SALVATION

Hi Slice,

 

You and I are on the same Biblical track.  Eternal security, i.e., "once saved, always saved" is most certainly Biblical.  Let me give you another source which verifies this.  I have quoted and explained all these Bible passages a number of times.  But, even though I do -- some of our Friends still say, "I don't believe you!"  So, let me suggest this reading:

 

.

I believe what Paul is saying is that the gospel frees us as believers from

dependence on astrologers. Present things and future things refer to

astrological readings.

 

Romans 8: 36-39

 

36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We

are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.)

37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us.

38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,

nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

I am sure---  I am persuaded; as it is in the Greek, pepeismai.

 

For the millionth and oneth time, OSAS isn't Biblical

 

 

===================

Run away from what?

Hi Vic,

 

You suggest, "I believe what Paul is saying is that the gospel frees us as believers from dependence on astrologers.  Present things and future things refer to astrological readings."

 

There is absolutely nothing in this Scripture passage which pertains in any way to astrologers or to astrological reading.

 

In Romans 8:31-34 we are assured that our salvation is from and through Jesus Christ:

 

Romans 8:31-34, "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?  (32) He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?  (33) Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.  (34) Who is he who condemns?  It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."

 

Then, in Romans 8:35-36, we are assured that no tribulations or persecutions will separate us from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ:

 

Romans 8:35-36, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  (36) As it is written: 'For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.' "

 

Then, in Romans 8:37-39, we are told that nothing in heaven or on earth can separate us from Jesus Christ -- for we have His promise of eternal life:

Romans 8:37-39, "Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.  (38) For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, (39) nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What are the principalities and powers Paul mentions here?

 

Question: "What are principalities and powers?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/pr...ties-and-powers.html

Answer:  The phrase “principalities and powers” occurs six times in the Bible, always in the King James Version and its derivatives (NKJV, MKJV).  Other versions translate it variously as “rulers and authorities,” “forces and authorities,” and “rulers and powers.” 

 

In every place where the phrase appears, the contexts make it clear that it refers to the vast array of evil and malicious spirits who make war against the people of God.  The principalities and powers of Satan are in view here, powers that wield power in the unseen realms to oppose everything and everyone that is of God.

The first mention of principalities and powers is in Romans 8:37-39: “No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

 

These verses are about the victory Christ has won over all the forces ranged against us.  We are “more than conquerors” because no force -- not life, not death, not angels, not demons, indeed nothing -- can separate us from the love of God."  The “powers” referred to here are those with miraculous powers, whether false teachers and prophets or the very demonic entities that empower them. 

 

What is clear is that, whoever they are, they cannot separate us from the love of God.  Victory is assured.  It would be unfortunate to dwell on identifying the powers and miss the main thrust of the verse which is assurance about what God has done to save us.

Paul is telling us that nothing on earth or in heaven -- no demonic spirits, no fallen angels, none of Satan's team -- can separate us from God.

 

So, my Friend, I am not sure where you found astrologers or astrological readings in that Scripture passage -- for the apostle Paul sure did not include those.

 

And, maybe YOU do not have "eternal security" in Christ -- but, I KNOW THAT I DO!   If you do not know this for yourself -- maybe you need to do some soul searching.  Or maybe find a good Baptist church fellowship and get involved in their Bible studies.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

-----------------

You really don't understand Rom 8: 36-39 billie.

 

Romans 8: 36-39

 

36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We

are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.)

37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us.

38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,

nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

billie, what does 8: 28-29 mean?

 

28 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are

called according to his purpose.

 

29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the

image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

 

 

Since you tell me that I do not understand Romans 8: 36-39; then maybe YOU will explain to us what that Scripture passage means.  And please show us, in that passage where YOU found astrologers and astrology readings.

 

And, since Romans 8:28-29 also have absolutely NOTHING to do with astrology and astrology readings -- maybe you can enlighten us as to why you suddenly lumped those verses in with our discussion of Romans 8:36-39.

 

I will be happy to discuss the passage found in Romans 8:28-29 if you like.  So, you go ahead and tell us what you believe it means; then, I will comment.   Are you up to that?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Well, Vic, my Friend,

 

Honestly, I never expected you to explain what you meant by those verses.   How could you, when you have NO IDEA what they really mean?  If you cannot do a 100% copy/paste -- you have nothing to say.

 

But, of course you do have your favorite response -- name calling and swearing.  You have learned you Catechism well.

 

My Friend, YOU are the best proof against Roman Catholicism.  If I were any of our other Roman Catholic Forum Friends, I would be hanging my head in shame EVERY time you post on the Religion Forum.  For you do show Roman Catholicism in a very bad light.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Corinthians 10 :12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall . What are they talking about falling from Grace? if you fall from grace are you still saved unless you confess your sin and repent? OSAS isn't taught in the Bible.

WTH??

 

You tell us, "OSAS isn't taught in the Bible."

 

What does this Scripture passage say to you?

 

John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

The way I interpret this passage is:

 

"My sheep" -- means Christian believers, all who have put their faith in Jesus Christ.

 

"and I give eternal life to them" -- means exactly what He said -- He gives ETERNAL life to all His sheep, all believers.   Eternal can only mean eternal, forever, never ending.  If eternal did not mean never ending -- then, it would have some end point.  In such a case, wouldn't Jesus have said, "and I give eternal life to them -- UNTIL. . . "     In other words, UNTIL they sin, UNTIL they change their minds, UNTIL I change My mind, etc.   No, my Friend, eternal an only mean one thing -- ETERNAL.

 

"no one will snatch them out of My hand" and "and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"  --   can ONLY mean -- NO ONE!   Notice that Jesus did not say, ""no one, except the believer himself, or Satan, or the man down the street, will snatch them out of My hand"

 

No, when Jesus said NO ONE can snatch believers out of His and the Father's hands -- He meant exactly what He said -- NO ONE!

 

This most definitely sounds to me like we have "eternal security" in Christ, i.e., once saved, always saved.    Also, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 also confirm that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption -- the day we die in this mortal body, or are Raptured from this mortal body.

 

You quote 1 Corinthians 10:12, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall."

 

But, you neglect to include this verse which is very much a part of that thought:

 

1 Corinthians 10:13, "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

 

In other words, even though all people are sinners, including believers -- God does protect His children and gives us a way to endure -- so that we do not fall away from Him.   Once we become a child of God -- HE KEEPS US!   That, my Friend, IS ETERNAL SECURITY!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

John 8: 51

Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see

death for ever.......( the trick is you must keep his word or the deal is off.)

 

John 5: 14

14  Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold

thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.

( like you could lose you salvation)

 

The Bible is full of these warnings

 

Jn 10: 26-28

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me.

28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and

no man shall pluck them out of my hand.

.........(And I can walk away from God, and lose myself)

 

The Bible doesn't teach OSAS. It goes against all common sense.

 

Hi Vic,

Let's examine your Scriptural proof texts:

You offer, "John 8:51, 'Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.......'   The trick is you must keep his word or the deal is off."

John 8:51 (nasb), “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 8:52-53, "The Jews said to Him, 'Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death."  Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died?  The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?' "

 

What is Jesus really telling us in this Scripture verse?

The word "keep" in Greek is tereo which means:  (1) to attend to carefully, take care of, (2) to guard, (3) to observe.   So, what is Jesus telling us when He says, "if anyone keeps My word he will never see death”?

Let me refer you to the writing of Wayne Huizinga:

Sermon on John 8:51

By Rev W Huizinga, Minister-emeritus of the Free Reformed Church of Armadale, Western Australia, Author of "The Forerunner - John the Baptist" - Pro Ecclesia Publishers

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t...98,d.cGE&cad=rja

If you abide in His word, or, if you keep His word, you prove to be true followers of Jesus.  What does it mean to keep His word? Normally we would think of adhering to the Gospel, maintaining the truth of the Bible.  That is quite correct, but we need to be more specific.  In the context keeping His word has to do with the person of Jesus.  What do you believe about Jesus?

