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A wise man, a Priest, actually gave a very good lecture on abortion. He basically said that it is the "root of all evil". Since abortion is legalized, society is numb to the reality of it, and not shocked/outraged by anything anymore. We are desensitized to violence, because our most vulnerable are not safe in their mother's womb.

Here is an excerpt:
THE ORATE FRATRESE- Father John Corapi
"This all being said, it has to plague the conscience of any thinking person that in this country there is yet the most immoral and deadly form of prejudice and persecution imaginable against the most innocent and vulnerable class of human beings-the unwanted unborn. No matter what advances this country makes, moral, economic, social, or technological, so long as that blight on our national identity remains, all else will ultimately pale into relative insignificance.

God is not a disinterested spectator in the affairs of man. He knows every child by name from all eternity. He loves each one with His infinite love. God’s holy Catholic Church teaches that abortion in a single case is homicide. I assert that if this is the case, and it is, then the 50,000,000 homicides through abortion that have taken place in the United States since Roe v. Wade constitute genocide. God will not favor such a country, regardless of any other progress. Unless this outrage against God and humanity is stopped very soon, the United States of America, and in turn all of the Western world, will realize the death wish that it has manifest for several decades.

Every Catholic, Christian, Jew, and all people of good will and right reason must pray and do penance rigorously and daily from now on for the defeat of this heinous evil we call abortion. If we fail, then Western society as we know it will soon collide with a disaster it will not survive.

May God have mercy on us."
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Hi vp,
I just want to put in my two cents. Please let me explain my reasonings before you decide.

I agree that life begins at conception. I also agree a baby is the most precious miracle in the world.

Now, I DON'T want Roe vs Wade overturned because it does not mandate an abortion for a woman, it simply allows her to get a safe legal abortion in a nice clean environment. Making abortion a crime will simply cause the death of two individuals, the mother and the child in a botched abortion.

I DO NOT want abortions to be used as lazy birth control by females who don't have a working brain cell. Of course, they would probably make a lousy mother as well. I DO want adoption centers to be right next to an abortion clinic and I want a counselor to tell the woman that she can get help during her pregnancy if she needs it.

I DO want protection for a minor from a family that may ostracize or threaten her while pregnant. ( personal experience here, my cousin was afraid her father was going to beat her to death) I DO want sex education taught in school starting in the fifth or sixth grade. I DO want abstinence stressed as the best and safest means of birth control but also realize that sometimes those teenage hormones make the brain crazy.

I DO want teenage mothers to be able to talk to someone, for free, if they feel they want to harm the baby because they feel trapped. I DO NOT want to read about babies beaten to death or starved or left for dead because the mother was too afraid or could not care for it.

I also want the father to be able to have a say in the pregnancy, if he or his family wants to raise and love the child, the woman should not get an abortion.

OK, I think that covers it. My personal view based on life experiences. Next.
Oh lord. I'm about to tick off several people, I'll bet.
I'll try to phrase things to lessen the irk Smiler

I BELIEVE that there is noting on this earth that wasn't put here by God, and that includes the knowledge of how to perform abortions safely.
( gimmie a minute... just bare with me...)
But, because of the nature of mankind, we tend to take His Gifts, and pervert them into something vain, petty, shallow, greedy, or pure evil.
Ask a husband who's wife was saved by a medically necessary abortion if he thinks they are evil.
is abortion a sin? yes, I think it is, unless it it used to save the life of the mother and there was no other option. HOWEVER I think that the issue is between the woman and God. A bunch of lardbutted blowhards on capitol hill have no say so in the matter. It certainly doesn't involve any preacher or pundit or anyone else. It's between the woman and God.
I hate the idea of abortion. I hate that it exists, but I promise you, if it had been a choice of my wifes life or an abortion, I wouldn't have had to think ot over for a milisecond. It would have likely caused a rift between us that would have ended in a bitter divorce, but I would know that she was alive - so I could live with it.

I believe it's a womans right to decide what happens to her body. I honestly believe that the father has little say in the matter - he doesn't have to carry the child and give birth to it. he doesn't have to suffer and barf and have invasive check ups and on and on and on.

At the very basic bottom of it, what I believe is this - if you are never going to be in a position to have an abortion, (ie, male) your opinion shouldn't matter unless it's used to save a womans life. If you might someday be in a position to have to decide whether or not to have an abortion, (ie, female) the choice is yours alone, no one elses, just remember that you'll have to asnwer to God one day.
(that's the part I expect that will really make people irate.)

As for the poor misguided women who repeatedly use abortion as an easy out birth control... well.. like I said. It's between them and God. whether they care or not, God will.

Before people start yelling at me, keep this in mind:
this is what I *believe*. I don't ask anyone to join me in my belief, and I don't say that I am correct for believeing it. This is an issue I've thought about long and hard, and still review from time to time to see if my feelings have changed.

I'm stating nothing here as fact or rule or law of either man or God, this is only my own opinion. If all you're going to do is flame and attack me, don't bother.
Nah, I wouldn't yell at you.
I completely understand what you are saying. My point, though, is that BECAUSE abortion is legal and acceptable, we, as a society, have lost the "outrage" factor on many things. Because once it's ok to kill/abort/terminate a child's life, our threshold for what is acceptable is lowered.
Now, when a mother's life is in jeopardy, thats a different matter entirely- God help the man that has to choose between his wife and his child. Frowner
I'm talking about "elective" abortions, here though.
Elective, simply because the woman AND man are too stupid or lazy to use birth control, is always wrong.

Problem, vp. How do you deal with an unwanted pregnancy? In my example, my cousin was only 15, she and her boyfriend had a 'moment of passion', then she was terrified of revealing the truth. She actually left home before anyone knew because it was safer to be a runaway then tell her father.

That scenario is what I can't find an answer to. Any ideas?
Wish I had the answers. If it were my daughter, she would carry the baby to term, then we would support her as she finished school, etc.
Not-supportive parents..I don't know. I do know that irresponsible pregnancy doesn't warrant termination. There are plenty of childless couples that would desparately adopt...
I'm sorry for your cousin's troubles, truly!
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Wish I had the answers. If it were my daughter, she would carry the baby to term, then we would support her as she finished school, etc.
Not-supportive parents..I don't know. I do know that irresponsible pregnancy doesn't warrant termination. There are plenty of childless couples that would desparately adopt...
I'm sorry for your cousin's troubles, truly!


it helps if the kids are taught early on that they can always come to the parents, always, about anything, and they'll get help in deciding what to do, and then will recieve support in what every decision they make.

i'd like to think that my daughter, in that situaiton, would choose to carry the child, but i would never force her to.
of course, i'd like to think my daughter would never get in that situation to begin with, but all you can do is teach them your best and hope it sticks.
Agree to you both vp and thenagel.

If was a horrible situation and I always felt bad about it. I was only 13 at the time and we did not find out until a couple of years later.

Good news is she and the boy did get married and they kept the baby. The father relented also.

I would have done the same as both of you, support her and help to make a better life or put the baby up for adoption.

My own daughter knows we are always here for her and she will never have to worry about something like that.


dogsoilder :any attorney is the downfall of society! LOL.
Glad it worked out for them all. Smiler
I always tell my kids there is **NOTHING** they can't tell me that will make me stop loving and caring for them. Sure I'll get angry (a lot- haha) but will always support them.
I think that is the best example we can give to them.
I think sometimes people can justify abortion based on the viability/size of the fetus/baby. In my opinion, that only helps Pro-Life arguements. It shows us just how incredibly vulnerable the baby is. And our duty as Christians is to protect them. Peace out...
All I will say is what the Episcopal Church teaches: "Abortion is not permitted as a form of birth control."

There are legitimate health reasons for which a safe surgical rather then a back alley are preferable. Think of all the women who have those pregnancies in the Fallopian tubes or a child who is poisoning them from within and both will soon die without removal of the fetus? That does happen. Too often and too rarely mentioned openly, since the mother is usually in shock at making the choice.

