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I am asking an honest question and would like to have some serious answers,and that goes to you NBD,I do not want simply copy/pasted crap.
The government has created and administered medicaid and medicare(and numerous other health benefits) since its beginning,it is a grand F'ed up mess. Now those in favor of a single national plan PLEASE explain to simple minded lil ole me, Just How It is Expected to be any better?
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smurph,
I must first say I am not in favor of it, and let me explain one reason why since you have brought this up.
If the government already has an insurance plan in place (ie, Medicare, and Medicaid (although Medicaid is run thu state channels) why do they not just funnel the money which they wish to spend into these programs, and open them up for the folks they feel that need it?
The reason is because they know the programs are already strained and cannot be kept in a functional state if they allow more people into them.
They wish to compete with the private insurers in order to eventaully take the market. Many will accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist, but the fact remains that there is an agenda here, and rather than adding cars onto the train, they wish to build a whole new railroad.
as I recall medicaid and medicare have only been around since the 60's and have pretty much broke us.

This new so called health care plan is yet another ploy to give more to those who contribute the least at the rest of our expense..
next up on the table I think is going to be reparations out of that 3/4 of a trillion Obama is sitting on that really doesn't exist.. This will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back I believe
If I remember smurph, you too work in the healthcare field. We both know from what we have seen that these programs need to be revamped. Many on these programs, not all but many, absue them, especially in regards to the ER. The abuse will be tripled and the resources which are already strained will finally break the system. Just beacuse you open a program and say you are going to provide access, does not mean it will happen. We have already seen an exodus of primary care doctors for these very reasons. You cannot make new ones in a week or a month.
I guess it all boils down to who do who do you trust more, a corporate CEO or a government commissar. Yes, it is true that the first priority of a corporation such as an Insurance company is to make a profit for its shareholders and that sometimes people within those companies make hardhearted decisions, but there are always state and consumer organizations that will intervene if the wronged consumer can make a good case. Try that with a government entity and at best a person will have years to wait, provided one doesn't die in the interim.

Having worked for a federal entity, I can assure you that decisions follow the chain of command. When a new administration shows up and puts its mark on the bureaucracy, sometimes the people we supposedly work for(the taxpayer) are put on the bottom of the priority list. Sometimes (well, maybe a lot of the time) a government manager behaves like a feudal lord and places his priorities on expanding his/her fiefdom and not on the organizational purpose. If the orders from a higher lord in a nationalized insurance company is to cut spending, guess who comes up short in the deal, the policy holder.
Nobody is trying to adopt a single plan , the way I understand it ,option is the key word, trying to give people an option is the plan.What is wrong with giving the insurance companies some competition and make them cover some bad risk.right now they are betting only on sure things. If you have a preexisting condition they won't cover it .If they find something in your past that maybe you have forgotten ,they will drop you. let's level the playing field.
ka-o,
The problem is that the playing field will not be leveled. An insurance company must either break even or make a profit, if not it is losing its venture capital which is what is uses to pay for the procedures. When the government runs a program, they can do it at a loss, it is your tax dollars and they are never spent wisely because they answer to no one.
no allow a program with this general operating sytem to be put up as public option with no requirements for entry. The first thing which will happen is that businesses will be able to save some money by doing away with their insurance plans and sending their employees with money in their hands to get their insurance thru this plan. Within months, the plan will be so bloated and top heavy it will collapse. it will then be forced to do several things. First it will began to deny access to the items which most insurance companies already allow (yearly diagnostic tests, hip replacements in the elderly, etc). Second as a government enitity they can then dictate what they will reimburse for a procedure. In most cases for instance now in Medicare, a hospital is reimbursed less for a total hip surgery than the cost of the hip joint itself. Hopstials will be unable to perform any surgeries, even for those who have good enough insurance to cover them.
This is about a system which will bring everyone down. It will not bring anything up in value, but bring everyone down to a lower level of care.
Like I said if you want to do a batter job, apply the money to the system you have in place, regulate it better, apply some tort reform, and allow people and companies to go across state lines to buy insurance ( that in and of itself would provide more competition and lower prices on premiums).
BTW, no insurance company is going to allow someone to enter into their coverage with a pre-existing condition unless they have previous coverage. There is no way to be able to cover that type of problem.
so lets say his plan is passed,set into motion. And as you stated,companies begin to stop carrying insurance for their employees. Now after awhile this is going to collapse insurance companies,putting even more people on the unemployment list.
Taxes will HAVE to be increased to meet the needs of the program as time goes on.
quote:
What is wrong with giving the insurance companies some competition and make them cover some bad risk.right now they are betting only on sure things

