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Saddleback Church Civic Forum -- Obama vs McCain!

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

I watched the full event and have to admit that I was surprised. For a while, I have not been a big fan of Rick Warren. And, last night, when I went to the Saddleback Church web site and clicked on the special page for this event: http://saddlebackcivilforum.com/index.html -- I became even more concerned. On that page, I read the following description of Rick Warren: Dr. Rick Warren is a pastor, author, global strategist, and philanthropist.

I have known him a long time as a pastor and author -- and the philanthropist part did not surprise me -- for his books have sold in the millions.

However, the "global strategist" part really worried me. I know that Warren buys into Social Theology and obviously Social Politics -- but, what makes him a "global strategist" -- and is this all just a ploy for him to become more of an influence in the White House?

These thoughts were in my mind -- and these thoughts made me wonder if Warren would ask the tough questions. I have to admit that Rick Warren proved me wrong. He did ask the tough questions I wanted to hear. So, for that I say God bless him and I give Rick a big "Atta Boy!"

Now, to the real players here: Barack Obama and John McCain.

When Obama was asked about his faith; he went off on a long dissertation about his grandmother's faith and his family, quoted a few Scripture verses (very well rehearsed, almost no glitches) and when he finished, I am sure I am not the only one who said to myself, "Huh! What did he say? Did he say yes or no to Christian faith?"

When McCain was asked this same question, he replied, "I am saved." Then, he went on to tell the story of when he was in the Vietnamese POW camp, and was bound in the rope torture -- where they would leave the prisoners bound this way for many hours. As he was laying there tied in a ball by the tight ropes, a Vietnamese guard slipped quietly into his cell and loosened the rope to reduce his torture. Four hours later, the guard came back to tightened the ropes again, just before the officer came back.

Later, the guard approached McCain in the exercise area and discretely made a cross in the sand with his toe -- then, wiped it away and walked away. This is reminiscent of the early Christians identifying themselves by making the fish in the dirt. McCain's profession of faith was much stronger to me.

When asked about abortion, Obama talked all around it and ended by saying that he wants to work to reduce the need for abortions. Then, he went on to say that he believes that the women (remember, it is about 1.4 million a year in America) really agonize before having an abortion. When we see women who have had multiple abortions; how much agonizing have they done before each one?

Once again, Obama talked all around the issue -- but, we must keep in mind that NARAL (National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws), the flagship of all Pro-Abortion organizations -- rates all politicians each year on how they voted for or against abortion. When a senator votes Pro-Abortion, NARAL gives him/her a higher score. When a senator votes Pro-Life, NARAL gives him/her a lower score. Now, let's take a look at how NARAL rates Obama and McCain -- and we will see why Obama talked around the issue -- but, is still VERY Pro-Abortion.

Obama's NARAL ratings:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.or...tatements/obama.html
2007: 100 percent
2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent

McCain's NARAL ratings:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.or...atements/mccain.html
2007: 0 percent
2006: 0 percent
2005: 0 percent
2004: 0 percent
2003: 0 percent
2002: 0 percent

Obama was in good form oratory wise tonight. He was relaxed, he spoke well, and projected himself well. To be honest with you; I wondered how McCain would do when following him.

Keep in mind that McCain was kept in an area where he could not hear nor view Obama's performance. So, when McCain came out, he was firing blind regarding his opponent's responses. I was very surprised, and very happy to see John McCain do an excellent job of fielding Warren's questions -- and giving solid answers.

When Obama was asked if he had ever voted to limit abortion; he once again danced around -- but, then came back with the statement, "If you believe that life begins at conception."

When McCain was asked when life begins, without any pause, with no hesitation -- he said, "At conception."

At one time, Obama made the statement, "If we have it within our power to prevent genocide, we should do it."

