Science, Atheist, Big Bang advocates overlook the most most practical.

Hi GB,

Atheists HAVE TO support and push Evolution. For, if they admit that evolution is not true -- the ONLY alternative is an Intelligent Designer. And, only a preexisting, eternal, all powerful God can fit that bill.

And, that is why they have to insist upon a 16 billion year old universe -- for, their accidental "life from no-life" requires those 16 billion years to work. Evolution cannot happen and did not happen in thousands of years; thus they lay their whole being upon the 16 billion years.

The atheists, secularist, and other non-believers are like the man standing in the middle of the highway, with an 18-wheeler flying toward him, and he asks, "What truck?"

It boils down to a choice between God and Evolution. They have to admit belief in one or the other. And, if they admit belief in God -- then, they have to be accountable to God. That is the wall they cannot climb, or, at least, resist climbing -- turning their lives over to God and letting Him be in control instead of themselves. It comes down to -- they want to be their own god; so, they deny God.

And, for the non-believers who continue to deny God until they have passed their last breath -- a Road Kill would seem nice compared to what follows the last breath of a non-believer.

So, we keep sharing with them, keep praying, and who knows -- one or two may change their eternal destiny because of a seed you planted. Keep sowing!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Me, I'm just a stupid ole dumb simplest

An alcoholic must admit his problem before he can seek a cure. That is a brave admission and I applaud you. With just a bit more education you may one day realize that science is our one and only way to understand the mind of God Himself.

It's all about the harvest! The most practical is right in front of them. It is our job to help them see.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Me, I'm just a stupid ole dumb simplest

An alcoholic must admit his problem before he can seek a cure. That is a brave admission and I applaud you. With just a bit more education you may one day realize that science is our one and only way to understand the mind of God Himself.

Hi Sofa,

Sorry, my Friend -- but the Bible is the ONLY way to understand, or at least, to seek an understanding of God and His will for our lives and His plan for our salvation.

And, one thing we learn is that science is a subset of Creation. When "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, i.e, the whole universe" (Genesis 1:1 with a wee bit of paraphrase from me) -- He also created science and all the laws governing all the sciences.

As you said, science will help us better understand this amazing work of the Lord of the Universe -- but, all it does is point back to God and to His Written Word, the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Sorry, my Friend -- but the Bible is the ONLY way to understand, or at least, to seek an understanding of God and His will for our lives and His plan for our salvation.

True. But denying proven scientific fact and misusing our God-given intellect to deny the evidence He left before our eyes must be a sin in the eyes of the Lord.

People like GB who plug their eyes and yell "nah nah can't see you" are the epitome of ignorance and have come to represent the lowest common denominator of the Christian faith.

We Christians should embrace science, not vilify it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Sorry, my Friend -- but the Bible is the ONLY way to understand, or at least, to seek an understanding of God and His will for our lives and His plan for our salvation.

True. But denying proven scientific fact and misusing our God-given intellect to deny the evidence He left before our eyes must be a sin in the eyes of the Lord.

People like GB who plug their eyes and yell "nah nah can't see you" are the epitome of ignorance and have come to represent the lowest common denominator of the Christian faith.

We Christians should embrace science, not vilify it.

Hi Sofa,

Respect science, embrace science, understand science -- yes. Make science a god -- no. A car can be a wonderful tool for our use -- but, regardless if it is a Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Cadillac, or Chevy -- without a driver it is worthless, it can accomplish nothing.

The same with science; without the Creator who wrote all the laws governing the sciences -- they would not exist. Science is a subset of the Creation. God shows us in the Bible that the Creation occurred thousands of years ago, not billions, and that the days of Creation were lunar days. Now, why would He tell us one thing in the Bible -- if His reality contradicted it? He would not. He is not a God of confusion as we are plainly told in the Bible.

Therefore, we must keep science in its proper perspective. A creation cannot exceed its Creator.

You mention proven scientific facts. Darwinian Evolution is nothing more than a book of educated guesses and suppositions. But, secular scientists who insist upon denying God -- must have the universe be billions of years old to support Darwin's suppositions that life happened accidentally according to his Darwinian Evolution theories. In other words, scientists have painted themselves into a corner through accepting Darwinian Evolution and declaring it to be true. Now, they must live or die with billions of years of creation to support this false belief.

