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Why would he want to repent you ask semi? Because repenting is part of the process. It's not the final step, but quite possibly the beginning. 

 

2Co 7:10  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

I don't believe it was a coincidence Paul said that just before his death. Years before he spoke of a similar race/course to run, a good fight to fight and a crown to gain. 

 

1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
1Co 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
1Co 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

And again.

 

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
Heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

 

You know I dont believe in hell (eternal torture) semi, so what do you think I believe we are actually saved from? No where in Scripture does it say we are saved from hell. It tells us we are saved from sin and death. Here are a few.

 

Rom_8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 

 

Mat 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 

 

Psa 130:8  And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. 

 

Tit 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 

 

Psa 49:15  But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

 

2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

 

And many more. 

 

How can we be saved in a past tense manner if we continue to sin? We can be on the road to salvation by repenting as a start. 

Mr Gray,

 

I cannot agree with your interpretation of those Scripture. Here is someone I do agree with, cause he agrees with Scriptures and I have found this to be so in my own studies.

 

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

 

DO BELIEVERS ALREADY POSSESS EONIAN LIFE?

How much eonian life do we have in us? Will we not ever die since we have "eonian life" abiding in us at present? Do we have Scripture on that? No we don’t. But do we have a Scripture that says the amount of "life" which we do have in us is a sure promise that we WILL LIVE with Jesus throughout the coming eons? Yes we do:

"…ye are sealed with that holy SPIRIT of promise [‘promise’ of WHAT?] which is the EARNEST [Gk: ‘down payment or deposit’] of our [future] inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14.)

Well there it is, UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession." And when do we get that? We were already reading about it in I Cor. 15. Let’s read this entire section of Scripture as it is the whole plan of God from the creation of Adam down to the "redemption of the purchased possession" of the Few Chosen Elect Saints of God:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

"As is the earthy, such are they also which are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have born the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep [According to Christendom, no one will ever sleep. They contradict by saying there is no such thing as sleep in death, but they lie: Psalm 13:3, ‘Consider and hear me O my God…lest I sleep the sleep OF DEATH’], but we shall all be changed [When? This is so important. WHEN shall we be changed? At the instant that all believers DIE? NO…], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [Then, and only then, and at NO OTHER TIME IN HISTORY!]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead [The ‘dead,’ mind you, not the living, but the dead] shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This is the reason we continue to live after the eons are over. Not because we were promised something called "eternal or everlasting life," but because at the resurrection we will be given "incorruption and immortality," which means "death-less-ness."

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

When? When will death be "swallowed up in victory?" When we die? Do people really die and go to heaven? Where do the Scriptures teach any such pagan doctrine? It is at "the resurrection of the dead" that death is swallowed up in victory, and not one second earlier. Then, we will literally "be saved" as all the Scriptures teach.

 

 

PAUL KNEW THAT DECEASED BELIEVERS ARE DEAD

 

Let’s be clear that the believing saints of Paul’s day who had previously passed away, were absolutely dead when Paul speaks of them.

 

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive [How can they be made alive if as John 11:26 says in the King James, that those in Christ ‘never die?’.] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s [These are those who belong to and believe in Christ. But when are we told this ‘afterward’ will be? At the time of the death? No. Let’s read it…] at His coming(I Cor. 15:22-23.)

 

And just when is this "resurrection of the dead" for the saints who "are Christ’s?" We read it above. Martha said it: "at the last day." And so the phrase "at the last day," and "at His coming," are one and the same event.

 

Where do we read in Scripture that at death or in death we "shall put on immortality?" Or that at death or in death we will, "be like Him?" Or where do we read that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the lord" There is no such Scripture. That Scripture is virtually always misquoted. These things do not happen at death or in death or immediately after death. Yes, it is true that, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels…," but it is not the fullness of what we shall be.

 

We already read that:

 

"…ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST [the ‘earnest’ is the down payment or interest only] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13a & 14.)

 

The word "until" is a time word meaning "indicating the point reached"—Strong’s Greek Dictionary. Well when do the Scriptures clearly tell us this "point is reached?" Certainly not at death, in death, or shortly after death. No, here is the clear Scriptural truth as to when our indicated point of redemption is reached and we will finally be fully "like Him," not as an earnest or down payment, but rather paid in full.

 

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be [If not now, when? At or in death? No…]: but we know that when He shall APPEAR, we shall BE LIKE HIM: for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2.)

 

There is our answer. So much for the pagan theory about immortal souls flying off to heaven at death

 

Hi GD,

 

So, here you go again -- trying to slip in a combination of your New Age Urantia Book religion mixed with a large dose of your Universalism religion -- to give us the "eonian life."

 

Well, my Friend, if you happy following such religions -- then, bless you, follow whatever you want.  But, I believe I will stick with the God's Written Word, the Bible -- and not some mixture of New Age extraterrestrial teaching mixed with Herbert W. Armstrong/L. Ray Smith Universalism religion.

 

And, any time you come here waving your New Age Urantia Book/Universalism flag -- i will continue to raise a Red Flag warning against your false teachings.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Believe Now - Or Later

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Originally Posted by gdriggs:

Why would he want to repent you ask semi? Because repenting is part of the process. It's not the final step, but quite possibly the beginning.

________
Repenting comes right before accepting Jesus as your Savior, thus being saved, & you don't have to be dead before you can be saved. (IF any of it is true)
The part of me that questions the truth of the Bible/God/religion in general, respectively disagrees with you. We all should be able to disagree w/o making fun of or putting anyone down for the way he/she believes.
Bill Gray is the way he is because he is not a Christian, he is a follower/believer of Satan. A Christian should feel anger at someone like him for doing what he does but evidently Christians thinks it's ok. Since I am not a Christian, I can strongly dislike his sorry azz & not feel guilty over it.

Hi Chick,

 

You are right, that what GD shares is NOT the Christian teaching of the Bible.   You tell him correctly, "Repenting comes right before accepting Jesus as your Savior, thus being saved, & you don't have to be dead before you can be saved."

 

A person who waits for death before repenting and receiving Christ -- will have waited one breath too long.  Anyone can repent, turn from following the world, and turn to follow Christ as long as he/she is still alive in this mortal body. 

 

Although, waiting until just before that last breath is very dangerous, sort of like play spiritual Russian Roulette -- and would tend to lack sincerity.  But, if a person does receive Christ before that last breath -- that person is saved and will spend eternity in the presence of God.

 

Once a person has breathed that last breath -- there is no "do over" -- no second chance.  That person has condemned himself/herself to an eternity in hell.

 

Then, you tell GD, "The part of me that questions the truth of the Bible/God/religion in general, respectively disagrees with you.  We all should be able to disagree w/o making fun of or putting anyone down for the way he/she believes."

 

And, I agree with you 100% that we should be able to agree, or to agree to disagree, without getting nasty, name calling, and such childish, inane behavior.  I disagree with GD on his New Age Urantia Book religion, and on his Herbert W. Armstrong/L. Ray Smith Universalist religion.  Both are cults. 

 

But, I am not, and will not, say that in anger, nor in a nasty way.  I tell him that based upon truthful facts, facts that anyone can verify if they want to put a small amount of time into investigating those religions.

 

In the same way, I tell Nathan, Vic, VP, et al, that many of their Roman Catholic teachings and doctrines are erroneous -- not in a nasty, nor in a denigrating way -- but, always in a factual way based upon Scripture, all 66 books.

 

We can have discussions, we can agree or disagree -- but, there is NEVER a time nor a reason for anyone to be nasty and personally attack another Forum member.

 

Thank you for pointing this out to GD and to all of us.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - Your Roadmap For Life

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

 

You are right, that what GD shares is NOT the Christian teaching of the Bible.   

 

 

 

Nah really? Ya think?  I have the One True Sovereign God to thank for that. 

 

Rev_18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

Mr Gray,

 

I will answer you if you answer me this. Do you believe that God is absolutely sovereign as He says He is? A simple yes or no is enough. Now remember, you believe we have "free will" which is supposedly able to thwart the will of God. So be honest. Now if you cant answer a simple yes or no without some contradictory nonsense explanation I will totally understand. 

 

Here is God exercising his sovereignty and will for all people.

 

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

Again, do you agree or disagree that when someone confesses Jesus as Lord that they will be saved? 

 

Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

You and most of Christianity says it will never happen. You despise the Word of God.  I think I will believe God on this one. How bout you? 

 

Mat 6:10  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 

 

I don't expect you to answer honestly, so this will be my last response to this thread if you don't. This is just for you and anyone else to consider and possibly study up and figure out.

 

Only God can open your eyes. I pray He does and I know He will..............eventually.

Hi GD,

 

YES, God is sovereign -- and YES God gave man the gift of "free will."  No contradiction there.  

 

God, in His sovereignty, never forces anyone to follow Him, nor to deny Him.  If God forced either choice on people -- then, we would only be robot responding to a Master.  But, because we do have the gift of "free will" -- those who truly love God will follow Him -- and those who love themselves more, will deny God and follow their secular society, which caters to their whims and desires.

 

So, yes, God is sovereign -- and we do have "free will" -- and, God in His omniscience knows His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His hands -- "eternal security!"

 

Now, keep your promise and answer my question:

 

Are you a follower of the New Age Urantia Book religion -- and are you a follower of the Herbert W. Armstrong/L. Ray Smith religion of Universalism, such as we find in the Universalist Unitarian cult  church?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GD,

 

YES, God is sovereign -- and YES God gave man the gift of "free will."  No contradiction there.  

 

God, in His sovereignty, never forces anyone to follow Him, nor to deny Him.  If God forced either choice on people -- then, we would only be robot responding to a Master.  But, because we do have the gift of "free will" -- those who truly love God will follow Him -- and those who love themselves more, will deny God and follow their secular society, which caters to their whims and desires.

 

So, yes, God is sovereign -- and we do have "free will" -- and, God in His omniscience knows His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His hands -- "eternal security!"

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Contradicting yourself billie........

 

 

Hi Vic,

 

As usual, you make wild, inane comments -- with absolutely no explanation, no rhyme or reason. 

 

Bobo the monkey can shake his head in disagreement and we accept that.  However, with a person who is a highly knowledgeable Roman Catholic, we expect a wee bit more.

 

Would you care to explain where I have contradicted the Bible in my comment?  Or will you just go on hissing and spitting as usual?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I expected this type of response from you Mr. Gray. Sometimes I forget how so deeply deceived you are and how I was too at one time. Forgive me. I truly believe that you believe your telling the truth. 

 

No of course I do not follow any man. How can you say that when all I do is quote Scripture and quote those that do? Would it be fair for me to say the same about you seeing how you quote pastor Chuck Smith alot? Of course it wouldnt, but you dont believe in fair.  No matter if I tell you this it still wont convince you, so I'll just leave it at that. 

 

I would however like to show the definition of the words "sovereignty" and "free will" and how they totally contradict each other. Will it help? Prolly not, but I can only hope.

 

Definition of SOVEREIGNTY

1
obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it
2
a : supreme power especially over a body politic
 
b : freedom from external control : autonomy
 
c : controlling influence
3
: one that is sovereignespecially : an autonomous state
 
free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
 
God does not need to force anyone to do anything. But He can and does influence a persons heart through grace. One of the definitions of God's grace is "divine influence of the heart".  He also uses circumstances to control our lives. 
 
You despise the thought of God being in total control of His creation. That is because that would unseat you from His throne, His temple which is your body. 
 
Rom 2:4  Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness (not your free will) leads you toward repentance? 
 
Remember that repentance leads you to salvation?
 
2Co 7:10  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 
 
So all is of God. Not your phantom, God thwarting, idol of the heart (which is unconstrained by external circumstances or divine will) called "free will". 
 
Peace out, Im done here. Thanks for the discussion. 
 
 
 
 
Last edited by gdriggs
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GD,

 

YES, God is sovereign -- and YES God gave man the gift of "free will."  No contradiction there.  

 

God, in His sovereignty, never forces anyone to follow Him, nor to deny Him.  If God forced either choice on people -- then, we would only be robot responding to a Master.  But, because we do have the gift of "free will" -- those who truly love God will follow Him -- and those who love themselves more, will deny God and follow their secular society, which caters to their whims and desires.

 

So, yes, God is sovereign -- and we do have "free will" -- and, God in His omniscience knows His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His hands -- "eternal security!"

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Contradicting yourself billie........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Because we have free will we don't have osas. Because we have free will

we are our own salvation. Because we can't force God  anymore than he

will force us, it's our choice.

 

Because we have free will and you say, " God in His omniscience knows

His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His

hands -- "eternal security!" is a contradtion. It's the children that will or

won't let anyone snatch themselves. It's the individual who decides if they

will slid back into sin that could lose them their salvation.

 

You can't talk osas out of one side of your mouth and free will out the other.

There's only one or the other. I'm going with free will.

 

 

 

 

quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GD,   YES, God is sovereign -- and YES God gave man the gift of "free will."  No contradiction there.  

 

God, in His sovereignty, never forces anyone to follow Him, nor to deny Him.  If God forced either choice on people -- then, we would only be robot responding to a Master.  But, because we do have the gift of "free will" -- those who truly love God will follow Him -- and those who love themselves more, will deny God and follow their secular society, which caters to their whims and desires.

 

So, yes, God is sovereign -- and we do have "free will" -- and, God in His omniscience knows His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His hands -- "eternal security!" 

 

Contradicting yourself billie........

 

Because we have free will we don't have osas.  Because we have free will we are our own salvation.  Because we can't force God  anymore than he will force us, it's our choice.

 

Because we have free will and you say, "God in His omniscience knows His children and will never allow anyone to snatch His children from His hands -- 'eternal security!' " -- is a contradtion. 

 

It's the children that will or won't let anyone snatch themselves.  It's the individual who decides if they will slid back into sin that could lose them their salvation.

 

You can't talk osas out of one side of your mouth and free will out the other.  There's only one or the other. I'm going with free will.

Hi Vic,

 

First, you very obviously do not understand the concept of "free will."  Second, you say, "we are our own salvation."

 

If we are our own salvation, why did Jesus Christ have to come and die on the cross?

 

You tell me, "It's the children that will or won't let anyone snatch themselves.  It's the individual who decides."

 

Yet, we read in Scripture:

 

John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Jude 1:24-25, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen"

 

So, these Scripture passages tell us that:

 

Christ knows His sheep, He gives them eternal life, and NO ONE can snatch them out of His hands.

 

They also tell us that the moment we believed, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit -- and that seal cannot be broken until the day of our redemption -- which is the day we die in this mortal body or the day we are Raptured from this mortal body.

 

Then, Romans tells us that those He foreknew, i.e., those whom God knew before the Creation would believe and receive Jesus Christ -- these He predestined to be Justified (saved) and that those who He has justified -- He will Glorify.   Glorification comes at the time of the Rapture; not before.

 

Therefore, His promise in Jude to keep us from stumbling and to stand us before God with great joy -- comes after we are Raptured and Glorified.

 

This, my Friend, is Scriptural proof of "eternal security" for all believers.

 

Where is YOUR Scriptural proof of "we are our own salvation"  and "It's the children that will or won't let anyone snatch themselves.  It's the individual who decides"?

 

Vic, all your ranting and raving, huffing and puffing -- may give you a gastric problem -- but, it does not offer any Scriptural basis for any of your wild claims.  In that sense, it fits well with the rest of your Roman Catholic beliefs -- NOT SCRIPTURAL.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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Hi Vic,

 

Is that weather report graphic your admission that you CANNOT answer the questions in my post just above it?

 

If so, I am not surprised.   But, I am disappointed -- for you made some very unBiblical statements.  That is why I asked you:

 

Where is YOUR Scriptural proof of "we are our own salvation"  and "It's the children that will or won't let anyone snatch themselves.  It's the individual who decides"?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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