The shame is that there is shame in any child's conception by society. The shame is people wanting to play but not learning the rules.
quote:
There are legitimate health reasons for which a safe surgical rather then a back alley are preferable.


Agreed. I am opposed entirely to "elective" abortion. There are circumstances in which it is, sadly, the only option. (ie when the risks to the mother are insurmountable).
When it is done for "convenience", it is inexcusable.
Our society is "numb" to such things. We are so desensitized, in my opinion, to violence that elective abortion is no longer a "shocker". ;(
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
All I will say is what the Episcopal Church teaches: "Abortion is not permitted as a form of birth control."

There are legitimate health reasons for which a safe surgical rather then a back alley are preferable. Think of all the women who have those pregnancies in the Fallopian tubes or a child who is poisoning them from within and both will soon die without removal of the fetus? That does happen. Too often and too rarely mentioned openly, since the mother is usually in shock at making the choice.

The shame is that there is shame in any child's conception by society. The shame is people wanting to play but not learning the rules.

Hi Neal,

True, there are legitimate reasons for an abortion, i.e., mother's health, rape, and incest. However, these combined only represent less than 3% of all abortions in America.

The other 97% (over ONE MILLION each year since 1973) -- have been for convenience, i.e., a form of birth control.

I would be happy if Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Abortion Factories would give us the 97%. That would still save the lives of over one million babies each year -- in America alone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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i posted this in the abortion thread in news also. As i said in it i know nothing at all about the author. i just find it interesting that he uses the bible to show that life begins at 13 weeks after conception. the first 13 weeks abortion is fine, after 13 weeks it is murder:

There is no Scripture Law against abortion, but it is contrary to God's Plan and, without adequate reason, should be discouraged. Physical danger to the mother, rape and incest are sound reasons.

So much of the abortion argumentation revolves around the unanswered question of when human life actually enters the unborn fetus. Neither physicians nor theologians admit to that knowledge, but it is easily available in our Bible. Human life enters shortly after the tenth week of pregnancy. But can we prove it in the Scriptures? This Bible study is about the timing of new life in the fetus.

First, we ought to agree that the Word of God in our Bible is to be our exclusive acceptable standard of truth, or it is of no use to read further. Solomon had more wisdom and understanding than our contemporary professionals, because he obtained it from God. In Ecclesiastes 11:5, the King James version reads: As thou knowest not what (is) the way of the spirit (how) the bones in the womb of her that is with child ... The Septuagint text reads: Among whom none knows what is the way of the wind as the bones in the womb of a pregnant ... The Young's Literal translation reads almost the same as the King James. The Amplified version reads: As you know not what (is) the way of the wind (or how) (the spirit comes) to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman ... The identical Hebrew word is translated either wind or spirit. The words in parentheses were supplied by the translators to give continuity in English.

Therefore, these Hebrew words are also accurately translated: As you know not how the spirit moves to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman ... Physicians agree that the bones become formed shortly after ten weeks of pregnancy.

Truth is to be established by at least two witnesses. Can this trimester be confirmed in other Scripture? It is written that the Lord, your God, speaks to you by the Prophets and increases your vision, and appeals to you through similitudes (dramas) acted out by the Prophets. (Hos. 12:10). The tense is present-continuous in the Hebrew. Essentially the same declaration is made in Matt. 13:35, Isa. 8:18 and Ps. 78:2.

The Chosen People of ancient Israel entered Canaan ("birth in the low place) 2707 years after the death of Adam (when time reckoning began), according to the Masoretic Text. The 2707 years applied to a people governed by Law, as by the Ten Commandments. According to Bible patterns, the application to the individual would be 270.7 years. But the Lord also uses a day for a year. (Ezek. 4:6) We know the human gestation period is about 271 days! This comparison ought to help establish the validity of patterns.

Abraham's assignment was to bring the nation of Israel to life. For important assignment, the age of accountability and beginning of the subsequent work cycle is at age 12. Lk. 2:32, 49. From Abraham, age 12, to birth of Isaac at Abraham's age of 100 (from the nation's conception to its initiation of new life) was 88 to 89 years. If we think in terms of one day for a year (Ezek. 4:6), the 89 years become 89 days from conception to the initiation of new life. In the human embryo, that would mean 13 weeks of pregnancy before the presence of life. This becomes a second witness!

Look again! The work week beginning with Adam is 6000 years then the Millennium Sabbath just ahead. That 6000 years is divided into a 2/3 part (4000) reaching to Christ's first coming and a 1/3 part (2000) to complete the Plan. The 4000 year portion was also divided. It was a 2/3 part (2667) to the Law. The 1/3 part (1333) followed into Spirit control by Christ. That is the story for these Divine affairs. For human affairs, the 1/3 would come before the 2/3. Abraham was called in 1979 B.C., 2021 A.M (after mortality). The interval to the birth of Christ was 1979 years. The 1/3 portion of 1979 is 660; the 2/3 portion is 1319. The 2021 A.M. call + 660 = 2681 A.M., only 14 years over the 2667 A.M. giving of the Law for order. The 2021 call + 660 + 1319 = 4000 A.M., the birth of Christ. The pattern of the 1/3 and 2/3 division is here validated.

The Bible number for human gestation is 273 days. 1/3 of the 273 is 91 days; 2/3 is 182 days. In terms of application to a people or nation and a year for a day, the 273 becomes 2730 years. 2730 years before the start of Christ's ministry in 4030 A.M. was 1300 A.M. The 1/3 portion of 2730 is 910 years. 1300 A.M. + 910 years = 2210 A.M.

Before Joseph began serving Pharaoh, he represented Christ. Joseph's going down to Egypt out of the Promised Land is the same pattern as the Christ Spirit out of the heaven realm taking up His official ministry on earth. Joseph left in 2214 or 2215 A.M. (only 5 years more than the above 2210 A.M.). The 2/3 portion of the 2730 years is 1820 years. Adding the 1820 to the base of the above 2210 A.M. = 4030 A.M. That was the beginning of Christ's official ministry in the Temple. Jhn. 2:15.

Joseph entered no Temple in Egypt, but we can apply the Joseph pattern to the human spirit leaving the heavenly spirit realm and going down to earth to begin a new assignment. Applied generally to individual human gestation, 1/3 of the 273 becomes 91 days after conception, when the human spirit is assigned to the developing embryo. It does not then enter the unborn body, but impinges itself upon it through an ethereal umbilical cord during the subsequent 182 days of pregnancy. At the end of gestation, the baby is born and the physical umbilical cord is severed. The baby's spirit is pressed into his body at that time to take full charge, though tenuously through the silver cord. If death occurs, the silver cord umbilical is broken and the spirit released. Eccles. 12:6-7, Ps. 58:3, Isa. 48:8 with Gen. 2:7, (after connection established), Zech. 12:1 (spirit pressed in literal).

Thus, if we are willing to take such increase in vision from the Designer and Builder, God Almighty, we can know the unborn fetus is not a human until about the 13th week of pregnancy - and can not be murdered before that time. It is doubtful these patterns from M. Dahl's prophetic revelations can be used effectively as proof with the rank and file, but they may help boost convictions of truth among the few who accept Hos. 12:10 as God's Truth.


C. Gordon Wolcott
Hi TCF,

I would be careful of this guy for several reasons:

First, on his ministry web site, I could find nothing which defined his Biblical Doctrinal Beliefs.

Second, in one of his writings he tells us that he was a Methodist pastor who left that -- and became a believer in Universal Salvation, i.e., salvation for ALL people regardless of who they are or what they have done. And, most importantly, what they have NOT done -- they have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Yet, this man believes and teaches Universal Salvation for ALL people. Very unBiblical.

And, along with this -- he does not believe in hell; which is also Biblical.

To the best I could determine; this man appears to agree with the Unitarian Universalist church -- which is a cult church.

So, his views on anything to do with the Christian faith or the Bible will be very suspect.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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