Insurance companies ALREADY have competition,against other insurance companies. How in heavens name is throwing the government into the mix going to do anything but negative results down the road.
Heck, now that I think about it, this plan oughta be a windfall for the doctors. Since all insurance will be free, we won't have to be as careful. I can go ahead and eat the chee-burger. When I get obese, I'll just go to the doctor and get one of those gut-bands because, after all, I can't help being obese and my insurance will pay some ucky doc to do it.

I may take up smoking again. After all, my gummint will take care of me from the womb to the tomb.

Win win for everyone!
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
Mr. Tyates,

Since "pre existing" conditions will have to be covered, it's also "better" that we won't even have to pay for in-sho-ance any more. I can simply wait until I get sick THEN buy the insurance.

Its a win-win for everyone, right?

Thats the way I see it as well. Wait till you get sick and then run out and buy that policy, the best you can afford, you are gonna need it.
Here is the joker in the deck...no one is talking about this aspect of Obama-care, BUT when the government run system of Medicare was launched in the 1960s, the "Baby Boomers" were gainfully employed, now the system is "broke" and the employment situation is upside down, in other words, you can tax rich people and the middleclass into oblivion and still not have the funding needed..now, throw in a few million non-taxed illegals.
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:
where did any of you get the idea that this is going to be free?

It will only be free if you are an illegal or live in the bottoms, drink 40's, smoke dope, draw welfare and food stamps all day instead of working for a living


That's one of the most racist statements I've heard in awhile. Live "in the bottoms?" I thought we were past that kind of attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:

It will only be free if you are an illegal or live in the bottoms, drink 40's, smoke dope, draw welfare and food stamps all day instead of working for a living


No, that's what we have today !

Get a grip, better for all to pay something for some type of insurance, than for a few of us to pay it all like today.
I am sick of supporting the entitlement crowd period.. except in the circumstance of physical or mental disability.

It's not me or mines problem that we have millions of people who think we owe them something.. generation after generation that live in public housing, draw checks, scam the system for everything they can get including food stamps.. hell I don't have to itemize.. EVERY FREAKING NEED THEY HAVE IN LIFE PROVIDED BY MY TAX DOLLARS!!! and then run me and my country down, all the while never making one, NOT ONE EFFORT to do anything for themselves.
This whole **** deal IS a race issue.. all of it. this Obama guy is "The one we have all been waiting for" alright.. he just never got pressed on who "we" and "all" is.
It isn't me, it isn't the average person who works a 40 hour or more week just to make ends meet while millions of others have EVERYTHING handed to them.
I'm sick of all of it, the lies, the manipulations.. at least be honest for Christ's sake and call a spade a spade.
Pelosi say's that if you oppose Obama's nefarious plans you must be a nazi and a racist.. well then I guess I am one because this guy is screwing my country up the tail end and I don't like it.
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:

It will only be free if you are an illegal or live in the bottoms, drink 40's, smoke dope, draw welfare and food stamps all day instead of working for a living


No, that's what we have today !

Get a grip, better for all to pay something for some type of insurance, than for a few of us to pay it all like today.


WHAT???? "...all to pay something..."
Are you kidding me...?? that is the problem, under Obama-care Health care reform, MILLIONS will pay nothing, Obama admitted this today in Bozeman, MT. They will eliminate certain tax deductions (Tax increase), plus, they will bleed the rich, they shouldn't mind kicking in more chided Obama.
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:

It will only be free if you are an illegal or live in the bottoms, drink 40's, smoke dope, draw welfare and food stamps all day instead of working for a living


No, that's what we have today !

Get a grip, better for all to pay something for some type of insurance, than for a few of us to pay it all like today.


