Rapture, Second Coming? - What Are They And When Will They Occur?

Hi to all my Forum Friends,

Several days ago, a Religion Forum Friend began a new discussion titled "The Rapture And The Second Coming" -- with the implied question, "I got some friends say that there is no such thing as the Rapture, that it is not mention in the Bible.  But the Second Coming is (mentioned)."

And, I reply:

The Rapture of the church, the worldwide body of believers -- and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are totally separate events, separated by a seven year period called the Tribulation.   At the Rapture, Christ will not return to earth; but believers will be "caught up. . . in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Then, I post four End Times charts with this comment:

Maybe these End Times Charts will help clear up some issues about what will happen and when.  I began seriously studying the End Times prophecies about 22 years ago (1991) -- and about ten years ago I began to create these charts.  Over the years following, as I have gained more insight, the charts have evolved (forgive the pun).  What I present today I believe to be Biblically accurate.  You will notice that i do give Scripture references.  I pray these are helpful.

I have posted those same charts below.  If anyone does see an error, or what you believe to be an error -- please point this out to me and let's discuss it.

Then, a Christian Forum Friend who believes in a PreWrath Rapture of the church instead of a PreTribulation Rapture, tells me, "Your charts may be helpful to you.  But, I've looked over them and frankly there are some liberties taken in applying certain Scriptures to the charts.  You and I know that any person can pick and chose -- and post just about any Scripture out of it's original context, and attempt to make it apply to just about anything."

I am not sure where you feel that I have "taken liberty in applying certain Scripture to my charts."  But, rather than a general, one-size-fits-all approach in your comments -- if you will be more specific, I will be happy to address those comments.

Since your post has addressed Revelation 4:1, I will respond to that.   There are two similar Scripture passages which address revelations, or visions, of heaven received by apostles.

The first is the passage you question in Revelation 4 involving John while on the island of Patmos:

Revelation 4:1-2, "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.'  Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne."

The second is written by Paul about his experience of being taken into heaven in spirit:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4, "Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.  I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago -- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows -- such a man was caught up to the third heaven.  And I know how such a man -- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows -- was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

In both passages, neither the writer, nor we reading it, know for sure if this was a physical event where the writer was taken into heaven bodily -- or if it was only a spiritual vision, i.e., a revelation, used by God to teach.  Personally, I believe they were spiritual occurrences.

In Revelation 1:19 Jesus Christ (the first and the last, the Living One, verses 17, 18) tells the apostle John, "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."  Christ is describing three distinct time periods in the life of the church.

"The things which you have seen" -- John walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry, was there at His crucifixion, resurrection, ascension -- and, on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD he saw the birth of the church, the body of believers.  These things John saw personally.  These were "things he had seen."

"The things which are" -- would be representative of the condition of the church at that time, when John was jailed on the island of Patmos, off the west coast of Asia Minor (Turkey).  John was jailed on Patmos by the emperor Domitian (AD 81-91), so John is believed to have written the book of Revelation about 95 AD.  Jesus has John write a letter to seven individual churches which were in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) in which Jesus Christ gives His assessment of those churches and what each must do to get back to the spiritual fervor they had when they first began, and to the spiritual level set my Christ for all churches.

Some see the seven churches as representative of seven time periods in the Church Era, the time from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture of the church.  Personally, I view these letters as representing seven conditions of local churches which Christ foresaw would come about during this Church Age period:  Ephesus is the Persevering church; Smyrna is the Suffering church; Pergamum is the Persecuted church; Thyatira is the Compromising church; Sardis is the Dead church; Philadelphia is the Faithful church; and Laodicea is the Lukewarm church.

Today, it is easy to recognize each of these types of churches in our worldwide Christian community.

"The things which will take place after these things" --  after the occurrence in Revelation 4 and 5 where John saw a vision of heaven and heavenly worship; John is shown the full Tribulation period which is described in Revelation 6 through 18.  From Revelation, chapter 6 through chapter 18, the church is not mentioned, it is conspicuously absent.

This period is the seven year Tribulation and during that time the church has already been Raptured into heaven; thus, all we see in chapters 6 through 18 are those things, the wrath, which will happen on earth.  But, the church has been taken out before this happens, as promised in Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 14:1-3 -- and symbolized in Revelation 4:1-2.

