This is true even here in our small southern town. We have seen an increase in our local groups.  If you are atheist, or agnostic. Join us! Humanists of the Shoals meets every 2nd Saturday. PM me if you are interested in joining our group.

 

New York City, USA - About 400 people are preparing to gather for a conference in Hartford, Connecticut, to promote the end of religion in the US and their vision of a secular future for the country.

Those travelling to the meeting will pass two huge roadside billboards displaying quotes from two of the country's most famous non-believers: Katharine Hepburn and Mark Twain. "Faith is believing what you know ain't so," reads the one featuring Twain. "I'm an atheist and that's it," says the one quoting Hepburn.

At the meeting, members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) will hear speakers celebrate successes they have had in removing religion from US public life and see awards being presented to noted secularist activists.

The US is increasingly portrayed as a hotbed of religious fervour. Yet in the homeland of ostentatiously religious politicians such as Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry, agnostics and atheists are actually part of one of the fastest-growing demographics in the US: the godless. Far from being in thrall to its religious leaders, the US is in fact becoming a more secular country, some experts say. "It has never been better to be a free-thinker or an agnostic in America," says Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the FFRF.

 

Read more here:

http://wwrn.org/articles/36303/?place=united-states

 

Original Post

All religions are temporary.  They don't stand to scrutiny very well.  Up until now, religions that fade away have been replaced with other religions, often by persuasion, often by arms.

 

We live in an interesting time when we ask ourselves, with our newly-gained knowledge about the universe, why any religion is necessary.  None is.

 

This gives us unfettered freedom to determine real morality, real meaning, and real justice.  As a species, we're growing better.  It will take time, but those who come after us will recognize us as the vanguard of a necessary and beneficial movement.

 

DF

Originally Posted by Ronnie P.:

I'm starting a support group for atheists so they can move on.  It's called the hair club for men.


Heh. I'll supply the hair.

 

Semi, my wife and I have been considering attending one of those meetings just to see what we can see. We've been to a small get-together with some of the Humanists and they all seem like pretty real folks.  I liked every one of them that I met.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Ronnie P.:

I'm starting a support group for atheists so they can move on.  It's called the hair club for men.


Heh. I'll supply the hair.

 

Semi, my wife and I have been considering attending one of those meetings just to see what we can see. We've been to a small get-together with some of the Humanists and they all seem like pretty real folks.  I liked every one of them that I met.

 

 

Hey I was at that little get together! I really enjoyed hanging with you and your wife too. We would love to have you both come to the meetings. Not a whole lot different than the get together you went to except there is no beer, or wings. We have one this Saturday!

 

Best I don't get the hair joke either....but then I don't always get corny jokes so that might be the problem.

Originally Posted by b50m:

Explain something to me Dark, is humanist and atheist the same thing?

Wouldn't a humanist worship the human race?

b,

All humanists are atheists. Not all atheists are necessarily humanists.

 

"Many wonder how atheists can have morals. There are many moral systems an atheist could adopt; however, Humanism is the most popular. Humanism is a moral system founded on the observation that human beings have the potential to solve moral question guided by reasoning and evidence."

http://www.gainesvilletimes.co...on/24/article/56988/

 

http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

Humanism is a moral system?

 

Why would an atheist need a system to be moral?

 

Why do you need religion to be moral?

 

I always thought humanism was the worship of the human species for its own uniqueness and ability to be above the lower the species.

 

I guess I missed it all the way around.

If I kill someone, I go to jail. Not an intellectual or emotional system, but a system of law to prevent chaos. Invented in cave man times to keep order.

 

If i kill someone and I am religious, I go to jail and to Hell.

 

In both cases, I am aware of doing something wrong. In one case, my death ends when my last breath ends.  In the other, my death begins an eternity of torment for the transgression of taking another life that I had no right to.

 

One yields logical justice, the other yields moral justice. How odd that the legal system follows the Biblical system of 'an eye for an eye'. Which actually was a limitation on punishment. You were only allow to do to your attacker exactly the same as they did to you, no more, no less. You could not kill a man for stealing a sheep, nor could a man be let off for murder.

Originally Posted by b50m:

...How odd that the legal system follows the Biblical system of 'an eye for an eye'...

How odd that you don't see that the Biblical system actually follows the moral codes of humanity that preceded it by about ten thousand years of recorded history and probably about a hundred thousand years in total. Odd too that you credited cave men (older than God and Jesus) with the moral codes and forgot about it at the end of your post.

B,

 

How are ya? I have read and re-read your post and I am still unsure of what you are trying to say.

 

Why would our legal system not be an intellectual moral system? Why do we have laws? Not to ensure we don't sin, or go to hell. We have laws to protect society. If humans did not have the intelligence to try and do what is right to live together in a healthy society then we would not have advanced this far. We as a society have made laws and have set up moral standards based on knowledge and experience. Most of us know better than to beat our children with a stick. We know this because we have learned that physical punishment of children can lead to adults with mental and abusive issues. It hurts them emotionally as well as physically. The bible did not teach us that.

 

Our laws do not reflect an "eye for an eye". In some countries it does, if you steal you get your hand cut off. In our society we would never do that. Why? Because that would be cruel, that is the emotional side to our moral system.

 

I may be way off base on what you were trying to say, but it seems like you are saying that without god or the bible we would not be moral. I hope I am wrong in that assessment.

 

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by b50m:

...How odd that the legal system follows the Biblical system of 'an eye for an eye'...

How odd that you don't see that the Biblical system actually follows the moral codes of humanity that preceded it by about ten thousand years of recorded history and probably about a hundred thousand years in total. Odd too that you credited cave men (older than God and Jesus) with the moral codes and forgot about it at the end of your post.

.................................................................................................................................

 

Didn't forget, just haven't seen a code of conduct written by a cave man at Walmart. Yes, there  are many belief systems older than Christianity. And there  are moral codes older than the Bible. But all those codes are followed through in the Bible and since it is the most recent writings of a moral code used worldwide, I used it. The laws in the US have a basis in moral beliefs that I think were derived from Christianity. The founders did not want a pure Christan theology but realized that the basic Ten Commandments summed up preventing chaos quite well. So laws were born from morality. Now whether morality came from religion solely or not is another question.

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

B,

 

How are ya? I have read and re-read your post and I am still unsure of what you are trying to say.

 

Why would our legal system not be an intellectual moral system? Why do we have laws? Not to ensure we don't sin, or go to hell. We have laws to protect society. If humans did not have the intelligence to try and do what is right to live together in a healthy society then we would not have advanced this far. We as a society have made laws and have set up moral standards based on knowledge and experience. Most of us know better than to beat our children with a stick. We know this because we have learned that physical punishment of children can lead to adults with mental and abusive issues. It hurts them emotionally as well as physically. The bible did not teach us that.

 

Our laws do not reflect an "eye for an eye". In some countries it does, if you steal you get your hand cut off. In our society we would never do that. Why? Because that would be cruel, that is the emotional side to our moral system.

 

I may be way off base on what you were trying to say, but it seems like you are saying that without god or the bible we would not be moral. I hope I am wrong in that assessment.

 

 

............................................................................................................

Hi Jank.

 

Just theorizing. Does it really take intelligence to come to the conclusion that farmer John shooting farmer Joe and stealing his land is wrong? Or that marrying your brother is wrong?

The 'spare the rod and spoil the child' is not a mandate to beat, but to use discipline. How many times have you been in a store where a child is completely out of control and the parents do nothing?

 

We put a man to death for murder, that is just. We give a man life in prison for murder, where he can do anything he feels like for the day: watch TV, read, study, play music, learn a trade, surf the net, gets three meals a day, health care, dental care, and he pays zip. His only punishment is not being able to leave the prison compound. If he claims to be 'reborn', he might even get a new chance to live his life over. However, what happened to the man he killed? He is still dead.

You would call putting him to death as cruel. Did his victim deserve to die?

 

How we come to these conclusions can be based on our religion, our beliefs, our conscience, our laws, or our own feelings of what is just.

