Security guard who stopped shooter credits God

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- "It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted a man who charged into her Colorado Springs church Sunday firing a weapon."

Does anyone besides me wonder where that god was before the shooter pulled the trigger?

That's the very reason I don't tell people I'm a Christian and all that bull. People just say things like that for an excuse or just to be cute.

Where was God when a very good person or baby dies ?

I'm not saying I don't believe in God. I'm just full of questions on things like this.

They always say that. It's like when a tornado or a natural disaster comes through and wipes away everything they have but they still say stuff like God was watching over us. Yeah right.

We all have to go sometime. That was just what happened. If everything was easy we would all believe. There has to be something bad so we can see good. There has to be tests in faith.

Apparently, some forgot about the doctrine of free will. Otherwise, we'd all be nice little automotons, just one step above robots.

This world wasn't meant to be paradise, although, if we make the right choices, it can be a pretty nice place or just short of hell.

Not to change the subject, but I think she deserves some recognition for taking out the gunman and saving no telling how many peoples lives.

I find it amazing that she was able to take him down like that. That is a very difficult thing for anyone. As for her reference to God, well to each his own. Why get so critical about her beliefs and statements? Live and let live.

As Howard pointed out, the gunman wasn't a puppet controlled by God. He was given the same choice to choose right or wrong as rest of us.

So, no, I didn't wonder where God was.

People make very real choices to stop listening to God. They keep edging farther and farther away from him, and finally shut him completely out of their lives. Where was God? Helping Jeanna Assam steady the pistol and helping her with breath control and trigger squeeze. Where he will really come into play, though, is in the coming months and years where she will be beset by nightmares and wondering "what if" and "why me". Just like He comforted me after I was in a very similar situation.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
As Howard pointed out, the gunman wasn't a puppet controlled by God. He was given the same choice to choose right or wrong as rest of us.

But if god was helping the security guard, then ONE of them was at least partly being controlled, correct?

Either God paralyzed the trigger finger of the gunman, slowed down time so that the security guard could react or played a Jedi Mind Trick on the gunman. Either way, there was evident something akin ot puppeteering going on there.

God must have not seen this one coming. Otherwise, how could he possibly let those other 9 people die yet help out the security guard?

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Where he will really come into play, though, is in the coming months and years where she will be beset by nightmares and wondering "what if" and "why me". J

Why in the world would god be there only after the fact? Why would he not simply stop the event to begin with?

It seems to be that it would be like me standing beside the railroad tracks calmly watching a toddler inch across the railroad tracks as a train barrels down upon her. I think most people would agree that that is inhuman. So why does god get a pass?

If there were no evil in the world, man wouldn't have to learn compassion.

Just like if there were no idiocy in the world, man wouldn't have to learn to blog.

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
If there were no evil in the world, man wouldn't have to learn compassion.

Isn't that like me stating that I need abuse my children so they will learn how to forgive?

Knock yourself out. You've got free will. However, if you don't, then maybe something is controlling you. Not your innate goodness...people don't have any; but a "conscience" or a "moral compass".

quote:

Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Knock yourself out. You've got free will.

But if we have "free will" then god does not intervene, correct?

A debate about free will versus predetermination is way beyond the scope of this blogsite. In any event, the central focus of any debate of this type always focuses on faith or feelings, rather than empirical facts. I'm not one of those fundamentalist christians who feels it is my solemn obligation to bring you to the light. Frankly, I don't care. Perhaps that's a sin in the eyes of some of my fellow christians, but I know who guides my life. If I am acting as some sort of meat puppet to a God who's pulling the strings, how could I ever know? I know that sometimes I make good choices and sometimes I make bad. I can see myself, at different times, going on a shooting rampage and being the person who stops one. Some stopping point inside me keeps me going in roughly the right direction, at least according to the dictates of my conscience. You can call it God, DNA, or the Great Pumpkin, but there is something inside me that whispers "Go For It!" or "Stay Away!" when faced with moral choices.
If we were driven by our primal instincts, we would rob, plunder, rape, and murder when the urge struck us. When someone stands up and is brave, that courage comes from somewhere...the heart, rage, or gifted from God. Who really knows? Jeanne Assam believes it came from God, or at least gives credit in that direction. That's good enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- "It seemed like it was me, the gunman, and God," said Jeanne Assam, describing her feelings as she confronted a man who charged into her Colorado Springs church Sunday firing a weapon."