Are the events which take place in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 and in Revelation 4:1-2 symbolic?  I believe they are, yet they are intended as a revelation from God to teach and encourage the apostles, and we who read their writings.   I also believe that Christ promised the Rapture in John 14:1-3, "I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

And, He gave the details of the Rapture to the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

In Revelation 4 and 5, He shows the apostle John how the church will be taken into heaven via the Rapture, and He shows him the holy worship which takes place in heaven.

You ask, "Are you, and other Pre-Trib folks saying that the Church and (the) dead in Christ are raptured in spirit, rather than body, or is it a bodily rapture because verse 2 plainly says Immediately I was in the SPIRIT."

First, let me clarify one point.  You write, "the Church and (the) dead in Christ.   It would be more accurate to write, "those who are still alive when the Rapture occurs, and those who are dead in Christ."  For the church is not only those who are still alive.  It also includes all who have already died in Christ -- for they are very much alive in heaven at this moment.

The Rapture is a bodily catching up or snatching up.  In 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul makes it clear that we will be raptured from our mortal bodies into our glorified, immortal bodies.  When a believer die, his/her body goes into the grave, but his/her spirit goes directly into heaven.  At the Rapture, the body in the grave is resurrected, and is glorified.  In its glorified state, the body and the spirit are reunited.  We who are alive are taken up in body -- and "in the twinkling of an eye. . . we shall be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:52).

And then, in our immortal bodies, which are free of the Adamic Sin Nature curse, we are ready to stand before Christ at the Believers' Judgment to receive our robes of pure white linen, which will be our own righteousness (Revelation 19:8).

As long as we are in our mortal bodies, we have the Adamic Sin Nature and no righteousness of our own (Isaiah 64:6).  Since God cannot look upon sin and wickedness (Habak*** 1:13) and all of us still have that sin nature -- God solves the problem for believers still in our mortal bodies by imputing, or attributing, the righteousness of Christ to all mortal believers.  Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe. . ."

After the Believers' Judgment, all believers will be able to stand before God in our own righteousness, our robes of pure white, fine linen, "the righteous acts of the saints" (Revelation 19:8).

So, we leave this world in spirit; but, at the Rapture, all saints, Old Testament and New Testaments, will receive our glorified, immortal bodies which are designed for heavenly residence.

Next, you ask, "Also how do you reconcile that, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Christ meets the Church and past Saints in the clouds -- yet, in verse 2 of Revelation 4:1-2 it clearly states that John (if figurative of the whole Church) is in HEAVEN, in fact before the throne, immediately and not in the clouds."

How long do you think it will take God, Jesus Christ, to Rapture us into our immortal bodies?

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

How much time does it take you to blink?   That is how fast we will be Raptured and given our glorified, immortal bodies -- and just as fast, we will be in heaven.  No, my Friend, we will not dilly-dally in the clouds -- for it is much more important to be in heaven, in the presence of God the Father.

You tell me, "Another discrepancy is with the trumpet  call.  In 1 Cor 15:52 it is a literal trumpet, yet in Revelation 4 it's a voice like a trumpet.   Which is it really, according to Scripture?"

We read in GotQuestions.Org:

Question: "Is the last trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4 the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation?"   http://www.gotquestions.org/last-trumpet.html

Answer:  If the “last trumpet” of 1 Thessalonians 4 is not the same as the seventh trumpet, then what was Paul referring to?  Both 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians were written long before John wrote Revelation, so Paul's readers would have no knowledge of the seven trumpets of Revelation.  Paul intended for them to understand what he was writing about, so we need to look elsewhere for clarification.  Paul's writing was distinctly in reference to the church, and the closing of the church age at the rapture.

Throughout Scripture, trumpets were used as signals to gather people, to set armies on the move, and as part of the worship of God.  The trumpet that summons the church is called “the trump of God,” while those in Revelation are angelic trumpets.  Since it is a summoning trumpet, we can look to the Old Testament for further understanding.  Numbers, chapter 10 gives instruction to Israel about the use of trumpets to calling an assembly of the people and to set them in motion.

So if the trumpet is the call for saints to assemble and journey to heaven, what does that mean for us?  Jesus said that no one knows when the Day of the Lord will begin (Matthew 24:36), and 1 Thessalonians 5:2 describes it as coming as a thief in the night, without warning.  In 1 Corinthians 15:58, we are told to be “steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.”  Just like the Israelites in the wilderness, we do not know when the trumpet will sound, so we are to be always ready.

We should not get to hung up on which trumpet is which.  Let's just be concentrating on being ready when He does come for us. For, whether Christ's call to believers at the Rapture is a trumpet sound, a rushing water sound, a voice like the sound of a trumpet, or whatever -- we WILL recognize His call.  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28).

