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Should A Born Again Christian Leave The Roman Catholic Church?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by Beter titled "Without Comment -- Theology Of Billy Graham" -- Beter asks me the question, "You, Bill, contend that Catholics, in their reliance on sacramentalism, embrace a 'works salvation.' If that is true, then how can you reconcile Graham's congeniality with Catholicism with your concept of 'salvation by grace through faith'? Can a Catholic be 'born again' and 'saved by faith only' if he/she continues to rely on the sacramental demands of Catholicism, without which no one can logically claim to be a faithful Catholic?"

Yes, a Roman Catholic can be a born again Christian (John 3:3) and be saved -- by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- and remain in the Roman Catholic church. However, the question becomes, how long with that Roman Catholic who has become a born again believer stay in the Roman Catholic church?

In the past, I have answered this question by saying that, once a Roman Catholic is born again many of the doctrines of that church will eventually begin to chafe -- until eventually that person will leave Roman Catholicism. I have suggested that this will happen in about a year; maybe more, maybe less.

When Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, who was Director of Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries in the Philippines for ten years and then left Roman Catholicism and became a Protestant minister, came to our church to speak -- I asked him this same question. His answer was, "I stayed in the Roman Catholic church for three hours."

Anthony Pezzotta was born in Italy, raised in a Roman Catholic family, spent 15 years in Roman Catholic seminaries, earning advanced degrees at seminaries in Italy, England, Spain, and Germany. For ten years he was Director of Schools and Seminaries and Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines. Yet, after much personal study of Scripture and talks with Rev. Ernesto Montealegre, a Filipino Baptist pastor -- Tony left Roman Catholicism, attended a Protestant Seminary -- and then taught at the Asian Theological Seminary in Quezon City, Philippines. Since 2001, Dr. Pezzotta has been Director of Ethnic Ministries with the Conservative Baptist Association of Southern California.

On of Dr. Pezzotta's writings is a tract titled: "Should I Leave My Church? - An Answer From God's Word To A Practical Question"

The following is the text of this tract:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

QUESTION:

I am a Roman Catholic, but recently in a home Bible study I received Christ as my Lord and Saviour, and I know now that I am a born-again person, a child of God; I know that I have eternal life. Soon I hope to follow Jesus in the witness of baptism. Do you think I can stay in the Roman Catholic Church, or do you advise me to leave it? Is it necessary or important for me to join an Evangelical church?

ANSWER:

Your question is a very relevant one. All Catholics who, by the grace of God trust Christ as their Saviour and Lord, sooner or later face this problem. I have often heard people say that it does not matter what church one joins. In part they are right, for it really does not matter what church one attends IF ONE IS NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, that is NOT A BORN AGAIN PERSON. BUT FOR ONE WHO IS A GENUINE BELIEVER, IT DOES MATTER VERY MUCH.

Let me give my straight answer, which I will try to prove. In my mind there is no doubt that a true Christian WILL eventually LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. So, it is not a question of WHETHER one should leave, but rather of WHEN one should leave. Let me tell you why from the Biblical viewpoint and from the Catholic viewpoint too.

A: A CATHOLIC WHO RECEIVES CHRIST AS SAVIOUR AND LORD WILL LEAVE HIS CHURCH BECAUSE...

1. As a believer he has Christ as Lord, which means he does what Christ says in His Word. If his church happens to have doctrines and laws against God's Word, the believer cannot abide by them; he must obey the Word of his Lord and Master. Now we know that the church of Rome has several major doctrines and laws which are unbiblical, yet they are binding in conscience (under pain of sin, and if dogmas, even of excommunication) according to the teachings of that church.

2. The Word of God teaches that believers have one or more spiritual gifts (Ephesians 4:7-13; 1 Corinthians 12:1-31), and that these gifts, as such, do not make us better Christians, but rather their purpose is to equip us for the building up of the body of Christ. They are for service. The context in these passages demands, from the very nature of such gifts, that the Apostle Paul is dealing with the visible manifestation of Christ's body that is the local church.

Now, which church is the believer supposed to serve? In which church is he supposed to exercise his gift? If I work in and for a church that mixes error with truth, I am directly responsible for the spreading of error too. Even if I do not preach what is against God's Word, but do it in and for an institution which does so, I am upholding the institution as a whole.

Let me give you an example. We all know that Communism as such is atheistic materialism. Yet Communism has many good social aspects that are in keeping with Gospel truth. Do you think a Christian could be an active communist in view of such good social aspects? Absolutely not. If he votes for Communism and actively works for it, he contributes to the spreading of Communism for what it is: "atheistic materialism," and not only for its partly acceptable social program.

In the same way a true believer who works in and for the Roman Catholic church, directly contributes to the growth and spreading of an institution which preaches not only the Triune God, Jesus Christ, heaven, hell, love, prayer, social justice, etc., but also:

a. the Pope as the infallible successor of Peter and Vicar of Christ on earth, temporal sovereign of a state and visible head of the church;

b. faith as mere intellectual assent, rather than trust in the person of Christ;

c. salvation as communicated through sacraments and kept through good works, rather than the gift of God through faith in Christ Jesus;

d. priesthood as the privilege of a few men endowed with the supernatural power of offering sacrifice and forgiving sins, rather than the priesthood of Christ in which all believers, men as well as women, have an equal share;

e. a church that allows and encourages praying to Mary and saints and making images and statues;

f. a church, in conclusion, which openly defies the clear teaching of Scripture in many areas.

A believer who stays and works in the Catholic church contributes to the building up of that church for what it stands.

3. The Catholic who becomes a true believer can find local churches which accept the Lordship of Christ and the authority of His Word. Such churches surely fall short of perfection in the lives of believers, as also Roman Catholics do, but they will not justify open disobedience to God's Word on the basis of the authority of the church. These Christian churches, or Evangelical churches as they are frequently called, abide by God's Word in principle, and try their best to do so in practice too.

B: A CATHOLIC WHO RECEIVES CHRIST AS SAVIOUR AND LORD WILL LEAVE HIS CHURCH BECAUSE HE IS NO LONGER A ROMAN CATHOLIC.

1. If you believe that you are saved because of your faith in Christ, and accept His Word as final authority, you are not a Roman Catholic, but a Protestant, even if you do not like the word Protestant. Salvation by faith and the sole authority of Scripture are the very foundation of Protestantism, as against salvation by works and sacraments, and the authority of tradition or Catholicism.

2. Many Catholics wrongly think that they can reject official dogmas of their church and yet be Catholics. Their church declares them ipso facto excommunicated (automatically cut off from the Catholic Church and the Body of Christ). This makes them heretics in the eyes of their church. So, for instance, if you do not believe in your heart that the Pope is infallible, that Mary was sinless from conception, that the mass is a true sacrifice, that there is a purgatory, or if you reject any of the seven sacraments as taught by the church, etc., you are no longer a Roman Catholic in the eyes of your church. The text of official definitions of the Pope always ends with the expression: "And if any one dare to believe the contrary, let him be anathema (****ed and excommunicated)."

3. If, finally, you obey the command of Jesus of being baptized after you truly believe in Him, as you rightly say in your question, then you automatically incur another excommunication, for the church of Rome dogmatically teaches that you become a child of God at your infant baptism, and that baptism can never be repeated.