Does anyone besides me wonder where that god was before the shooter pulled the trigger?

first my condolences to the family and friends of those brutally murdered.

fish, sadly a few of his followers lost their lives. according to some he knows all and sees all. so can we can surmise he was there? or that he was exercising his free will? what qualifies for divine intervention?

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
As Howard pointed out, the gunman wasn't a puppet controlled by God. He was given the same choice to choose right or wrong as rest of us.

But if god was helping the security guard, then ONE of them was at least partly being controlled, correct?

Either God paralyzed the trigger finger of the gunman, slowed down time so that the security guard could react or played a Jedi Mind Trick on the gunman. Either way, there was evident something akin to puppeteering going on there.

God must have not seen this one coming. Otherwise, how could he possibly let those other 9 people die yet help out the security guard?

You are so silly! That's probably why I like you.

The following is taken from a Bible study I had some time back that had a huge impact on me.

Sometimes God delivers us from the fire, which builds our faith.
Sometimes God delivers us through the fire, which refines our faith.
And sometimes he delivers us by the fire into his arms, which perfects our faith.

But He always delivers.

There are some things that I just cannot explain because I don't have the mind of God. He's too big for me to fully comprehend now. The more I learn, the more I know how much I have yet to learn. I will know fully one day though, which will be really really cool.

Don't you know?
God picks and chooses who he decides to "watch" over.
Some people are "blessed" and God was on their side while others are brutally murdered because God allowed free will.
Questioning faith is the same as blasphemy. Close your eyes and follow blindly, maybe God will "watch" over you, then again, maybe he won't.
It's a kind of a crapshoot I guess.

No one has ever been killed or murdered if you believe in the afterlife...for the soul can never be destroyed...only the container is destroyed, thus releasing the soul back into another form of existence......
Water is still water, eventhou it has been boiled into vapor...you may not see it, but it still exist...

See! We told you the training would pay off one day....and you said you didn't like guns...

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:
how could he possibly let those other 9 people die yet help out the security guard?

GoFish, I have to say that you do make a good point. I am sooo.. confused about God & how he works.
I know that it's not meant for us to understand everything, and I realize that we probably shouldn't question Him. But....what bothers me the most is the little ones.
Why are little babies & children beaten, raped & tortured? These are the innocent ones, what did they do to deserve this?
Then...on the other hand I have seen prayers answered. If only God would show me something. I know that he does exist but why are some prayers answered & some not?
People say it has to do with Faith. I don't have the faith of an apple seed but I sure would like to have some.
I'm not posing these questions to you for an answer because I know you don't believe He exist at all. I'm questioning because of your question, which I wonder about also.

...ok fish....now's your chance to be a hero..you have insisted this lady abandon her faith...

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:
Then...on the other hand I have seen prayers answered. If only God would show me something. I know that he does exist but why are some prayers answered & some not?

Perhaps we humans get our prayers answered by being moral and just? It stands to reason that if you walk a "good" line, you stand a much better chance of being a recipient of goodness. That seems to work for me.

Someone recently wrote a book about this entitled "The Secret."

And if you lie down with dogs . . . Well you know. I think the Hindu call this "Karma."

They (prayers) are all answered. Sometimes the answer is no.

fine...God chooses to watch over all of us and bless all of us. People make bad choices and the innocent are harmed by those choices. God doesn't want them to make bad choices. God is not responsible for someone's choices.

