Salvation - An Event Or An Ongoing Process?

After a week of going to every extreme to avoid answering David... Including using the excuse of the death of a loved one of a friend, while simultaneously posting your inane gibberish on all sorts of non-relative matters, the best you can do is hi-jack the thread and spew forth a ton of cut and paste... And in the process avoid answer David... Were I you (fortunately I am not) I would be ashamed...

S-I-G-H......

Hi Dove,

 

My Friend's beautiful 20-year old daughter was buried today.  She was killed when she lost control of her car on the way to work on Saturday morning, March 23.  Her car went off the freeway, rolled down an embankment, and hit a tree.  She was killed instantly.  Such a promising life was cut short, far too soon. 

 

Thank you for being so sensitive to such things.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Ahhh but you found lots of time to post your inane drivel on all manner of other subjects and spread your hatred and bigotry elsewhere...

Bill

I think it can be summed up as a former pastor of mine put it When I received Christ as my savior I was saved from the penalty of sin, I am being saved daily from the power of sin and one day I will be saved from the presence of sin.

 

AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  That is a great definition of salvation.  And, in that sense, daily being saved from the power of sin, through prayer and Scripture study, and looking forward to the day when we will be "caught up" into the clouds to meet our Redeemer (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and be free from the presence of sin -- is a "salvation" process.  It all began the moment we received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- and was saved, indwelled, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

Thank you for this clarification.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Amen, Nathan. Good to see you back!

Hi Nathan,

 

The main problem with your logic, and where it disagrees with what the apostle Paul wrote is -- that you are speaking of "working FOR our salvation" -- while Paul is telling us to "work OUT our salvation. 

 

What did Paul mean?  In many instances in the Bible Paul and other writers tell us that we cannot work FOR our salvation.  Ephesians 2:8-9 is a good example of that. 

 

So, what does Paul mean?  He means that once we are saved, we should keep working toward more maturity in our Christian walk, that we should be working toward growing more mature in our knowledge of God's Word.  In other words -- we are working TOWARD maturity in our God given free gift of salvation, eternal life.   He does not mean that we should be working FOR our salvation -- for that would contradict much of the Bible's teachings.

 

Pastor David Guzik explains it well in his Study Guide for Philippians 2:

 

D. Paul’s exhortation to the Philippians.

1. (12) Working out your own salvation.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

a. Therefore . . . as you have always obeyed: We should not miss the connection between the obedience Jesus showed (Philippians 2:8) and the obedience Paul expects of the Philippians (Philippians 2:12).

b. Work out your own salvation: We know that Paul does not mean “work so as to earn your own salvation.” Such a statement would contradict the whole of Paul’s gospel.

c. Work out your own salvation: What Paul does mean is he calls the Philippians to put forth real effort into their Christians lives. This is not to work their salvation in the sense of accomplishing it, but to work out their salvation - to see it evident in every area of their lives, to activate this salvation God freely gave them.

i. “The believer must finish, must carry to conclusion, must apply to its fullest consequences what is already given by God in principle . . . He must work out what God in His grace has worked in.” (Muller)

ii. “He exhorts as if he were an Arminian in addressing men. He prays as if he were a Calvinist in addressing God and feels no inconsistency in the two attitudes. Paul makes no attempt to reconcile divine sovereignty and human free agency, but boldly proclaims both.” (Robertson)

d. Now much more in my absence: In context, Paul asks for this Christian work ethic (not a works ethic) to be promoted all the more because of his absence.

e. With fear and trembling: Paul’s idea is not that we should live our Christian lives with a constant sense of fear and terror, but that we should live with a fear of failing to work out your own salvation.