WHAT???? "...all to pay something..."
Are you kidding me...?? that is the problem, under Obama-care Health care reform, MILLIONS will pay nothing, Obama admitted this today in Bozeman, MT. They will eliminate certain tax deductions (Tax increase), plus, they will bleed the rich, they shouldn't mind kicking in more chided Obama.


you still haven't got a grip. Again, what we have today is we are paying "MILLIONS" for people who do not have health care insurance when they get sick and go to the ER and are treated free. That fact will probably not change one way or another, except these people may be treated by a doctor and not in the ER which would also save MILLIONS.
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:
I am sick of supporting the entitlement crowd period.. except in the circumstance of physical or mental disability.

It's not me or mines problem that we have millions of people who think we owe them something.. generation after generation that live in public housing, draw checks, scam the system for everything they can get including food stamps.. hell I don't have to itemize.. EVERY FREAKING NEED THEY HAVE IN LIFE PROVIDED BY MY TAX DOLLARS!!! and then run me and my country down, all the while never making one, NOT ONE EFFORT to do anything for themselves.
This whole **** deal IS a race issue.. all of it. this Obama guy is "The one we have all been waiting for" alright.. he just never got pressed on who "we" and "all" is.
It isn't me, it isn't the average person who works a 40 hour or more week just to make ends meet while millions of others have EVERYTHING handed to them.
I'm sick of all of it, the lies, the manipulations.. at least be honest for Christ's sake and call a spade a spade.
Pelosi say's that if you oppose Obama's nefarious plans you must be a nazi and a racist.. well then I guess I am one because this guy is screwing my country up the tail end and I don't like it.


The real truth is that all of the things that you list that really piss you off were created while BARRAK was a baby. He hasn't been in office a year yet give the dude a break jump in his **** next year you don't really have viable sample of his deeds yet.Another thing is there has been a big change in the well fare system the stereotypical well fare moma is a lot harder to find these days.Take a look behind the counter the next time you get a burger Sister is not there because she wants to be.
quote:
Originally posted by teyates:
quote:
Originally posted by Dawkins7:
Mr. Tyates,

Since "pre existing" conditions will have to be covered, it's also "better" that we won't even have to pay for in-sho-ance any more. I can simply wait until I get sick THEN buy the insurance.

Its a win-win for everyone, right?

Thats the way I see it as well. Wait till you get sick and then run out and buy that policy, the best you can afford, you are gonna need it.


From my understanding, They are going to FORCE people to have insurance, if not they are going to fine you and collect it when you pay your taxes. I also have heard rumors(no facts to back it up) that they are going to have access to your financial accounts.
quote:
Originally posted by ka-0-hub:
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:
I am sick of supporting the entitlement crowd period.. except in the circumstance of physical or mental disability.

It's not me or mines problem that we have millions of people who think we owe them something.. generation after generation that live in public housing, draw checks, scam the system for everything they can get including food stamps.. hell I don't have to itemize.. EVERY FREAKING NEED THEY HAVE IN LIFE PROVIDED BY MY TAX DOLLARS!!! and then run me and my country down, all the while never making one, NOT ONE EFFORT to do anything for themselves.
This whole **** deal IS a race issue.. all of it. this Obama guy is "The one we have all been waiting for" alright.. he just never got pressed on who "we" and "all" is.
It isn't me, it isn't the average person who works a 40 hour or more week just to make ends meet while millions of others have EVERYTHING handed to them.
I'm sick of all of it, the lies, the manipulations.. at least be honest for Christ's sake and call a spade a spade.
Pelosi say's that if you oppose Obama's nefarious plans you must be a nazi and a racist.. well then I guess I am one because this guy is screwing my country up the tail end and I don't like it.


The real truth is that all of the things that you list that really piss you off were created while BARRAK was a baby. He hasn't been in office a year yet give the dude a break jump in his **** next year you don't really have viable sample of his deeds yet.Another thing is there has been a big change in the well fare system the stereotypical well fare moma is a lot harder to find these days.Take a look behind the counter the next time you get a burger Sister is not there because she wants to be.


Don't have a viable sample of his deeds? Palleeeezzz Roll Eyes

Him and his cronies have taken over every industry left in this nation and made themselves flush rich with money that is guaranteed to be paid off via our taxes.. Now they want to take over the insurance industry.. won't surprise me to see them make moves to do the same with auto insurance as so many drive without it.
I also have a feeling in my gut he is going to attempt reparations. He still has 3/4 of a trillion to play with and much more than that as long as he can continue to get the idiots on the hill to sign off on his nefarious schemes as national debt.
How can any sane person support this clown and his administration full of tax cheats, con-men and crooks?