Chapter & verse please on that questioning faith thing? Or did you just make that up? I question everything; that's the only way to find an answer. I have NEVER felt convicted over that. I think God gave me an analytical mind for a reason...not to put on a shelf & hope for the best.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
fine...God chooses to watch over all of us and bless all of us. People make bad choices and the innocent are harmed by those choices. God doesn't want them to make bad choices. God is not responsible for someone's choices.

So God doesn't protect you from bad choices (yours or others')? So what is your definition of "watching over us"?
If watching over us is comparable to a show on discovery where they film wild lions and tigers and make no attempt to intervene when one of them eats a baby buffalo, I wonder what the point is.
What I am getting from you is that your reward comes when you die. I can accept that. I cannot accept that somehow we are rewarded on earth if I take into account how many believers die or fall into hardship every day because of somebody else's choice. God does not protect us. If he does, I want to know how he picks and chooses who deserves his protection.

...I would think God to be a pretty good shot..I would definately want him on my side in a "bear fight"...Bill would be second choice..or Deep and his cudgel...

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Chapter & verse please on that questioning faith thing? Or did you just make that up?

Joy, I really don't know the answer to your question. I don't think I would have made it up but then again, I'm getting more confused as time goes on. Maybe GoFish is right.

quote:

Originally posted by fineazell1:
I want to know how he picks and chooses who deserves his protection.

I would like to know that too.

This world wasn't meant to be paradise, although, if we make the right choices, it can be a pretty nice place or just short of hell.[QUOTE]

the REAL paradise comes in the next life, IF you choose it..

quote:

Originally posted by thehippiegirl:
paradise comes in the next life, IF you choose it..

IF you make it.....up to God to decide who makes it & who doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:

quote:

Originally posted by fineazell1:
I want to know how he picks and chooses who deserves his protection.

I would like to know that too.

My prayer is... “If I should die before I wake...”

If my life is taken, it won’t be because God wasn’t looking out for me. His only obligation is to take my soul when my time comes... if I am worthy.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:

quote:

Originally posted by thehippiegirl:
paradise comes in the next life, IF you choose it..

IF you make it.....up to God to decide who makes it & who doesn't.

God can be trusted to do what He says He will do. It is not God who chooses who makes it, but rather it is our decision. God turns none away who are willing to put their trust in Him.

quote:

Originally posted by Taciturn:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Chapter & verse please on that questioning faith thing? Or did you just make that up?

Joy, I really don't know the answer to your question. I don't think I would have made it up but then again, I'm getting more confused as time goes on. Maybe GoFish is right.

I was responding to fine (fineazell), Tactiturn, who said..."Questioning faith is the same as blasphemy. Close your eyes and follow blindly, maybe God will "watch" over you, then again, maybe he won't." Sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by fineazell1:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
fine...God chooses to watch over all of us and bless all of us. People make bad choices and the innocent are harmed by those choices. God doesn't want them to make bad choices. God is not responsible for someone's choices.

So God doesn't protect you from bad choices (yours or others')? So what is your definition of "watching over us"?
If watching over us is comparable to a show on discovery where they film wild lions and tigers and make no attempt to intervene when one of them eats a baby buffalo, I wonder what the point is.
What I am getting from you is that your reward comes when you die. I can accept that. I cannot accept that somehow we are rewarded on earth if I take into account how many believers die or fall into hardship every day because of somebody else's choice. God does not protect us. If he does, I want to know how he picks and chooses who deserves his protection.

I should not say God 'never' protects others from the consequences of sin. That's a little arrogant on my part actually since God is able to do that if He chooses to. But I'd say that in my experience, due to free will given to all, he doesn't protect us from the consequences sin. He forgives if we ask for it & turn away from our sin, but the consequences remain.

An easy example of this is a criminal that accepts Christ as Savior, is sorry for his crimes & will not repeat them, but he/she still does jail time & those that he/she hurt by his/her crimes are still hurting (until they turn to God for healing and peace of course). A "harder to swallow" example of this is an abused child. It took prayer, studying scripture, listening to God & God ministering to me for me to come to grips with the innocent being hurt. He never promised us an easy life, just the opposite actually. Jesus said in John 16:33 "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

I might add here that sin separates us from God. If you want to be connected, you have to first believe in Jesus Christ and his reason for coming (Rom 10:9-10). You likely won't go far in your understanding of God prior to that.