 

My Friend, I pray this gives you a better understanding of salvation and how we gain "eternal security" in Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, If you believe and agree with red Barron then you are agreeing that salvation is ongoing. If you are asking in prayer, daily, for forgiveness, that means salvation occurs daily. If someone believed they were saved ONCE, and that one time is assurance of ALWAYS being saved, then they would only ask forgiveness ONCE. If one ask forgiveness everyday then they can not say OSAS. There would be a contradiction. Catholic Church doesn't say you work your way to heaven, it says that Christians have a RESPONSIBILITY to continue the work of Christ. Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, You can not be "saved" and live a lukewarm life. Jesus will spit you from his mouth. Lukewarm is referring to believers, not those on fire for God, not the atheist. Lukewarm believers are "lazy believers". Rev2 4,5 "Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy FIRST LOVE. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." For the Christian to leave his first love, is to backslide, to fall away, to leave the Lord and His service, and to go over to the service of sin, Satan and the world. The Lord calls upon all such to repent and do their first works (the fruits of love), or else - else what? "I will take thy candlestick out of his place." This is an ultimatum from the Lord. If the sinner responds, repents, returns to his first love, and does his first works, all is well and good - he will be saved. But it is his to choose. If he does not do this, his light is removed, goes out, and the backslider is lost. Bill, at this point I really want to know, do you asked for forgives daily, or often? Or did you repent ONCE? Maybe the term ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is misleading ?? If God is CONTINUALLY forgiving you, then you are CONTINUALLY being saved.

it was said earlier:  The main problem with your logic, and where it disagrees with what the apostle Paul wrote is -- that you are speaking of "working FOR our salvation" -- while Paul is telling us to "work OUT our salvation.   I meant what I said:  work out your salvation with fear and trembling!

Bill's interpretation is not accurate.  Let me give the correct interpretation of Philippians 2:12:  This expression means to make continued efforts at living the gospel and pursuing your heavenly reward.  The statement assumes that our initial salvation had nothing to do with our works, as noted in Ephesians 2:8-9, but that our final salvation depends on a lifetime of keeping the faith, following the commandments, persevering in good works, striving for holiness, and praying in earnest. 

This is a serious obligation, which we pursue with fear and trembling.  As St. Augustine said:  if you fear and tremble, you will not boast of your good works, since it is God who works them within you.

 

This is proper Scriptural exegesis.  As Paul, and most Christians realize, once saved, not always saved.  It is a process that we have to work at continually until we die.

Praised be Jesus forever!!!!

 

 

Your right Nathan we work for heavenly rewards but since salvation is a gift it cannot be attained or held by works. Let me put it this way if my salvation, my eternal destiny depends on me then I am as good as gone for I know that I am nothing but thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift. Yes I have a responsibility to work and to life a life that pleases Him as best I can. If I fail to do this I will suffer loss and be under His chastisement but Jesus paid my sin debt once and for all.

 

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Odd statement if a person can lose salvation.

Hearth my word. Means obey my word. So, actually not an odd statement, and salvation can be lost. Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward. "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

Hi David,

 

You tell us, "Heareth my word.  Means obey my word.  So, actually not an odd statement, and salvation can be lost."

 

I believe you are referring to:

 

John 5:24 (kjv), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

 

John 5:24 (nasb), "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

What does "eternal life" mean to you?  To me, it means -- ETERNAL LIFE, everlasting life.  Everlasting means never ending.  So, if a person has eternal life -- that eternal life will never end.

 

And, what are the requirements Jesus Christ gives us to attain that eternal life?  This Scripture verse tells us:  Hearing God's Word and believing!   Simple as that.  

 

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

You tell us, " and salvation can be lost."

 

If salvation can be lost -- then, it is NOT eternal, it is NOT everlasting.   So, was Jesus telling the truth when He said, "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life" -- or was He lying?

 

You tell me, "Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward."

 

Yes, that is true.  Works is not the cause of salvation; but, works should most certainly be the result of salvation.  After becoming a believer, after receiving the priceless gift of eternal life Christ has purchased with His blood -- if all a believer does is sit on his butt waiting for someone to ask him about Christ, that person will suffer from a malady commonly known as "spiritual constipation."  In other words, taking all that Christian knowledge in -- but, never expelling it to help others gain eternal life in Christ -- will surely clog your spiritual system.