VOTE THEM ALL OUT!!!!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:
quote:
Originally posted by ka-0-hub:
quote:
Originally posted by The Cold Hard Truth:
I am sick of supporting the entitlement crowd period.. except in the circumstance of physical or mental disability.

It's not me or mines problem that we have millions of people who think we owe them something.. generation after generation that live in public housing, draw checks, scam the system for everything they can get including food stamps.. hell I don't have to itemize.. EVERY FREAKING NEED THEY HAVE IN LIFE PROVIDED BY MY TAX DOLLARS!!! and then run me and my country down, all the while never making one, NOT ONE EFFORT to do anything for themselves.
This whole **** deal IS a race issue.. all of it. this Obama guy is "The one we have all been waiting for" alright.. he just never got pressed on who "we" and "all" is.
It isn't me, it isn't the average person who works a 40 hour or more week just to make ends meet while millions of others have EVERYTHING handed to them.
I'm sick of all of it, the lies, the manipulations.. at least be honest for Christ's sake and call a spade a spade.
Pelosi say's that if you oppose Obama's nefarious plans you must be a nazi and a racist.. well then I guess I am one because this guy is screwing my country up the tail end and I don't like it.


The real truth is that all of the things that you list that really piss you off were created while BARRAK was a baby. He hasn't been in office a year yet give the dude a break jump in his **** next year you don't really have viable sample of his deeds yet.Another thing is there has been a big change in the well fare system the stereotypical well fare moma is a lot harder to find these days.Take a look behind the counter the next time you get a burger Sister is not there because she wants to be.


Don't have a viable sample of his deeds? Palleeeezzz Roll Eyes

Him and his cronies have taken over every industry left in this nation and made themselves flush rich with money that is guaranteed to be paid off via our taxes.. Now they want to take over the insurance industry.. won't surprise me to see them make moves to do the same with auto insurance as so many drive without it.
I also have a feeling in my gut he is going to attempt reparations. He still has 3/4 of a trillion to play with and much more than that as long as he can continue to get the idiots on the hill to sign off on his nefarious schemes as national debt.
How can any sane person support this clown and his administration full of tax cheats, con-men and crooks?

VOTE THEM ALL OUT!!!!!!!
yeah,before obama got elected, everything was jake.
One of the things that I don't understand about people today is not looking at the whole picture. Medicare and medicaid, you might say, are on the verge of being broke. You think about how many people in the United States, not counting the children, who are on medicaid that are on medicare. Everybody on medicare is not democrats or socialists. You have a lot of conservatives, republicans, bluedogs, etc. on medicare. I think the problem with welfare, medicare and medicaid is that it needs to be policed more, making sure that the true people that deserve it can get it and the ones that are taking advantage of the system should be taken off the program. I'm sure we have many people on these programs that do not need to be verses many that do.

Now for the people that are paying for their insurance and who are not trying to beat the system but just trying to make a good honest living who like most people want healthcare and security for their family, these people need to be protected too. They need to be protected from an insurance company denying them coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They need to be protected from an insurance company setting limits on their healthcare needs. As it stands right now, nedicare and your private insurance companies have limits, they only pay so much per year and then it kicks in again the next year. Like your dental insurance, for instance, depending on the insurance you have it may pay for two crowns this year but you may have to wait until next year to get the next two.

What people forget is, when President Reagan was elected, he took regulations off of insurance companies, electricity and heating companies, regulations off of oil companies, then you wonder why your gas and oil has gone up so high. I'm all for anyone trying to make money but robbing people blind, there should be a law against it.
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:

Now for the people that are paying for their insurance and who are not trying to beat the system but just trying to make a good honest living who like most people want healthcare and security for their family, these people need to be protected too. They need to be protected from an insurance company denying them coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They need to be protected from an insurance company setting limits on their healthcare needs. As it stands right now, nedicare and your private insurance companies have limits, they only pay so much per year and then it kicks in again the next year. Like your dental insurance, for instance, depending on the insurance you have it may pay for two crowns this year but you may have to wait until next year to get the next two.

What people forget is, when President Reagan was elected, he took regulations off of insurance companies, electricity and heating companies, regulations off of oil companies, then you wonder why your gas and oil has gone up so high. I'm all for anyone trying to make money but robbing people blind, there should be a law against it.


So why don't they just put the regulations back on insurance companies? Why don't they force them to take the existing illnesses? Why don't they just pass laws telling insurance companies what they can and can't do? WHY, it all boils down to POWER, they want the power to control things.
quote:
So why don't they just put the regulations back on insurance companies? Why don't they force them to take the existing illnesses? Why don't they just pass laws telling insurance companies what they can and can't do? WHY, it all boils down to POWER, they want the power to control things.

BRAVO! you hit the REAL solutions ( and problems) right on! This whole entire mess of Obamas healthcare is simply a way for the government to have full power to EVERYONES healthcare,the very core of ones well being and life. What better way to control the people.
The CEO and co-founder of Whole Foods John Mackey wrote an excellent article in the Wall Street Journal concerning logical and common sense changes to the health insurance problem. His views made so much sense the regressive Progressives are going to boycott his stores.

quote:
*

Dow Jones Reprints: This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. To order presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients or customers, use the Order Reprints tool at the bottom of any article or visit www.djreprints.com
See a sample reprint in PDF format. Order a reprint of this article now
* The Wall Street Journal

* OPINION
* AUGUST 12, 2009

The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
By JOHN MACKEY

“The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people’s money.”

—Margaret Thatcher

With a projected $1.8 trillion deficit for 2009, several trillions more in deficits projected over the next decade, and with both Medicare and Social Security entitlement spending about to ratchet up several notches over the next 15 years as Baby Boomers become eligible for both, we are rapidly running out of other people’s money. These deficits are simply not sustainable. They are either going to result in unprecedented new taxes and inflation, or they will bankrupt us.

While we clearly need health-care reform, the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment. Here are eight reforms that would greatly lower the cost of health care for everyone:
http://online.wsj.com/article/...342170072865070.html
quote:
Originally posted by Nobluedog:
One of the things that I don't understand about people today is not looking at the whole picture. Medicare and medicaid, you might say, are on the verge of being broke. You think about how many people in the United States, not counting the children, who are on medicaid that are on medicare. Everybody on medicare is not democrats or socialists. You have a lot of conservatives, republicans, bluedogs, etc. on medicare. I think the problem with welfare, medicare and medicaid is that it needs to be policed more, making sure that the true people that deserve it can get it and the ones that are taking advantage of the system should be taken off the program. I'm sure we have many people on these programs that do not need to be verses many that do.

Now for the people that are paying for their insurance and who are not trying to beat the system but just trying to make a good honest living who like most people want healthcare and security for their family, these people need to be protected too. They need to be protected from an insurance company denying them coverage because of a pre-existing condition. They need to be protected from an insurance company setting limits on their healthcare needs. As it stands right now, nedicare and your private insurance companies have limits, they only pay so much per year and then it kicks in again the next year. Like your dental insurance, for instance, depending on the insurance you have it may pay for two crowns this year but you may have to wait until next year to get the next two.

What people forget is, when President Reagan was elected, he took regulations off of insurance companies, electricity and heating companies, regulations off of oil companies, then you wonder why your gas and oil has gone up so high. I'm all for anyone trying to make money but robbing people blind, there should be a law against it.

OK, JJ, here is the problem with your logic. Medicare and medicaid, which you say are on the verge of being broke, are both GOVERNMENT funded plans. It is no secret that since 2002 Barack Obama has touted a single government payor system. Go back and look at his histroy, it is black and white, and he has said it numerous times. Now there is currently no single plan that is proposed, but of all the ones as of this weekend, they all offer a another government based insurance plan.
NO, and I emphasize NO, insurance company is going to be able to take on a new client IF they have a pre-existing condition such as cancer if they have no previous insurance. It is STUPID (that is the president's word) to think that they can do so. If that were the case, people could sit idly by and wait until they got sick before investing in insurance. The government could however enact a law that would supplement companies that took these people on for major medical expense. Then pass a law that says everyone must purchase some type of insurance or face a tax penalty.
That in and of itself would solve the vast majority of the problems.

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