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Senator Richard Shelby has spoken most eloquently in protectionist remarks for the heavily state subsidized foreign automakers in Alabama in today's Senate hearing. These are the exact same people who tried to kill us over 60 years ago. Who made the vehicles that helped win World War II? American made vehicles are also heavily involved in today's conflict. Thank you, Senator Shelby(sarcasm) and God bless America - wxpecially the bankers!

I am an essentially flawed individual who nevertheless does the right thing enough of the time.

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After watching some of the "Big 3" in front of the committee asking for their bailout money I am THOROUGHLY disgusted. Shelby asked how they plan to pay the taxpayers back and NOT ONE of them had a plan! They are paying folks $105,000 per year FOR NOT WORKING! Thanks UAW! For their own survival they need to declare Chapter 11 and restructure. Get rid of the heavy burdens of the UAW and then if they need some cash and can so a plan to pay back than LOAN them some money.

De Nile is a river in Egypt, not a state to live in.

ONLY 1450 DAYS UNTIL THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
redbull,
Chapter 11 is the best idea. If they made cars people wanted and could afford, they would not be in the toilet. Isn't that was free enterprise is all about?


If there was still such a thing as "free enterprise", probably yes. But our vice-president elect is owned part and parcel by the unions, so it's doubtful he'll not do everything he possibly can to help them out. Their plan seems to be for everyone in the US to pay for a car but instead get a gratuitous smile. Isn't it wonderful how our money is used to reward incompetence and inefficiency?
quote:
Originally posted by Zeb:
Chapter 11 is STUPID,it is a sure fire way to ruin the economy


Why do you feel Chapter 11 is STUPID? Just curious. It's allowed the airlines, Donald Trump and a few other heavy players to reorganize and get back on their fee. Loaning money to companies who can tell you how they would pay you back - not even a plan to do so - is STUUUUUUUUUUUPID.

De Nile is a river in Egypt, not a state to live in.

ONLY 1450 DAYS UNTIL THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
It's a substantially better idea than permitting the Government to invest in the companies, including banks and automakers.

Restructure, get union concessions (or throw them all the way out), get competent management, and change your business model.

And my car (a BMW) was made in South Carolina; probably by a bunch of good old boys. Call it German if you want, but they won't agree with you.
If all three American auto companies go down with their suppliers, what will be the net result on the American econoomy? You are correct Zippah, that is a thoughtful question. As I said, a prior bailout! BTW, I did not miss one word of the senate hearing. I also voted for Richard Shelby. I heard every statistic - management and union. You really do not want to go there! I am interested to know what you do that you would not be affected by the massive effect on the economy. Age defines the outlook on life.
I'm not really convinced that filing Chapter 11 would have a huge impact on the economy. There are many companies who have reorganized under Chapter 11 and made out fine. When you have the president of UAW saying they weren't willing to change anything and STILL want part of MY hard earned dollars. NOPE.

Toyota, Honda, BMW all have plants in Al and seem to be doing just fine WITHOUT the union and a bailout.

De Nile is a river in Egypt, not a state to live in.

ONLY 1450 DAYS UNTIL THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
I do not know anyone who would buy a car from a compnay that may not be around tomorrow. An airline or some other business declaring bankruptcy is a lot different than buying a 5 figure item from a company that may not be around in 6 months.

I think they made their own bed but, unfortunately, the other businesses who would go down with them did not. As for the foreign automakers, they seem to be making more cars in the US and creating more jobs than the "American" car makers these days...And they produce a better product, also.
The incentive packages to get manufacturiing companies to locate in a particular place are good for the politicans but usually bad for the taxpayers. The politicans get to say "hey look at all these jobs that I have brought/created here". To that I say you should look at the NPV of the state's investment. That would include factoring in the cost of the incentive and the benefits the state receives in the form of taxes received, salaries that the employees receive and then benefits made off of the salaries being put back into the local economy. It is not that hard to do and I am sure you would see that the benefits would not outweight the costs. Good for the politicans and the few who get jobs bad for the taxpayers as a whole.
My problem with the Big Three Bailout is that we will be giving a ton of money essentially to the Unions. If the companies were allowed to dissolve the contracts under Chapter 11, and start over, using the monies that were set aside for development of greener vehicles, they could do so in an affordable way. The pensions which are there now would be secured, as opposed to if the companies just go belly up. In that case the government will have to take over those and we will be paying them anyways, and I for one have spur marks on my back from carrying too many people along now, I don't want any more folks on the government teat. My guess is that if they do dissolve into bankruptcy, they will either combine, or be bought by an outisde entity and restrucured in such a method to be able to remain solvent. When over 50% of the current price of the vehicle is being spent roward Union contracts then there is no incentive for me as a taxpayer to bail them out. The Libs can call me cruel or whatever, but as a self employed worker I don't see anyone contributing to my retirement pension.
An article I read this morning says GM's hourly compensation for wages is $71, compared to $47 for a Toyota employee. That is over 30% higher. Overpriced Union labor is one thing that is killing these companies. That combined with poor insight into fuel saving vehicles, and over paid CEO's will devastate the company. This is a big mess, and unless the labor Unions are willing to negotiate, the collapse of the auto industry is going to be a disaster to the US economy.
Teyates, that's the bottom line. Those compensation figures are out of line with the market. That doesn't even figure in the costs for retirees.