He and Warren were talking about the situations in Africa; but, my mind immediately went to abortion. No where in Africa, or in any nation in recent history, has a genocide occurred which included millions of people. Yet, in America every year, we kill 1.4 MILLION babies via abortion. Every year, around the world 46 MILLION babies are killed via abortion. If this cannot be labeled genocide -- what can? Of course we call this INFANTICIDE, which is genocide committed against innocent babies.

In my mind, I asked the question, "Obama, if you are elected and have it within your power -- will you work to stop abortions?" And, the answer which is most obvious from Obama's history is: NO. He will not work to overturn Roe v Wade and protect innocent baby lives.

Warren mentioned that, worldwide, there are 140 million orphans. When asked what he would do, Obama went into another dance about how America should do for these orphans as President Bush has done for the African AIDS/HIV problem -- set up a special program to help them; which I admit should be done.

When McCain was asked about these orphans; he told the story of when his wife, Cindy, went to visit Mother Teresa's orphanage. When McCain met Cindy's plane upon her return, she greeted him with an infant and told him, "Meet your new daughter." That daughter is now seventeen years old.

When asked if he would vote to support a Traditional Marriage Amendment to the Constitution; Obama gave a firm NO. He went on to elaborate on how he supports civil unions for gays; but that he believes the states should decide about same-sex marriages.

When McCain was asked; he said that he would not push for a Traditional Marriage Amendment to the Constitution; feeling that the states should control this. But, then he went on to say that if anyone tried to push through a Massachusetts type law in Congress; he would fight hard to have the Traditional Marriage Amendment added to the United States Constitution.

Before this Saddleback Civil Event, I knew that I would vote for McCain -- but, only as the lesser of two evils. Watching this Saddleback Civil Event; I came away feeling very strong for McCain. Now, I do not consider McCain the lesser of two evils -- but, I see him as MY strong candidate to be MY president for the next eight years.

Personally, I cannot see how any Christian can vote otherwise -- and I especially cannot see how any conservative evangelical Christian can vote otherwise.

The most important thing is to vote. Keep in mind: NOT VOTING IS VOTING! But, very often for the wrong person.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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AlaMexAlaMexSmall Talker
After watching and listing to the answers from both candidates I'm now changing my vote to McCain as he knows whats going on and does not "him-haw" around with answers like Obama trying to figure out what to say and try to sound educated with all the pauses and uh's. Obama lost BIG TIME. I've been a democrate all my life and so has all of my Family and friends but as we all watched the answer session we all are for McCain now. For all my other democrate Friends if you did not see the McCain/Obama TV show in Saddleback Ca. you will vote for the wrong man-Obama. McCain was quick and sharp with his answers and can bring us and our children a better life than Obama. Come with me and Lobby and Vote for McCain.
LMMLMMOld Faithful
quote:
As a global strategist, Dr. Warren advises leaders in the public, private, and faith sectors on leadership development, poverty, health, education, and faith in culture. He has been invited to speak at the United Nations, the World Economic Forum in Davos, the African Union, the Council on Foreign Relations, Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, TIME’s Global Health Summit, and numerous congresses around the world. TIME magazine named him one of “15 World Leaders Who Mattered Most in 2004” and in 2005 one of the “100 Most Influential People in the World.” Also, in 2005 U.S. News & World Report named him one of “America’s 25 Best Leaders.”

As a theologian, Dr. Warren has lectured at Oxford, Cambridge, the University of Judaism, the Evangelical Theological Society, and numerous seminaries and universities. His six books are known for explaining theology in understandable ways and have been translated into more than 50 languages. Dr. Warren says he teaches theology without using theological terms and telling people it is theology. His latest book, The Purpose Driven Life, has sold 25 million copies and is the best-selling hardback book in American history, according to Publisher’s Weekly.