 

1 Corinthians 3:12-15, "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.  (14) If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  (15) If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

What is the Refiner's Fire which will be testing believers' works?  Take a look at Malachi 2.

 

What works will be tested by the Refiner's Fire?  All that we do, or do not do, for the glory of God after receiving His precious gift of eternal life.

 

So, yes, absolutely!  A believer can lose heavenly rewards at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) in heaven during the Tribulation.  But, he/she will not lose their salvation -- for they will already be in heaven, the greatest of all rewards.

 

David, I pray that I have cleared up your misunderstanding regarding salvation and heavenly rewards.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, I don't have a misunderstanding. I understand the definition of eternal. I know that a soul that is in heaven will always be in heaven, eternal heavenly rewards can not be lost. I'm saying that WHILE ON EARTH a soul can be saved and then, through his/her free will drift from God and no longer be assured of a heavenly reward. Bill, please answer my question, should a believer ask forgiveness frequently, or do you repent ONCE for your sins ?

.

HoD, billie believes if he just says "Lord Lord" he has eternal life and there

isn't enough sin on his part to keep him out of Heaven.

"I pray this clears up your confusion". -bill House of David is one of the most spiritually focused people I "know". Biblically sound, pure of heart, and steadfast in faith. To say that house of David is confused is laughable. Never have I seen someone as dedicated to our Lord.

Bill could you please read my last post and answer me. Thank you.

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The multiple-judgment fiction of the premillennialist cultists, with its "Bema seat" judgment allegedly being a place for handing out rewards, finds its "justification" in a gross misapplication of 1 Cor. 3:13-15:   "... each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."  

 

As I have explained in detail more than once to the resident "End Times" distorter Bill Gray (and he has never responded substantively to this analysis), and as the context of the I Corinthian passage demands, a man's "loss" described therein is not the loss of some differential, higher-level "reward" such as  other, higher-performing Christians allegedly would be eligible to receive.

The passage is part of a larger context that makes it clear that the "work" discussed there is not the accumulation of all the various good works of the believer's lifetime.  The "work" of I Corinthians 3:13-15 is the human product of a man's evangelistic labor. Other work is not considered here. The "work" of this passage is not (as Bill avers) "[a]ll that we do, or do not do, for the glory of God after receiving His precious gift of eternal life." The concept taught here is simply that some of a Christian worker's converts (his "work") remain faithful, while others drift away and are lost.  The judgment will make it plain just which is which and the Christian worker who sees some of his "work" (his "converts") pronounced as lost will suffer that "loss," but nothing in this passage intimates that his status in the joys of heaven will be adjusted in proportion to such loss. THAT notion is a spurious scheme concocted to line up with the heretical systematics of dispensational premillennialism.  One judgment, folks.  Read John 5:25-29.

Bill, you write:

 

<<<This is telling us that our once we have, by grace, though faith, been saved -- if we are not working for the glory of God -- our faith has no strength.  It is weak.  Yet, because we are born-again, because we are Christ Followers -- we do not lose our eternal salvation.   As 1 Corinthians 3:15 tells us, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."  >>>

 

And thus you continue to embrace a hermeneutically defective interpretation of the allegory used by the apostle Paul.  "[E]ach man's work" does not occupy the place in his allegory to which you incorrectly assign it.

 

I have explained that passage in detail more than once to you, Bill Gray (the forum’s resident OSAS advocate), and you have has never responded substantively to this analysis.  As the context of the I Corinthian passage demands, a man's "loss", as clearly characterized therein, is not the loss of some differential, higher-level "reward" such as  other, higher-performing Christians allegedly would be eligible to receive.

