See You at the Pole

Today's times Daily printed and article concerning the annual "See You at the Pole" event.  This has come to be an annual event involving the gathering of school children around the school flagpole for religious purposes--prayer, hymn singing, scripture reading, etc.  The article is at:http://www.timesdaily.com/stories/Students-gather-for-See-You-at-the-Pole,182481?content_source=&category_id=&search_filter=students+gather&event_mode=&event_ts_from=&list_type=&order_by=&order_sort=&content_class=&sub_type=stories&town_id=

 

The article quotes the lament of a Muscle Shoals High School student, Katori Mobley, to this effect:

 

“It saddens me that there are Christian students in other places who don’t have this amazing opportunity,” he said. “I consider it a real privilege to be able to do this and I’m thrilled to see so many students in attendance.”

 

I have to wonder where this student gets his information.  The See You at the Pole event is observed all over this country.  It s constitutionality is affirmed in a Supreme Court interpretation of the First Amendment (Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District).  Its legal and constitutional validity are affirmed by the ACLU!   The legality of  See You at the Pole and other student-led religious exercises is expressly recognized  in Presidential guidance published by the U.S. Department of Education during the Clinton Administration, and remaining in force today

 

So where, one might ask Mr. Mobley, are those “Christian students in other places who don’t have this amazing opportunity”?  One suspects that Mr. Mobley could not cite any example of a public school where the See You at the Pole event has been prohibited.  If there is any place where such prohibition is in place, it can easily be dislodged.  Any number of religious freedom advocacy groups (e.g. Rutherford Institute, American Center for Law and Justice) would find it a simple matter to appropriately notify the offending school system of its defective policy and persuade it to abandon such a prohibition.  I suspect that even the ACLU would be willing to intervene to correct such a  situation.

 

I suspect that Mr. Mobley’s undocumented, unverified assertion proceeds from his having heard or read from extreme and ignorant elements the religious right, their sundry and unremitting jeremiads about the alleged denial of religious freedom and alleged rampant hostility to the Christian religion within the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Having been thus propagandized, Mr. Mobley has assumed that there must be public schools in this nation where the evil anti-Christian forces have interdicted the opportunity for public school students to enjoy the kind of religious observance he and his fellows enjoyed yesterday in this Bible Belt community.


Mr. Mobley, should he care to do a little research on this matter, might be able to turn his sadness into joy.  If Mr. Mobley would, in addition, do a little additional research on constitutional and definitional matters, he might discover that his opportunity to gather 'round the pole is more than a "privilege;" it is a RIGHT.  The difference is significant.


Additional useful information on this topic is available from the conservative American Center for Law and Justice at http://media.aclj.org/pdf/syatpletter.pdf

I yam what I yam and that's all I yam--but it is enough!

Original Post

I think you are a bit harsh on a young student.

 

He did know it is his right:

“It’s really so amazing and uplifting to me, the unity that is represented here today, right here in front of this school full of administrators who allow us to exercise our rights and our freedoms,” Mobley said,

 

As for his statement, how many articles have we seen of Christians being persecuted? The boy in Texas for saying homosexuality was wrong easily comes to mind. 

Mobley was most likely thinking it would be harder to organize in some schools, such as in very liberal states.

No, I hadn't heard of it at all. And B- someone heard him besides his friend.

 

Dakota was in a German class at the high school when the conversation shifted to religion and homosexuality in Germany. At some point during the conversation, he turned to a friend and said that he was a Christian and “being a homosexual is wrong.”

“It wasn’t directed to anyone except my friend who was sitting behind me,” Dakota told Fox. “I guess [the teacher] heard me. He started yelling. He told me he was going to write me an infraction and send me to the office.”



Originally Posted by b50m:

Best, if you don't know the story, you need to read it first.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...ity/?test=latestnews

 

The statement was his personal opinion made to one classmate, not the whole group.

*****

More significantly, the student's suspension was lifted following intervention by the Liberty Counsel.  The situation has been corrected, and the Liberty Counsel "will monitor the situation to make sure there is no future retaliation."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...stnews#ixzz1ZLz4zhrd

Originally Posted by b50m:

I think you are a bit harsh on a young student.

 

He did know it is his right:

“It’s really so amazing and uplifting to me, the unity that is represented here today, right here in front of this school full of administrators who allow us to exercise our rights and our freedoms,” Mobley said,

 

As for his statement, how many articles have we seen of Christians being persecuted? The boy in Texas for saying homosexuality was wrong easily comes to mind. 

Mobley was most likely thinking it would be harder to organize in some schools, such as in very liberal states.