Darwinian Evolution absolutely could not have happened in the thousands of years we have in the Bible; therefore secular scientists MUST throw out the Biblical teaching. In other words, they have to choose between Evolution and God -- and, if they choose God, they must be held accountable to God. A person cannot truly believe spiritually in God without turning control of their life over to Him. Therefore, just like the the pagan world's gods of stone and wood, science and Darwin become the secularist and atheist gods; for these gods do not demand true obedience.

Even Darwin himself said that if the Missing Link fossil is not found, Darwinian Evolution will be dead. In 150 since Darwin wrote his book of suppositions -- not one true Missing Link fossil has been found. RIP Darwinian Evolution -- and the billions of years you need to survive.

A final note, Sofa, you tell us that you are a Christian -- yet, you insist upon emulating Richard Dawkins and his atheist cadre by calling everyone who disagrees with you ignorant, stupid, etc. If you do not agree with Dawkins, et al, why emulate them? Why make yourself look like them? On the other hand, if you do agree with them -- how can you be Christian. I will leave you to ponder that question.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Me, I'm just a stupid ole dumb simplest

An alcoholic must admit his problem before he can seek a cure. That is a brave admission and I applaud you. With just a bit more education you may one day realize that science is our one and only way to understand the mind of God Himself.

I'm sure you are aware of what satire is, right?

I know very well the way that non-believers view believers and our acceptance of creation and our belief in the Bible. Which is why I said what I did, save you the time. I'm perfectly comfortable with my faith and I have no doubts. Non-believers on the other hand strive to come up with all kinds of theories and hypothesis as to why things happen because they refuse to acknowledge God therefore truly fulfill the definition of "ignorance" for they lack understanding with relation to God.

Science constantly and continually strives to answer that which it will never know or discover and that being the process of creation for it was By God's Word and whether that be a literal word or a thought from the Creator that brought into existence our world and universe science still has "no clue" as to what happened they only have and will only have theories of vain men or women who will spiritually thirst until they can come to a relationship with God through Christ.

quote:

You mention proven scientific facts. Darwinian Evolution is nothing more than a book of educated guesses and suppositions

I'm not surprised you would offer up such an ignorant statement. Of course it is much more than that. The doctor you visit uses the theory of evolution as his basis for all of modern biology. Nothing makes sense about biology except under the light of evolution.

As to your assertions about Richard Dawkins (whom I'm sure you have never read), although he is utterly wrong on certain points he does make a good arguments about evolution (one of his books, the Selfish Gene, was required reading for me in college) and is a renowned scientist.

Take his stances on the existence of God out of the equation and his science is spot on. But only for those of us that have the ability to grasp the basics of science which, sadly, will forever be beyond you.

And only for those of us whose faith is not challenged by attacks against matters of faith. My faith is untouchable by the fingers of science. Is your faith so weak that you cannot study scientific fact? So weak that you can only attack and mock it instead of debating the details?

I know, stupid question. But if you ever choose to educate yourself, I'll be glad to help.

quote:

Science constantly and continually strives to answer that which it will never know or discover

another ignorant statement.

GBK, science provides answers to profound questions almost every day. Would you believe that just a few years ago, people thought the earth was the center of the universe?

Now we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the SUN is the center of our solar system and is one of countless others suns in our galaxy that is just one of countless other galaxies on our universe.

You are the same kind of person who would put Galileo on trial during the Inquisition

Us Episcopalians will celebrate one of our own in a few days with the liturgical celebration of Johannes Kepler who advanced the "stupid" theory that the sun was at the center of the solar system.

GB, denying the fact of evolution is the same as denying heliocentric theory. They are both well proven scientific theories. Deny them only if you want to continue to look like a fool.

On the other hand, you can educate yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Sofa King:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
You mention proven scientific facts. Darwinian Evolution is nothing more than a book of educated guesses and suppositions

I'm not surprised you would offer up such an ignorant statement. Of course it is much more than that. The doctor you visit uses the theory of evolution as his basis for all of modern biology. Nothing makes sense about biology except under the light of evolution.

As to your assertions about Richard Dawkins (whom I'm sure you have never read), although he is utterly wrong on certain points he does make a good arguments about evolution (one of his books, the Selfish Gene, was required reading for me in college) and is a renowned scientist.

Take his stances on the existence of God out of the equation and his science is spot on. But only for those of us that have the ability to grasp the basics of science which, sadly, will forever be beyond you.

And only for those of us whose faith is not challenged by attacks against matters of faith. My faith is untouchable by the fingers of science. Is your faith so weak that you cannot study scientific fact? So weak that you can only attack and mock it instead of debating the details?

I know, stupid question. But if you ever choose to educate yourself, I'll be glad to help.

Hi Sofa,

Trying to read your post -- I had trouble getting past your athiest argument: Stupid, Ignorant!

But, of course your position on Christianity is explained by your approval of Richard Dawkins.

No more need be said,

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

so bill, your saying there is no such thing as genetics or dna? now before you answer remember that if you say yes that you are verifying evolution and if you say no you are verifying your own ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
so bill, your saying there is no such thing as genetics or dna? now before you answer remember that if you say yes that you are verifying evolution and if you say no you are verifying your own ignorance.

Hi TCF,

So, God, when He created the heavens and the earth -- was not smart enough to create our DNA and the genetic structure needed to make life happen.

Yet, Charles Darwin was smart enough to find this "life created from non-life" on a remote island.

It must be exciting to have human gods and science gods -- who are smarter and more powerful than the God who created the heavens and the earth, i.e., the complete universe.

And, yes, science was a part of His creation -- and without the laws He created -- there would be no sciences.

Yet, to you this created science is god -- and stands above God.

My, you must be thinking of another god; for my God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent -- He is preexisting -- and He is, for sure, much more intelligent that Charles Darwin or even Richard Dawkins.

So, yes, I believe in biology. Why shouldn't I? God created it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

yes bill, god was smart enough to create dna and the genetic structure needed to create man through the process of evolution.

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
yes bill, god was smart enough to create dna and the genetic structure needed to create man through the process of evolution.

Hi TCF,

So, this God, who is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (all present) -- needed to use evolution and billions of years to create the heavens and the earth?

When He could snap his fingers (spiritually speaking) and make things happen instantaneously -- why do you suppose it took Him billions of years to finish the job?

Maybe He had a learning curve; you know, like when we get hired on a new job -- it takes us a while to learn the job. Do you suppose this was a new job for Him and he needed billions of years to get it right?

Like I said, TCF, it is obvious that you and I are talking about different Gods. And, to the best of my knowledge, there is only one God -- so, I am not sure who you hired to create the heavens and the earth.

You must be speaking of someone different, for in your post, you write, "god was smart enough." There is the difference; you are speaking of a god; while I am speaking of God.

Maybe your god is science. But, personally, I do not believe that science -- even if given billions of years -- can create "life from non-life."

Someday, TCF, you and I must have a chat about God, the real God -- who created the heavens and the earth -- thousands of years ago; not billions -- and He did it in six lunar days.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

So, this God, who is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (all present) -- needed to use evolution and billions of years to create the heavens and the earth?

NEED to? not necessarily, but thats the way he did it. and as far as worshipping different gods, i told you before, i worship a god of love, you worship a god of hate, so yes very different gods.

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:

quote:

So, this God, who is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (all present) -- needed to use evolution and billions of years to create the heavens and the earth?

NEED to? not necessarily, but thats the way he did it. and as far as worshipping different gods, i told you before, i worship a god of love, you worship a god of hate, so yes very different gods.

Hi TCF,

You say, "That's the way He did it."

Please show me where you find that in the Bible.

And, keep in mind that Darwin's "Origin Of The Species" is not the Bible -- at least not in any church I have ever attended.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

there are people who say the earth is flat because the bible says so. do you believe that?

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
there are people who say the earth is flat because the bible says so. do you believe that?

Hi TCF,

Will you please show us in your Bible where it says the earth is flat. My Bible tells me that the earth is spherical and that God hung it in the universe. So, I am not sure what you are reading; maybe Peterson's paraphrase bible.