 

The passage is part of a larger context that makes it unmistakably clear that the "work" discussed there is not the accumulation of all the various good works of the believer's lifetime.  The "work" of I Corinthians 3:13-15 is the human product of a man's evangelistic labor. Other work is not considered here. The "work" of this passage is not   "[a]ll that we do, or do not do, for the glory of God after receiving His precious gift of eternal life", as you have previously alleged. The concept taught here is simply that some of a Christian worker's converts (his "work") remain faithful, while others drift away and are lost.  The judgment will make it plain just which is which and the Christian worker who sees some of his "work" (his "converts") pronounced as lost will suffer that "loss," but nothing in this passage intimates that his status in the joys of heaven will be adjusted in proportion to such loss.  

 

I have searched this full discussion and do not find the exact quote you attribute to me.  However, maybe you have taken what I wrote -- and modified it to read the way you want.   So, let me give you what I believe is the quote which you have referenced:

 

Above, I wrote this response to David:

 

You tell me, "Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward."

 

Yes, that is true.  Works is not the cause of salvation; but, works should most certainly be the result of salvation.  After becoming a believer, after receiving the priceless gift of eternal life Christ has purchased with His blood -- if all a believer does is sit on his butt waiting for someone to ask him about Christ, that person will suffer from a malady commonly known as "spiritual constipation."  In other words, taking all that Christian knowledge in -- but, never expelling it to help others gain eternal life in Christ -- will surely clog your spiritual system.

 

1 Corinthians 3:12-15, "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.  (14) If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  (15) If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

What is the Refiner's Fire which will be testing believers' works?  Take a look at Malachi 2.

 

What works will be tested by the Refiner's Fire?  All that we do, or do not do, for the glory of God after receiving His precious gift of eternal life.

 

So, yes, absolutely!  A believer can lose heavenly rewards at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) in heaven during the Tribulation.  But, he/she will not lose their salvation -- for they will already be in heaven, the greatest of all rewards.

 

My Friend, you need to keep your quotes accurate -- or at least tell us you are paraphrasing what was originally written.

 

But, yes, I believe it is quite clear in Scripture that a person who is truly saved -- will never lose his/her salvation; for we have His promise of eternal life (John 6:47).   Also, He tells us that NO ONE can snatch us out of His hands, nor out of the Father's hands (John 10:28-29).   And, in the passage above, we are told that, even though our works do not pass the test of the Refiner's Fire, we who are believers -- WILL BE SAVED.

 

Yet, for some reason, my Friend -- you do not seem happy with His promise and you want to call Him a liar, saying that His promises are just hot air.  Personally, when Jesus Christ promises me something -- I take it to the bank, the Bank of Heaven.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Bill, the quote I attributed to you is from an earlier post.  But in this string, you are making essentially the same claim, specifically:

 

<<<"1 Corinthians 3:12-15, "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.  (14) If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.  (15) If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.">>>

 

 In your reply, Bill, you have once more  dodged the point that I have repeatedly made concerning this I Cor. 3 passage.

 

In this passage,  Paul is most assuredly discussing the building up of the church through evangelism. The specific  "work" to which he allegorically refers is the product of evangelism, namely the souls brought into the church. Some converts weaken and fail and leave the church and those are the "work" that will perish. But even if that occurs, the evangelist will not be held accountable for it, since each man or woman is accountable for his/her own soul before God. 

The evangelist or other Christian worker who sees his converts weaken and apostatize (of course, you don't believe that happens, given your adherence to that once saved-always saved tenet of Calvinism) suffers "loss" in seeing that, but he himself will be saved.

The word picture Paul paints is clear and unambiguous to those who will read the passage in context and not attempt to distort it, as you are doing now and as you have done  in times past. It is not describing the full range of "works" a Christian might accomplish during his/her life.  It is referring to the specific and particular work product of evangelization, consisting of converts to Christ, some of whom remain faithful and others of whom ultimately fall from the faith and are lost.  That goes against your OSAS doctrine, but that is the allegory the apostle has given us.

You'll never get Bill to take that passage in context.  To do so would knock the foundation out of his belief system. 

Another problem with once saved, always saved, is that it implies that once we are saved, we can't change our mind and reject salvation.  It implies that we no longer have free will once we are "saved."  But we can always choose to reject or accept God up to the moment we die, and so, as Paul says, we have to run the race, and complete the race, to win the prize:  salvation.  Praised be Jesus forever!!

 

While it is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ that all believers do evangelistic work, i.e., "Go. . . Be My witnesses in all the world" (Matt 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- this passage in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is looking at the individual's saving relationship with Christ, what have YOU done for the glory of God?   Yes, planting seeds of salvation is a part of that work done for the glory of God. 

 

Yet, you say, "The specific 'work' to which he allegorically refers is the product of evangelism, namely the souls brought into the church."

 

You and I CANNOT bring anyone into the church; only the Holy Spirit can do that.  You and I can plants the seeds of salvation; but, we cannot harvest those seeds.   The responsibility for saving a person rests solely upon the Holy Spirit.  All we can do is to plants the seeds, water the seeds, and keep pointing people to Jesus Christ.   At that point, the Holy Spirit takes over.

 

So, IF ANYONE could be saved, then turn away and deny Christ -- since only the Holy Spirit can save people, then the One who allowed them to fall away could only be the Holy Spirit. 

 

Contendah, do YOU believe that the Holy Spirit could lose a person whom He has brought into the family of God?   If so, then He is not omnipotent, all powerful, if He can lose a saved soul.  If that is true, that the Holy Spirit is not omnipotent -- then, He is not God.  Is that what you are saying?

 

Pastor David Guzik, past Director of Calvary College in Germany and presently senior pastor at Calvary Chapel Santa Barbara, writes in his Study Guide for 1 Corinthians 3:

http://www.blueletterbible.org...ians&ar=1Cr_3_10

 

d. The fire will test each one’s work:  When our work is tested by God, it will be revealed what kind of work it was.  Just as fire will destroy wood, hay, and straw, but not gold, silver, and precious stones, so the work of some will be revealed as nothing on that Day.

 

e. If anyone’s work:  The fire does not purify the worker, it tests their workmanship.  Roman Catholics use this passage to teach purgatory, the idea that when we die, we go to a place where we are purified by fire before we go to heaven.  The idea of purgatory has nothing to do with this passage, and nothing to do with any other passage in the Bible.  Purgatory is strictly a human invention, and denies the finished work of Jesus for the believer.

 

In a related Scripture passage, the apostle Paul tells us of this testing in 2 Corinthians 5:10:  "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."   

 

When we stand before Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Judgment Seat) -- the works that flowed from our salvation will be tested.  Notice that the works flow from, or are a result of our salvation -- not the cause of our salvation.

 

We have "couch potato" Christians -- those who are sitting on their couches waiting for someone to ask them about Christ.  That work is equivalent to wood, straw, and hay -- which will burn up, yet that Christian will be saved.  But, with few if any rewards in heaven.  Yet, the greatest reward will be that he/she IS in heaven; although, with a scorched butt.

 

On the other side, if we are active Christians, not ashamed of the Gospel, our church, or our Savior and not ashamed to point folks toward eternal life in Christ -- those works will be the equivalent of gold, silver, and precious stones -- easily withstanding the Refiner's Fire when we stand before our Lord.

 

My Friend, I pray that you have a clearer understanding of the Scripture passage found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and of the believers' "eternal security" in Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Red, I like you & enjoy your post, so what I'm about to say is meant respectfully. It's just the way I see things IF God/Bible/Jesus truly exist.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was saved many years ago at 3:00 in the morning, ask to be baptized immediately & was.

 

That scripture you gave said "hear" my word and "believe" on Him. Just because I choose to not hear His word or believe on Him anymore doesn't mean I wasn't saved those many years ago. It means that I do not want to hear or believe anymore. I gave up my salvation, I threw it away, did not want it anymore, so I am not saved anymore. I will go to hell when I die, not Heaven. I was not OSAS.