The way I see it working out in the end is that either the compensation must come down through job cuts or decrease isn compensation or they will go bankrupt and Toyota, Honda, etc. will end up employing those workers laid off at the true market rates as they continue to grow in market share.
Will medical costs go down with a decline in salaries or massive unemployment? Foreign auto makers in thir home field are subsidized by their governments - as is all medical care. (I do not want socialized medicine- I am quoting facts). Be careful what you ask for- you might get it! I have lived through a depression and a war in which the people at home had a part instead of just keeping on playing and watching the war on TV as a spectator sport. Age does influence outlook! I reiterate: I did not miss one word of the hearings. 3,000,000 persons with families out of work(Harvard Business SChool figures) on top of what Wall Street has done to us would not be good! Yes, we built a worhip kingdom dedicated to the auto - including the sacrifices made via accidental deaths and we are being called to account!
quote:
Originally posted by earthmomma:
Will medical costs go down with a decline in salaries or massive unemployment? Foreign auto makers in thir home field are subsidized by their governments - as is all medical care. (I do not want socialized medicine- I am quoting facts). Be careful what you ask for- you might get it! I have lived through a depression and a war in which the people at home had a part instead of just keeping on playing and watching the war on TV as a spectator sport. Age does influence outlook! I reiterate: I did not miss one word of the hearings. 3,000,000 persons with families out of work(Harvard Business SChool figures) on top of what Wall Street has done to us would not be good! Yes, we built a worhip kingdom dedicated to the auto - including the sacrifices made via accidental deaths and we are being called to account!


All of the workers at the Toyota, Honda, Mercedes plants, etc. built in America are not subsidized by the foreign governments. They have health care plans just like other American companies.
A depression will not form due to the bankruptcy of the Big 3. People are not buying their cars now, but are still driving. The trimming of the Big 3 would be good for the auto industry in the long run. Even if we loan them this money, jobs are still going to be lost and the situation will repeat itself in another couple of years.

I look at it this way. If I was at a dealership and somebody wanted to buy a car from me, however they didn't have a stable job, no liquid assets, and already used up their previous credit? Would I make a loan to them? The resounding answer is no. This is basically what the Big 3 is doing.
quote:
Originally posted by earthmomma:
Somebody say something about the massive incentive packages. Remember Governor Riley saying, " I just could not offer them any more". Alabama taxpayers pay for the incentive packages. I am trying to distinguish betweeen helping a company which has helped make America and paying new ones up front to "please come here".


Help me out here. How does that work exactly? How much money was paid up front?
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
An article I read this morning says GM's hourly compensation for wages is $71, compared to $47 for a Toyota employee. That is over 30% higher. Overpriced Union labor is one thing that is killing these companies. That combined with poor insight into fuel saving vehicles, and over paid CEO's will devastate the company. This is a big mess, and unless the labor Unions are willing to negotiate, the collapse of the auto industry is going to be a disaster to the US economy.


At $71 per hour, they are making, per hour, more than the average pediatrician, internist, and family practice physician makes. They are making about the same as the average ob/gyn.
quote:
Originally posted by earthmomma:
The "final owners" of the foreign companies surely live in the foreign countries as well as many employees. There would be health costs there. I repeat you have not lived through a depression. Be careful what you ask for!


In the past, I've owned stock in both Toyota and Honda. I've never been to Japan.

Don't fret earthmomma, just go to the lock box and count your savings bonds, take a deep breath, and go through your coupons.... that's it, relaaaaaaaaxxxxxxx.
LOL, Crusty Mac, I have been to Japan. I do not think I my husband and I would have a depression problem because we have always lived as two people who have been there and done that. Yes, we have always saved money and would be able to survive. Ii am not the only person in the world, however. I carry a burden for the poor. Yes, I am just a little afraid. I do not abuse my medicare or insurance - basically I am in trouble for not going to the doctor until I am practically at death's door T was taught by my father to recycle before it was a word. Exxon, et al, would go broke if they depended on my gas expenditure. I think ,perhaps, my concern is that the baby boomers and younger will suffer as well as the very poor because they have never had to cope. Be careful what you ask for! My hard earned money. BTW, was unfortunately not in savings bonds. It, what's left of it, is in the market and mutual funds. Oh, for a savings bond to count! Maybe you take too much for granted concerning what you don't know about me. And the market was so much fun while it lasted! Go to the 360 Grill and overpay! We are going to Legend's because they had a coupon in the paper. LOL When you get home read the story of "The Ant and the Grasshopper". I am pulling your chain! I really think you are a neat person and we do agree about most things. I wish I could relax!
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
An article I read this morning says GM's hourly compensation for wages is $71, compared to $47 for a Toyota employee. That is over 30% higher. Overpriced Union labor is one thing that is killing these companies. That combined with poor insight into fuel saving vehicles, and over paid CEO's will devastate the company. This is a big mess, and unless the labor Unions are willing to negotiate, the collapse of the auto industry is going to be a disaster to the US economy.


At $71 per hour, they are making, per hour, more than the average pediatrician, internist, and family practice physician makes. They are making about the same as the average ob/gyn.

Yep, don't know about you but I'm definitely in the wrong line of work Crusty. Of course I imagine those line workers at GM are not carrying a beeper and facing the same liability as that Ob-Gyn, that is one job I know I don't want.
The point though is here are three companies which are doing something very wrong, where as Toyota is outselling them and and outperforming them in every arena, for nearly half of what the big three is paying. It is not simply a matter of making a more fuel efficent vehicle if you cannot sell it at a price that most Americans can afford. Maybe the government needs to just take over the operation and subsidize all the tapayers with a vehicle every four or five years. I might be for it then.....LOL

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