You do read the Bible, don't you? Otherwise, why are you always jumping into Biblical discussions?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

you claim to be a bible literalist, you claim the bible is inerrant. yet, bible literalists claim the earth to be flat. there are several churchs in the shoals area that claim this. (note: i had a brother-in-law who was a deacon at one of these churchs)
here is a couple of sites you might enjoy about it:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/flat/flateart.htm

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

quote:

Originally posted by tcf531:
you claim to be a bible literalist, you claim the bible is inerrant. yet, bible literalists claim the earth to be flat. there are several churchs in the shoals area that claim this. (note: i had a brother-in-law who was a deacon at one of these churchs)

Hi TCF,

Yes, I do know the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, literal Word of God. However, the Bible does not, in any way, teach a flat earth -- and any church which teaches this I would have to hold suspect.

You probably also believe that the Bible teaches that Satan is little red guy with horns and a long pointed tail.

Are you grasping at straws in your attempt to deny God?

TCF, no one is forcing you to accept God; least of all, God Himself. That is why He gave you and me "free will" -- the "free will" to either accept Him and His eternal salvation -- or to deny Him and live eternally with Satan.

So, there is no reason to play these silly games. You and I know the earth is spherical; science has shown, from space photographs that the earth is a sphere; and common sense tells us that if we start at point A and travel in a straight line, we will return to point A some time later. This can only happen on a sphere.

So, why the silly games? Or do you just want an argument? Sorry, my Friend, I am not up to "spitting contests" -- spit into the wind all by yourself.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

...The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book. ...While the Bible nowhere states categorically that the earth is flat, numerous Old Testament verses clearly show that the ancient Hebrews were flat-earthers. This comes through more clearly in modern translations such as the New English Bible, but it's clear enough in the King James Version. The Genesis creation story says the earth is covered by a vault (firmament) and that the celestial bodies move inside the vault. (See Genesis 1:6-8 and 1:17. Note that, even in KJV, while there are waters "above" the firmament, the celestial bodies are "in" it.) This makes no sense unless one assumes that the earth is essentially flat.

That the Hebrews considered the sun and moon to be small bodies near to the earth is clear from Joshua 10:12, which gives specific localities [geographic] in which they stood still. Isaiah 40:22 says that "God sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth, whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers." In the book of Job, Eliphaz the Temanite says God "walks to and fro on the vault of heaven.'' (Job 22:14. The KJV translators copped out on the last two verses, but in both cases the implications are clear.)

That the earth was considered essentially flat is clear from Daniel, who said, "I saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth; the tree grew and became strong, reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." (Daniel 4:10-11) Only on a flat earth could one see a tree reaching the sky (dome?) from "the earth's farthest bounds."

The New Testament also implies a flat earth. For instance, Matthew 4:8 says that "The devil took him [Jesus] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory." From a sufficiently high mountain, one could see all of the kingdoms of the world"but only if the earth were flat. The same applies to Revelation 1:7, which says that at the second coming, "Every eye shall see him." Finally, Revelation 7:1 refers to "the four corners of the earth," and corners are not generally associated with spheres.

Actually, if you want a good picture of the hebrew conception of the earth, look in a Jewish encyclopedia under "cosmography." You might also want to read the so-called "Ethiopic" Book of Enoch, written perhaps 150 B.C. While not canonical, it's paraphrased or quoted a couple of times in the New Testament, so it was highly regarded in those days. Its flat earth implications are even stronger.

Hi TCF,

If you want to believe in a flat-earth; be my guest. If you want to believe in an oblong earth, be my guest.

However, if you are going to believe in anything -- I would suggest you start by believing in GOD -- believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- believe in His resurrection -- and believe that, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if you will sincerely believe you will receive eternal life.

When you start believing in this aspect of God; then we can discuss your flat-earth Bible beliefs.

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything -- you just want to find a way to start an argument. Sorry, I am not interested in your "spitting contest."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

since the bible indicates that the world is flat, you disniss it because you know better and would rather not discuss it?

I CAN SPIT FARTHER THAN YOU!

NO, YOU CAN'T!

OH, YEAH?

AND ON AND ON AND ON, ad infinitum!

Oh, my.
Did I miss the time machine that transported you back to high school, Bill?
come on, this is just insulting to readers......