 Semi remember For ever&ever&ever&ever…………n^∞

_________

There's a bunch of "Christians" that should remember "For ever&ever&ever&ever…………n^∞ "

Hi Canade,

 

Actually, in my initial post in this discussion, I was quoting David's comment and my response to her:

 

In the discussion begun by my Roman Catholic Friend, David, titled "Can You Be Saved And Lose Eternal Life?" --  she tells us, "Those who read the record of the Gospels carefully will find repeated authority from Jesus to renounce the doctrine of eternal security.  In Luke 12:42-46 Christ described in another parable how a faithful servant could turn into an unfaithful one.  After asking, 'Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household. . .' 

 

Jesus answers His own question: 'That servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . . . he will make him ruler over all that he hath.'  Then Christ explains how that servant could lose his reward."

Please notice what my Friend has written -- "that servant could lose his reward."  That is what I have always written.  ALL believers will stand before Jesus Christ at the Believer's Judgment, a judgment of rewards, or lack of rewards.  As we are told in 1 Corinthians 3:15, a believer who has been a lazy "couch potato" believer will see his/her works burn up -- yet, he/she will be saved.  In other words, that lazy believer will receive few, if any, rewards.  But, his/her greatest reward -- that of eternal life in the presence of God -- is not lost.  Rewards in heaven are lost.  Salvation is not lost.

 

And, again, as you have shown it the fuller Scripture passage which you quote, it shows even more clearly that the servant who is ready, the believer, is rewarded -- as we see in verse ^37, "It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes."

 

But, the servant who knows and still is not ready, the non-believer, will suffer punishment.

 

The Bible does not contradict itself.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi all,

 

The graphic below is a good representation of salvation as found in the Bible.   This comes from my long time Christian brother and Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez, Ph.d Div, senior pastor at Church of Hope in Laguna Hills, California.

 

Alfredo I. Cortez, Jr. has been pastoring churches since 1990.  He was initially involved with the Baptist General Conference with churches that had a particular interest in Filipino-Americans in the United States.

In 1999 he founded Church of Hope (a non-denominational church fellowship).  The church was incorporated in 2001 and is recognized by the State of California as an independent non-profit ministry.

In 2003, he completed a Master’s degree in Theological Studies through Tyndale Theological Seminary and graduated with highest honors.  In September 2007, he finished his Doctor of Ministry.   He is currently working on (another) Th.M (Masters of Theology) track from Chafer Theological Seminary.

 

Doctrinal Position of the Church of Hope:

For the complete list, please visit their web site at

http://www.churchofhopeonthewe...t/doctrinal-position

 

The following basic doctrines contained in the Holy Scriptures are adopted:

1. The Holy Scriptures We believe the Holy Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God, authoritative, inerrant, and God-breathed. (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Matthew 5:18; John 16:12-13)

2. The Godhead We believe in one Triune God, existing in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, eternal in being, identical in nature, equal in power and glory and having the same attributes and perfections. (Deuteronomy 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:14)

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6. Salvation We believe that salvation in every dispensation is the gift of God brought to man by grace and received by personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ whose precious blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins (Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Ephesians 1:7).

7. The Eternal Security of Believers We believe that all believers are kept secure forever. (Romans 8:1, 38-39; John 10:27-30; 1 Corinthians 1:4-8)

8. The Church We believe that the Church, which is now the Body and will be the Bride of Christ, is a spiritual organism made up of all born-again believers of this Age irrespective of their affiliation with Christian organizations. (Ephesians 1:22-23; 5:25-27; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14)

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10. The Blessed Hope We believe that the next great event in the fulfillment of prophecy will be the coming of the Lord Jesus in the air to receive to Himself the dead in Christ and believers who are alive at His coming, otherwise known as the Rapture and Translation of the Church. (1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Titus 2:11-14)

11. The Tribulation We believe that the Rapture of the Church will be followed by the fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, the latter half of which is the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 9:27; Jeremiah 30:7; Matthew 24:15-21; Revelation 6:1-19; 21)

12. The Second Coming of Christ We believe that the Great Tribulation will be climaxed by the Premillennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth to set up His kingdom. (Zechariah 14:4-11; Matthew 24:15-25, 46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 20:6)

13. The Eternal State We believe that the human soul and human spirit of those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation do at death immediately pass into His presence, and there remain in conscious bliss until the resurrection of the body at His coming, when soul, human spirit and body reunited will be associated with Him forever in the glory.