The good news is there is nothing we can suffer here on earth that the presence of God in our lives cannot heal. This has been true in my life.

Perhaps what stands between you and an understanding of God is the same for many...pride. You are not willing to submit to the one who created you and everything around you. Who is He to control the world and tell you what you should do or choose this or that? Well, He's God. Without Him, you wouldn't be here nor anything else. He's the Boss, but He's so much more. As I bent my stubborn neck and listened to God, my inner life is better. When I did things my way, my inner life was a mess. It was through submission that I was healed, renewed and found the peace that passes all understanding, that I found the abundant life & excitement in each new discovery.

I don't know if this helps anybody and I am far (so far!) from having all the answers. This is just what I have found to be true. God has all the answers & He is waiting to answer them. I've been angry at God, shouted at Him, cried in His arms and felt His love & peace pour into me. He's a big God; He can handle it. Just talk to Him if you have questions.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
..

..."Questioning faith is the same as blasphemy. Close your eyes and follow blindly, maybe God will "watch" over you, then again, maybe he won't."
That wasn't a scripture quote, it was sarcasm.

Your post is sweet. I'll first start by saying I am not trying to change anybody's beliefs or opinions, I am only stating mine.

You say God is here and God is in control but in the same breath you say God allows free will. I've always been confused how God is all knowing but God allows free will. If God is all knowing and already knows what the future holds, why would so many bad things happen to "good" people?

I guess what I am trying to say is aside from the promise of "heaven" and the "after life" what does God do?

Aside from the Bible where is the proof of God?

People say God exists, it's in the Bible.
I say where did the Bible come from?
People say the Bible came from God.
I say how do you know God exists?
People say because it's in the Bible.
I say where did the Bible come from?
People say the Bible came from God.
I say how do you know God exists?
People say because it's in the Bible.
I say where did the Bible come from?
etc, etc, etc,

You see my point?

Without one there isn't the other. I have always wondered why, with so much power, God would leave EVERYTHING up to faith. I have always wondered why God would allow my brain to be so analytical yet provide NO comfort of proof for my questions (aside from the Bible which again requires total faith).

So religion is trvial to me. I go back to my original statement and say this, God does not protect us. God is a promise that when this life is over, it just begins. Aside from that and the peace you can have in your heart, God makes no guarantees.

In one of your sentences you say my pride gets in the way of my understanding of God.

What is it that gets in the way of your understanding?

I ask that because you still don't have enough understanding to explain how the most powerful being, the creator, the one and only God can sit back and allow a child to be beaten, raped, or murdered. Free will? What is the point of giving your life to God if something as simple as protecting a child is beyond the scope of his earthly rewards?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by _Joy_:
He never promised us an easy life, just the opposite actually. I might add here that sin separates us from God.

But what has an innocent baby or child done to deserve being tortured or killed? What sin could a little one do to seperate itself from God?
As to the easy life statement, then God means for us to have a "hard" life"?

you have to first believe in Jesus Christ and his reason for coming (Rom 10:9-10). You likely won't go far in your understanding of God prior to that.

That part is easy, it's the things that go along with it that is hard.

Does anyone but me find it rather ODD that a gun toting security guard is in Church???

I have NEVER seen or heard of that in my life!!

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
I was responding to fine (fineazell), Tactiturn, Sorry!

Oh, ok. I assumed it was for me since I made that statement about faith. Thanks for letting me know.

quote:

Originally posted by Kindred:
Does anyone but me find it rather ODD that a gun toting security guard is in Church???

This is what was in that news article. Must have been huge since it's referred to as a "megachurch".

"the megachurch instituted security precautions after the shootings at the Denver area mission center."