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh, my. Did I miss the time machine that transported you back to high school, Bill?
come on, this is just insulting to readers......

Hi VP,

Why? Because I disagree with TCF and his non-believer's flat-earth Bible teaching -- or because I refuse to enter his "spitting contest"?

But, if you are so inclined; please, feel free to participate. Possibly you like to argue more the me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Maybe your god is science. But, personally, I do not believe that science -- even if given billions of years -- can create "life from non-life."

Bill

Something like this Bill?


"U.S. scientists announced a bold step Thursday in the enduring quest to create artificial life: They have produced a living cell powered by manmade DNA.

While such work can invoke images of Frankenstein-like scientific tinkering, it also is exciting hopes that it could eventually lead to new fuels, better ways to clean polluted water, faster vaccine production and more."

http://www.thestar.com/news/sc...a-researchers-report

quote:

Bill you ask:

Hi TCF,

Will you please show us in your Bible where it says the earth is flat. My Bible tells me that the earth is spherical and that God hung it in the universe. So, I am not sure what you are reading; maybe Peterson's paraphrase bible.

Can you show us where it tells you in the bible that the earth is spherical? TCF did as you ask and you just started acting childish and calling it a "spitting contest" and "arguing" So I guess when someone actually does what you ask of them they are trying to start a fight in your mind?

This is a forum and this is where people discuss different points of view and exchange information. If you don't like it then leave other wise stop expecting the rest of us to just take what you say as "gospel" and respect the fact that we could have our own opinions and most of the time evidence to prove our point. Can you? You say its in your bible....points us to the book, chapter and verse please.

Questioning Darwinian evolution is not the exclusive province of "Bible thumpers."

I submit below links to the credentials of two of the most highly-regarded scientists of the last 100 years, Drs. Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe. The two of them collaborated in 1991 in a paper published in the New Scientist, Where Microbes Boldly Went." The following is from that article:

"Precious little in the way of biochemical evolution coould have happened on the Earth. It is easy to show that the two thousand or so enzymes that span the whole of life could not have evolved on the Earth. If one counts the number of trial assemblies of amino acids that are needed to give rise to the enzymes, the probability of their discovery by random shufflings turns out to be less than 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power."


Elsewhere, Hoyle and Wickramasinghe state:

"The likelihood of the spontaneous formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 zeros after it...It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence."
Evolution from Space (New York:Simon & Schuster 1984), page 148.

Read about these anti-Darwinists:

http://www.coseti.org/hoyle.htm

http://www.hoyle.org.uk/FH/Home.html

"Sir Fred Hoyle is known by the scientific community as one of the 20th century’s great scientific thinkers who was not afraid to question orthodox beliefs in the pursuit of the truth."

http://www.coseti.org/wickrama.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/c...a_wickramasinghe.htm

"Chandra Wickramasinghe is acknowledged as being one of the world's leading experts on interstellar material and the origins of life. He has made many important contributions in this field, publishing over 350 papers in major scientific journals, over 75 in the high-impact journal Nature. In 1974 he first proposed the theory that dust in interstellar space and in comets was largely organic, a theory that has now been vindicated. Jointly with the late Sir Fred Hoyle he was awarded the International Dag Hammarskjold Gold Medal for Science in 1986."

quote:

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

From Jankinonya:

quote:

Can you show us where it tells you in the bible that the earth is spherical?

Try this:

Isaiah 40:22:

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth...."

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

You just do not subscribe to the Gospel of Bill. For Bill to assert that he knows Gods will and has all of the answers is JUST as arrogant and misguided as an atheist who claims he is POSITIVE there is no God.

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi TCF, If you want to believe in a flat-earth; be my guest. If you want to believe in an oblong earth, be my guest. However, if you are going to believe in anything -- I would suggest you start by believing in GOD -- believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- believe in His resurrection -- and believe that, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if you will sincerely believe you will receive eternal life. When you start believing in this aspect of God; then we can discuss your flat-earth Bible beliefs.

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything -- you just want to find a way to start an argument. Sorry, I am not interested in your "spitting contest."

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

You just do not subscribe to the Gospel of Bill. For Bill to assert that he knows Gods will and has all of the answers is JUST as arrogant and misguided as an atheist who claims he is POSITIVE there is no God.