We don't need a God or a Bible, but I do think our conscience is ruled by a power outside our-self, but as I said, just theorizing.

So, no, you don't have to believe in God or the Bible to be moral. And there are many who are immoral who do believe.

Just found the idea of needing a moral system for an atheist to adhere to an odd idea. Seems a way to have a faith based belief in a non faith system.

Originally Posted by b50m:

Humanism is a moral system?

 

Why would an atheist need a system to be moral?

 

Why do you need religion to be moral?

 

I always thought humanism was the worship of the human species for its own uniqueness and ability to be above the lower the species.

 

I guess I missed it all the way around.

You seem to have missed everything else. Why not this?

Originally Posted by b50m:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:
Originally Posted by b50m:

...How odd that the legal system follows the Biblical system of 'an eye for an eye'...

How odd that you don't see that the Biblical system actually follows the moral codes of humanity that preceded it by about ten thousand years of recorded history and probably about a hundred thousand years in total. Odd too that you credited cave men (older than God and Jesus) with the moral codes and forgot about it at the end of your post.

.................................................................................................................................

 

Didn't forget, just haven't seen a code of conduct written by a cave man at Walmart. Yes, there  are many belief systems older than Christianity. And there  are moral codes older than the Bible. But all those codes are followed through in the Bible and since it is the most recent writings of a moral code used worldwide, I used it. The laws in the US have a basis in moral beliefs that I think were derived from Christianity. The founders did not want a pure Christan theology but realized that the basic Ten Commandments summed up preventing chaos quite well. So laws were born from morality. Now whether morality came from religion solely or not is another question.

===

All the older moral codes are also in the Bible? Really? The Bible is the most recent writing of a moral code? As for US laws having a basis in Christian morality, that claim ignores that Christian morality is based on the human morality that existed long before God and Jesus. As for the decalogue, where in US law can: No other gods before me/No graven images/The Lord's name in vain/The sabbath day/Honoring parents/Coveting neighbor's servants, ox, ass, etc. be found? How does the majority of the Commandments that are not civil law prevent chaos so well? And the only legal stuff in the decalogue: killing/stealing/lying, etc. pre-date the Bible. There's nothing particularly Christian about morality. It's like saying that Hyundai invented the automobile because your family drives one.

 

 

Let me make clear that I did not say I was against the death penalty. I have no problem with permanently ridding society of cold blooded murderers. I said we do not cut off the hands of thieves, and yes I do believe that would be cruel.

 

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)


That is what the bible says. To me its very clear.  This is the morals that the bible teaches. Most of us have become more moral than the bible.


As far as I know there is no moral system that atheist must adhere to.  That is not what Humanism is about. There is no penalty or punishment if the ideas of Humanism are not followed. For me, and I think for most all other Humanists, we are just Humanists by nature. I was an atheist long before I had ever heard of Humanism. When I did, I realized it fit my views and goals as a human. I did not have to change or work at it. I was already there. It was a group of like minded people I could work with that would allow me to accomplish things that meant a lot to me. Things that are hard to accomplish alone.Charity work being one of those things.


Just like A. Rob. said, "All humanists are atheists. Not all atheists are necessarily humanists."

 

Question? Where do you change the font in this thing? I copied the scriptures from a site and then my font change to that font. This format s u x!

 

 

 

 

If you're religious, can you not be forgiven for killing someone?

 

 

**************************************************************************************************************

 

Semi, seems to me if a person claims to be religious or claims to have been saved in jail there are plenty out there ready to forgive them no matter how horrible their crime. All the ones willing to "forgive" start a campaign to have that person either released or given a lighter sentence. If you don't agree they want to tell you what's wrong with you and run you down. There many examples to use, but when the subject comes up karla faye tucker always comes to my mind. That one really made me want to puke. And they will claim that she will go to "heaven", but someone that lives "right" and never hurts or bothers anyone will go to hell unless they "choose" to believe. Then they wonder why people aren't buying their spiel about their "loving" god.

