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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by David titled "Redemptive Suffering" -- our Friend, VP, told us, "On redemptive suffering. I worked hospice/palliative care for a long time. I cannot tell you how often a suffering person (on the brink of death) would proclaim the incredible moment, where they offered and joined their suffering with our Lord. One man, in particular, I will never forget, told me (moments before he died) that he was on the Cross with Jesus, and Jesus was holding his hand. POWERFUL stuff!"

VP, no one can doubt your sincerity, nor the depth of your feelings at that moment when you were with another who was nearing the time he would go into eternity. I have a dear Friend, Harvey, who used to work as a Nursing Supervisor in a hospital -- and has shared with us how he would never fail to slip into the room of comatose patients, to pray for them and their eternal salvation. Harvey had no way of knowing for sure if this person could hear his prayers and his request that he/she invite our Savior in during those last hours -- but, he was doing the ministry God had given him -- and, he could only trust in the Holy Spirit to do the rest.

Yet, there is ONE problem with this man thinking he met Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus is no longer on the cross. Jesus died on the cross to make eternal salvation available to all who, by grace, through faith, will believe and receive this free gift "paid in full" by His precious blood. Then, He rose from the grave and ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) in His gloried, divine body -- where He sits at the right hand of God the Father, continually interceding, continually being the Mediator between man and God, for all Christian believers.

So, if this man truly saw himself with Jesus Christ -- it would not be on the cross -- but, in the presence of God the Father in heaven.

Mark 16:19, "So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God."

Colossians 3:1, "Therefore if you (if this hospice patient) have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."

Hebrews 1:3, "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Hebrews 10:11-12, "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He (Jesus), having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God"

1 Peter 3:21-22, ". . . Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him."

Why, after dying on the cross to defeat Satan -- did He ascend into heaven? Because He had accomplished His work on earth and told us, "It is finished!" (John 19:30). His next gift to us was to rise from the grave, resurrect, to defeat death and to give the gift of immortality to all men -- for believers, immortality in the presence of God; for non-believers, immortality in hell.

He died on the cross ONCE, for all (1 Peter 3:18) -- never to experience the cross again.

"Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25).

Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

What is the promise of Jesus Christ to all believers? That all who believe WILL have eternal life in Christ! (John 6:47)

And, in 1 Timothy 2:5, that HE is our Counsel before God the Father, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:34, "Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

So, recognizing this unfathomable, amazing gift He offers to all people -- what should we be doing?

In Colossians 3:1-2 we are told, "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."

Who did this man see in his final hours? If he saw a dead man, or any man, hanging on the cross; he was not seeing Jesus Christ. But, if he had looked up -- he would have seen Jesus Christ, in heaven, waiting patiently for him to open the door of his heart and invite Him to come in and be his very personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). That is the His greatest desire (1 Peter 3:9) -- that all people will open the door of their hearts and invite Him to come in and be their very best Friend, their most intimate Friend.

VP, this was not intended to dash water upon your good works at the hospice. For such is always blessed by God. But, the best thing you could have done for this man, at that time, was to have prayed that, in his final moments, he would have taken his eyes off earthly things, looked into heaven (as did Stephen who, just before his death declared, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God" - Acts 7:56) -- and reached for the extended hand of the Savior who was waiting to embrace him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill,
You did not understand my post, and I really question your reasons for challenging my beliefs, opinions and experiences.
Now. Did this man join Jesus on the Cross physically? No. Of course not.
It is redemptive, conjoined suffering. Where one unites his/her suffering with that of our Lord Jesus Christ. A spiritual exercise, a form of prayer.
So you say that I did not do the "correct" thing for this man.
Really?
Do you know that I did not pray with/for him?
Do you know anything about spirituality, especially as it pertains to death and dying?
I do.
I don't need your critique about my work in hospice. I have seen more death, suffering and prayer in my years in palliative care than most people in their lifetimes.
I did not say he was "PHYSICALLY" on the cross with Jesus. You should consider spending less time "convinced" that you are doing everything totally right, and consider your hesitancy/refusal to acknowledge/enter into the suffering and death of our Lord.
It's not all puppies and roses. There is anguish and despair. You have to feel the pain to experience the joy.
Please examine your motivation for this critique.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
It is redemptive, conjoined suffering. Where one unites his/her suffering with that of our Lord Jesus Christ. A spiritual exercise, a form of prayer.

Hi VP,

But, my whole point -- was not to criticize you, nor to minimize your compassion and concern for this man. It was to point out that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross; that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER suffering for us.

He came to die, to suffer, ONCE upon the cross -- for all; so that all mankind may be offered the "free gift" of salvation through His precious blood.

Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross -- so, if this man saw Him on the cross; he was not seeing Jesus Christ. And, that should concern all of us.

If you can ever get past your dislike of me -- you should be able to see that this is true, Biblically true.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross -- so, if this man saw Him on the cross; he was not seeing Jesus Christ. And, that should concern all of us.

How do you know Jesus did not give the man a vision of himself on the cross? Did He call you and tell you that?


quote:
You have to feel the pain to experience the joy.
To borrow from Garth Brooks:

I could have missed the pain, but I would have had to miss the DANCE! Amen

And bless you VP.
quote:
Originally posted by House of David:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP, But, my whole point -- was not to criticize you, nor to minimize your compassion and concern for this man. It was to point out that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross; that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER suffering for us.

Actually He is. Our sins grieve Him.

"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."—Ephesians 4:30.

Hi David,

To be specific, Jesus Christ suffered and died on the cross to offer us eternal salvation. He did this ONCE for all; so, He will never again suffer death for us again.

Is He grieved that many people still deny Him? You bet He is.

However, I am happy to see that we agree on Ephesians 4:30 -- that, once we are saved, by grace, though faith -- we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. This means that we HAVE eternal life -- and that we cannot lose that eternal life; for the Holy Spirit has sealed us. And, by this Scripture verse, He has sealed us for or until the day of redemption.

When are we redeemed? When we die and enter heaven -- or when we are Raptured. Until then, we are safe in His promise of eternal life (John 6:47).

I am so happy that agree on this.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
It is redemptive, conjoined suffering. Where one unites his/her suffering with that of our Lord Jesus Christ. A spiritual exercise, a form of prayer.

Hi VP,

But, my whole point -- was not to criticize you, nor to minimize your compassion and concern for this man. It was to point out that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross; that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER suffering for us.

He came to die, to suffer, ONCE upon the cross -- for all; so that all mankind may be offered the "free gift" of salvation through His precious blood.
Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross -- so, if this man saw Him on the cross; he was not seeing Jesus Christ. And, that should concern all of us.
If you can ever get past your dislike of me -- you should be able to see that this is true, Biblically true.


billgray,

Someone could write a book on what you don't
understand because you will never think outside
your small world. People don't write to this
post because they dislike you.

Some write because they understand much more than
you. What the man saw on the cross is no concern
of you, none of your concern at all.

You don't know half of what VP & HoD know about
the real of world Jesus and real world daily
activities.
You all should know by now that Bill would argue with a fence post if he thought it might have been tamped in by a Catholic.


Bill would argue with a fence post no matter the religion if it believed differently than he does.
But it seems he does have a huge problem with V. I wish he would leave her alone. Mad
............................................................

Agree to both.

Bill's inability to handle his own life is what has lead to his hatred of a denomination that he admits he never understood.

In my humble opinion, of course, based on his statements of 'needing' to belong to something.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi David,


However, I am happy to see that we agree on Ephesians 4:30 -- that, once we are saved, by grace, though faith -- we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit. This means that we HAVE eternal life -- and that we cannot lose that eternal life; for the Holy Spirit has sealed us. And, by this Scripture verse, He has sealed us for or until the day of redemption.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Does the Holy Spirit use a silicone sealant or a polyurethane sealant? I want to be sure to have plenty on hand when you bust a leak.
quote:
But it seems he does have a huge problem with V. I wish he would leave her alone.


Nah, Semi- It's a good thing.
The more he lies about our Faith, the more we can show people the true Catholic Church- Bill doesn't understand it. That is abundantly clear.
So, the more he perpetuates myths and lies about it, the more opportunity we have to defend it.
Yeah, it gets frustrating, but I no longer respond for Bill's sake, but to dispel the untruths for the benefit of other readers, and let Christ's love shine for others.
Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Bill would argue with a fence post no matter the religion if it believed differently than he does.
But it seems he does have a huge problem with V. I wish he would leave her alone.

Hi Chick,

Actually, I have no beef with anyone -- only with false teachings and unBiblical doctrines. So, whoever posts these -- I will refute it.

It doesn't matter if it is Sam the Plumber, VP, or you, Chick. I don't refute people; I refute false, unBiblical teachings.

If that offends you, then, I am sorry. But, I would rather offend you -- than to offend my God by not refuting these teachings.

So, that, basically, is where I stand.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
It is redemptive, conjoined suffering. Where one unites his/her suffering with that of our Lord Jesus Christ. A spiritual exercise, a form of prayer.

Hi VP,
But, my whole point -- was not to criticize you, nor to minimize your compassion and concern for this man. It was to point out that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross; that Jesus Christ is NO LONGER suffering for us.
He came to die, to suffer, ONCE upon the cross -- for all; so that all mankind may be offered the "free gift" of salvation through His precious blood.
Jesus Christ is NO LONGER on the cross -- so, if this man saw Him on the cross; he was not seeing Jesus Christ. And, that should concern all of us.
If you can ever get past your dislike of me -- you should be able to see that this is true, Biblically true.



gillbray,

After all they said you still don't get it. Some people want to suffer for
Jesus, for all the pain they gave him in their life. They offer it up for
their sin's against God. It's not expected of you because your ignorant
of the ways and teachings of Jesus. You can't tell Jesus of your sorrow for
having offended him,I don't think it's in you.

You've done your job so where is my free ticket? Show me in the Bible where
you can't love Jesus, show me where you can't do an act of sorrow for God.

Your whole point IS to criticize, IS to minimize, for you have no compassion
because you know they know where Jesus just happens to be right now.

There is no dislike for you, It's your dislike for catholic that's real and
in play, you just can't get around that fact.

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