In conclusion I would like to share with you how, many Catholics simply have a sentimental attachment to their church, which they were trained to call "Our Mother the Church." This common expression and feeling points to the fact that they believe they owe their spiritual life to the church, which made them Christians through baptism, and keeps them spiritually alive through the other sacraments. Biblically, it is not the church that makes us, be we believers make up the church. But since it is by grace through faith that we become living stones of this church, Christ is the true builder.

I believe I gave you several objective reasons, from both the Biblical and the Catholic viewpoint, which show that you no longer belong to the Roman Catholic church. For this reason, I started by saying that for a believer it is not a question of WHETHER, but of WHEN. There may be legitimate reasons at times to delay for a while, as in the case of baptism, too. But it should never be for a long time, for you need a local Christian fellowship for your growth in Christ, in the knowledge of His Word, and for the exercise of your spiritual gifts.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Beter, I pray that I have answered your question sufficiently and that this information will prove helpful to all of our Religion Forum Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
quote:
In my mind there is no doubt that a true Christian WILL eventually LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. So, it is not a question of WHETHER one should leave, but rather of WHEN one should leave. Let me tell you why from the Biblical viewpoint and from the Catholic viewpoint too.


BS, BG. I call inflammatory post and foul!
You have a lot of nerve. I should not be surprised, but you are a very mean spirited man. You better hope and trust in His mercy, because this is straight up hate-mail.
Why don't you look at the millions of devout Christian Catholics for your answers, rather than ONE outspoken disgruntled one?

I will pray for you, because you are not doing God's work with nonsense and inflammatory posts such as this. And I can assure you beyond any doubt that you can find a Catholic Apologist to refute every point your "witness" makes. I just do not have the time nor the energy for you right now. But, as a CONVERT to the Catholic church, rest assured I will never leave, EVER. I will always hunger for the Eucharist, and the Church, of which St. Peter was and IS the First Pope.
And I can personally attest to many, many MANY devout Christian Catholics who take great offense to these remarks.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

Dr. Pezzotta is far from being a disgruntled ex-Roman Catholic. He was a very educated Roman Catholic -- Dean of the Roman Catholic Seminaries in the Philippines for ten years. For ten years, he taught theology and Catholicism to your priests.

So, if anyone knows Roman Catholicism -- it would be Dr. Pezzotta. Is it hate-mail? Far from it. Tony loves the people in the Roman Catholic church; most of his family are still in the Roman Catholic church. But, Tony found the truth and he shares it with those who want to know the truth.

Those who don't -- just fume and call him name, saying that his writings are hate-mail.

He was Roman Catholic long before you were born and, very likely, spent more years in the Roman Catholic church, than you have lived. I trust Dr. Pezzotta's judgment, his knowledge, and his motives. What are his motives? Love for all people -- especially those still in Roman Catholicism.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
"most of his family are still in the Roman Catholic church. But, Tony found the truth"


The truth is Jesus, Bill, as in "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."

It is not yours or your buddy Tony's interpretation of the truth.
Catholics are Christians. Christians are Catholics. Catholics may be just as "right" as you are. Who knows? But you are mighty brazen to suggest that Catholics should/will leave their church in seek of "the truth". Not sure God is smiling on you today....cue the stupid cartoon...
Maybe one day, you'll convert to Catholicism and participate in the Holy Mass and Eucharist. Until then, why don't you keep your anti-Catholic sentiment to your self? I know the Truth, as do most of the people on this forum. We (Catholics) already "know" Jesus- go work on someone who doesnt.
ps- I have reported your post, as it is offensive. I sincerely hope the TD pulls it. But, if not, I will vehemently oppose your hatemail as long as you spew it.
PA prince albertHall of Famer
quote:
always hunger for the Eucharist, and the Church, of which St. Peter was and IS the First Pope.
And I can personally attest to many, many MANY devout Christian Catholics who take great offense to these remark


Matt 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter’s house, he saw his wife’s mother lying sick of a fever.

How could Peter have been the first Pope? he had a Wife and a mother in law. or did they have Wives back then? I probably know the answer to that,"it says so in the Catholic Bible and the Fundamentalist Bible is Wrong". Right?
FM Former Member
Yes, Simon Peter was married. His wife, I understand died as a martyr.
I know of late vocation (widowers) Priests who enter their vocation after having been married and had children.
What's the conflict? Priesthood calls for celibacy, not virginity. There have been several Popes that were married prior to ordination. Of course, in ANY sect, there are also those who were scandalously sexually active.


Here is an interesting history of St. Peter:

"It is said that the apostle Peter was a slender person, of a middle size, inclining to tallness, and that his complexion was pale, almost white. It is also said that he had a short, thick, curled beard, thin eyebrows, or no eyebrows at all. Peter's eyes were

black, but flecked with red due to frequent weeping.

Born at Betsaida in Galilee to a fisherman by the name of Jona, Peter would eventually follow his father into this profession. He, and his brother Andrew, became partners with Zebedee and his sons James and John in a fishing business. All four, Peter, Andrew, James, and John, were to become disciples of Jesus; later to be appointed as apostles by Him. So firm was Peter's faith that Jesus gave him the name of Cephas, meaning, in the Syriac language, a rock. Peter is the Greek translation of Cephas.

The house in which Peter lived in, in Capernaum, is still standing; in the 5th century AD, however, a Christian church was constructed over it.

It was Peter who preached to the masses in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost following the Lord's ascension to heaven, and it is his message which is recorded in the New Testament of the Bible, the book of Acts, chapter 2. In fact, much is written about the apostle Peter in the first 12 chapters of the book of Acts in the New Testament.

Peter is, also, the one who prompted the disciples to choose a replacement to take over the apostolic ministry of Judas Iscariot (after his betrayal and death); and it was Peter who healed a man over 40 years of age who had been crippled from birth with but the words, "Silver and Gold I do not have, but what I have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."

Peter was called by the apostle Paul a "pillar" of the church, and it was believed by the crowds that the mere casting of his shadow upon the sick was capable of bringing about miraculous healing. Peter is, also, the one who defended the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Christian movement at the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem. His ministry was primarily to the Jews, as Paul's was to the Gentiles.

After being imprisoned several times in Jerusalem because of his faith, Peter left with his wife and possibly others. It is believed that he ministered in Babylon to the Jewish colonists there, and it is also believed to be his location when he wrote his first epistle (1 Peter).

Peter eventually went to Rome, and while there it is believed that Mark (the writer of the Gospel of Mark) served as his translator as he preached. It is, also, believed that as Peter told and retold his experiences with Jesus, Mark interpreted time and time again to Christian groups, and by so doing gave Mark an almost verbatim memory of Peter's recollections. After Peter's death, Mark, realizing the value of Peter's first hand account, recorded what he remembered so clearly in what we know as the Gospel of Mark. In this manner, Peter became the source of our earliest Gospel.

According to church tradition, the Roman Emperor Nero, publicly announcing himself the chief enemy of God, was led in his fury to slaughter the Apostles. Because of the persecution, Peter was crucified upside down while in Rome. Concerning the last hours of his life, it is said that when Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, "O thou, remember the Lord."

