back then? Yes, my beliefs were complicated, I had doubts and questions like everyone else but I DID feel the stirrings of God in my heart. Especially during a powerful hymn or after reaching the summit of a mountain or looking in my boy's eyes for the first time, hell, every time. I prayed fervently and was devoted to my church. I prayed The Prayer to ask Jesus into my heart a million times with great sincerity.
It is difficult to imagine you having the audacity to tell me I could not have thought what I so clearly thought.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:Originally posted by _Joy_:
He said he was once one of us. That is impossible. .
I let ya slide the first time, Joy but I gotta tell you: I find this statement incredibly offensive.
How can you possibly know what was in my head back then? Yes, my beliefs were complicated, I had doubts and questions like everyone else but I DID feel the stirrings of God in my heart. Especially during a powerful hymn or after reaching the summit of a mountain or looking in my boy's eyes for the first time, hell, every time. I prayed fervently and was devoted to my church. I prayed The Prayer to ask Jesus into my heart a million times with great sincerity.
It is difficult to imagine you having the audacity to tell me I could not have thought what I so clearly thought.
What in the WORLD, would cause you to turn away from The promise of God?
Fish, I know that you and I do differ quite a lot on this forum but I can't help but see from your statement above that you still may have a small piece of God left in your heart. What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?
I tell you what, if you live here in North Alabama then I will show you my Christian friendship. I invite you to church. Muscle Shoals First Assembly of God would love to have you attend. Faith Church in Florence would love you to attend. The River Chruch in St. Florene would love yo to attend. Oak Grove Methodist Chruch would love to have you attend in Moulton, Decatur Christian Fellowship would love for you to attend, New Beginnings of Flroence would love for you to attend, Florence First Assembly of God would love you to attend. There are so many churches here in North Alabam that would love you to attend.
I will come by your place and pick you up and we can attend any Christian Church in North Alabam together. Just p.m me and let me know. I am here for you, Jesus is here for you. You still have the same opportunities you once had. It is never to late until you are gone.
God bless,
quote:What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?
I'm what you call a "lost soul" Bray. My eyes have been opened to the truth. I am now able to think critically about the feelings and emotions I once had and admitted to myself that I was fooling myself for nearly my entire life.
You are well meaning but deluded, Bray. I do not want to be preached to by you. My soul does not need saving. It is people like you, Bill Gray and my own preachers whose closed minds and crazy assertions allowed me to see the light of reason.
The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.
But thanks, anyway.
quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:What would it take for you to believe once again? Do you need a miracle to spark your beliefs in God? Do you need an over whelming experience to feel His love again?
I'm what you call a "lost soul" Bray. My eyes have been opened to the truth. I am now able to think critically about the feelings and emotions I once had and admitted to myself that I was fooling myself for nearly my entire life.
You are well meaning but deluded, Bray. I do not want to be preached to by you. My soul does not need saving. It is people like you, Bill Gray and my own preachers whose closed minds and crazy assertions allowed me to see the light of reason.
The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.
But thanks, anyway.
------------------------------------------------
O.K.
Is what I said really that difficult to understand or are you guys just simply seeing what you want to see? GoFish, you claim to have been one of us. So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole? You have, after all, been exactly where I've been but have since been enlightened, right? No, you have not had the same experiences that I have. To turn away from God after that would be insane and you are not insane. JMHO
quote:The likelihood of me ever becoming a believer in ANYTHING supernatural is exactly the same as you re-believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.
Be careful now! Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny very much exist. The real question is to whom do they exist? If you ask the right people you will certainly get the right answer, that yes Santa does exist for he brings me toys each year so the question of if something exist or not, I would suggest, depends on perspective.
quote:So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole?
Dear Joy, I have never been "broken." I have never been less than I am now. I know that kind of talk makes sense to you but it has absolutely no meaning to me.
I was a deist. It really is as simple and as as complex as that. I believed in God but didn't accept much of the preacher's dogma. You would have (may have?) called me your brother and I would have embraced you as my sister - perhaps not "in Christ" but in similar beliefs.
But make no mistake, Joy, I was a believer.
Hi Fish,quote:Originally posted by GoFish:quote:So tell me, how amazing was it when God healed you and made you whole?
Dear Joy, I have never been "broken." I have never been less than I am now. I know that kind of talk makes sense to you but it has absolutely no meaning to me.
I was a deist. It really is as simple and as as complex as that. I believed in God but didn't accept much of the preacher's dogma. You would have (may have?) called me your brother and I would have embraced you as my sister - perhaps not "in Christ" but in similar beliefs.
But make no mistake, Joy, I was a believer.
You may have been an "intellectual" believer -- but, I doubt very seriously if you were a "spiritual" believer. For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.
And, the fact that you claim to have been a deist is proof of that. What is deism? According to Wikipedia:
Deism is the belief that a supreme god exists and created the physical universe, but does not intervene in its normal operation. It is related to a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason.
In other words, a deist is one who "intellectually" believes there is a god, but not necessarily God. So, by your own words, you were not a Christian believer, but an intellectual deist. For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.
You may claim that you have never been "broken." However, given the fact that all humans were created as triune beings: body, soul, and spirit -- and then, with the fall of Adam into the sin of disobedience, that "spirit" connection with God was lost -- we all can be considered "broken.'
However, God has given all of us a way to be "repaired" or redeemed. He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross so that you, Joy, I, and everyone else will have an opportunity to accept His free gift of salvation and be "repaired."
I do pray that one day you will open you eyes, and your heart -- and see the real Truth; that you are lost without Him.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.
...For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.
And there it is.
YOU presume to know what was in MY heart and mind. The miracles Joy has seen must be greater than the miracles I've seen, her experiences more profound, her transformation more marked. Because you people know exactly what degree of change or growth I'm capable of.
You're both afraid to believe that a person could experience the profound feeling of connection with God that you do and then come to understand what caused it, because it might mean the foundation for your beliefs is less spiritual. I suspect you'll keep right on being the know-it-alls that you are, but I'll tell you anyway... People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else.
To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs. I'm not even asking anyone to knock down that wall, but denying that anyone has seen both sides is close-minded, and to me, a bit dishonest.
Hi Dialectic,quote:Originally posted by dialectic.:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
...For, I do not believe that anyone, who has truly walked with the Lord, can turn away from Him.
...For that same reason, neither Joy, nor any other Christian believer, could have ever called you "brother" in the Biblical sense.
And there it is.
YOU presume to know what was in MY heart and mind. The miracles Joy has seen must be greater than the miracles I've seen, her experiences more profound, her transformation more marked. Because you people know exactly what degree of change or growth I'm capable of.
You're both afraid to believe that a person could experience the profound feeling of connection with God that you do and then come to understand what caused it, because it might mean the foundation for your beliefs is less spiritual. I suspect you'll keep right on being the know-it-alls that you are, but I'll tell you anyway... People of faith no less complete yours, people who have experienced the "love of God", have confided and trusted in him, have been touched, changed, and healed by "his power"... SOME of these people have discovered something else.
To insist that they "could have never been" where you are, just shows the wall your hiding behind to protect your own beliefs. I'm not even asking anyone to knock down that wall, but denying that anyone has seen both sides is close-minded, and to me, a bit dishonest.
Where did you come from? I was addressing Fish's comment to Joy. I have no idea where you stand with the Lord. But, Fish tells us he was a deist -- and that is not a Christian believer.
If you are going to jump into the middle of a discussion -- please do not come in firing from both barrels.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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