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Hi to my Forum Friends,

Earlier, I posted this response to Neal Hughes; but, thinking about it, I feel that I want to share this will everyone and not take a chance on it being buried deeply witin another discussion and missed by many.

I say to Neal: You have pretty much defined the difference between you and the Christian walk when you state so strongly: "Such things are not of my ken, yet I would daresay that they affect not a whit my relationship with the holy catholic and apostolic church and Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

In your mind, and in your theology, you place "my relationship with the holy catholic and apostolic church" ahead of your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind that He teaches us, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). This tells me that I am saved through and by Jesus -- not the church, not any church.

You need to realize that the CHURCH is the body of believers. It is not a building; it is not an organization; it is not a corporation -- it is the body of Christian believers -- the bride of Christ. We do not worship the church -- we are the church.

Once more, look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

What does this passage tell us?

By grace: God's favor or kindness, His mercy, which we do not merit and have not earned -- yet, through love, He offers this to us. Titus 3:5 tells us, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy. . ."

You have been saved through faith: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Faith in what? Faith in Jesus Christ; faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ; faith that Jesus' death on the cross defeated Satan; faith that Jesus' resurrection assured our resurrection into eternity -- faith in the only name by which we can be saved, Jesus Christ.

Not of yourself: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment" (Isaiah 64:6). We can never be righteous enough on our own to get into heaven.

It is the gift of God:[b] "For the wages of sin is death, but [b]the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). If a gift is not free; it is not a gift. If the gift is not accepted; it is lost.

Not as a result of works: Jesus has already done all the work. There is absolutely nothing you or I can do to earn our salvation. There is no work, nothing we can do that is righteous enough to earn us salvation. If you were to stand before God today and He asked you, "Why should I let you into heaven?" -- what would you say? Works cannot get you into heaven. Rituals cannot get you into heaven. Tradition cannot get you into heaven. Then how can you get into heaven? Only be receiving the Free Gift of Salvation already "paid in full" by Jesus Christ.

So that no one may boast: Jesus Christ paid your sin debt in full; He paid your ransom in full. All you have to do is to accept this "paid in full" ransom and walk out of your worldly prison. Why did He do this? Because, no matter how much we try, you and I cannot pay our sin debt. If you or I could do this -- we might feel that we were as God. And, that is what brought down Satan; he wanted to be as God -- and he will spend eternity in the lake of fire. As Isaiah 64:6 tell us, ". . .our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment"

So, no Neal, we do not place any church, any organization, any rituals or traditions, any persons -- before Jesus Christ.

In Acts 4:12, we are told that nothing and no one else can save us -- not the church, not a Pope or Archbishop, not a priest, not Mary nor any other saint, no liturgy, no traditions -- nothing and no one except Jesus Christ can save us: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Neal, I pray that you can put aside your hatred of the Bible and of all Christian believers -- humble yourself before the Lord -- and find peace in Him (Romans 5:1). It is not your Episcopalian church which can save you; it is only Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well, all I can say is "By their fruits ye will know them;" and "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness;" alongside "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think a man who was reckoned to be a carpenter's son said those, did He not?
Why even bother to have church or sacraments at all? Isn't the Eucharist a mystical foretaste of the Lamb's Great Wedding Feast and baptism the outward and visible sign of washing and the inward and invisible sign of washing away sin and joining us to the universal church?
Why hang up red in churches on Pentecost and celebrate that day as the "birthday" of the Church?
Can there be salvation outside the church? I say yes, outside the church house, but not the church, which is made up of members who have acknowledged their sins, repented of them and been washed in the sacramental waters of baptism and follow the Way of the Lord, not a tv preacher or a bishop or even an archbishop.
This stuff you preach is hyper-Protestant antinomian (yet having a great deal of law in it, oddly enough!) chapel ranting.
What fruit will you bear when you won't even address your shortcomings as a religious historian yet wish for us to believe a bunch of stuff cooked up by assorted English loonies in the 1850s then perfected by the money mad crowd of Hagees, Lindsays, Robertsons, Roberts, Osteens, and Crouches?
You are perfectly welcome to come to my church any time and enjoy fellowship and partake of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, confessing your sins and acknowledging that you need to turn from your wicked ways and that you have sinned in word, thought, and deed, in what you have done and in what you have failed to do -- right alongside me and everyone else on their knees. Now can you claim the same?
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
Was the thief a special case then?Did God make an exception?


As it would appear. HE can do what ever he wants.

The thief is also not an example of salvation by faith under the gospel.
Those who argue for salvation by "faith only" cannot use the thief to defend their position either, for he did not have the kind of faith that is required for salvation today.

Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

To be saved according to the gospel we must believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead. The thief on the cross could not possibly believe that, since Jesus had not died let alone been raised.

Hence, people who believe faith is essential to salvation cannot use the thief as their example for how to be saved. He was no more saved by the faith of the gospel than he was saved by baptism. We could as easily use the thief to prove salvation without Scriptural faith as we could to use him as an example of salvation without baptism.

Even those who believe in salvation by faith only must admit we today are not saved like the thief was saved. But if we today are not saved like the thief was saved, why bring up the fact he was not baptized?

3. Many Scriptures clearly teach that baptism is essential to receive forgiveness under the gospel.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16 - Be baptized and wash away your sins.

Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:26,27 - We are baptized into Christ, into His death. We have newness of life after we have been baptized (John 3:3,5).

I Pet. 3:21 - Baptism now saves us.

(For further information, see the links at the end of this page for our study on the purpose of baptism.)

God's word does not contradict itself. It clearly teaches baptism is essential to receive remission. Therefore, the thief cannot prove people ARE saved without baptism for that would contradict other Scriptures. So there must be some other explanation for the case of the thief.

4. The thief was saved while the Old Testament was still in effect. He is not an example of salvation under the gospel at all.
The truth is that the thief was saved under a different law and dispensation than we are under. That is why it does not matter whether or not he believed what we must believe, and for the same reason it does not matter whether or not he was baptized. How he was saved is irrelevant to how we are saved.

Col. 2:14 - Jesus removed the first ordinances nailing them to His cross. Until Jesus died, the Jews lived under the laws given at Mt. Sinai through Moses. When He died, those laws ceased to be in effect.

Eph. 2:13-16 - He abolished the old law through His blood shed on the cross (v13,16).

Heb. 10:9,10; 9:16,17 - Jesus removed the first testament and replaced it with His new covenant the gospel. It is under this new testament that we are saved by Jesus' death. As with any will or testament, Jesus had to die to bring His testament into force. The old law was in effect until Jesus died, then it was replaced by the New Covenant. [Cf. Gal. 3:13; Rom. 7:4]

But the thief was forgiven before Jesus died and therefore while the first covenant was in effect. The conditions he had to meet to be forgiven prove nothing about the conditions under which we are forgiven. He proves no more about how we should be saved than does David, Moses, Noah, or Abraham. They did not have to believe what we do nor did they have to be baptized because they did not live under the same law we do.

5. While Jesus was on earth, He had the power to forgive people directly as He chose. After His death, people can be saved only according to the terms of His will.
During His life, Jesus directly spoke the forgiveness of several people (Mark 2:5-12; Luke 7:48,49; cf. John 8:1-11). Apparently the thief is another such case. But the conditions under which He forgave people then are not the terms of the gospel since, as shown above, it was not yet in effect.
LMM, you are right. there is more to becoming a Christian than just believing. The book of James tells us that even the demons believe...and tremble. so, just believing is doing no more than Satan does. It is about a relationship. Giving your heart (your life) to him. Giving up control over your own life.
The thief was saved because of his faith in Jesus. He recognized Jesus' innocence and recognized that he was the son of God and that he gave his life...it wasn't taken,
as a sacrifice for our sins. Baptism is only an outward demonstration of an inward change. Jesus IS the baptism. We were washed in his blood...that is what baptism represents..us being washed in his sacrificial blood. THe thief was there witnessing the true saving blood of Jesus. There was no need for water.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Salvation from what? Are we not children of the universe? Have we no right to exist unencumbered by ancient superstitions?

We are not born in, or into, sin. The concept that we are is ludicrous.

DF
Hi Deep,

Are you trying to confuse everyone? First you tell us we are Son Of Ape Man; now you tell us we are Son Of ET. Has Richard Dawkins issued another decree banning Darwin and bringing in Star Wars?

Next we will be Sons of Cactus Tree. Boy, you evolutionists sure do mix the batter a lot.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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After reading all the posts in this thread Richard Dawkins is the only non-imaginary entity cited here. Dawkins, also is the only reference here that has employed any critical thinking.
Humankind will indeed exterminate its self soon enough if we don't move beyond the outdated, obsolete world views from religious points. Many centuries ago religion may have been some help and comfort for mankind. Now it can no longer justify the damage and division it causes. Please read Christopher Hitchens, "God is Not Great". Because he is correct when he says "Religion poisions everything"
Seeing how we all add our 2 cents in, I think I will add mine as well.

Here is the truth as I have come to believe, It has occured to me that we Christians are figthing amongst ourselves a little to much. We are called; no matter the denomination, to fight against the evils of this world. To admonish the disbelief, the demons, the sickness, to fight the ways that lead a person from righteousness are our Christian goals.

If you look at the 7 churches in Revelations you will see that Jesus is in the midst of them all, even while they are not all the same He is still there. He does not say they all are perfect, nor does He say they all are right but we must believe according to His word that they all are members of the Body of Christ as long as they believe in the words of the Bible.

What we are required to believe for salvation is defined in our Bibles. But that means you must believe what the Bible tells you with no questions asked. While we might think it has been reworded to fit mans agenda, God requires us to read, study and believe it to be HIS infallible word and to let the Holy Spirit minister to our lives/hearts the truth pertaining to our walk with the Messiah.

Salvation as we see it is stated by Jesus himself, No man can go to the Father except through Jesus the Messiah. Through his redemptive blood. We are bound by the word ( The Word = JESUS ) of God for Salvation.

By faith you are saved, by the repenting (turning away) of sins you are saved, by trusting in the saving Grace of Jesus the messiah you are saved, not by works lest any man boast but by those works which will come; should prove to the world that you are saved by Jesus the Messiah.

While you may disagree with what is written above, I hold firm that Jesus is the way the truth and the life! I love you all through Jesus the Christ!

God bless you all.
Braylan.
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:
After reading all the posts in this thread Richard Dawkins is the only non-imaginary entity cited here. Dawkins, also is the only reference here that has employed any critical thinking.
Humankind will indeed exterminate its self soon enough if we don't move beyond the outdated, obsolete world views from religious points. Many centuries ago religion may have been some help and comfort for mankind. Now it can no longer justify the damage and division it causes. Please read Christopher Hitchens, "God is Not Great". Because he is correct when he says "Religion poisions everything"


I'd rather read the Bible ,because God is Great !!! Wink
quote:
Nope deepfat ,,dont need to


I'll bet you don't need to read much, do you?


Miamiz, yeah, I knew, but some groundwork is necessary.

I must admit, however, that deliberate ignorance baffles me. Why wouldn't anyone want to shake out her preconceptions to see if they're worthwhile? Is the human mind so feeble, or our herd mentality so strong that mere repetition of nonsense is enough to convince the masses that it's true?

I believe it was Socrates, that old scoundrel, who said "The unexamined life is not worth living".

DF
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
But that means you must believe what the Bible tells you with no questions asked


What a sad, sad way to live in this modern world.

The wise man questions everything in order to find the truth, no matter what it leads him to conclude.


Why must you take what I say and make something negative out of it?

I meant you or anyone else harm in speaking what my heart feels!

I question the things that I do not understand and I search for knowledge but I lean on truth according to Gods wonderful promise more than anything. While you look at the negative things of the past Biblical experiences and History, I look to wonderful Loving truth in Gods word and that is I am Saved because of Christ. I now live because of Christ. I have a future because of Christ.

No matter what I may endure during life in this world, because I have a promise by God, I will overcome now and in the end when all is said and done.

God bless you Gofish, and I will continue to pray for you.

Good day,
Braylan
quote:
God bless you Gofish, and I will continue to pray for you.



Don't' be stupid. If you truly believed in what you say, you would never, ever, waste a moment in prayer for me.

My goodness, you are supposedly asking the Creator of the universe to intervene on your behalf. You could ask for world peace, an end to hunger, peace in Darfur and a cure for cancer.

But, no, you supposedly ask him to make GoFish think like a moron.

Next time, pray for a rational thought to come into your own head.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
God bless you Gofish, and I will continue to pray for you.



Don't' be stupid. If you truly believed in what you say, you would never, ever, waste a moment in prayer for me.

My goodness, you are supposedly asking the Creator of the universe to intervene on your behalf. You could ask for world peace, an end to hunger, peace in Darfur and a cure for cancer.

But, no, you supposedly ask him to make GoFish think like a moron.

Next time, pray for a rational thought to come into your own head.


Those are some of my prayers, but I am already convinced that the request you have spoke of in reference to prayer are completly in His will and control; while I still ask for those, I trust in Him.

But you my friend are in my concerns and in His, You are outside of His loving arms and I pray for you in hope and faith that He will put someone into your life that can and will make an impact for your benefit and the benefit of others here on this earth.

If 1 instance of God came to you and opened your eyes to where you considered changing your mind/life and in return you spoke of that instance with other athiest; just think how effectual it would be.

So I will continue to lift you and your lifestyle, your choice of disbelief up to my Savior, Jesus the Messiah.

Maybe it will do some good for you and those close around you before it is to late.

I will continue to remember you in prayer.

Good day Fish,
Braylan
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
tnt, have you read Dawkins or Hitchens?

DF
Hi Deep,

Why in the world would an intelligent person read such trash? That is analogous to asking TNT if she had taken a drink of poison to see if it would really harm her.

Deep, I don't know if you have children or not; but, if you had a young child -- would you suggest that child watch a pornographic movie -- just to see if there would be a negative effect? Or to see if maybe they would like it?

TNT is right when she equates reading Dawkins and Hitchens to reading porn.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The bible has done so much harm and continues to cause much death and destruction. Science has answered so many questions the church once thought were divine. Remember, the people who wrote the bible thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around it. You see the christian view has been proven wrong time and time again. It is a new century, can't please we leave old superstitions behind?
If you are a reasonable person and read Dawkins and Hitchens you will either laugh at yourself or be embarassed by your old beliefs. And let's not forget Sam Harris, another reasonable person.
Mr. Bill,

Have YOU read The God Delusion? How about Letter to a Christian Nation?

If you have not, you are in no position to pass judgment on them, not that that's been much of an impediment to you before. Why don't you read them, and then we'll discuss them?

You wouldn't want to come off as an ignorant, bigoted blowhard would you?

DF
How sad is it that I seem to be relpying to my own posts? I want to apologise, I know people who follow religions believe deeply and I don't mean to hurt anyone. So if I did, I'm sorry.
You see, all one has to do is to think critically, about EVERYTHING. If you study humanities, and history and the world's religions it is apparent that religions come and go. You say, yes but not my religion. Well didn't the Zoroastrians believe the same thing? Didn't the Greeks, and the Romans think their gods were eternal?
Look at prayer, isn't what is today called prayer a form of incantation or magic? If you are trying to manipulate the natural world through invoking a supernatural power (god) isn't that magic? Wasn't magic as a belief of grownup people left behind long ago?
In the words of my wonderful Pastor, What if?? What if Christians are wrong? What if there is no God? What if we all came from monkies? What if? The hard question is What if we're right? Who has more to lose? God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Times may have changed, rules, laws, everything has changed. But our God has not changed. His word is still true today. The same sin that convinced Eve to take a bite of that apple still exists today. God made a way for us to be worthy of him. Jesus Christ is the only way. And until you have a relationship with him, you will never understand. Christians don't have to try to believe. When you accept that the Bible is real, God shows himself to you. I'm praying for the atheists that made posts on this forum. One day every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. Including you. Repent now and accept him.
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:
The bible has done so much harm and continues to cause much death and destruction. Science has answered so many questions the church once thought were divine. Remember, the people who wrote the bible thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around it. You see the christian view has been proven wrong time and time again. It is a new century, can't please we leave old superstitions behind?
If you are a reasonable person and read Dawkins and Hitchens you will either laugh at yourself or be embarassed by your old beliefs. And let's not forget Sam Harris, another reasonable person.


***

SATAN, THE ONE YOU FOLLOW HAS DONE SO MUCH HARM AND DESTRUCTION TO THE WORLD. His way of twisting your and others mind to be closed to the fact that God exist and is a loving God is what is causing the world death and continued destruction. Satan rebeled against God, Satan is behind the mindset of Hawkins and Ditchens! I meant it the way I wrote it (Hawkins and Ditchens they do not deserve my respect)! He has brain washed you to think that you have no reason to follow God in effort to steal your soul away from Salvation. The writers of the Bible never thought that the world was flat, in fact the writer of the Old Testament was Moses and others and He and they knew according to God that God created the world exactly how Genesis states. The early fathers which were Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, and Jude, and others all wrote the Bible according to how God had given them inspiration! The ones you refer to as being the writers were Johnny come latelies which merely interpreted or translated the Hebrew & Greek forms of the Bible as best as possible given their knowledge of such at the time. When you speak as though you have knowledge of those times you prove your ignorance. But I will pray for you along with GoFish and DeepFat. I hope you the best but most of all I hope and pray you Salvation through Jesus the Messiah!

Good day.
quote:
Originally posted by Braylan:
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:
The bible has done so much harm and continues to cause much death and destruction. Science has answered so many questions the church once thought were divine. Remember, the people who wrote the bible thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around it. You see the christian view has been proven wrong time and time again. It is a new century, can't please we leave old superstitions behind?
If you are a reasonable person and read Dawkins and Hitchens you will either laugh at yourself or be embarassed by your old beliefs. And let's not forget Sam Harris, another reasonable person.