You must stay with the truth that Jesus is the Son of God, who has come down from the Father to carry out the Father’s instructions.  Now this is what the Jews refuse to accept.  All they see is a normal man.  Others contend that his miracles attest for Him.  Who has done more mighty works than Jesus?  Yet the majority, especially among the leaders, stubbornly resist Jesus’ teachings. 

 

They do not consider Him as anything special.  All His claims are rubbish, especially when He starts to claim that He exists before Abraham lived.  If they had God as Father, they would listen to what Jesus has to say.  But they do not believe.  They are not of the heavenly Father, but rather belong to the father of lies!  Yes, this is the hard criticism Jesus levels against the Jews.  "He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God" (John 8:47).

We come to our second point.  Jesus gives the listening Jews a strong incentive.  Those who keep My word shall never see death.  If you believe firmly in Jesus’ teachings about Himself, you shall not see death.  Never!  For Jesus sets you free, truly free.  Death cannot imprison you.  You are forever free!

The Jews taunt him for this saying.  Abraham is dead.  The prophets died.  Yet Jesus says whoever keeps his words shall never see death.  "You mean to say that Abraham and the prophets were unbelievers?," ask the Jews.  For the prophets died.  Does it not really raise the question, what Jesus means by not seeing death?

Jesus underlines his words with "truly, truly I say to you" or "most assuredly, I say to you."  His claim comes with the force of an oath.  Pay attention to what I say, Jesus claims.  For it is true, worthy of full acceptance.  It is an astounding claim. 

 

No wonder that the Jews, who did not believe Him, pointed to the prophets and to Abraham.  They would never see death?. . .  Jesus does not mean they will not physically die.  But His point is that He sets them free to live.  Death will no longer has mastery over them. They will continue to live.  They will go from one level of life to another, forever.

 

Spiritual death and physical death are totally different.  In this mortal life, ALL people have died, or will die.  The only exception to that will be those who are Raptured from this mortal body.  Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tell us that, upon believing, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and kept sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption by our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ.

Next, my Friend, you offer, "John 5: 14, 'Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.'   Like you could lose you salvation."

So, what is happening in this Scripture passage?

John 5:10-12, "So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, 'It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.'    But he answered them, 'He who made me well was the one who said to me, "Pick up your pallet and walk." '  They asked him, 'Who is the man who said to you, "Pick up your pallet and walk"?' "

 

John 5:13-14, "But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place.  Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, 'Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.' "

This is the story of Jesus healing the man at the Bethesda Sheep Gate who had been ill for 36 years.  Although the man did not know Jesus, he was so desperate for someone to help him -- he was ready to believe this man, Jesus, could heal him.  And, Jesus did heal him, physically.   But, the man was not a Christian believer.  How could he be -- for he did not even know who it was that healed him.

Jesus searched out the man in the temple -- for Jesus knew that the man had been healed physically; but, that he still needed to be healed spiritually.  That is the "worse" thing that Christ was warning about -- staying lost spiritually.

Then, you tell me, "The Bible is full of these warnings.  John 10: 26-28, '26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.  27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand.' "  And I can walk away from God, and lose myself."

I am glad you have chosen to study that Scripture passage.  But, let's look at rest of the thought being expressed in this confrontation Jesus has with the Jews of the temple:

First, Jesus points out the unbelief of those Jews:

John 10:22-26, "At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.  The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense?  If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.'  Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.  But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.' "

Then, He tells them of the "eternal security" which true believers find in Christ:

John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.  I and the Father are one."

 

You say that you can walk away from God and lose yourself.  That would mean that you never were a believer if you could do that.   Jesus tells us, "I give ETERNAL life to them."   Eternal means never ending; so, if He gave you eternal life -- that eternal life would never end.  Not even you could end it.

Jesus tells us that NO ONE can snatch the believer out of His hands, nor out of the Father's hands.   My Friend, NO ONE means NO ONE, which includes the believer himself.  NO ONE is an absolute statement.  And, it means:  NO ONE!

Finally, you make the erroneous declaration, "The Bible doesn't teach OSAS.  It goes against all common sense."

In the indoctrinated, brain washed mind of a Liberal believer, which includes most Roman Catholics -- maybe "eternal security" in Christ does not make sense.  But, anyone who truly understands and believes God's Written Word, the Bible -- it makes total sense. 

 

How can a person walk away from God -- if that person has been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30)?  If you believe that you can break the seal of the Holy Spirit -- then you are denying His attribute of Omnipotence; you are saying the God the Holy Spirit is NOT all powerful.  Is that what you truly believe?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

The only way once saved, always saved could be true is if we had no free will. We can always choose to reject God, even up to the moment of death. Even if we've vern sealed with the Holy Spirit. We have free will, so we are not always saved! Praised be Jesus forever!

OSAS can't be proven Biblically. But it's lied about and the Bible is twisted

in an attempt to sell this heresy. It has never been shown in the Bible.

==================

Choose to reject your god? If you believe that your god is so wonderful and such, why would anyone that believed in him "choose to reject" him?  Do you, personally, think people can lose their belief, or do you think it's only a choice not to believe? Wouldn't that mean that people only choose to believe? No claiming that someone in a church upset them, something awful happened to them, they wanted to run wild, none of that, do you think people can lose their belief? Most people who lose their belief do it over a period of years. It's not that they wake up one morning and decide to use that "free will" you speak of to suddenly decide not to believe. What's the difference in two people who are going through bad times, trying to cope with life, and one "decides or chooses" to believe and turn it "over to god", and things get better for them, while the other never thinks to turn to a god or "get religion", but instead decides to stop obsessing on the negatives, move forward, get past it, work to make it better, and things do get better for them? The same goes for praying. Plenty of people pray and never get relief. Plenty of people never think of praying and do get relief. What is your opinion about that?

Hi Nathan,

 

What does "free will" mean to you?  To me, it is faculty to choose to follow Christ, or to continue following the world and deny Christ.

 

When I chose to follow Christ, I did not become a robot, I still had my "free will."   But, just as when a person, using his/her "free will" -- chooses to jump off a high rise building -- once that commitment is made, there is no "do over."    You have made a commitment and now you must follow it to its natural conclusion.

 

The same with following Christ.  When we, through our God given gift of "free will" choose to follow Christ, the Holy Spirit seals us (Ephesians 1:13).   That seal is like jumping off the building -- once committed, no going back.  And, that is confirmed in Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

What is our "day of redemption?"   It is the day we die in this mortal body -- or the day we are Raptured from this mortal body.  And, of course, when either happens -- we will be in heaven with no worries about losing anything.

 

Then, my Friend, you tell me, "Even if we've vern (been) sealed with the Holy Spirit.  We have free will, so we are not always saved!"

 

The Holy Spirit, in the Bible, tells us we ARE sealed by the Holy Spirit -- until the day of our redemption.  You say we are not!  So, who is right -- you or the Holy Spirit.   For a saved and sealed person to be able to break that seal -- that would mean that God the Holy Spirit is NOT OMNIPOTENT, not all powerful.  Is that what you are telling me; that God is not omnipotent?

 

If so, you seriously need to find another Bible teacher -- for the one who is teaching you is denying God and His Written Word.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

God wants us to love Him of our own free will. He is omnipotent, but He does not force us to love Him. Up to the moment of our death, we can reject Him or love Him. We have free will. We can choose earthly things and reject Him! We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling! Once saved always saved is an invention of man, not God. Praised be Jesus forever!

Nathan, you just gave a bill gray answer. In other words, no answer at all, just the same things over and over.

Hi Nathan,

 

Scriptures tells us that it is God that does the choosing, not us. 

 

Joh_15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 

 

Joh_15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 

 

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

Seriously, where do you all get this idea that WE must choose Him? A bit vain and high minded don't you think? Is it so hard to believe these Scriptures? Do you believe there are other Scriptures out there that contradict those I posted above?