There's nothing particularly Christian about morality. It's like saying that Hyundai invented the automobile because your family drives one.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply there was. Since I'm not driving that 'Christian' car, it was not my intention. Christianity is just the one religion that most people know a lot about, love it or hate it. (AND I easily concede that you know a 1000 times more about religion than I do)

As for those Ten Commandments, yes, the first four deal with devotion to one God, and while there is nothing specific in any law we do have rules of conduct and decency. We have rules for civil discourse. We have rules that govern correct behavior. We, as a society, loathe the greedy and the selfish; we are disgusted with the immoral conduct of religious and non religious leaders, we find the lazy and slothful to be a drag on society, mindless wrath against each other is punished, those who we judge to be to 'fat' are scorned, the ones full of arrogance and pride make us sick to our stomachs. Now, are all those just natural reactions or or we tuned into the deadly sins of society without being consciously aware of it?

 

As I said, just thinking about moral codes. Morality is a fluid concept as some societies allow mutilation, cannibalism, incest, ...so if we all arrive at moral codes by our own humanist views, how do we get so many different ones?

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

B,

 

Did you read the sites that A. Rob. linked to? I think it would be helpful in understanding where we are coming from.

 

Or not.

...................................................................................................................................

 

Yes, I did Jank, I found this one staement to be most interesting.::::

Many Humanists underwent great personal change after having experiences best described as spiritual. Humanists don’t reject emotional, spiritual or transcendental experiences. We just don’t classify them as supernatural.

 

I also discovered that there is many flavors of being a humanist. Some resemble a political view, others an almost religious view.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by b50m:
If i kill someone and I am religious, I go to jail and to Hell.

________________________________________

If you're religious, can you not be forgiven for killing someone? If you ask & God does forgive you, do you think you will still go to Hell? 

 

Well, if you believe that you have been forgiven, or feel that God has acknowledged your remorse, then it is written that way. I have already told you Semi, I don't follow the Bible literally and don't view Christianity as the only faith. You have said God does not answer prayers, so why would He forgive someone?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

If you're religious, can you not be forgiven for killing someone?

 

 

**************************************************************************************************************

 

Semi, seems to me if a person claims to be religious or claims to have been saved in jail there are plenty out there ready to forgive them no matter how horrible their crime. All the ones willing to "forgive" start a campaign to have that person either released or given a lighter sentence. If you don't agree they want to tell you what's wrong with you and run you down. There many examples to use, but when the subject comes up karla faye tucker always comes to my mind. That one really made me want to puke. And they will claim that she will go to "heaven", but someone that lives "right" and never hurts or bothers anyone will go to hell unless they "choose" to believe. Then they wonder why people aren't buying their spiel about their "loving" god.

That was also my point. I do not buy the 'all is forgiven' when those in jail 'suddenly see the light'!  There are some who truly repented and made amends. Those are the ones who were not afraid to die for their crimes.

As Bill said one time, If Hitler asked for forgiveness before his suicide, he would be forgiven. Now I have a real problem with accepting a mass murderer in heaven.

 

But, I'm just rambling. Not trying to step on religious or non religious toes, just thinking out-loud.

God has put his word into every heart and mind including all of yours. It is up to you to believe what you will. But as of now you have been made aware of this, so now you have a choice. When your time comes to cross over I pray you made the right choice. May God bless you all.

Originally Posted by b50m:
Well, if you believe that you have been forgiven, or feel that God has acknowledged your remorse, then it is written that way. I have already told you Semi, I don't follow the Bible literally and don't view Christianity as the only faith. You have said God does not answer prayers, so why would He forgive someone?

______________________________

I'm sorry. Yes, you have told me that but sometimes I forget who has told me what they believe. I guess that's a sign of old age. (not laughing at you with the smiley face, I'm laughing at myself)

The reason I ask is because you said if you killed someone you would go to Hell.

I said God doesn't answer my prayers but that doesn't mean He doesn't answer the prayers of others. I've just never seen it. You're right that if I believe He doesn't answer prayers, then He won't forgive me if I ask. But that doesn't mean He may not answer someone that does believe.