As philanthropists, Rick and Kay Warren give away 90 percent of their income through three foundations: Acts of Mercy, which serves those infected and affected by AIDS; Equipping the Church, which trains church leaders in developing countries; and The Global PEACE Fund, which fights poverty, disease, and illiteracy.
AlaMexAlaMexSmall Talker
Miamizsun, Have you not ever told the truth? Who doesn't lie? Kids, Parents, Church Elders, Preachers, Mayors, Govoners, State Rep's, Vice Presidents and Presidents, well, it's a proven fact they/we all lie including you. If you say you do not lie, well, have you ever told your kids there is a Santa Clause or I was only going 35mph when the Cop said you were doing 60 in a 30 mph zone? I think you get my drift. With that being said, vote for your favorite lier and mine, and many others, are now moving from the Demo side to the Rep side to get the right man,(lier), in charge. No Obama for this house as he will lead us to further destruction and troubles with all the "pauses" and "uh's" in his speech. Do you want to hear Obama's counterfiet speeches for the next four years??? "Good grief", that will become annoying and embarrising for the USA.
miamizsunmiamizsunHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Taciturn:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Three guys on the stage, and not one of them would tell you the truth....


So which one of those two "liars" are you voting for? Smiler


Neither, I'll more than likely vote for Bob Barr. He is clearly head and shoulders above the other two mouthpieces.

Regards, miamizsun
miamizsunmiamizsunHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by AlaMex:
Miamizsun, Have you not ever told the truth? Who doesn't lie? Kids, Parents, Church Elders, Preachers, Mayors, Govoners, State Rep's, Vice Presidents and Presidents, well, it's a proven fact they/we all lie including you. If you say you do not lie, well, have you ever told your kids there is a Santa Clause or I was only going 35mph when the Cop said you were doing 60 in a 30 mph zone? I think you get my drift. With that being said, vote for your favorite lier and mine, and many others, are now moving from the Demo side to the Rep side to get the right man,(lier), in charge. No Obama for this house as he will lead us to further destruction and troubles with all the "pauses" and "uh's" in his speech. Do you want to hear Obama's counterfiet speeches for the next four years??? "Good grief", that will become annoying and embarrising for the USA.


Read this very carefully:

For political purposes, they are essentially the same. If you are expecting some great change if either Obama or McCain are elected, you're in for a big disappointment. The political influence on your life as you know it will be exactly the same, regardless.

As we get further and further into our inescapable financial hole, the politicians are left with fewer real decisions. The powers that be, that control the Dem or Repub parties, both internal and external, are going to keep these guys in line with their agenda.

There is campaign rhetoric and reality, I'm elaborating on the latter.

Regards, miamizsun
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by Taciturn:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Three guys on the stage, and not one of them would tell you the truth....


So which one of those two "liars" are you voting for? Smiler


Neither, I'll more than likely vote for Bob Barr. He is clearly head and shoulders above the other two mouthpieces.

Regards, miamizsun
Hi Miami,

Then, you would be better off just sleeping late that morning. History in our lifetime has shown us that voting for an obscure third party candidate is just "spitting into the wind."

Yes, it might make you feel better. You can say to yourself, "I voted my way" -- when all the time you just wasted your vote.

If you want to see real change in America; vote for one of the candidates who will win -- and then keep applying fire to their butts to do the things we know are best for our country.

Believe me, politicians do listen when their constituents yell loud enough.

If you want change in America -- don't waste your vote. NOT VOTING IS VOTING!

For me, I am voting McCain -- and then I will keep yelling loud enough for McCain and all the politicians to hear.

Just my thoughts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by littlemeanmama:
quote:
As a global strategist, Dr. Warren advises leaders in the public, private, and faith sectors on leadership development, poverty, health, education, and faith in culture. He has been invited to speak at the United Nations, the World Economic Forum in Davos, the African Union, the Council on Foreign Relations, Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, TIME’s Global Health Summit, and numerous congresses around the world. TIME magazine named him one of “15 World Leaders Who Mattered Most in 2004” and in 2005 one of the “100 Most Influential People in the World.” Also, in 2005 U.S. News & World Report named him one of “America’s 25 Best Leaders.”