 

How is it possible for God to be all powerful if we have such a God thwarting power called "free will" ? 

 

I agree God does not force us to love Him, but is it possible He can INSPIRE us to love him? He doesn't have to force us, because He is God. 

 

About this once saved always saved bit. Of course once saved always saved is true. The question is WHEN are you saved. 

______

No, He doesn't force us to love Him. He uses the Hell hole he made to scare people into thinking they love Him. Such a horrible thing to make a child believe.

 

I used to love God, even though it's hard to love someone you don't know. You read about God in this Book he supposedly told men to write, & after reading about Him, you're supposed to love Him. Then after I grew up & started using my brain, I saw Him to be a liar, an abuser & the love went away. I know a couple of people on this forum playing the Christian card that will say if I stopped loving him then I never loved Him at all.

If you love someone, & that someone starts treating you horribly, after awhile you won't love him/her anymore. Same thing with God, you can't love someone that lies to you daily, & threatens you.

 

If OSAS is true, then there's a bunch of back sliders & Hell raisers gonna make it to heaven. According to your OSAS, I'll be in Heaven too.

Nathan, my Friend,

 

All you are doing is quoting your Vatican given mantra.   You have not addressed any of the Scripture I suggested to you and Vic.   Like a good Buddhist or Hare Krishna, all you do is close your eyes and keep repeating your mantra.   You have your mantra -- and Vic has his childish name calling.

 

You say that God is omnipotent.  Then you say that we can break the seal of the Holy Spirit and evict Him.  Which is it?  Is the Holy Spirit omnipotent -- or do we have a greater power, the power to evict Him and break the seal He has put on us (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).  The Bible tells us we are sealed "for the day of our redemption" -- you say, "No, I can break that seal."   So, who is omnipotent -- you or the Holy Spirit.

 

And, just who is included in the NO ONE found in John 10:27-29?

 

But, if that works for the two of you -- what can I say?  The Buddhist, Hare Krishna, and you seem happy.  Personally, I am happier when I am in God's Word -- the sole authority of salvation and Christian living.  At least then I know I am on solid ground and on my way to eternal life with Christ.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean that He uses that power to force us into anything. We do have free will. We do have a choice! That's is how God made us! Love must be freely chosen and given. God doesn't force us. That is one of the reasons why osas is a lie. That and the fact that it is not biblical. You have to work out your salvation, and finish the race. Praised be Jesus forever!

Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean that He uses that power to force us into anything. We do have free will. We do have a choice! That's is how God made us! Love must be freely chosen and given. God doesn't force us. That is one of the reasons why osas is a lie. That and the fact that it is not biblical. You have to work out your salvation, and finish the race. Praised be Jesus forever!

Hi Nathan,

 

Once more, all you are doing is repeating, over and over, your Vatican Mantras -- with no Scriptural support.  I could stand beside a tall building and keep repeating, "I am taller than you!   I am taller than You!" -- until I am blue in the face.  But, that would not make me taller than the building -- other than in my own mind.  That is the power, and weakness, of mantras.  All they do is fool the person who keeps repeating them.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Nathan, billie has already shown his lack of Bible knowledge and he knows

the Vatican has nothing to do this when it concerns the Bible only.

The habitual liar that he is shows how much he needs that mythical free

ticket to Heaven. His only chance ain't gonna happen. lolololololololooool

Totally agree Nathan. We do have to run and finish the race. But it is God in you that does the working.

 

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 

 

Doesnt that just totally throw out the theory of "free will"? 

 

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 

 

All is of God, not your phantom "free will".

 

Point is no one is saved in this human flesh, or else we wouldnt still be in this human flesh if we were saved. It is only when you are in finally in His image and totally sin free that you can be called saved. So then your saved and will always be saved from sin and death. 

Hi all,

 

As usual, Vic only spews his inane, childish prattle.  But, this time, our New Age Universalist Friend, GD, jumps in to give his "there is no hell" theology response.