****

 

It is distinctly not a "privilege;" it is a right and should not have been referred to as a "privilege", even if he elsewhere used the term "right." That he employed these two different terms to describe the same thing evidences a degree of confusion.

 

The German teacher seems to be getting extracurricular, to say the least, by his off-topic discussion and posting of information on homosexuality.  German is a tough language to teach and to learn, and this teacher needs to maximize the use his classroom time by sticking to his assigned subject matter instead of using  class time and resources to promote his personal pro-homosexuality agenda!

Originally Posted by b50m:

He is just a kid conten, give him a break.

*******

I gave him a break.  I did not call him a programmed puppet spouting unverified right wing assumptions absorbed by osmosis from the overweening ultraconservative community he happens to have been born into.

 

He is a indeed a kid, but kids need to be disabused of the rampant right-wing nonsense being propagated concerning the First Amendment.  Educating such misinformed kids will help prevent the replication, in their generation, of the ultra-rightist nuttiness embraced by all too many of their parents and other alleged adults.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Where did it mention the kid's political leanings IF he even has any? Oh someone please explain to me why the left wing religious nuts are better then the right wing religious nuts!!!

Because they say so!

 

 

Hi all,

 

Just a wee bit of history.  Most are familiar with Pastor Greg Laurie, Harvest Christian Fellowship and Harvest Crusades.  It was at a "Meet You At The Pole" or a similar group meeting of Christian students on campus like the Pole event that Greg Laurie, as a very trouble teenager, became a Christian believer. 

 

Laurie's mom had been married and divorced multiple times; Laurie was into drugs, etc.; Laurie was a very troubled teenager.  Then, at a Pole type event -- he became a Christian believer -- and he has had a major impact on the Christian world.

 

That is the kind of good which can come from such Christian events on campus.  And, that is exactly whey the ACLU and all other atheist organizations are fighting tooth and nail to keep as much Christian activity as possible off school campuses.  They know the power of Christians gathered in His name.  And, they know the power of our God -- even as they fight to deny Him.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

That is the kind of good which can come from such Christian events on campus.  And, that is exactly whey the ACLU and all other atheist organizations are fighting tooth and nail to keep as much Christian activity as possible off school campuses.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 I'd never heard of the guy. He looks pretty old, too old to have gone to one of the "pole" meetings, but I guess it's possible they were doing it back then. I never heard of them when I was in school, and still hadn't until lately. Anyone wanting to turn their life around can do it without your god. That's one danger of religion, trying to convince people that is the only way they can change, and if they just can't believe, and are unable to accept that they don't, it conflicts them even more.  Christians are in the majority, you like to brag about that so I'm sure you won't dispute it. Now where are the majority of those troubled teens and adults coming from? Apparently from christian homes. You indoctrinate them with the myth and then turn them out on society to deal with when they find out their god doesn't make it all better.

 

I had rather see a person find it within themselves to overcome. Because then it's real, no going back, they haven't exchanged one crutch for another.(your god) When a person turns their life around on their own it "sticks". No "backsliding", no constant worrying that they might make a misstep, no fretting that they might not be pleasing a god, they just move forward and live. I have heard many people through out my life talk about the things they were doing like drinking, drugs, running around, and one day they just "woke up" and ask themselves what the heck were they doing. No praying, no finding god, no "heavenly" intervention, just them deciding they weren't going to act like a fool, keep ruining their life and hurting their loved ones anymore. I guess you can say their common sense, love for their family, and desire to survive finally took over. They found their worth.

 

 I've heard christians say that humans are "weak" and need the lord to keep them strong and on the "right path". That's so wrong in so many ways and it is the wrong message to send to a young impressionable person or adult. They should be taught they are worth something and that anything they need for true happiness is right there inside them to tap into. To me, a person claiming a god is responsible for their happiness is selling themselves short and giving up on themselves, and it is not a "cure". They've only put a bandage on the wound instead of healing it as they have the power to do, and they can't live a truly happy life because they worry constantly that the wound is going to get worse. So they have to keep applying that bandage.

 

So no bill, no one is interested in stopping anyone from doing "good", I wish you could do a bit of good but you aren't wired that way, You're way to busy fretting over your gaping wound.

 

I think the 'weak' part is weak in spirit, not physically weak. And using religion as a crutch because you cannot face the world will not work either.

Instead of a bandage to that wound as you put it, faith is more like a super charged cappuccino that gives you even more lift and fight. You are still doing the healing but you also have an energizer bunny with you.

LOL

 

Watching too many commercials lately.

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Anyone wanting to turn their life around can do it without your god. That's one danger of religion, trying to convince people that is the only way they can change, and if they just can't believe, and are unable to accept that they don't, it conflicts them even more.  . Now where are the majority of those troubled teens and adults coming from? Apparently from christian homes. You indoctrinate them with the myth and then turn them out on society to deal with when they find out their god doesn't make it all better.

 

I had rather see a person find it within themselves to overcome. Because then it's real, no going back, they haven't exchanged one crutch for another.(your god) When a person turns their life around on their own it "sticks". No "backsliding", no constant worrying that they might make a misstep, no fretting that they might not be pleasing a god, they just move forward and live. I have heard many people through out my life talk about the things they were doing like drinking, drugs, running around, and one day they just "woke up" and ask themselves what the heck were they doing. No praying, no finding god, no "heavenly" intervention, just them deciding they weren't going to act like a fool, keep ruining their life and hurting their loved ones anymore. I guess you can say their common sense, love for their family, and desire to survive finally took over. They found their worth.

 

 I've heard christians say that humans are "weak" and need the lord to keep them strong and on the "right path". That's so wrong in so many ways and it is the wrong message to send to a young impressionable person or adult. They should be taught they are worth something and that anything they need for true happiness is right there inside them to tap into. To me, a person claiming a god is responsible for their happiness is selling themselves short and giving up on themselves, and it is not a "cure". They've only put a bandage on the wound instead of healing it as they have the power to do, and they can't live a truly happy life because they worry constantly that the wound is going to get worse. So they have to keep applying that bandage.

 

So no bill, no one is interested in stopping anyone from doing "good", I wish you could do a bit of good but you aren't wired that way, You're way to busy fretting over your gaping wound.

 

_______________________________

Jenn, you bring up some good points & I agree with you.

People can make their Christian existence miserable & make it miserable for the people around them. I don't think God intended it to be that way, it's a human flaw within their self to be perfect & shove religion down the throat of others. I've never seen any instance in the Bible where God shoved it down anyone's throat or tried to force it on people like Bill does.

 

I know someone that thought his inner worth was dependent on how God saw him so he strove for years to be perfect, & it made him a miserable human being.

 

You have to feel sorry for people like Bill. He' s trying to "work" himself into Heaven by winning many stones for his crown. I've said many times that I don't believe Bill is a Christian & I stand by that. He does have a gaping wound & evidently doesn't realize it or just chooses to ignore it.

 

If you are truly happy in your existence as an Atheist, let go of your anger toward God & the people that try to shove their belief down your throat. You can discuss your Atheism & opinion of religion w/o anger. I say this with respect because I think of you as my friend & because I like you. For someone that says they don't believe in God, you come across as someone that's very angry with Him. How can you be angry with something you don't believe in?

 

I'm not an Atheist. I can't say 100% that He doesn't exist. Why? Because I feel that anger too. I finally decided that I can't say He doesn't exist because of the anger I do feel toward Him. Is it my raising, because I was taught to believe? I don't know. I just know that if He exist, I would like to see prayers answered. I would love to see those miracles that the Bible speaks of. I would like to see more Christians show the love/compassion the Bible speaks of instead of so much condemnation from them.

 

I in no way mean to offend you with my opinion. I think you are a precious human being that has been hurt & ridiculed for your opinion & the way you believe, IF you really believe the way you say. And sometimes it gets to be a little much. Been there, done that.

I'm sorry you see it as anger semi, and I am sorry you have to live with your anger. But I hope and truly think that one day you will work through it.  You use the same argument that they try to run by an atheist, "you hate or are angry" with god. I am not angry at, nor do I hate, something that does not exist. That argument from them is only to avoid having to answer for the things they do. As I told bill, it's the things people do to others in the name of that god that I can't tolerate and I fight against.  And I have to correct you on one other thing, they can't hurt me. You have to care about and respect someone before they can hurt you. They can ridicule and lie about me but I just consider the source and mark it up to their ignorance. What bothers me is knowing they do it to others that may be conflicted and going through things and the last thing they need is the ridicule and insults. One more reason for atheists to post here, to let those conflicted people know there is nothing wrong with them for having doubts and questions no matter what the so called christians might say.

Amazing how someone can be so obsessed as to pick apart things said by a kid and make a big deal on a slight disagreement on how something is viewed (whether or not students in other parts of the country have difficulty with see you at the pole ) and the choice of one wrong word (privilege instead of right).  Anyway, see you at the pole is a good thing, it takes zero time away from school, and my school age kids can be seen at the pole every year since elementary school.