Of the final days of the apostle Peter in Rome, Jowett wrote that Peter was cast into a horrible prison called the Mamertine and for nine months, in absolute darkness, he endured monstrous torture manacled to a post. In spite of all the suffering Peter was subjected to, he converted his jailers, Processus, Martinianus, and forty-seven others. Peter met his death at the hand of the Romans in Nero's circus, 67AD."
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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Yes, Simon Peter was married. His wife, I understand died as a martyr.
I know of late vocation (widowers) Priests who enter their vocation after having been married and had children.

What's the conflict? Priesthood calls for celibacy, not virginity. There have been several Popes that were married prior to ordination. Of course, in ANY sect, there are also those who were scandalously sexually active.

Here is an interesting history of St. Peter:

"It is said that the apostle Peter was a slender person, of a middle size, inclining to tallness, and that his complexion was pale, almost white. It is also said that he had a short, thick, curled beard, thin eyebrows, or no eyebrows at all. Peter's eyes were black, but flecked with red due to frequent weeping.
"

Hi VP,

We have no record of how or when Peter's wife died. And, I am curious where you got this description of Peter. You describe Peter as almost effeminate; yet, although the Bible does not give a physical description -- it does tell us that Peter was a man who made his living as a fisherman, which was a rugged, hard life; and it tells us that Peter was a man who, when he saw the resurrected Jesus on the beach, threw off his robe, jumped into the water, and swam ashore.

That does not sound like an effeminate man to me. Where did you get your quote? You gave no reference or source.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

In my earlier post, I wrote, "So, if anyone knows Roman Catholicism -- it would be Dr. Pezzotta. Is it hate-mail? Far from it. Tony loves the people in the Roman Catholic church; most of his family are still in the Roman Catholic church. But, Tony found the truth and he shares it with those who want to know the truth."

And, you respond, "The truth is Jesus, Bill, as in "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." It is not yours or your buddy Tony's interpretation of the truth."

That is very true. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). And, you are right that it is not my interpretation, nor is it Tony Pezzotta's interpretation -- it is what the Bible teaches us. Amen to that!

Then, you say, "Catholics are Christians. Christians are Catholics."

Some Roman Catholics are Christians; just as some Protestants are Christians. That is a fact. And, yes, if we are using the meaning of catholic which means "universal" -- then Christians are catholic; we all are a part of the catholic or "universal" body of Christ. With that I agree.

Next, you tell me, "Catholics may be just as 'right' as you are. Who knows?"

Well, those Roman Catholics who acknowledge that the sole authority for the Word of God -- is the Bible; yes, they are right.

However, if you are saying that those who teach the dogmas of Roman Catholicism which say that: (1) Roman Catholic traditions trump the Bible in authority, or (2) the Pope is infallible and the sole voice for God on earth, or (3) that people should look upon Mary as the mother of God and pray to her and to other dead saints, or (4) that people are saved only through the Roman Catholic church, or (5) that a priest has magical mystical powers which can turn a piece of bread into human flesh and grape juice or wine into human blood -- and other such non-Biblical doctrines; then, I would have to say that the Roman Catholics are not right.

God has given us, in the Bible, His full revelation, everything we need to gain salvation and to guide our Christian walk in this life. We do not need Pharisee type Traditions and Laws to sit on top of the Bible as our guidance. The Bible is complete for all we need.

You tell me, "But you are mighty brazen to suggest that Catholics should/will leave their church in seek of "the truth." Not sure God is smiling on you today....cue the stupid cartoon..."

No, I did not say that; I quoted Dr. Anthony Pezzotta; a man with many advanced degrees from Roman Catholic seminaries in four different countries; a man who was Director of Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries in the Philippines for TEN years, teaching other priests; a man who, when he began his own personal study of God's Word, the Bible, found he could no longer believe what he had been teaching all those ten years, that he could no longer believe what he has studied for fifteen years in Roman Catholic Seminaries -- and, a man who found that, to find the real Truth -- he had to leave Roman Catholicism. He is much more qualified to address this subject than me, or even you.

And, you tell me, "Maybe one day, you'll convert to Catholicism and participate in the Holy Mass and Eucharist. Until then, why don't you keep your anti-Catholic sentiment to your self? I know the Truth, as do most of the people on this forum. We (Catholics) already 'know' Jesus -- go work on someone who doesn't."

First, no, I will never convert to Roman Catholicism. I spent twenty years attending the Roman Catholic church, I took Catechism classes several time. Heck, I even coached the basketball team at a Roman Catholic church in Norfolk, Virginia, for one year. Yes, I have been exposed to the Roman Catholic church and, at one time, it had great appeal to me. Why? Because of its size and mysticism, the Latin mass, the Missal, the Rosary, etc. -- it was like a great, overpowering, protective mother. And, since I wasn't a Christian believer and was only looking for a big, motherly post to lean against; it appealed to me. But, in later years, I found the Truth in a Baptist church and became a Christian believer. No, I could never go back to that.

Am I trying to slam Roman Catholics? No, as you will see if you will go back and read the very first sentence in my post which began this discussion; I was only responding to an accusation from Beter. In the discussion begun by Beter titled "Without Comment -- Theology Of Billy Graham" -- Beter is accusing Billy Graham of being too cuddly with Roman Catholics. In that discussion I explained how Billy Graham, from his first Crusade in Los Angeles in 1949, has always included the Roman Catholic churches in his Crusade preparation and in the Crusades themselves.

This drew the ire of many Protestants back then; and it drew the ire of Beter in our discussions. In the previous discussion, I explained why Billy Graham did this -- and the type of ecumenism he teaches -- which is the type of ecumenism I support also. Beter was trying to equate the ecumenism Billy Graham teaches to the World Religions Ecumenism promoted in organizations such as the World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches -- that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, etc. -- all the world religions -- should worship together; which can never happen. They worship gods -- and we worship God. The two cannot mix.

The ecumenism which Billy Graham teaches and which I support -- is one that would bring all Christian churches, all denominations of Christians, together in common worship. That level of ecumenism I support, for that is type of church which began on the Day of Pentecost in 33/34 AD. Since then, we have split into Roman Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodists, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Lutheran -- and many more. Christian ecumenism suggests we should lay aside all these dogmas, traditions, rituals, etc., which separate us and get back to the core of Christianity: The worship of Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.

This discussion was begun as an answer to Beter's accusation and not to slam Roman Catholics. I used the writing of Dr. Anthony Pezzotta because he is much more qualified than me to speak to and for Roman Catholics.

Finally, you tell me, "ps- I have reported your post, as it is offensive. I sincerely hope the TD pulls it. But, if not, I will vehemently oppose your hatemail as long as you spew it."

So, because I do not agree with many of your Roman Catholic dogmas and teachings; I am writing hate mail, right? If you will go back and read our dialogues -- everything I have written has been in response to you pushing your Roman Catholic doctrines on the Religion Forum.

When you insist upon telling us that in the Eucharist, the bread and grape juice -- magically, when in the hands of the priest -- become the ACTUAL human flesh and human blood of Jesus Christ; I have to refute this teaching.

When you push other Roman Catholic doctrines which I know to be unBiblical on the Religion Forum; I have to refute you.