Hi DD and VP,

True, a person's faith and salvation is known only to that person and God. However, as the Bible tells us -- we can know the "fruit" of that person's faith and salvation.

Jesus teaches us, in Matthew 7:16-18, "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

So, while you and I cannot say that we know that a person has or does not have salvation -- his/her "fruit" will be a good indicator of his/her spiritual condition.

DD, you say that we cannot know the will of God; not totally true. While we cannot say that we, as mortals, fully know the mind of God -- we can gain great insight through studying the Bible. And, that is what He wants us to do -- seek His face, seek His will, seek His guidance -- through prayer and Scripture study.

You really should try this some time. You will be amazed at the results and the spiritual effect upon your life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi TCF, If you want to believe in a flat-earth; be my guest. If you want to believe in an oblong earth, be my guest. However, if you are going to believe in anything -- I would suggest you start by believing in GOD -- believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- believe in His resurrection -- and believe that, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if you will sincerely believe you will receive eternal life. When you start believing in this aspect of God; then we can discuss your flat-earth Bible beliefs.

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything -- you just want to find a way to start an argument. Sorry, I am not interested in your "spitting contest."

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

You just do not subscribe to the Gospel of Bill. For Bill to assert that he knows Gods will and has all of the answers is JUST as arrogant and misguided as an atheist who claims he is POSITIVE there is no God.

Hi DD and VP,

True, a person's faith and salvation is known only to that person and God. However, as the Bible tells us -- we can know the "fruit" of that person's faith and salvation.

Jesus teaches us, in Matthew 7:16-18, "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

So, while you and I cannot say that we know that a person has or does not have salvation -- his/her "fruit" will be a good indicator of his/her spiritual condition.

DD, you say that we cannot know the will of God; not totally true. While we cannot say that we, as mortals, fully know the mind of God -- we can gain great insight through studying the Bible. And, that is what He wants us to do -- seek His face, seek His will, seek His guidance -- through prayer and Scripture study.

You really should try this some time. You will be amazed at the results and the spiritual effect upon your life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You CAN find great insight in studying the BIBLE. Ideas like not judging others or the love of money is evil or that the wolves will come in sheeps clothing.

You can find insight in ANY religious philosophy. The religion of one age is the myth of the next. I did not deny the existence of any God. Only the assertion that YOUR god is the ONLY way to salvation. What is salvation?

By what measure to you believe we should be judged?

I hear your fundamentalism. I am not interested in a book of laws that negates spirituality.

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi TCF, If you want to believe in a flat-earth; be my guest. If you want to believe in an oblong earth, be my guest. However, if you are going to believe in anything -- I would suggest you start by believing in GOD -- believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- believe in His resurrection -- and believe that, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if you will sincerely believe you will receive eternal life. When you start believing in this aspect of God; then we can discuss your flat-earth Bible beliefs.

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything -- you just want to find a way to start an argument. Sorry, I am not interested in your "spitting contest."

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

You just do not subscribe to the Gospel of Bill. For Bill to assert that he knows Gods will and has all of the answers is JUST as arrogant and misguided as an atheist who claims he is POSITIVE there is no God.

Hi DD and VP,

True, a person's faith and salvation is known only to that person and God. However, as the Bible tells us -- we can know the "fruit" of that person's faith and salvation.

Jesus teaches us, in Matthew 7:16-18, "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

So, while you and I cannot say that we know that a person has or does not have salvation -- his/her "fruit" will be a good indicator of his/her spiritual condition.

DD, you say that we cannot know the will of God; not totally true. While we cannot say that we, as mortals, fully know the mind of God -- we can gain great insight through studying the Bible. And, that is what He wants us to do -- seek His face, seek His will, seek His guidance -- through prayer and Scripture study.

You really should try this some time. You will be amazed at the results and the spiritual effect upon your life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You CAN find great insight in studying the BIBLE. Ideas like not judging others or the love of money is evil or that the wolves will come in sheeps clothing.

You can find insight in ANY religious philosophy. The religion of one age is the myth of the next. I did not deny the existence of any God. Only the assertion that YOUR god is the ONLY way to salvation. What is salvation?