I've had remorse over things, but I don't know for a fact that God acknowledged it or was even paying attention. Probably not.

But, I'm just rambling. Not trying to step on religious or non religious toes, just thinking out-loud.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think we all "think out loud". Sometimes it's hard to make it clear in a post what would be understood perfectly if you could hear the statement spoken. I can't imagine telling a child that has learned about the crimes of the hitlers and tuckers of the world being told that the same god that would forgive and welcome them into a heaven would punish that child if he/she came to not believe in him. Say what??? Talk about a conflicting message! There is no way to know how many people do not believe in a god, but will swear they do and just go with the flow. What atheist hasn't heard- "I don't believe all that mess either but why do you have to tell people you don't? Why not just keep it to yourself"?  "Why make people "mad" at you"?  In other words, "get in, sit down, hang on, and shut up". Christians want atheists to do that. No matter what lie they tell about atheists, no matter what direction the government takes, no matter who's oppressed because of religion or receives undeserved praise because of religion, just sit down and shut up. I just can't do that and I don't want it for my children or their children or theirs and on and on.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by b50m:
Well, if you believe that you have been forgiven, or feel that God has acknowledged your remorse, then it is written that way. I have already told you Semi, I don't follow the Bible literally and don't view Christianity as the only faith. You have said God does not answer prayers, so why would He forgive someone?

______________________________

I'm sorry. Yes, you have told me that but sometimes I forget who has told me what they believe. I guess that's a sign of old age. (not laughing at you with the smiley face, I'm laughing at myself)

The reason I ask is because you said if you killed someone you would go to Hell.

I said God doesn't answer my prayers but that doesn't mean He doesn't answer the prayers of others. I've just never seen it. You're right that if I believe He doesn't answer prayers, then He won't forgive me if I ask. But that doesn't mean He may not answer someone that does believe.

I've had remorse over things, but I don't know for a fact that God acknowledged it or was even paying attention. Probably not.

Since you are open to the possibility of some prayers getting answered, then you believe in the God of the Christian Bible, Semi?

 

For other thoughts out-loud.

 

I have seen people have prayers answered. I have seen prayers that did not get answered. Since the likelihood of an outcome by chance would be 50/50, would anyone even know if any prayer was answered?

 

Science has shown that by stimulating a certain area of the brain with magnetic waves, a spiritual presence is felt. Now that proves to the atheists that god is a delusion of the mind. However, since mankind has 'invented' gods since the beginning of time, I doubt Ogg and Nog the cave men had on magnetic wave helmets

 

So my conclusion is there is some higher power that looks over us. .If we are able to feel His presence, we accept this fact. If we do not feel it, we attribute it to delusion. Forcing one decision or the other is really a waste of time. You either feel it or you do not. But even those that don't feel this connection are still watched over.  I think He is waiting for a moment to show his power at a time when the person will accept it. MY OWN OPINION ONLY. It does not follow a particular doctrine, creed, denomination, or religious aspect.

 

I also think that humanism is a very cagey version of Buddhism, same enlightenment, same moral codes, same lack of a God.

 

Still a religion, just lacking a central figure.

 

Anyway, my two cents on my view.

Originally Posted by b50m:
Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

B,

 

Did you read the sites that A. Rob. linked to? I think it would be helpful in understanding where we are coming from.

 

Or not.

...................................................................................................................................

 

Yes, I did Jank, I found this one staement to be most interesting.::::

Many Humanists underwent great personal change after having experiences best described as spiritual. Humanists don’t reject emotional, spiritual or transcendental experiences. We just don’t classify them as supernatural.

 

I also discovered that there is many flavors of being a humanist. Some resemble a political view, others an almost religious view.


The blue part was the question I was thinking about.  I am looking forward to the meeting and hope I can make it.  Thanks for the info

Originally Posted by Frankly:

Doesn't atheisim mean you worship the devil?


Not at all.  It simply in barest form means not believing in a God or gods.  Beyond that it is a different definition just as different Christians have various viewpoints outside the basic "Christ" or "God" belief.

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