B- I know what they meant by "weak" and that it's not physically weak. I don't think people are  "weak in spirit".  Sometimes life just gets them down and they might appear "weak". But people have amazing strengths within themselves and they can, and very often do, tap into those strengths without any "divine intervention".

Jenn, you don’t have to apologize to me. Evidently I was wrong & I should be the one to apologize. I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong about something, & I’m sorry that I offended you. I don’t have to live with anger & do not live with it. I don’t know why I even bother to come to this forum because that’s usually when I get angry.

I get angry when someone judges others so harshly. I get angry when I see “Christians” tell others they are going to Hell when they are not our Judge. I get angry when people like Bill Gray tries to convince others that they’re a Christian, but there’s no evidence of it. Words are cheap & Bill has a whole vocabulary of them.

 

You were dead on when you said we have to care about & respect someone before they can hurt us. But people can be cruel to the point that it does hurt. It’s almost like that bully on the playground that hurts others with his words & actions. I’ve often said that Bill ridicule’s & insults others to make himself feel good, just like that schoolyard bully.

I hope you will accept my apology & that we can remain friends.

Semi, you don't  owe me any kind of apology. And if I have ever offended you I can assure you it was not on purpose and I apoligize for that. And yes, people can be cruel, and the most cruel people I have ever seen claim to be christians. But I am sincere when I say they can't bother me, I can stand toe to toe with them or just walk away if they're just so rabid that they aren't hearing me, but I do worry about other people more vulnerable or helpless that can't do that, especially children.

When Mr. Mobley spoke these words he was not wrong we have a Privliage from God a right from man. If you would have read the whole artical it states that more schools partcipated this year in the See you at the pole than last year. That shows that there are still schools that don't have the chance to gather together and worship God just as Mr. Mobley got to expericance on that day.

Originally Posted by Bishop:

a right from man. If you would have read the whole artical it states that more schools partcipated this year in the See you at the pole than last year. That shows that there are still schools that don't have the chance to gather together and worship God

_______________________________

A right from man to do what?

If kids want to gather around a pole once a year at school, I see nothing wrong with it. I hope they don't try to force it on anyone, it should be a choice.

School is a place to get an education. If they want to worship God, there's a church on every street corner, with doors open 3 times a week.

quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
If kids want to gather around a pole once a year at school, I see nothing wrong with it.  I hope they don't try to force it on anyone, it should be a choice.  School is a place to get an educationIf they want to worship God, there's a church on every street corner, with doors open 3 times a week.

Hi Chick,

 

Yes, school is the place to get an education.   But, how do you feel about having clubs which hold meetings, in none teaching times, on school property?  Which would you allow to hold meetings:  GLBT? Chess?  Muslim, Hindu, etc.?  How about a Christian club?   Which of these would you allow?  And, which would YOU ban?   Or, would you ban all outside activity except academics on school property?

 

Regarding your second comment -- church doors open 3 times a week.   No true Christian worships God only three times a week.  We worship Him 24/7/365.   None of us, especially students, turn off our "spiritual self" when we participate in other activities.  As a matter of fact, our "spiritual self" greatly influences how we do those other activities.  

 

That is why it is not only desirable, but, actually imperative that our Christian, spiritual, light shine at all times, in all our activities -- especially for those governing our local communities, states, and nation.   A big dose of Christian influence in our governing bodies can only make America stronger.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,

Yes, school is the place to get an education.   But, how do you feel about having clubs which hold meetings, in none teaching times, on school property?  Which would you allow to hold meetings:  GLBT? Chess?  Muslim, Hindu, etc.?  How about a Christian club?   Which of these would you allow?  And, which would YOU ban?   Or, would you ban all outside activity except academics on school property?

 

Regarding your second comment -- church doors open 3 times a week.   No true Christian worships God only three times a week.  We worship Him 24/7/365.   None of us, especially students, turn off our "spiritual self" when we participate in other activities.  As a matter of fact, our "spiritual self" greatly influences how we do those other activities.  

 

That is why it is not only desirable, but, actually imperative that our Christian, spiritual, light shine at all times, in all our activities -- especially for those governing our local communities, states, and nation.   A big dose of Christian influence in our governing bodies can only make America stronger.

Bill

_____________________________

Wouldn’t be up to me concerning those meetings. That’s the call of the Board of Education. What would be up to me is if I allowed my child to attend one or all of any such meetings.

 

True Christian? So is that what you’re calling yourself now? I don’t see your “spiritual self” having much influence around here, don’t know about those other activities of yours.  

 

Exactly when do you turn on that spiritual light?

That big dose of "Christian influence" in our governing bodies hasn’t made America stronger yet that I’ve seen. America is in pretty bad shape right now.

 

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