 

I was going to write my own response to GD's pulling of Philippians 2:13 out of the air and interpreting it according to the Herbert W. Armstrong/L Ray. Smith Universalist teachings.  But, I believe I have found a much better, real life application of what it means to do the will of God.

 

Philippians 2:13 (nasb), "For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

 

 

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phl 2:13 kjv).

That is what it is all about.  God said to Jeremiah when Israel had totally failed in the keeping of the law, "There is going to come a day, Jeremiah, when I am no longer going to write the law on these tables of stone, but I am going to write my law in the fleshly tablets of their heart." It is He who works in you to will.

How does God reveal His will to me?  He reveals His will by the desires He places in my heart, not the desires that I necessarily have in my heart that come from me.  But He places in my heart His desires; it this way that He works His will in us.  God puts in my heart to do something.  God gives me the desire, the yearning to do a particular work, to go to a particular place.  And I discover that which I desire is actually God's revealing to my heart what He wants me to do.  And so, He puts it in me to will, and then He gives me the capacity to do of His good pleasure.

Several years ago I was going to speak in Ventura on a Sunday evening.  I decided to go up on Saturday and spend the night with my Aunt Lois in Santa Barbara.   She makes such fabulous enchiladas, so, I called her and said, "Put the enchiladas on.  I will be up for dinner and spend the night with you.  Then I will come back to Ventura tomorrow night and speak."

 

I left for Santa Barbara, heading up Freeway 405 toward the Ventura Freeway.  But, when I got to Sunset Boulevard I thought, "This is such a beautiful day.  I might as well drive along the coast.  I'll drive down Sunset Boulevard to Pacific Coast Highway.  It is such a beautiful day, I'll just put the top down and cruise up through Malibu, and go to Santa Barbara that way.  That way, I can see the ocean.  I love to stop at Point Mugu and watch the surf come in.  And I love the beauty of that drive."   So, I thought, "I just want to drive up the coast."

 

I drove all the way down Sunset Boulevard, and as I was driving along Sunset Boulevard, I thought, "I don't remember the drive being this long down Sunset to the Coast.   I probably made a mistake.  I probably should have stayed on the inland route.  Oh, well."

As I pulled onto Coast Highway, there was a couple hitchhiking.  I felt rather selfish in this convertible all by myself, and there they are hitchhiking.  I don't pick up hitchhikers as a rule, but I stopped and I picked them up. 

 

As we drove, I started to share with them about Jesus Christ.  By the time we got to Ventura, we pulled over to the side of the road and they prayed to receive the Lord.  As I drove by the church where I would be speaking the next night, I said, "If you show up here tomorrow night, I will be happy to see you again."  

 

The fellow was looking for a job.  He was a farmer (agricultural worker) and had been looking for a job in Los Angeles.  I told him, "They don't really have farms in Los Angeles."   So, I bid them farewell, drove on up to Santa Barbara, and like so many experiences, I thought, "Well, probably I will never see them again."

 

But, the next night, when I was speaking at the church speaking and gave the invitation -- they were there and came forward to accept Jesus Christ publicly.  The church elder who met them to pray with them and explain what had happened to them -- just happened to be the foreman of the Del Mar Lymanair Ranch.  And, as it happened, he did need an extra farm hand.

 

The job offered housing and everything else.  They came up to me afterwards, with Mr. Jenkins, and told me, "Guess what has happened to us?  This man who prayed with us is the foreman of a ranch.  And he has given us a job."  

 

I thought back to yesterday, as I was driving to Santa Barbare and got the sudden inspiration, "Why not go by the coast."  I realized it was God who had put that thought into my heart, to accomplish His will.   That thought was actually planted by the Lord, because He knew that that couple from Montana was desperate and in need -- basically, for a real life changing experience with Jesus Christ.  And they were waiting for someone to come along and share the truth with them.

And so, it is God who works in you, both to know His will, and then to do His will.  He gives us the capacity to do.   But, first, He plants His will in your heart.  This is the way that God leads us.  So often, it is by a sudden inspiration, a thought, an idea.  God is working in you to will, and then to do His will.

 

While I have had many experiences of God planting and working His will in my life; I believe this one from Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is a beautiful example of God's will.

 

God's will does not negate our "free will" -- it uses that faculty to accomplish His will in our lives.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

__________

Say what!!??!?

 

Acts 2:38 says to "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" 

 

When Acts spoke of those three thousand people being saved & baptized, do you believe the Bible is telling a lie? Unsaved people heard Peter's sermon, did what Peter told them to do, and were saved that very day, those people weren't dead. They were in their human flesh.

 

 

 

In Luke, why did Jesus say, "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Was He not speaking to people in their human flesh? If you can’t be saved until the day you die, what do you think repent & perish means?

 

 

 

Saul of Tarsus after seeing the vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus was told "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord”. He wasn’t dead when he was told to arise & be baptized. he was in his human flesh.

 

 

 

But semi, when Jesus said repent and be saved, did he mean you only have
70 chances or did he say more than 70? People might sin later and need to

repent again. Can someone be "Grandfathered" in under a once in a life

time repentance and not worry about all those sins later in life?

 

Semi,

 

I never said we couldn't repent of our sins. Kinda like Invictus said, you will continue to sin all your life. 

 

1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

 

I do believe God can bring us to a place where sin no longer has dominion/rule over us. Until we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye, we will continue to sin for as long as we are in the flesh. God willing less and less as time goes by. 

 

It took the Apostle Paul a long time before he could say this. 

 

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

By this time he had finished the race and overcame (through Jesus) the pulls of the flesh to the point it no longer had rule over him. 

 

That is one of the reason why I believe salvation is an ongoing process throughout ones lifetime from when his eyes were first opened. 

 

As for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that is another topic that speaks of being enabled to understand the Word of God. 

Hi GD,

 

You tell us, "That is one of the reason why I believe salvation is an ongoing process throughout ones lifetime from when his eyes were first opened."

 

You say salvation is a process, yet Ephesians 1:13-14 tell us that the moment we believe we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit.  If we are not saved at that moment -- why would the Holy Spirit seal us in Christ?   And, verse 14, along with Ephesians 4:30 tells us we are SEALED for, or until, the day of our redemption>

 

Ephesians 1:13-14, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

When is the day of our redemption?  It is the day that our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ, comes for us -- to redeem us.  That will happen the moment we die in this mortal body -- or the day when Christ comes to Rapture His church out of this mortal life.

 

So, this SEALING seems to me to be a specific time, the moment we believe.  That is the moment we are Justified before God.

 

What happens when we are redeemed?   If it is in death, our bodies go into the grave but our spirit goes directly into heaven to be with our Lord. 

 

2 Corinthians 5:6-8, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

That is the goal of all believers -- to be with our Lord.  And, the moment we leave this mortal body -- we will be with Him.  That, my Friend, is indeed salvation -- eternal security in Christ.

 

In a sense, full salvation is a process:  (1) the moment we believe, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and we are Justified, imputed the righteousness of Christ and made to appear before God as Justified (Just As If We Had Never Sinned). 

 

Then, (2) is our Sanctification, being "set aside" for God.  During this period as believers on earth, we strive to grow in our knowledge of God's Word, we grow in our faith, and we grow in our obedience to Him. 

 

Finally, (3) when we die or are Raptured, we will be Glorified, i.e., given our glorified, immortal, eternal bodies so that we may stand before God in heaven. 

 

That, my Friend, is Salvation.  The chart below from my good Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez, illustrates this process very well.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

________

It's a foolish man that believes in OSAS. 

semi's right gd, you need to be saved in the flesh to take the next step up

to your salvation. Or you might take the next step down.

 

Paul knew he was about to donate his head. As a Roman citizen, this was

a more humane way of execution than non citizens of Rome. As in the

case of Peter, a catholic pope, crucifixion was common.

 

If you aren't going home semi, would it be OK if I got your piece of angel
food cake?