As a theologian, Dr. Warren has lectured at Oxford, Cambridge, the University of Judaism, the Evangelical Theological Society, and numerous seminaries and universities. His six books are known for explaining theology in understandable ways and have been translated into more than 50 languages. Dr. Warren says he teaches theology without using theological terms and telling people it is theology. His latest book, The Purpose Driven Life, has sold 25 million copies and is the best-selling hardback book in American history, according to Publisher’s Weekly.

As philanthropists, Rick and Kay Warren give away 90 percent of their income through three foundations: Acts of Mercy, which serves those infected and affected by AIDS; Equipping the Church, which trains church leaders in developing countries; and The Global PEACE Fund, which fights poverty, disease, and illiteracy.
Hi Little Mama,

Now that you have told us what Rick Warren says about Rick Warren -- what are your thoughts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to all,

My Friend, Pastor Ike, is a Conservative Evangelical Christian pastor from Tennessee. For years, he pastored a church here in Southern California until illness made him retire early. Several years ago my pastor and I met with him when we were looking for a church facility we could use for our worship services on Sunday afternoons. Pastor Ike is a very warm, loving person -- and a good pastor. The Lord lost a great pulpit teacher when he had to retire; but, he now has a writing ministry and I am happy to be on his mail list.

This is Pastor Ike's take on the Saddleback Civic Forum yesterday:

Last night's Civic Forum, led by Pastor Rick Warren, was superb! It was done with dignity, respect and fairness. The questions were the same and each had the opportunity to speak his mind without being interrupted by the other candidate. And, the questions were hard hitting and dealing with issues that are critical for our time.

The only thing I heard Rick say that I disagree with is his mention that he believes in the separation of church and state. There is no such thing as this in our constitution or any other official documents. Our judicial has manipulated the American public into thinking that this is official and legal. Anyone can look up Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist Association and read the story for themselves. It was a PRIVATE letter and dealt only with the issue that no denomination of Christianity would become the official state church, as they had in Europe. Jefferson, after he penned this letter, went to church in the U. S. Capitol building, as he did weekly. This lie has been so widespread that even godly men like Pastor Warren has been deceived by it. Other than this I found the program excellent in every way.

My conclusion was that Obama looked like a shallow, inexperienced man with mere rhetoric, while McCain acted and spoke with great clarity and boldness. His years of military experience and his congressional time showed up in spades as a man who has led and will lead America in a solid and wise direction. He did not mince words about how he felt on key issues. There was no need for political spin, but as Jack Webb used to say on Dragnet, "Just the facts, ma'am."

Be careful about what you hear from the liberal media concerning Pastor Rick. I know Rick personally and he is the real deal in every way. I pray for Rick and all pastors daily. I have a great love for men of God who keep their integrity, because I am one of them myself.

Thanks Rick for taking on this challenge. I am proud of you.

Ike

And, remember: NOT VOTING -- IS VOTING!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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LMMLMMOld Faithful
quote:
Hi Little Mama,
Now that you have told us what Rick Warren says about Rick Warren -- what are your thoughts.


I had not heard of him before the forum. I liked the fact that he seemed very sincere; was not adorned in gaudy rings, watches, and clothes; and he was a simple speaker who talked to the audience, not down to.
I posted the facts to give others a little info about him (careful Mr. Bill, you do not have to be condescending).. Giving 90% of his profits from book sales and other means back into the church and his charities seems a good thing for a humble Christian to do. He was very cordial in the forum to both candidates, although Obama's long ramblings seem to get on his nerves a little. Smiler
My views of the Saddleback forum are posted in the political thread on the event. Did you miss seeing it?
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by littlemeanmama:
quote:
Hi Little Mama, Now that you have told us what Rick Warren says about Rick Warren -- what are your thoughts?


I had not heard of him before the forum. I liked the fact that he seemed very sincere; was not adorned in gaudy rings, watches, and clothes; and he was a simple speaker who talked to the audience, not down to.