Next, you declare, "Now regarding the Rapture as the Churches'Blessed Hope,' literally one of, if not the most important, event in the Churches' (future) and all Christians' future -- why would such an important, if not the most important, event regarding the New Testament Church -- not be covered by Jesus Christ Himself in any of His recorded sermons?  WE have documented, in the Gospels, various teachings and sermons of Christ during His earthly ministry.  Yet, WHERE IS THE RAPTURE specifically taught by Christ (Scripture/book, chapter, verse reference)?"

Personally, I do not view the Rapture as our "Blessed Hope."  I believe that Titus 2 tells us that our "Blessed Hope" is His Second Coming.

Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

Christ came first as the Suffering Servant Lamb.  When He comes again, He will come as the Roaring Lion of Judah, returning in glory.  This is His Second Coming when He will establish His Millennial Kingdom on the throne of David in Jerusalem -- and will rule the world, the perfect theocracy, for 1000 years.  He WILL come in full glory at His Glorious Appearing, His Second Coming.

In that statement above, you boldly insist, "WE have documented, in the Gospels, various teachings and sermons of Christ during His earthly ministry yet WHERE IS THE RAPTURE specifically taught by Christ (scripture/book, chapter, verse reference)?"

Glad you asked!  It is simple.

John 14:1-3, "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.  If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

That, very clearly, is Jesus Christ telling us of the imminent Rapture.

Next, "Regarding Paul's letter to the Thessalonians -- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, just what do you see the 'gathering together to him' in vs 1 (verse one) being?  (Is it) The Rapture, the Second Coming?  And, do you also not see the event referred to, by Paul, in verse 4 being the Abomination that causes Desolation as prophesied in Daniel 9:27?"

Actually, in this Scripture passage, Paul is speaking of both the Rapture and His Second Coming.  In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, Paul teaches about the coming, imminent Rapture of the church.  Between the writing of his first letter to the Thessalonians and this second letter, it is obvious that trouble makers had come into that church and were spreading doubt.

So, Paul begins by his second letter by telling them, "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (His Second Coming) and our gathering together to Him (the Rapture), that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).

Then, we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

Verses 3 and 4 take us to the appearance of the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness is revealed.  While he, the Antichrist, will be on the earth when the Rapture occurs -- he will not have risen to power yet.  His rise to power will be swift -- and, some time after the Rapture, most likely very soon after -- he will rise to world dominance power and convince Israel to sign a seven year Peace Covenant with him.  This signing, as we see in Daniel 9:27, is what starts the Tribulation clock ticking.  And, in the middle of the seven year Tribulation, the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple.

That is the meaning 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, which is referring to “abomination of desolation” (Matthew 24:15 KJV) and "the abomination that causes desolation" (Daniel 9:27), i.e., the desecration of the Jewish temple.

Finally, you suggest, "The key is to keep Scripture within it's original, meaning/context -- and then to tie various diverse references together, (so) that all mean or relate to exactly the same thing.  In other words the events foretold in Daniel 9 should remain true and correlate with scriptures in the New Testament.

While you, and I use (to also), point to 1 Corinthians 15:50-51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and say it applies to the Rapture -- I know other, well versed Christians, who do not believe in the Rapture and say that those very passages refer to the eventual reconciliation of Christ and the Church at the 2nd Coming."

First, there is nothing in Daniel 9 that denies the Rapture which is foretold in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.  Specifically, Daniel 9:24-25 define the 69 weeks of years (483 years) assigned by God for Israel's cleansing.

Verse 26 tells us that the Messiah will be cut off, i.e., crucified.

Verse 27 tells us of the covenant Israel will make with the Antichrist which begins the final or 70th week (7 years) of Daniel.  This will be the start of the horrible seven year Tribulation.  But, before that happens, the church will be taken out of the world (Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 14:1-3) -- so we will never get to meet the Antichrist, until we return with Christ at His Second Coming.

Although Daniel 9 does not specifically mention the Rapture -- nothing there precludes the coming Rapture.  So, to the best of my knowledge, I see no Scriptural conflicts and I believe that the Scripture references shown on my charts to be accurate.  However, if you can show any that are not accurate -- I have no problem making changes to my charts.

Over the past ten years, those charts have been changed a number of times as new insight was revealed to me, through Christian Friends, or through greater insight given me by the Holy Spirit as I continue studying this fascinating period which is coming, maybe soon.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill