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Lock up the employers that hire them and waive the fines and you will make a dent in this problem!
While securing the border is certainly an important component of immigration reform we also need to look much closer to home.
How many of our local employers hire illegal immigrants? How many of our local landlords rent to illegal immigrants charging outrageous rents?
Maybe we need to start letting our local business people know that we don't approve of their business practices. Are you listening local contractors, landlords and business people? It isn't just the big corporations. It is much closer to home.
How many of our local employers hire illegal immigrants? How many of our local landlords rent to illegal immigrants charging outrageous rents?
Maybe we need to start letting our local business people know that we don't approve of their business practices. Are you listening local contractors, landlords and business people? It isn't just the big corporations. It is much closer to home.
quote:Maybe we need to start letting our local business people know that we don't approve of their business practices. Are you listening local contractors, landlords and business people? It isn't just the big corporations. It is much closer to home.
Yeah, and you can start with Russellville. That whole town and its industry needs to be held accountable. The plants there have a blatant disregard for the law and no one says much about it. Instead they put out notices that if one wants certain city jobs one must speak Spanish. So, instead of punishing the law breakers, they punish law-abiding citizens by taking potential good paying jobs away.
My grandfather was a health inspector for Franklin County in the 1960s-70s. I recall his 'dislike' for Mexicans, but he never told me why. Before she died my grandmother told me that in the 1920s he hobo'd all over the US, and while traveling through New Mexico had a nasty run-in at some point with Mexicans. I'm glad he isn't alive today to see what Franklin County has become.
A business owner's responsibility is to their customers first, and employees second. They are busy focusing on running a successful business, not doing the INS's job. If the "solution" to this perceived immigration problem is adding more burdens to business owners, then it is a solution I cannot accept.
Actually a business owners first responsibility is to insure that he is following the law and not doing anything that can bring him prison time, like hiring illegals. It's is a matter of priorities.
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:
A business owner's responsibility is to their customers first, and employees second. They are busy focusing on running a successful business, not doing the INS's job. If the "solution" to this perceived immigration problem is adding more burdens to business owners, then it is a solution I cannot accept.
It is attitudes like yours that lie behind much of what is wrong in this cheating, stealing, greed-infested country. In your disordered thinking, profit trumps ethics; money-grubbing takes priority over abiding by the law.
Shame on you. And double-shame on you for being so cavalier about the matter as to come on here trying to justify the lawless actions of sleazy business operators, as though you had some kind of valid rationale for their scurrilous actions!
It's gonna be one of those weeks. I agree with beternU....again. 
Is he becoming more like us or are we becoming more like him?
quote:It is attitudes like yours that lie behind much of what is wrong in this cheating, stealing, greed-infested country. In your disordered thinking, profit trumps ethics; money-grubbing takes priority over abiding by the law.
Shame on you. And double-shame on you for being so cavalier about the matter as to come on here trying to justify the lawless actions of sleazy business operators, as though you had some kind of valid rationale for their scurrilous actions!
This has nothing to do with profit being more important than the law. It is a matter of who will take responsibilty for the "immigration problem." If the government can't get a grasp on it, that is not the problem of the business owning people in this country and they should be neither punished nor burdened.
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:quote:It is attitudes like yours that lie behind much of what is wrong in this cheating, stealing, greed-infested country. In your disordered thinking, profit trumps ethics; money-grubbing takes priority over abiding by the law.
Shame on you. And double-shame on you for being so cavalier about the matter as to come on here trying to justify the lawless actions of sleazy business operators, as though you had some kind of valid rationale for their scurrilous actions!
This has nothing to do with profit being more important than the law. It is a matter of who will take responsibilty for the "immigration problem." If the government can't get a grasp on it, that is not the problem of the business owning people in this country and they should be neither punished nor burdened.
No offense, but this is a total reversal of your political ideology. You want a government with no power, not even to protect us from invasion of illegal aliens, You believe that the free market will solve all our problems. Now you want the government ot handle it and the free market not burdened by it.
quote:Originally posted by beternU:quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:
A business owner's responsibility is to their customers first, and employees second. They are busy focusing on running a successful business, not doing the INS's job. If the "solution" to this perceived immigration problem is adding more burdens to business owners, then it is a solution I cannot accept.
It is attitudes like yours that lie behind much of what is wrong in this cheating, stealing, greed-infested country. In your disordered thinking, profit trumps ethics; money-grubbing takes priority over abiding by the law.
Shame on you. And double-shame on you for being so cavalier about the matter as to come on here trying to justify the lawless actions of sleazy business operators, as though you had some kind of valid rationale for their scurrilous actions!
I think this has been pointed out to you in the past...you have terrible reading comprhension.
Before you get sanctimonious and laying guilt on some one re-read what he posted.
"business owner's responsibility is to their customers"
Responsibility to customers...exactly how a successful business operates.
Once again responsibility to customers...Not cheating, stealing, greed, money-grubbing, etc.
Good grief...
quote:No offense, but this is a total reversal of your political ideology. You want a government with no power, not even to protect us from invasion of illegal aliens, You believe that the free market will solve all our problems. Now you want the government ot handle it and the free market not burdened by it.
I can see where I came across that way, but that's not the case. What makes something illegal? A government outlawing it. What's the difference in an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant? Government status. The government should not have the power to declare people's residence as illegal, and then burden business owners by demanding they enforce their rules. If the government is going to give itself the power to make residence illegal, they should also take responsibility for enforcing it. As to my ideology that markets should decide things instead of governments, this can apply to immigration as well. It seems to me that the market wants more immigrant labor, and I'm fine with that. The government shouldn't stop that.
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:
...What's the difference in an illegal immigrant and a legal immigrant? Government status. The government should not have the power to declare people's residence as illegal, and then burden business owners by demanding they enforce their rules...
I read an interesting article on Immigration vs Naturalization. The article attempts to put a “constitutional” consideration on the recent discussions on immigration, especially with the new AZ law.
The Constitution empowers the congress to make rules on “Naturalization”… rules about giving foreign-born residents of the United States the “privileges of native” born residents. Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution empowers Congress to “establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization”.
There is a difference between immigration & naturalization as the founders understood it. Common 18th century definition of naturalization was “The act of investing aliens with the privileges of native subjects”, while emigrate had a common meaning of “to move from one place to another.”
So basically the Congress has the power to set the rules for becoming a citizen, and as with all things that have not been given to Congress in Article 1, Section 8, is reserved to the people and the states…in this case no power has been delegated over the rules of immigration. Such power is something retained by the people of the several states to be dealt with by their state governments or not – as they see fit.
So one state like AZ wants to crack down on immigration and another wants to allow more, would be acceptable under the Constitution. “Marketplace competition” between states would allow us to see which policy worked best, not only for the economy, but for the amount of freedom vs restriction that people want in their lives.
As with most every issue that is debated, when it comes to strict constitutional interpretation…should be left to the people of the several states.
A very interesting article and comment section that follows…
Immigration vs Naturalization
quote:If the government is going to give itself the power to make residence illegal, they should also take responsibility for enforcing it.
That argument doesn't wash. The purpose of laws is for the benefit of the citizenry. If any citizen circumvents those laws, he/she does damage to society as a whole. Case in point: A man is involved in cooking meth. he is my neighbor. I deduce that it is the governments job to catch him and not mine. He continues to sell meth until my entire neighborhood is hooked. That's just as much my fault as his, I knew he was breaking the law and did nothing to stop it. When corporate American enables illegal immigration by giving them jobs, they are in fact undermining the rule of law.
quote:The purpose of laws is for the benefit of the citizenry.
No. Laws should protect people from harm to life, liberty, and property. That's the only purpose they should serve. I'm not saying that's the way it is, I'm just talking about the basic function of the rule of law. Immigration by itself does no harm to an individual's life, liberty, or property.
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:quote:The purpose of laws is for the benefit of the citizenry.
No. Laws should protect people from harm to life, liberty, and property. That's the only purpose they should serve. I'm not saying that's the way it is, I'm just talking about the basic function of the rule of law. Immigration by itself does no harm to an individual's life, liberty, or property.
When the law is violated it does harm to everyone.
quote:Originally posted by Jugflier:quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:quote:The purpose of laws is for the benefit of the citizenry.
No. Laws should protect people from harm to life, liberty, and property. That's the only purpose they should serve. I'm not saying that's the way it is, I'm just talking about the basic function of the rule of law. Immigration by itself does no harm to an individual's life, liberty, or property.
When the law is violated it does harm to everyone.
That's an awfully big, blanket statement. What about bad laws, unconstitutional laws?
You said dolemitejb was not following his own stated political views...I don't remember where you came down on the healthcare reform, but it is now "law" to have insurance to be a citizen of legal standing. And as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of challenges to this law.
Are you saying harm is done to everyone if this "law" is not followed?
What about the guy who's going home tonight and smokes a little weed...are we all harmed by that?
quote:When the law is violated it does harm to everyone.
You know that's not true. It's against the law to sell beer on Sunday. If someone violated that law, are you suggesting that the entire community has suffered a devasting blow?
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:quote:When the law is violated it does harm to everyone.
You know that's not true. It's against the law to sell beer on Sunday. If someone violated that law, are you suggesting that the entire community has suffered a devasting blow?
When ever people believe they can pick or choose which laws they will or will not obey the end of that society is near. The rule of law is the one thing that preserves any society. So yes, when a citizen, including a business owner enables people to break the law, harm is done to society as a whole.
quote:That's an awfully big, blanket statement. What about bad laws, unconstitutional laws?
Renegade, the discussion is about immigration laws, which Dolomite believes companies can promote the breaking of without any recourse to society.
quote:You said dolemitejb was not following his own stated political views...I don't remember where you came down on the healthcare reform, but it is now "law" to have insurance to be a citizen of legal standing. And as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of challenges to this law.
I'm against it. Government mandated insurance that is.
quote:When ever people believe they can pick or choose which laws they will or will not obey the end of that society is near. The rule of law is the one thing that preserves any society. So yes, when a citizen, including a business owner enables people to break the law, harm is done to society as a whole.
quote:the discussion is about immigration laws, which Dolomite believes companies can promote the breaking of without any recourse to society.
You're obfuscating what I say. I'm not advocating that laws be broken. I'm advocating that dumb laws shouldn't exist, and that our legal system should only serve to protect life, liberty, and property.
As to immigration, I'm not suggesting that we encourage illegal immigration. I'm suggesting that we examine why people are coming to this country illegaly, and possibly modify our laws to allow more immigrant labor into the US. Some are suggesting that the current laws could be better enforced by cracking down on business owners who hire illegal aliens. It seems to me that when you have a pool of people seeking a certain kind of work, and another pool of people in need of their labor, the government shouldn't try to stop that, but should instead get out of the way and legally allow things to work.
The word "naturalize" is taken from "natural" which is the Spanish and Latinate sense of "being born somewhere." One might ask, "Esta Vd. natural de DF?" Meaning "Were you a denizen of Mexico City at birth?"
When someone is naturalized they (the person born in the second country) become like someone born a citizen. Period. That is why it is called the Naturalization Process. You know, language tests, quiz on US culture and history, all that, time requirements, oath of renunciation to all foreign princes and potentates, etc. then oath of allegiance to the USA.
When someone is naturalized they (the person born in the second country) become like someone born a citizen. Period. That is why it is called the Naturalization Process. You know, language tests, quiz on US culture and history, all that, time requirements, oath of renunciation to all foreign princes and potentates, etc. then oath of allegiance to the USA.
quote:Originally posted by dolemitejb:quote:When ever people believe they can pick or choose which laws they will or will not obey the end of that society is near. The rule of law is the one thing that preserves any society. So yes, when a citizen, including a business owner enables people to break the law, harm is done to society as a whole.quote:the discussion is about immigration laws, which Dolomite believes companies can promote the breaking of without any recourse to society.
You're obfuscating what I say. I'm not advocating that laws be broken. I'm advocating that dumb laws shouldn't exist, and that our legal system should only serve to protect life, liberty, and property.
As to immigration, I'm not suggesting that we encourage illegal immigration. I'm suggesting that we examine why people are coming to this country illegaly, and possibly modify our laws to allow more immigrant labor into the US. Some are suggesting that the current laws could be better enforced by cracking down on business owners who hire illegal aliens. It seems to me that when you have a pool of people seeking a certain kind of work, and another pool of people in need of their labor, the government shouldn't try to stop that, but should instead get out of the way and legally allow things to work.
The law is changed thru the political process. If you don't like a law, lobby your congressman. Till then, obey the laws as written to the best of your ability. We must have immigration laws, otherwise, we would soon be a minority in our own country.
quote:The law is changed thru the political process. If you don't like a law, lobby your congressman. Till then, obey the laws as written to the best of your ability.
That's all fine and good, but laws currently exist that harm life, liberty, and property instead of protecting them. They fundmentally shouldn't exist whether or not someone lobbies a congressman.
quote:We must have immigration laws, otherwise, we would soon be a minority in our own country.
That is an extremely weak justification for immigration law.