By what measure to you believe we should be judged? I hear your fundamentalism. I am not interested in a book of laws that negates spirituality.

Hi DD,

When you ask, "What is salvation?" -- that says it all. This shows that you have no spiritual discernment; therefore you are not a believer -- so, call me if you ever change your mind.

Jesus told us, in the Bible, if they reject the Gospel, shake the dust of their house or town off your shoes -- and move on.

So, let's move on.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray: Hi TCF, If you want to believe in a flat-earth; be my guest. If you want to believe in an oblong earth, be my guest. However, if you are going to believe in anything -- I would suggest you start by believing in GOD -- believe in the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross -- believe in His resurrection -- and believe that, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- if you will sincerely believe you will receive eternal life. When you start believing in this aspect of God; then we can discuss your flat-earth Bible beliefs.

Actually, I do not think you believe in anything -- you just want to find a way to start an argument. Sorry, I am not interested in your "spitting contest."

There you go again,BIll. Faith is known to God alone. ALONE. Not for you to speculate.

You just do not subscribe to the Gospel of Bill. For Bill to assert that he knows Gods will and has all of the answers is JUST as arrogant and misguided as an atheist who claims he is POSITIVE there is no God.

Hi DD and VP,

True, a person's faith and salvation is known only to that person and God. However, as the Bible tells us -- we can know the "fruit" of that person's faith and salvation.

Jesus teaches us, in Matthew 7:16-18, "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

So, while you and I cannot say that we know that a person has or does not have salvation -- his/her "fruit" will be a good indicator of his/her spiritual condition.

DD, you say that we cannot know the will of God; not totally true. While we cannot say that we, as mortals, fully know the mind of God -- we can gain great insight through studying the Bible. And, that is what He wants us to do -- seek His face, seek His will, seek His guidance -- through prayer and Scripture study.

You really should try this some time. You will be amazed at the results and the spiritual effect upon your life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You CAN find great insight in studying the BIBLE. Ideas like not judging others or the love of money is evil or that the wolves will come in sheeps clothing.

You can find insight in ANY religious philosophy. The religion of one age is the myth of the next. I did not deny the existence of any God. Only the assertion that YOUR god is the ONLY way to salvation. What is salvation?

By what measure to you believe we should be judged? I hear your fundamentalism. I am not interested in a book of laws that negates spirituality.

Hi DD,

When you ask, "What is salvation?" -- that says it all. This shows that you have no spiritual discernment; therefore you are not a believer -- so, call me if you ever change your mind.

Jesus told us, in the Bible, if they reject the Gospel, shake the dust of their house or town off your shoes -- and move on.

So, let's move on.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

When defined within the parameters of the teachings of Christ, religious fundamentalism HAS rejected the teachings of the Gospels.

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:
When defined within the parameters of the teachings of Christ, religious fundamentalism HAS rejected the teachings of the Gospels.

Hi DD,

This all depends upon whether you are studying the Bible -- or the writings and teachings of some cult church or secular organization.

Please show us, from the Bible, where the true Christian church rejects the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what you are defining as "religious fundmentalism" -- militant Islamists, militant Buddhists, militant Hindus all kill Christians and burn Christian churches; so, these I would define as "religious fundamentalist."

Conservative Christians, often called Fundamentalists by detractors -- but, a name I am honored to carry -- are those who believe the Bible to be the God inspired (God moved 40 mortal men living in diverse geographical locations, over a period of 1600 years, to write 66 books which we call the God authored Written Word of God -- and it has one unified theme: salvation offered to all men), inerrant (God is the Author and God does not make mistakes), literal (He is not a God of confusion) Written Word of God. Yes, this is what I know to be true.

And, no Conservative Christian (Fundamentalist) will ever deny or reject the teachings found in the Four Gospels; for they bring us the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ -- His love for us, His plan for us, His will for us -- and the Good News that He is coming again one day, in the clouds, to take His church out of this world. Then, through the Tribulation, He will refine the remnant of His chosen people, Israel. And, He will return again, His Second Coming, to establish His Millennial Reign on earth, He is bringing the Kingdom of God back to rule for one thousand years, the perfect theocracy ruled from the throne of David in Jerusalem. Finally, He will take all believers into eternity, there to live with God forever.