I posted the facts to give others a little info about him (careful Mr. Bill, you do not have to be condescending).. Giving 90% of his profits from book sales and other means back into the church and his charities seems a good thing for a humble Christian to do. He was very cordial in the forum to both candidates, although Obama's long ramblings seem to get on his nerves a little. Smiler

My views of the Saddleback forum are posted in the political thread on the event. Did you miss seeing it?
Hi Little Mama,

Please forgive me if I sounded condescending. That was not my intent; and most certainly not my desire.

You are right that Rick Warren did a fantastic job of moderating the forum and in speaking in a down to earth manner -- to both the candidates and to the audience. I have never had any qualms about Rick Warren being a sincere man of God; but, I have had some reservations about his move toward Social Theology in recent years.

And, you are right that he has given most of the profit from his books back to God's work. Once his books became a big success financially; he also reimbursed the Saddleback Church all the money he had earned over the years as pastor.

My reason for prompting you on the definition of "global strategist" is to get all of us thinking about it. In my mind, when I think of a "global strategist" -- my first thoughts go toward the political arena. However, on the other hand we Christians should be thinking of "global strategies" when sharing the Gospel. Jesus did tell us, in Acts 1:8, to be His witnesses in all the world.

But, again, my reasons for raising the red flag is to make folks think -- is Rick Warren thinking of the Gospel when he describes himself as a "global strategist" -- or is he thinking of politics.

I have no problem with a pastor getting involved in the political arena; we need more Christians involved there. I believe that Jerry Falwell did a world of good in getting Christians involved in the political arena with his Moral Majority movement. I did not always agree with everything he said or did; but, I praise God for his efforts toward getting Christian folks involved in the running of our government.

I believe Pat Robertson has done a lot of good by bringing his Christian views to the political arena. Again, I do not always agree with him; but, I applaud him for what he has done.

Once again, Little Mama, I was not throwing a dart at you -- only using your comment to give folks food for thought. And, I am sure that you are like me; hungry for new food.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
LMMLMMOld Faithful
No problem Mr. Bill
What is your opinion of Oral Roberts?? I always hated his stunt of getting people to donate money to his church so God would not smite him.
quote:
In 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home" (a euphemism for death).[8][9] Some were fearful that he was referring to suicide given the passionate pleas and tear that accompanied his statement. He raised $9.1 million.[10] Later that year, he announced that God had raised the dead through Roberts' ministry.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by littlemeanmama: No problem Mr. Bill What is your opinion of Oral Roberts?? I always hated his stunt of getting people to donate money to his church so God would not smite him.
quote:
In 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home" (a euphemism for death).[8][9] Some were fearful that he was referring to suicide given the passionate pleas and tear that accompanied his statement. He raised $9.1 million.[10] Later that year, he announced that God had raised the dead through Roberts' ministry.
Hi Little Mama,

Although we must look at the Christian community like all other communities -- a Baskin-Robbins of many flavors -- there are some flavors which never sit well on my palate. The most offensive of these is the Prosperity Theology of most television preachers today. And, if there is ever anyone who can lay claim to being the GodFather of Prosperity Theology -- it is Oral Roberts.

The one and only night I have gone to the TBN studio, which I lovingly call the Taj Mahal, because my friend, Leon Patillo, was singing on the show and invited Dory and me -- they had a clip of an interview with Oral Roberts. Roberts is too old and fragile to travel; so they did a video clip interview.

In the interview, Roberts praised his latest success story -- Joel Osteen, a graduate of Oral Roberts University -- for being his kind of preacher. This just confirmed what I already felt about Osteen -- or any other preacher who will make folks buy tickets just to hear him share the Gospel, or at least, his version of the Gospel -- which is not necessarily the Gospel shared by the apostle Paul.

So, Little Mama, I wish nothing bad toward Oral Roberts -- but, his Prosperity Theology is not the theology of the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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