 

But the souls of unbelievers remain after death in conscious misery until the final judgment of the great white throne at the close of the millennium, when the soul and body reunited will be cast into the lake of fire, not to be annihilated, but to be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. (Luke 16:19-26; 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 6-7; Revelation 20:11-15)

 

And, if you will take a close look at this teaching graphic below which Pastor Freddy prepared, you will see a very good explanation of the salvation of all believers:  I have been saved from the Penalty of Death (Justification) -- I am being saved from the Power of Sin (Sanctification) -- I will be saved from the Presence of Sin (Glorification).

 

I pray that this illustration helps all my Friends have a better understanding of what it means to have "eternal security" in Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

#6 - am I going to have to add a number for blatant bumping of your own posts when no one cares enough to respond?

Hi Crusty,

 

I could have posted my latest writing as a new discussion.  It does offer good insight to those who are interested in God and eternal life.

 

But, my Friend, I know how easily you are confused.  So, rather than cause you mental constipation -- I put it here so that you could easily find it and add your inane, childish comments.    My Friend, I am always willing to accommodate those who are reading challenged.

 

What you might try to do is go back, read only three sentences at one setting -- and then come back later for another three sentences.  Eventually you will be able to read several paragraphs -- and we all know that will be a great accomplishment for you.  So, can't you see that I am trying my best to work with you?

 

Bless your confused little old heart!

 

Bill

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I don't understand why anyone here would want to have any kind of discussion with Bill. He insults everyone on this forum. Hopefully, eventually everyone will just ignore him & he can just answer himself in his own topics.

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#9

Thanks, Crusty,

 

Appreciate your help!   Friends like you are rare; praise God!   God.   You know, He's the Big Guy who created us all in His image.   Yeah, I admit, somehow that image sure got goofed up in some cases -- but, we still love you.   Bless your heart!

 

Your good Friend,

 

Bill

Still just a big ol' #9.

Hi David,

 

Let's take a look at several Scripture passages:

 

John 5:24, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation --having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

John 10:28-29, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

You say that the phrase in John 5:24, "he who hears My word" -- means obeying His word,   From reading that alongside Ephesians 1:13 -- I would say that "hear My word" means exactly that -- hearing the message of Jesus Christ.

 

That would jive with Ephesians 1:13 which reads, "after listening to the message of truth. . . having also believed, you were sealed (saved)."

 

And, this agrees with John 3:16 and John 6:47 which tells us, "He/whoever believes HAS eternal life."  

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that we are saved by grace, through faith -- plus nothing else.   For, as this passage tells us -- it is a gift and NOT a result of ANY works.

 

And, John 10:28-29 puts the clincher on it -- NO ONE can snatch the believer out of Christ's hands, nor out of the Fathers.   And, my Friend -- NO ONE means, NO ONE, not even the believer.

 

To wrap this up, what does eternal mean to you?  To me, and I know the meaning is the same in the Bible -- eternal means "never ending."   So, when Christ tells us we HAVE eternal life -- He means that we have life in Him which will NEVER end.   To me, that is most certainly "eternal security" in Christ.

 

Can a person, as you said above, lose eternal rewards?  Yes!  Absolutely, for the Believers' Judgment is a judgment of rewards or lack of rewards.  But, the greatest reward is that, when the Believers' Judgment happens -- we will already be in heaven.

 

And, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 affirms this.  That is exactly the meaning of 1 Corinthians 3:15, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

 

Our rewards may burn up, or be removed -- but, we, the believers WILL be saved.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill