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RE: http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070730/APP/707300539

How many of you feel that religion will or will not discount a presidential candidate because of their religion? I sometimes feel that many journalists are trying to set Romney up for failure by constantly asking the American public, "Can a Mormon win the presidency?" Everytime they cast doubt into the minds of the American public. It seems unfair.

Should religion even be a consideration? I think that people should vote for whoever they feel is the most capable to fill the presidency.

As for me, I'm still undecided between Mitt Romney and Fred Thompson... I think both are very capable of doing a good job. Religion, for me, isn't really a deciding factor, nor should it be for anyone else, really.
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It would depend on what their religion teaches, such as violence. However, unless I've missed someone, I don't believe that will be an issue.

I think at this point, because of the war situation (and - for me - the immigration issue), religion will not play a large part. Most people, in my opinion, are looking for someone with a plan of withdrawal from Iraq. I will also be looking for someone with a history of voting, or at the very least a history of speaking out, against illegal immigration.

I was watching the Democratic YouTube Debate a few nights ago, which was a hoot if you missed it. I'm nodding my head, as TSC likes to say Smiler , thinking I may possibly vote for a Democrat and then they start talking about saving yet another country, sending troops to yet another country, as if any country wants us anywhere near their country so they can be the new fighting ground for America vs. loonies.
Having been a devout Mormon for the better part of my life (no longer, however), I feel like I have a right to be concerned about Mitt Romney's religion. Mitt took the same oaths in a Mormon temple that I did and as I, he pantomimed his own violent demise while pledging to allow his life to be taken before he would ever reveal those secrets or break those oaths. The only one of those oaths that would concern me was the one about promising to give EVERYTHING with which he was endowed to the building up of the Mormon Church (i.e., the "Kingdom of God"). There was no aside that said, "oh, but if you think there is something that is for the good of the Country that might not be for the good of the Mormon church, it's ok to break your oath and do that."

I hate that he always falls back on the Kennedy thing, like being a Catholic is the same thing. How many Catholics do you know who have pledged to die before they'd reveal the Catholic secrets?
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Having been a devout Mormon for the better part of my life (no longer, however), I feel like I have a right to be concerned about Mitt Romney's religion. Mitt took the same oaths in a Mormon temple that I did and as I, he pantomimed his own violent demise while pledging to allow his life to be taken before he would ever reveal those secrets or break those oaths. The only one of those oaths that would concern me was the one about promising to give EVERYTHING with which he was endowed to the building up of the Mormon Church (i.e., the "Kingdom of God"). There was no aside that said, "oh, but if you think there is something that is for the good of the Country that might not be for the good of the Mormon church, it's ok to break your oath and do that."


Sounds like you have a beef with that church, which you are entitled to. However,from what I know his religion hasn't been a problem for him in his past political positions. I'm certainly not saying that I'm voting for him but even with what you have said I would not let that play a part in my vote.
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Originally posted by NormaRae:
Having been a devout Mormon for the better part of my life (no longer, however), I feel like I have a right to be concerned about Mitt Romney's religion. Mitt took the same oaths in a Mormon temple that I did and as I, he pantomimed his own violent demise while pledging to allow his life to be taken before he would ever reveal those secrets or break those oaths. The only one of those oaths that would concern me was the one about promising to give EVERYTHING with which he was endowed to the building up of the Mormon Church (i.e., the "Kingdom of God"). There was no aside that said, "oh, but if you think there is something that is for the good of the Country that might not be for the good of the Mormon church, it's ok to break your oath and do that."

I hate that he always falls back on the Kennedy thing, like being a Catholic is the same thing. How many Catholics do you know who have pledged to die before they'd reveal the Catholic secrets?


Trust me, I highly doubt he is aspiring to be a puppet for the LDS church in order to gain control of the nation. There are 5.5 million members of the Mormon Church throughout the nation in all walks of life and in every career field imaginable. They do their work according to how they feel it appropriate and try to live their lives according to their religion. Romney is smart and has been successful in many different things. I don't see the presidency being different from any other job. You don't see Mormon construction workers, lawyers, teachers, engineers, senators, architechs, or dog trainers each trying to gain control of their respective trades in order to do the "bidding" of the Mormon Church. Why should anyone think Mitt Romney will do that if he becomes president?

I don't say that as an endorsement for Romney for president, but just to let into the conversation a breeze of common sensical fresh air.
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Sounds like you have a beef with that church, which you are entitled to. However,from what I know his religion hasn't been a problem for him in his past political positions. I'm certainly not saying that I'm voting for him but even with what you have said I would not let that play a part in my vote.


I'll clarify myself. I said I have a concern about the Mormonism thing because of the temple oaths and I think that part is what is lacking in the media discussions about this issue.

However, there are a few things where I think being a Mormon is a plus. Most Mormons think stem cell research is fine, even Orin Hatch is pro stem-cell research. Romeny has flip flopped on that issue, but I think it is only for the primaries. I think as a president he would be ok with it, which I would be happy about. Also, the Mormon church doesn't have a clear-cut "life begins at conception" theology so they allow for abortion in the case of rape, incest, life and health of the mother, etc., which I would hope would always be part of any laws that restrict abortion.

I lived in Utah during the 2002 Olympics and run up to it. I saw what Romeny did with that, totally turning it around and making it a success and so I do think his business savvy could be a big plus. Hence, I'm not totally anti-Mitt, I just feel like the things that should be a concern should be voiced.
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You don't see Mormon construction workers, lawyers, teachers, engineers, senators, architechs, or dog trainers each trying to gain control of their respective trades in order to do the "bidding" of the Mormon Church. Why should anyone think Mitt Romney will do that if he becomes president?


Obviously, you've never lived in Utah! You want to see senators doing the "bidding" of the Mormon Church, check out the Utah State Legislature.
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Obviously, you've never lived in Utah! You want to see senators doing the "bidding" of the Mormon Church, check out the Utah State Legislature.


No, I've never lived there before. I've visited a couple of times, though. Salt Lake was a very clean place and is really pretty. I admittingly don't know anything about Utah politics. But, I can only assume that since the overwhelming majority of the people are Mormons, then their representatives in the capitol are as well. This probably means that the way they vote coincides with the beliefs of the dominant religion of the area, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
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I can only assume that since the overwhelming majority of the people are Mormons, then their representatives in the capitol are as well.


Good assumption, but not the case. The percentage of Utah Mormon politicians (the governor, lt. governor on down, all U.S. Congressmen, 90% of state legislators, etc.) are practicing Mormons. That doesn't come close to matching the demographics of the state, especially when you take into account the number of people who don't consider themselves Mormons anymore, but the Mormon church still does since they count anyone who was ever baptized.

But the state politicians are elected because they get the money--the same reason any candidate is elected and the same reason Romney is the top money getter with a large percentage of his money coming from Mormons. Practicing, temple-endowed Mormons, believe that contributing to Mormon candidates is a fulfillment of their sacred oaths. Trust me, I believed the same thing. The church leaders love to claim they don't get involved in politics or encourage their members to vote one way or the other. They don't have to. They have the assurance of knowing the members understand what is expected of them and the members never let them down.

Again, not necessarily a bad thing. There are a lot of good Mormon people and good politicians who are Mormon. There are many many Mormons in the FBI, CIA and other government positions. If your main issue is passing an amendment banning gay marriage--Mormons are who you want in government. I would vote for Romney over Thompson in a heartbeat.

My only "beef" here is that I'm tired of seeing all the misinformation in the press. I wish they would put the truth about the Mormon Church (good and bad) out there and then let people make informed decisions about the candidates. I usually see all good or all bad articles, but all of them are usually missing the facts that people might want to know before they make a decision.
Right, because Mormons should never exercise freedom of speech. Along with Southern Baptists, their opinions of politics and laws should be silenced immediately. Heil Hitler! I'm being sarcastic and now feel a strong urge to bathe, but you get the point.

The only way any religious group can be influential is if those in their city, state or country agree with them. Sorry, just getting a little tired of hearing this, which is insulting to this educated nation.
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Originally posted by NormaRae:
he pantomimed his own violent demise while pledging to allow his life to be taken before he would ever reveal those secrets


You mean the "secrets" that God is actually a space alien from the planet Kolob?

I like Mitt but the American voter does need to know that Mormon beliefs are, believe it or not, even wackier than Christian beliefs.
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Originally posted by Kachina:
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Sorry, just getting a little tired of hearing this, which is insulting to this educated nation.


This "educated nation" elected Bush! I think we can all stand to be a little better educated before the next election. This thread has been educational.


Oh, we are definitely better educated for the next election and specifically because we elected Bush. The past few years have been excruciating, especially for anyone who helped put him in office. That's an eye opener no one is likely to ever forget.

Thanks, inquisitive! Smiler
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Oh, we are definitely better educated for the next election and specifically because we elected Bush. The past few years have been excruciating, especially for anyone who helped put him in office. That's an eye opener no one is likely to ever forget.


I can't imagine how excruciating that would be--to know I helped put that guy in office. Thankfully that is one torture I'll never have to know.
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Originally posted by Kachina:
I can't imagine how excruciating that would be--to know I helped put that guy in office. Thankfully that is one torture I'll never have to know.


I am ready to see Bush go (I'm tired of all the whining) but I am still a supporter of his. I voted for him then and I'm **** proud of it.

The economy is the strongest it has ever been despite the setbacks of a couple of days ago. Unemployment is virtually non-existent. Wages are UP.

What is REALLY scary is that the Democrats want to change all that.

And finally, my sons can sleep safely because we are taking this stupid war to THEM instead of the other way around, War is ugly, stupid, nasty, corruptive, and unpopular but, until we humans evolve a better way, we are stuck with it.
Yes, war has definitely been good for the economy but then they knew that going in, right? Amazingly, we have not received a thank you card from the Iraqi people for taking this stupid war to them. You know as long as our children are safe, it doesn't matter if their's die. I know you didn't mean it that way, GoFish, but that's what came to my mind as I was reading your post.
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
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Originally posted by Kachina:
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Sorry, just getting a little tired of hearing this, which is insulting to this educated nation.


This "educated nation" elected Bush! I think we can all stand to be a little better educated before the next election. This thread has been educational.


Oh, we are definitely better educated for the next election and specifically because we elected Bush. The past few years have been excruciating, especially for anyone who helped put him in office. That's an eye opener no one is likely to ever forget.

Thanks, inquisitive! Smiler


Well said, Joy, VERY well said!!!
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
Yes, war has definitely been good for the economy but then they knew that going in, right? Amazingly, we have not received a thank you card from the Iraqi people for taking this stupid war to them. You know as long as our children are safe, it doesn't matter if their's die. I know you didn't mean it that way, GoFish, but that's what came to my mind as I was reading your post.



No thank you card, and to beat that, they even said they were ready to take over their own government, and wanted us out of there, how much clearer can they make it???? Especially since we should have never gone in the first place.

BUT, on the topic of Religion and the 2008 election, I have to remind everyone that Bush ran on the "PRO LIFE" ticket and said he would STOP abortions (murdering) of babies in his first attempt. His excuse for NOT being able to do that in his SECOND attempt was the war. Hypocracy at its best, he has allowed killing to go on in the abortion sector, and in the war sector, all CLAIMING Religion.

Well, HIS idea of Religion and God is definitely NOT mine. Religious people do NOT do the things he has not only allowed, but condoned in this Nation.

Now, we are talking RELIGION here, not finances, not money, not economy, not the highest deficit in our country's history, no, none of that, just the Religion he has embellished on.
I feel that someone's religious beliefs does influrence my decission for any politician...And this is my way of thinking

I am a Christian and I know if a politician claims to be a Christian how he/she should act. If they are not Christians and Claim to be something other then I will research that and see what they believe in and watch them to see how they act. If they claim one thing and don't live by their faith (not talking a one time incident but a pattern of behaving wrong) then why should I trust them to be a leader? If they can't honor their commitments to their God what makes them more committed to me.

I am more apt to vote for a Athiest that lives by what he doesn't belive in then a Christian that doesn't care how he acts except in church.
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
Yes, war has definitely been good for the economy but then they knew that going in, right? Amazingly, we have not received a thank you card from the Iraqi people for taking this stupid war to them. You know as long as our children are safe, it doesn't matter if their's die. I know you didn't mean it that way, GoFish, but that's what came to my mind as I was reading your post.


No, I didn't mean it that way but if you ask me I'll tell you: I'll have 10, 100, 1.000, 10,000 of them die before one of mine dies.

President Bush has protected this country since we were attacked. He has done so quite successfully. I will forever be in his debt because of that.
What?! How have I missed this side of you, GoFish? I must have avoided the Politics section too long. I thought when you said you loved W, you were kidding. I'll need a minute to process and pull myself up off the floor... Wink

IMHO, if it was President Bush's behind facing the threat of being blown to bits by IEDs, our troops would never have entered Iraq in the first place.

I have never been so disappointed in someone as I am in President Bush and I mean that. I thought, like a fool, he had integrity. He either does not care who dies to get him what he wants or is dumb as a rock...has to be one or the other - no other way to explain our presence in Iraq. Since I know he would never have attained his position were he an ignorant person, there is no decent way to say what that makes him.
interventor, I don't know to what degree the war has affected the economy but it wouldn't have to be much for the current administration to crow about it, right?

War provides increased demand for all kinds of products from war equipment and material to food and medical supplies. This also results in increased employment. However, war removes thousands from the workforce (soldiers killed or disabled). So, some profit by war, but in the long run, the cost far outweighs any profit made.
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
Right, because Mormons should never exercise freedom of speech. Along with Southern Baptists, their opinions of politics and laws should be silenced immediately. Heil Hitler! I'm being sarcastic and now feel a strong urge to bathe, but you get the point.

The only way any religious group can be influential is if those in their city, state or country agree with them. Sorry, just getting a little tired of hearing this, which is insulting to this educated nation.


Did you know In God We Trust" was put on all paper currency by an Act of Congress in 1955 and first appeared on paper currency in 1957?
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Originally posted by bluesman *:
I will not vote for a President because of their religion, that to me does not matter, what matters, is how the heck they are going to turn this country around, get us out of the free trade junk, what they are going to do about all the illegals, and how in the heck do they plan to get us out of debt. Let me repeat myself again, "OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDEN, WILL SOMEDAY ASK" What were them people back then thinking, or was they.



I TOTALLY AGREE!!!! Religion should be separate, and if any man/woman has to run by using their Religious beliefs, and then not hold to them, then they are hypocrits.

So therefore, RELIGION and POLITICS should never be mixed, it is like trying to mix oil and water.
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Originally posted by interventor:
Joy,

WWII cost the US 25 percent of the GDP and upto 14 million in uniform on a population base of 140 million. US now has about 1.2 million in uniform on a population base of 300 million.



Not to mention MUCH MUCH better and MORE accurate weaponry, tanks, and things to actually carry on a SAFER war, if there is such a thing. Back in WWII, they had to almost GUESS at everything they did, especially bombs out of planes. Most of their guns were in bad shape, and very inaccurate.

Now, we have new and modern weapons, UNIFORMS that take most shots WITHOUT killing the Soldier, and much more protection.

Also, our in-field Triage is so much better and easier to access than ever before.

There are many reasons WHY we do not need such a large military right now, one being that Iraq is a VERY small country compared to what we had to take on during WWII, there is no comparison to the two.
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Originally posted by Schnauzer:
I feel that someone's religious beliefs does influrence my decission for any politician...And this is my way of thinking

I am a Christian and I know if a politician claims to be a Christian how he/she should act. If they are not Christians and Claim to be something other then I will research that and see what they believe in and watch them to see how they act. If they claim one thing and don't live by their faith (not talking a one time incident but a pattern of behaving wrong) then why should I trust them to be a leader? If they can't honor their commitments to their God what makes them more committed to me.

I am more apt to vote for a Athiest that lives by what he doesn't belive in then a Christian that doesn't care how he acts except in church.



The only really BAD thing I can say is that is that person going to STAY religious depending on your reason for their vote? Bush didn't. So how can we expect anyone else to?
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Originally posted by GoFish:
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Originally posted by Kachina:
I can't imagine how excruciating that would be--to know I helped put that guy in office. Thankfully that is one torture I'll never have to know.


I am ready to see Bush go (I'm tired of all the whining) but I am still a supporter of his. I voted for him then and I'm **** proud of it.

The economy is the strongest it has ever been despite the setbacks of a couple of days ago. Unemployment is virtually non-existent. Wages are UP.

What is REALLY scary is that the Democrats want to change all that.

And finally, my sons can sleep safely because we are taking this stupid war to THEM instead of the other way around, War is ugly, stupid, nasty, corruptive, and unpopular but, until we humans evolve a better way, we are stuck with it.



THAT mindset of the war has been disproved by every news media there could possibly be. Washington KNOWS that they are on our turf as we speak.

Being OVER THERE, does NOT mean they won't strike here...................AGAIN!!!

Put on your thinking cap, who flew the first plane, and WHERE???? Right here!! There are sleeper cells all over our country, and according to the news yesterday morning, they are NOW recruiting the Mexicans into their cells.

Think they aren't here all you want, be secure that our Troops being over THERE is keeping us safe, but don't be surprised when the media is RIGHT and they DO strike AGAIN right here on our very own soil.

Us being over there to keep them from being here is a huge "myth" that started long ago as, yet, ANOTHER cause for us being over there.
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Originally posted by interventor:
Joy,

The entire Defense Budget is about 4 percent of the GDP. If you believe this significantly affected the economy, then I have an amazing rug to sell you I brought back from Baghdad -- it flies.


If you DO NOT believe it, then that same amazing rug is back to you!!!

Our economy, our deficit and our very monies are suffering something fierce... all one has to do is watch TV COMMERCIALS to see where our economy is going, it is a no-brainer!!!

It is just a well kept SECRET (or was) that GOP didn't want people to know... but guess what??? Over 2/3 rds of our population FOUND OUT.
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Originally posted by Kindred_Spirit:
quote:
Originally posted by Schnauzer:
I feel that someone's religious beliefs does influrence my decission for any politician...And this is my way of thinking

I am a Christian and I know if a politician claims to be a Christian how he/she should act. If they are not Christians and Claim to be something other then I will research that and see what they believe in and watch them to see how they act. If they claim one thing and don't live by their faith (not talking a one time incident but a pattern of behaving wrong) then why should I trust them to be a leader? If they can't honor their commitments to their God what makes them more committed to me.

I am more apt to vote for a Athiest that lives by what he doesn't belive in then a Christian that doesn't care how he acts except in church.



The only really BAD thing I can say is that is that person going to STAY religious depending on your reason for their vote? Bush didn't. So how can we expect anyone else to?


Not saying that it is the only deciding factor..but an inportant one to me. The candidate must have plans on dealing with a wide range of problems we face, and he can have some very good ideas but my statement stands, if he can't keep his commitments to his God, then I don't want him as my leader.

You said Bush didn't and how can we expect others too? well I don't want a religious nut in the white house, I want one that is committed to his faith and just because one man falls short doesn't mean we can't expect others to do the same. Thats like saying someone's dad was a good person so the son must be one also..or his brother was a cigar smoking cheating husband so everyone else in his family is the same. No you must look at the Individual and let them stand on their on merits.
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
Yes, war has definitely been good for the economy


There is very nearly no correlation between the war and our booming economy. War usually hurts an economy until it's over. You know as well as I that the economy will likely explode even higher once some sort of peace is achieved - at least that's how it's worked the bast 150 years or so.

Our economy is booming because of the hard work of the American worker, an educated workforce and is ESPECIALLY due to an administration that keeps it's greedy hands out of capitalism.

The Democrats WILL destroy that if given the chance.

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