As I said, if you will go back and examine our dialogues -- every single comment I have written has been to refute a Roman Catholic teaching that YOU brought to the Religion Forum. If you did not want dissenting comments; you should not have raised the issue.

If you run your flag up the flag pole; don't complain if those on the other team shoot holes in it.

VP, you are not my enemy. And, if you are a born again Christian believer -- then, we are brothers in Christ. In that case, the only difference between us would be that I KNOW that I have eternal salvation locked, I have the promise of Jesus Christ on this (John 6:47) -- and you insist that YOU will not know until you die.

Let's have good dialogues; discussions which can help us grow in our knowledge of God's Written Word, the Bible -- and discussions which will benefit those who read the Religion Forum.

Let's agree to sometimes disagree -- but, never allow this to divide us. If you are a Christian believer -- we are on the same team.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Infomercial:

The term "born again Christian" is redundant.

Hi Info,

Possibly, but, it is more definitive. Go on the streets and ask folks if they are a Christian -- and the vast majority (even those who have not been in a church in twenty years) will say, "Yes."

Most of my life, if asked that question, I would say yes. But, until I was fifty years old; I was far from being a Christian believer.

Why did I respond this way? Because, even at that time, when I was not really a Christian -- I did believe in God and I believed in Jesus Christ. I believed in them intellectually -- but, not spiritually. I had no doubt they existed; but, I had no relationship with them.

And, what the hey, I was born and grew up in Alabama -- the buckle of the Bible Belt. I attended the Nazarene, the Baptist, and the Methodist churches in Sheffield as a youngster. So, I had all the qualifications of a Christian: I knew God existed, I was born and raised in the Bible Belt, I attended different churches as a teenager. So, I must have been a Christian -- right? WRONG!

Some years ago, I wrote a Christian tract on this subject. A pastor friend felt that we should not ask folks we just met if they are born-again Christians; he said they may not understand what this means.

And, my feeling was and is, if I ask someone if they are a born-again Christian -- and they do not understand what that means; odds are -- they are not. And, by explaining what it means to be born-again is a good segue into witnessing to him/her.

I titled the tract "To Be BORN AGAIN or Not To Be BORN AGAIN, That Is The Question!"

So, while the phrase may appear to you to be redundant; their is a good reason to use it. It just may open the door of salvation for someone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
quote:
everything I have written has been in response to you pushing your Roman Catholic doctrines on the Religion Forum.


No. I have not been "pushing" doctrines. I have solidly defended my faith to the best of my ability.
And by quoting Tony, you are endorsing what he says, so you are adopting it as your own, when you sign your name to it.
St Peter was not effeminate- not sure where you derive this, but he was a married man, a rugged fisherman. And now, is a Saint in Heaven.
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FM Former Member
quote:
And, since I wasn't a Christian believer and was only looking for a big, motherly post to lean against; it appealed to me. But, in later years, I found the Truth in a Baptist church and became a Christian believer


Read what you wrote. You were not a Christian believer during the time (20 years???)you spent in the Catholic Church. Gee. I wonder why you didn't get much out of it. What were you doing there? You obviously were not at a spiritual readiness or maturity to participate in the Mass, if you were not even a Christian believer. Give me a break.......
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP and B50M,

In my earlier post, I wrote, "First, no, I will never convert to Roman Catholicism. I spent twenty years attending the Roman Catholic church, I took Catechism classes several time. Heck, I even coached the basketball team at a Roman Catholic church in Norfolk, Virginia, for one year. Yes, I have been exposed to the Roman Catholic church and, at one time, it had great appeal to me. Why? Because of its size and mysticism, the Latin mass, the Missal, the Rosary, etc. -- it was like a great, overpowering, protective mother. And, since I wasn't a Christian believer and was only looking for a big, motherly post to lean against; it appealed to me. But, in later years, I found the Truth in a Baptist church and became a Christian believer. No, I could never go back to that."

And, VP, you responded with, "Read what you wrote. You were not a Christian believer during the time (20 years???) you spent in the Catholic Church. Gee. I wonder why you didn't get much out of it. What were you doing there? You obviously were not at a spiritual readiness or maturity to participate in the Mass, if you were not even a Christian believer. Give me a break."

True, I attended the Roman Catholic church for twenty years, without becoming a Christian believer. Why? In that twenty years, no one ever mentioned the Gospel to me or told me that I needed to be saved. They were too busy reading from the Missal and sacrificing Jesus Christ every week at the mass -- to bother telling anyone about salvation. There were NO Bible studies, NO Sunday School classes -- only Catechism classes taught from commentaries written by Roman Catholic theologians. And, most of them, like Dr. Pezzotta, had no idea that we walk by faith. Once Dr. Pezzotta found this truth through his own personal Bible studies -- he felt guilty teaching the Roman Catholic dogma -- and left the Roman Catholic church.

In all those years of attending the Roman Catholic church; I do not remember ever seeing anyone bringing a Bible to church; only their Missals and Rosaries.

Why did I attend for twenty years without being a Christian believer? Well, as the Bible teaches in Psalm 42:2, my soul thirsted for God -- even when I did not know it. The book "Eternity In Their Hearts" by Don Richardson, published by Regal Books, tells of many missionaries, in the 18th and 19th centuries, who traveled to remote islands and countries, deep into the jungles of Burma, and many other places where the tribesmen had never seen a white man nor heard of God. Yet, over and over, the missionaries were greeted as those who come to bring the "book" which their ancestors had long told them about. The missionaries, expecting to find hostile native tribes -- instead found themselves being welcomed as the "white brother who brings the book." In the jungles of Burma, the people were waiting for the secrets of Y'Wa -- from legends passed down from ancestors.

So, you see, we all are created with a God Hole within us -- which is empty until we have God within us to fill that empty hole that only He can fill. Yes, I was in the Roman Catholic church for twenty years -- searching for, but, never finding God.

And, by the same token, we can find many, many people in both the Protestant churches and in the Roman Catholic churches who are not Christian believers. In both the Protestant and in the Roman Catholic churches, I fault the pastors, priests, and teachers who do not teach the full Gospel of Jesus Christ; who do not teach that we are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else. I fault those who do not teach that we walk by faith.

In Protestant churches, too many are "Feel Good" churches which only teach what people want to hear. God forbid they should teach about heaven, hell, and the need to repent, turn from the world and turn to follow Jesus Christ. No, that might make some people uncomfortable -- and those who are uncomfortable might not come back next week and their offerings would be lost. So, these churches trade the full Gospel for material wealth. These are often called "Feel Good" churches -- and they hold hands with the "Prosperity Theology" or "Name It And Claim It" Theology churches. Those churches are more concerned about offerings than about saving eternal souls.

And, in Roman Catholic churches, the priests are too busy sacrificing Jesus Christ, reading man-written Missals and Masses, too busy teaching the church-created Catechism -- and never teaching the full Gospel, the truth that we are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- and not through the church, church attendance, nor the sacraments. The Roman Catholic church is too busy teaching the church-created theology -- instead of teaching the truth of the Written Word of God, the Bible.

So, VP, when you come on the Religion Forum expecting us to believe that the wafer of unleavened bread and the cup of grape juice or wine -- actually become the human flesh and human blood of Jesus Christ when held in the magical hands of a priest; when you come on the Religion Forum telling us that Mary is the Mother of God; these things we have to refute.

The following is from a Roman Catholic web site: http://www.hsof.net/newsletter...ept2002/article3.htm

How great is Mother Mary! She was able to say that God did “great things for her”, (Luke 1:49) and that “henceforth all ages will call me blessed.” (Luke 1.48) – a great prophecy, well and truly fulfilled to this day. But her greatness consisted in what God did for her and through her. She was chosen to be the Mother of Jesus, of our Saviour, of God. Alleluia!

Mary was the earthly mother of the human Jesus Christ. Mary was not and is not the Mother of God. God has no mother; God is eternal; God is preexisting which means that He was not created, that He has no mother -- HE IS GOD!

And, then, our Friend, B50M, jumps into the discussion with, "Another fine example of Bill bashing the Catholic faith even though he claims he does not. As for your Dr. Pezzotta, that was covered many months ago. You are his only supporter. He waited 20 years after he left the Catholic church to bash it. No wonder you and him agree."

No, VP and B50M, disagreeing with your Roman Catholic teaching is not Catholic Bashing. When either of you come on the Religion Forum telling us your Roman Catholic beliefs and dogma, your unBiblical doctrines -- I will refute them, not in a negative way -- but, from the Bible and with the Truth of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I have great respect for Dr. Anthony Pezzotta and for any person who, when he/she discovers the Truth of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else; has the strength to walk away from centuries of false teachings and come into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

B50M, you say, "As for your Dr. Pezzotta,. . .. He waited 20 years after he left the Catholic church to bash it."

First, I can honestly say that you will NEVER hear Tony Pezzotta bashing the Roman Catholic church nor any Roman Catholics. He has a lot of family still in the Roman Catholic church and he has a deep love for all people who are still in Roman Catholicism. He would never bash them; but, he will share the truth with them; a truth he found in 1974 and which he desires, with all his heart, to share with others.

The tract which Dr. Pezzotta wrote, "Should I Leave My Church, An Answer From God's Word To A Practical Question," and which I quoted in my earlier post was written shortly after he left Catholicism. After leaving the Roman Catholic church, he was teaching at the Asian Theological Seminary in Quezon City, Philippines, when he wrote this tract.

In 1996, he published his book "Truth Encounters, A Bible Study For Catholics" -- and I highly recommend this book to everyone. It can be purchased for $9 plus shipping by contacting Conservative Baptist Southern California, PO Box 2279, Montclair, CA 91763-0779 -- by Phone: 909.482.0728 -- or by contacting CB Ministries at cbministries@cbasc.com

There is another great book I will recommend to both of you and to all of our Forum Friends. The book is "Far From Rome, Near To God" and it is the testimony of fifty Roman Catholic priests who left Catholicism and became active in Protestant ministry. A pastor Friend gave me a copy of the original manuscript about twenty years ago -- and this is when I first became acquainted with Dr. Anthony Pezzotta. I was impressed because he was an Italian born Roman Catholic, educated in Roman Catholic Seminaries in four countries -- and spent ten years as the Director of Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries in the Philippines. So, a couple of years ago, when I finally had an opportunity to meet him in person, I was not disappointed. He is a man of God who now is free to teach the full Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Today the book "Far From Rome, Near To God, The Testimony Of Fifty Converted Catholic Priests" is now published and you can find it at your local Christian book store -- or have them order it for you. It is edited by Richard Bennett and Martin Buckingham and published by The Banner Of Truth Trust.

My Friends, we come on the Religion Forum to share the Truth of Jesus Christ. I will share my understanding of what the Bible teaches. You are free to share your Roman Catholic Catechism teachings. But, where those differ from the teachings of the Bible, I will refute your teachings. We can do this in civil dialogue without any bashing or name calling from either side -- and, in so doing, we can all grow in our knowledge of Jesus Christ, the Gospel, and the Written Word of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
True, I attended the Roman Catholic church for twenty years, without becoming a Christian believer. Why? In that twenty years, no one ever mentioned the Gospel to me or told me that I needed to be saved. They were too busy reading from the Missal and sacrificing Jesus Christ every week at the mass


Oh, the lies, Mr. Gray. The ENTIRE Catholic Mass is centered around the Word of God. How you can say you spent 20 years in Catholic Church and never heard of Jesus or salvation is absolutely the most ridiculous load of BS I've ever heard. Were you sleeping?
First Reading- Old Testament
Response- Thanks be to God
Second Reading- New Testament
Response-Thanks be to God
GOSPEL OF THE LORD ACCORDING TO....(insert St. name)
Response- Praise to You,Lord Jesus Christ.
The entire Mass is the Word, Bill. You are spewing lies, and as promised, I will refute them. The Eucharistic Prayers, the Words of the Last Supper, ALL words of our Lord.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that, with the exception of the homily, the ENTIRE MASS IS SCRIPTURE.


Then you give a quote a Catholic source, to state the Catholic beliefs re: Mary:
"How great is Mother Mary! She was able to say that God did “great things for her”, (Luke 1:49) and that “henceforth all ages will call me blessed.” (Luke 1.48) – a great prophecy, well and truly fulfilled to this day. But her greatness consisted in what God did for her and through her. She was chosen to be the Mother of Jesus, of our Saviour, of God. Alleluia! "

Your response to this is:
"Mary was the earthly mother of the human Jesus Christ. Mary was not and is not the Mother of God. God has no mother; God is eternal; God is preexisting which means that He was not created, that He has no mother -- HE IS GOD"

And my response, is ALLELUIA, indeed! Thank you for sharing that with us.
Because Mary is the Mother of Jesus. God the Father and Jesus (and the Holy Spirit) are One. Do you refute the scripture in which Jesus says He and God are one??? Do you refute that Jesus is God? Jesus is Lord. How many Lords or Gods are there? ONE: The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. He did not cease to be God, even in the womb of Mary. Therefore, Mary is, indeed Holy Mary, Mother of God.
Here is a rather simple explanation, from a Catholic Apologist:
"It will be discovered that so called Christians who think they believe in the Divinity of Christ but do not believe in Mary as the Mother of God fall generally into four ancient heresies. They are Adoptionists, who believe that Christ was a mere man but after birth was adopted by God as His Son. Or they are Nestorians, who held that Mary gave birth to a man who had a close union with Divinity. Or they are Eutychians, who decided the human nature of Christ and hence made Mary merely, an instrument in a theophany. Or they are Docetists, holding that Christ's nature was only a phantom or an appearance. Those who are offended at reverence paid Mary, if they will analyze their thoughts, will discover that they are holding a Docetist or some similar ancient error. Even if they profess the Divinity of Christ in His earthly existence, such people shrink from affirming that His human nature is glorified with Him at the right hand of the Father, where He makes intercession for us. As some no longer think Christ as God, so some no longer think of Christ as a glorified Man. If He is no longer Man, the relation of Mary to Him extends beyond Bethlehem and Calvary even to His Mystical Body the Church. No one, therefore, who thinks logically about Christ can understand such a question as: 'Why do you speak so often of His Mother?' "

Mary is, and always will be the Mother of God. Forever and ever, Amen. If you dispute this fact, you are disputing that Jesus and God the Father are One.
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FM Former Member
quote:
They were too busy reading from the Missal and sacrificing Jesus Christ every week at the mass




No, Jesus is an Ever-Living Sacrifice, Bill.
And we participate in the Eucharist per HIS command. We don't re-sacrifice Him.
"DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME!"