DD, it always amazes me that a non-believer (atheist?, agnostic?, secularist?, secularist humanist?, vanilla-flavored non-believer?) such as yourself -- knows so much about the Bible. How, when you do not truly study the Bible -- can you know what it truly teaches?

Or, are you relying upon your leaders, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, and their interpretation of Biblical writings as your guide to what the Bible teaches? That would truly be the blind leading the blind.

My Friend, if you want to have a serious discussion, if you want to be taken seriously when discussing the Bible -- find yourself a good Bible study in a Conservative Christian church -- become involved -- and, in about a year -- come back and let's discuss the Bible. Until then, you are just blowing Dawkins/Hitchens/et al smoke.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by dd75:
When defined within the parameters of the teachings of Christ, religious fundamentalism HAS rejected the teachings of the Gospels.

Hi DD,

This all depends upon whether you are studying the Bible -- or the writings and teachings of some cult church or secular organization.

Please show us, from the Bible, where the true Christian church rejects the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ.

I am not sure what you are defining as "religious fundmentalism" -- militant Islamists, militant Buddhists, militant Hindus all kill Christians and burn Christian churches; so, these I would define as "religious fundamentalist."

Conservative Christians, often called Fundamentalists by detractors -- but, a name I am honored to carry -- are those who believe the Bible to be the God inspired (God moved 40 mortal men living in diverse geographical locations, over a period of 1600 years, to write 66 books which we call the God authored Written Word of God -- and it has one unified theme: salvation offered to all men), inerrant (God is the Author and God does not make mistakes), literal (He is not a God of confusion) Written Word of God. Yes, this is what I know to be true.

And, no Conservative Christian (Fundamentalist) will ever deny or reject the teachings found in the Four Gospels; for they bring us the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ -- His love for us, His plan for us, His will for us -- and the Good News that He is coming again one day, in the clouds, to take His church out of this world. Then, through the Tribulation, He will refine the remnant of His chosen people, Israel. And, He will return again, His Second Coming, to establish His Millennial Reign on earth, He is bringing the Kingdom of God back to rule for one thousand years, the perfect theocracy ruled from the throne of David in Jerusalem. Finally, He will take all believers into eternity, there to live with God forever.

DD, it always amazes me that a non-believer (atheist?, agnostic?, secularist?, secularist humanist?, vanilla-flavored non-believer?) such as yourself -- knows so much about the Bible. How, when you do not truly study the Bible -- can you know what it truly teaches?

Or, are you relying upon your leaders, Dawkins, Hitchens, et al, and their interpretation of Biblical writings as your guide to what the Bible teaches? That would truly be the blind leading the blind.

My Friend, if you want to have a serious discussion, if you want to be taken seriously when discussing the Bible -- find yourself a good Bible study in a Conservative Christian church -- become involved -- and, in about a year -- come back and let's discuss the Bible. Until then, you are just blowing Dawkins/Hitchens/et al smoke.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You are very entertaining, Bill. There was a time when I did like goldfish crackers. I ate lots of goldfish crackers. I found something much more nourishing and I grew weary of goldfish crackers. Thank you for your offer, but I believe (as i am a believer) pass on your goldfish crackers.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

And, no Conservative Christian (Fundamentalist) will ever deny or reject the teachings found in the Four Gospels; for they bring us the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ -- His love for us, His plan for us, His will for us -- and the Good News that He is coming again one day, in the clouds, to take His church out of this world. Then, through the Tribulation, He will refine the remnant of His chosen people, Israel. And, He will return again, His Second Coming, to establish His Millennial Reign on earth, He is bringing the Kingdom of God back to rule for one thousand years, the perfect theocracy ruled from the throne of David in Jerusalem. Finally, He will take all believers into eternity, there to live with God forever.[QUOTE]

Count me a non-conservative if to be one I must buy into the wackatory notion that Christ is relapsing into a plan for the Jews that is nowhere described in Scripture and that is, in fact, contradicted by Scripture. God is not the author of confusion.

Stll waiting, Bill, for your promised "new thread" wherein you will try to explain why 2 Peter 2 is not discussing apostasy. It has been a while.