***

SATAN, THE ONE YOU FOLLOW HAS DONE SO MUCH HARM AND DESTRUCTION TO THE WORLD. His way of twisting your and others mind to be closed to the fact that God exist and is a loving God is what is causing the world death and continued destruction. Satan rebeled against God, Satan is behind the mindset of Hawkins and Ditchens! I meant it the way I wrote it (Hawkins and Ditchens they do not deserve my respect)! He has brain washed you to think that you have no reason to follow God in effort to steal your soul away from Salvation. The writers of the Bible never thought that the world was flat, in fact the writer of the Old Testament was Moses and others and He and they knew according to God that God created the world exactly how Genesis states. The early fathers which were Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, and Jude, and others all wrote the Bible according to how God had given them inspiration! The ones you refer to as being the writers were Johnny come latelies which merely interpreted or translated the Hebrew & Greek forms of the Bible as best as possible given their knowledge of such at the time. When you speak as though you have knowledge of those times you prove your ignorance. But I will pray for you along with GoFish and DeepFat. I hope you the best but most of all I hope and pray you Salvation through Jesus the Messiah!

Good day.


I respected what you have said up until you start accusing people of following Satan because they do not believe the same as you do. I have read nowhere that said Netracer was a Satanist. You are beginning to act just like Bill.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Mr. Bill,

Have YOU read The God Delusion? How about Letter to a Christian Nation?

If you have not, you are in no position to pass judgment on them, not that that's been much of an impediment to you before. Why don't you read them, and then we'll discuss them?

You wouldn't want to come off as an ignorant, bigoted blowhard would you?

DF


Hasn't bothered him yet! Why would it now? Big Grin
Satan exists alright! Just look in the mirror and you'll see him. Satan, is not just a fallen angel, rather the mythic personification within our Id as Freud would term it, our desire for self-gratification above all else, to the extreme of us doing what our Freudian Superego tells us not to do.
The basic tenet of most Western thought is that we are free moral agents.
Satan most certainly did not write a word, the frequently gin-tossed (such a waste of talent when he went over to the neocons and dropped Ed Said on his deathbed) Chris Hitchens wrote his own stuff. Dr. Dawkins wrote his own stuff. Do you actually want "Lucifer Prince of Darkness" listed on the title pages of their works as "coauthor?"
We note that in the Old and New Testaments that Satan had no power over people except to tempt them, they did their own "sin" without him intervening except to play (pardon the pun) devil's advocate.
To reduce a deep premodern psychological insight such as Id, Ego and Superego in mythic terms is a grave disservice to the Bible. The Satan image is quite powerful and not as an agent of evil, rather as the negative force that we have inside our free will to choose between good and evil.
Even soi-disant "Satanists" do not believe in him as a supernatural entity with "powers"!
If any of you lower level readers have a problem, I am sorry, I do not know how else to frame this except in terms of Freud, to be honest. If you are too lazy to google then that is your problem.
This is comic book religion! You take one of the most powerful symbols in the entire canon of religious literature and turn it into something that Jack Chick can illustrate for you!
Even if the fallen angel Lucifer (Venus, the bright and shining morning star) did have any power on earth, did not St. Michael vanquish him according to holy writ? Now Michael is a most powerful archangel, and he is ready to intercede on your behalf in an emergency, but do not call upon him save in the most dire of straits!
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
God bless you Gofish, and I will continue to pray for you.



Don't' be stupid. If you truly believed in what you say, you would never, ever, waste a moment in prayer for me.

My goodness, you are supposedly asking the Creator of the universe to intervene on your behalf. You could ask for world peace, an end to hunger, peace in Darfur and a cure for cancer.

But, no, you supposedly ask him to make GoFish think like a moron.

Next time, pray for a rational thought to come into your own head.


I always wanted a pony, can we add that to the list?
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
quote:
Nope deepfat ,,dont need to


I'll bet you don't need to read much, do you?


Miamiz, yeah, I knew, but some groundwork is necessary.

I must admit, however, that deliberate ignorance baffles me. Why wouldn't anyone want to shake out her preconceptions to see if they're worthwhile? Is the human mind so feeble, or our herd mentality so strong that mere repetition of nonsense is enough to convince the masses that it's true?

I believe it was Socrates, that old scoundrel, who said "The unexamined life is not worth living".

DF


it baffles me as well, but i understand it, or why one avoids anything that might take them out of their comfort zone or complacency.

Socrates also said "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."

regards, miamizsun

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