Do you think he was just kidding? DO THIS is pretty clear to me, but if clarity does not come easily to you, I pray it will, in time....

and you're most profound lie,
" In that twenty years, no one ever mentioned the Gospel to me "

Well then I do not know where you were, Bill, but the Gospel of our Lord Jesus is read at EVERY MASS. EVERY. Without exception.
So protest all you want, but don't lie. That's a sin, too.
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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

Please explain to us how God, who is eternal, preexisting, always has existed -- can have a Mother.

Mother implies one gave birth. Did Mary give birth to God the Father?

Mary was used as a human vessel to nurture and birth the human body through which Christ displayed His human nature. Mary had nothing whatsoever to do with the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ.

Yes, God the Son and God the Father are one and both are preexisting, therefore God. But, this aspect of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Mary.

Mary birthed and raised the human Jesus. Then, Mary birthed and raised a number of other children. Then, Mary, like all mortal humans -- died and is now in heaven the same as my mother and all other Christian mothers.

Mary is a saint only in that she is a Christian believer like all Christian believers. She can no more hear your prayers that can my mother or anyone else's mother.

No, VP, Mary is NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD. Common sense should tell you that.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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No, Bill Gray,
YOU are wrong. Mary is a Saint in Heaven, and is, indeed the Mother of God, as Jesus and God the Father are one.
But I am convinced that anyone that can spend 20 years in a Church and claim to not have heard the Gospel will never understand.

Hail, Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with Thee.
Blessed are you among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God. Pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death, AMEN.

The Lord is with Mary, and the Fruit of her womb is Jesus. Hmm....could they be one and the same?? duh....
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

If you will dust off your Bible and open it to John 19:30, you will find that, on the cross, Jesus Christ declared, "It is finished!"

This meant that His work of salvation through His crucifixion WAS FINISHED. No more sacrifices are required; He did it all "Once for all."

Animals sacrifices were done over and over -- for they could not fully satisfy the pure justice of God. Jesus Christ was and is the Perfect Lamb, the "once for all" sacrifice which can offer salvation to all who will, by grace, through faith, believe and receive this "free gift" -- which was "paid in full" by Him.

VP, Jesus said it is finished! Why do you feel a need to keep sacrificing Him on the cross every week?

My Friend, IT IS FINISHED!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
IT IS FINISHED!


Yes, it is finished. His earthly life.
Don't read more into it, than what He says. He is saying He is dying, and commends His spirit to the Father.

Show me where you find the words "free gift" , "paid in full"and "once and for all" ver batim in the bible, please.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
My Friend, IT IS FINISHED!

Yes, it is finished. His earthly life. Don't read more into it, than what He says. He is saying He is dying, and commends His spirit to the Father. Show me where you find the words "free gift" and "once and for all" verbatim in the bible, please.

Okay, VP,

We will play your word game.

John 19:30, "Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

VP, I do not believe even your priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope would draw the conclusion that you did -- that Jesus only meant that His earthly life was finished. My Friend, that is really reaching to come to that conclusion. No, when Jesus said, "It is finished!" -- He was speaking of the reason He had come to earth -- to die on the cross to pay our sin debt, to defeat Satan, and to offer the "free gift" of salvation to all who will, by grace, through faith in Him, believe and receive this "free gift" of eternal salvation.

Romans 6:10, "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."

Hebrews 7:27, "Who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12, "And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Hebrews 10:10, "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

1 Peter 3:18, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

VP, by its very nature -- ALL GIFTS ARE FREE. If it is a gift -- it is free. If one has to work for it -- it is WAGES. And, we are told that the WAGES of sin is death. Give me the FREE GIFT any day.

But, so that you cannot wiggle and squirm to change the meaning of GIFT; here are other Scripture verses which do say specifically FREE GIFT.

Romans 5:15, "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

Romans 5:16, "The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification."

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And, there, my Friend, you have the truth from the Word of God -- the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God.

By the way, VP, when you attend church -- do you take your Bible with you? Or, only your Missal and Rosary?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
VP, I do not believe even your priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope would draw the conclusion that you did -- that Jesus only meant that His earthly life was finished. My Friend, that is really reaching to come to that conclusion. No, when Jesus said, "It is finished!" -- He was speaking of the reason He had come to earth -- to die on the cross to pay our sin debt, to defeat Satan, and to offer the "free gift


It is finished. Earthly life. Fulfillment of Scripture. Period. Nobody re-sacrifices Jesus, Bill. Nor do I even own a Missal...but yes, I love to pray and meditate the Rosary, as it is a beautiful prayer of the GOSPEL.
Don't bash the Rosary, Bill- for it is in fact, the Gospel of Our Lord.
Now. I have truly had enough. You will never change my mind.
I would give up my life for the truth that the Catholic Church stands for.
So, why don't you go find some atheists or someone else to pick on. As for me, I am just fine.
Oh, and Prince Albert- thanks for sharing the incredible story of St. Peter. May we all take a lesson in his humility.....
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

The last time I looked the Gospel was the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His sacrificial death on the cross to pay our sin debt, His resurrection to defeat death, and His ascension to sit at the right hand of God the Father -- where He is our ONLY mediator, interceding for all believers with the Father. That is the Gospel.

What is the Rosary?

ONE Apostles' Creed: I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ His only Son, Our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

FIVE Our Fathers: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

FIFTY Hail Marys: Hail Mary, full of grace! the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I will admit that the Apostles' Creed does reflect the Gospel. And, I, too, revere the Our Father prayer which Jesus Christ gave us as a guideline for prayer.

However, you say the Apostles' Creed once -- then, you do 5 Our Fathers -- and 50 Hail Marys.

So, this must mean that Mary is 50 times more important than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No, my Friend, although Mary was a blessed, very special woman -- she was just that -- A WOMAN. She is not divine, she is not the Mother of God, she is not the Queen of Heaven. She is the woman who birthed the human nature of Jesus Christ -- then birthed His brothers and sisters -- and, then, like all mortal humans; she died and her spirit went into heaven while her body went into the grave, like all mortals.

Praying to or worshiping a dead mortal -- gains one nothing. Praying to our One Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ gains us eternal life.

VP, I am not on the Religion Forum to bash or denigrate your beliefs. However when you run them up the flag pole -- you must expect those of us who know Biblical truths to shoots holes in them.

By the way, I am surprised that you do not have a Missal. I have several. How do you follow the order of the mass without a Missal -- unless you have it all memorized? Or, maybe the church supplies Missals for each mass. Do you take a Bible to church?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
So, this must mean that Mary is 50 times more important than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


No, that is not an accurate deduction. Each set of ten Hail Mary prayers follows a mystery..The entire Rosary (ie all the Mysteries) are centered around the Gospel, Bill. You missed the entire "Meat" of the Rosary. The mysteries. The Gospel, on which we reflect and pray as we recite prayers. You have completely missed it. NO wonder you were so lost in Church!
And the Hail Mary is used as a meditation. During the Hail Mary's one is encouraged to reflect on the mystery on which we are praying. It is a beautiful way to focus on our Lord. And, you are incorrect- the Mysteries, (there are 5) are in complete accordance with the written Word of God.
For example, the sorrowful mysteries. (Tues, Fridays, and Sundays during Lent)
1. the agony in the garden
2. the scourging at the pillar
3. the crowning with thorns
4. the carrying of the cross.
5. the death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you'd like, I can provide you with all of the mysteries.
And you forgot, the "Glory Be".
Glory be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end, Amen.
Now, we also add this prayer at the end of each "decade".
O, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen".

Bill, I understand that you cannot understand many things that are Catholic. The Eucharist is something you just have to have faith in, because Jesus tells us that it IS His flesh. You ignore that fact. And that's your right. But don't pretend that scripture doesn't exist. You think we pray to statues? whatever. The Pope is infallible when teaching doctrine? believe if you will. I do.
But as for the Holy Rosary, come on, Bill. It is a prayer for people in need of mercy, and a prayer of praise and reflection. I really think anyone that takes issue with the Rosary is in need of some help. Read the prayers, Bill. Heck, pray them aloud. You might be surprised by the power of prayer. Smiler
And FYI, yes, I do have the entire Order of the Mass memorized. That comes from years of going to Mass 4 days per week. No better way to start my day, than with the Lord, in the Real Presence of the Eucharist. The eternal, and ever living Sacrifice. I need all the help I can get in this life, and I find all strength I need through the Word made Flesh, which is Jesus.
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one more thing, Bill.
You say that you attended the Catholic Church for 20 years before you believed in Christ.
Were you raised Catholic? Did you receive First Communion? Confirmation? You don't have to answer, I'm just very curious.
Also, since you spent such a very long time in the Church before being a Christian, I would like to propose a challenge. I think it would behoove you to attend Mass, just once. See how your feelings may or may have not changed. I am not trying to convert you, (or PUSH my faith on you). But I am troubled that you think you attended the Church for 20 years without hearing the Gospel, and without finding God. Truly, and honestly- I don't believe you participated or listened. or perhaps you were steered wrong.
If you are truly sincere in your quest to be the best Christian you can be, I would encourage you to go- just once. I would wager that you might just find that it's not the empty tomb you recall....now that you actually BELIEVE in Jesus.
I imagine there are more than plenty of Catholic churches in SoCal. Why not just go sometime, and see what it's REALLY about- not just your myths and falsehoods....
I promise, you won't burst into flames. And you just might come out with a better understanding.
b50mb50mOld Faithful
VP, You have a lot of patience. You might like the bottom post from Joy. She doesn't come here much anymore. To nice a lady for the arguing and lies.

Mr gray, a little history for you. Please see the bold line and then tell me you never lie.

http://forums.timesdaily.com/e...041004648#9041004648
Bill Gray
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Posted 23 February 2009 01:00 AM Hide Post

quote:
:
Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
So I guess from this thread's current status that since I am a Catholic some people think I am not a Christian. That's interesting. Just doesn't fit my definition.



Hi Alabama,

That is not what I said, nor what I meant. I said that while I was in the Roman Catholic church, I was not a Christian. I was there for all the wrong reasons: The bigness of that church, the mystery of that church, the security of that church, etc. -- I was looking for a "mother" to adopt me -- and the Roman Catholic church fit that bill.

Do I think Roman Catholics are wrong to worship statues, rosaries, icons, etc -- and to pray to saints? Yes; but, that is between them and God. The Bible tells us that there is only one mediator between man and God -- the man, Jesus Christ.


_Joy_
Post Master
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Posted 27 February 2009 05:28 PM Hide Post

quote:
:
Originally posted by AlabamaSon:
So I guess from this thread's current status that since I am a Catholic some people think I am not a Christian. That's interesting. Just doesn't fit my definition.




I am fairly certain nothing I've ever said could be taken that way, but just in case...if you...

"confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.'"

...& that is what makes someone a Christian.

Denominations are man-made. There is one church and one body with Christ as head.

JMHO
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
Old BeeGee evidently has had so many religious experiences that range from Mainline Protestant to New Age to Roman Catholic before settling on whatever he is now that is quite mystifying that he does not understand the tenets of that which he claims to have been a part of for so long to me.

I think he ought to investigate Mormen for they would fit his cup of tea -- a great witticism if I do say so myself, alluding to both the teapartiers, the Mormen prohibition of caffeine and based on a banal too often repeated old adage -- so very nicely: people to watch you for foul ups like getting buying Folgers or Lipton, getting caught in a wreck minus holy underwear, etc. Why, they believe the US Constitution is inspired by God and love to teaparty and bash the gays and new comers. Sounds like he and Ogden would be perfect for one another.

The Mormen and Shemorms are also nearly 100% Republican voters, just like Jesus was.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi B50m,

I have to admit that I am confused. Where do you see a lie or a contradiction?

And, although Joy and I have agreed to disagree once in a while; we do not disagree on salvation and that is is not from the church one attends; but, what is in the heart.

A person, regardless of his/her church, has salvation if, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- he/she believes and receives His "free gift" of eternal salvation.

That is what Joy is saying. That is what I have always said.

So, my Friend -- where is the lie?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Neal/Aude,

Yes, my Friend, I have traveled an often troubled road. I have been lost in the pagan world of wine, women, and song. I have been lost in the mystical world of New Age paganism. I wandered lost in the Roman Catholic world for years.

But, praise God, in 1987 -- I found the true WAY and have been a SAVED soul since then. Yes, my Friend, it is a great comfort to KNOW that one has eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.

I pray that you, too, have this peace of mind.

The beautiful part of my long, troubled, and often rocky road in the world is that -- now, I can relate to others who are mired in the world, I can truly know what they are going through. And, just maybe, I can help them avoid many of the pitfalls I did not miss. Yes, God can use even our mistakes to glorify His kingdom and to help others become His children.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
I can truly know what they are going through. And, just maybe, I can help them avoid many of the pitfalls I did not miss.


Not really....you're poor understanding of the Church, and the Holy Mass would lead me to believe that you really can be of no help to anyone, except maybe someone in a remote area that has never heard of the Gospel.
You have made it clear that you can sit in church 20 years without hearing a thing- really, I don't think you are in a good position to "help" anyone.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
I can truly know what they are going through. And, just maybe, I can help them avoid many of the pitfalls I did not miss.

Not really....you're poor understanding of the Church, and the Holy Mass would lead me to believe that you really can be of no help to anyone, except maybe someone in a remote area that has never heard of the Gospel.
You have made it clear that you can sit in church 20 years without hearing a thing- really, I don't think you are in a good position to "help" anyone.

Hi VP,

My, my, you are all riled up. Yes, I sat in the Roman Catholic church for 20 years -- and learned nothing. There are two reasons for this:

First, as we both agree, I was not a Christian believer. And, not being a Christian believer, I did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide and teach me.

Second, the Gospel was NEVER preached in the Roman Catholic churches I attended. As a matter of fact, no one in the church even had a Bible. Oh, the priest may have had one somewhere on his altar -- but, he kept if well hidden.

Yes, I enjoyed the Latin mumbo-jumbo, for it sounded mysterious. And, I got a kick out of having statues, etc., blessed by the priest. Just like the wafer and grape juice -- the statues he blessed SUDDENLY became holy and was transformed. At least, that is what he would have had me believe.

No, my Friend, until I found the Baptist church -- I never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
quote:
No, my Friend, until I found the Baptist church -- I never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Well, then I seriously question your intellect, or "listening skills". Because, I assure you that the Gospel of the Lord is proclaimed at EVERY Mass. No exceptions. Ever.
Your lies are out of hand. I used to think maybe you just slept through Mass, or didn't pay attention, but now I am convinced that you are really and truly a liar. Am I riled up? You bet I am, because you are spreading lies about the Catholic, Universal Body of Christ. And you are a blasphemous old fool.
Google the Liturgy of the Word, sometime. Or Catholic Mass. Or Proclamation of the Gospel.
You will find, that you are completely wrong.
I know you won't do it, so here you go:
The Liturgy Of The Word



In the liturgy of the word Christians come together to thank God for God’s gifts. Listening to God’s word (the Bible) they grow in faith more conformed to the mind of Christ. Liturgy celebrates the wonders of creation and gives thanks for the reality of redemption. The liturgy is a celebration not of what God has said, but of God today speaking to our hearts and souls.

A). The First Reading: -The Hebrew Scriptures: The first reading is mostly chosen from the Old Testament and during some seasons the Book of Acts might be read. This reading usually harmonizes with the Gospel reading (see below). This reveals the continuity between Israel and Jesus who comes not to replace but to fulfill Israel.



B). The Responsorial Psalm: The Psalm reflects themes in the readings. The Psalm consists of an antiphon. This is a vehicle of prayer and praise - an atmosphere of prayer within which the readings occur.



C). The Second Reading - The Christian Scriptures: This reading is also referred to as the Epistle, is usually from one of the letters in the New Testament which may also include the Book of Acts or the Book of Revelations. While the letters address particular situations in the early Church, their message transcends the centuries to motivate contemporary Christians and deepen our appreciation of the mystery of Christ.



D). The Gospel - Alleluia: “Alleluia” is a Latin echo of the Hebrew acclamation “Praise God!” and is a key word in Christian worship. Here it heralds the Gospel. In a solemn celebration the church deacon goes to the altar where the Gospel is enthroned. He lifts the book and, accompanied by servants (altar-boys) with candles and on some occasions incense (symbols of Christ’s light), processes with the Gospels held high while choir and community acclaim the good news with “Alleluia,” alternating with verses appropriate to today’s Gospel. Christians acclaim the most wonderful deed of God among humankind, Jesus Christ, here made visible in the book containing His words and message to us all.



E). The Gospel Reading: The Gospel is the climax of the liturgy of the word. Catholic faith teaches that in proclaiming the Gospel, Christ is truly present to the community. For this reason the community stands to witness to Christ’s resurrection which allows him to be present to his people.



As the deacon or priest introduce the Gospels all in the community sign themselves with the sign of the cross traced on the forehead, the lips and over the heart. This signing reminds us “Christ in my thoughts” <forehead>, “Christ from my lips or what I say”<lips> and “Christ in my heart” <over the heart>.



Hearing the Gospel proclaimed also reminds and identifies Catholics with the first community which heard these words for the mouth of Jesus. On the conclusion of the reading the minister proclaims, “This is the Gospel of the Lord.” He means not the book, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the “Good News” itself. The community affirms in faith by responding, “Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ”.

This is standard, Bill. Every Mass, around the entire world. Guaranteed. So please, don't ever state that the Gospel is not heard in Catholic Churches. You were just not listening, evidently.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

In my earlier post, I wrote, "No, my Friend, until I found the Baptist church -- I never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

And, you angrily respond, "Well, then I seriously question your intellect, or "listening skills". Because, I assure you that the Gospel of the Lord is proclaimed at EVERY Mass. No exceptions. Ever. Your lies are out of hand. I used to think maybe you just slept through Mass, or didn't pay attention, but now I am convinced that you are really and truly a liar. Am I riled up? You bet I am, because you are spreading lies about the Catholic, Universal Body of Christ. And you are a blasphemous old fool. Google the Liturgy of the Word, sometime. Or Catholic Mass. Or Proclamation of the Gospel. You will find, that you are completely wrong."

Well, we need to clear up several issues. First, I did spend about twenty years in the Roman Catholic church. I sat faithfully listening to the priest read in Latin and at the appropriate time we would respond in Latin, which I am sure few of us understood. Am I a liar when I say this? No.

But, let me ask you, the statement you made, "And you are a blasphemous old fool" -- did you learn this in Mass, or was this taught to you in your Catechism lessons?

What is the Gospel? Gospel means "Good News" -- and we are sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us when we share the Gospel.

What has Jesus Christ done for us? He lay aside His divine nature, left the throne room of God, and:

He was born of the virgin Mary to be like His brethren in all things, that He might be our High Priest (Hebrews 2:17).

He died on the cross to make propitiation for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17). What does this mean, propitiation? It means that His death on the cross was an atonement, i.e., God's act to restore a relationship of harmony and unity between Himself and man. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, He defeated Satan. Satan has lost the war, but, he keeps fighting battles trying to keep as many as possible from accepting this "free gift" of atonement, of salvation, which God has purchased on the cross through the blood of Jesus Christ.

He rose from the grave, resurrected -- and His resurrection assures our resurrection to eternal life: believers with Him; non-believers with Satan.

He appeared to over 500 believers during the 40 days before His ascension.

He ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father -- as our ONLY mediator between God and man.

He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell, live inside, seal, all believers from the moment they believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation -- to guide us, to teach us, and to convict us.

He intercedes for all believers; He is our Divine Advocate, our Divine Counselor -- continually speaking on our behalf to God the Father.

He is coming again to claim His bride, the church from the world.

He has promised eternal life to all who, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- become children of God.

He will not break that promise!

That, my Friend, is the "Good News of Jesus Christ" -- the Gospel.

Reading from one of the Missals I have, I find:

Using the Missal at Mass: Endeavor, therefore to "follow" the priest, his gestures and his motions. Instead of merely following him with your eyes, speak, in unison with him, the words the Church bids him to say.

So, the priest MUST speak only the pre-written words which the "Church" tells him to repeat. Not the Bible, not the Lord -- but, what the "Church" tells him what to repeat -- by rote.

Then, let's skip on over and get into the actual words of the Mass: "I confess to Almighty God, to Blessed Mary, ever virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly. . ." Do you notice anyone missing in this liturgy?

In 1 Timothy 2:5, we read, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

This Scripture verse tells me that we should be praying to Jesus Christ and confessing only to Him. Yet, in your prayer taken directly from the Roman Catholic Missal, the order of the Mass -- we see them praying to everyone EXCEPT Jesus Christ.

Why is that?

No, VP, you may scream out in anger at me and call me, "A liar and you are a blasphemous old fool" -- but, what I have written above comes from the Bible and from your Roman Catholic Missal which is used in your Mass. By the way, where were you taught to respond to people in this manner?

It is funny that, in the three years I have been on the Forums -- the only people who respond in this manner have been the atheists, secularists, and some non-believers -- and a small number of Liberal Theology followers. Many others will often disagree with me on theology -- but, they do not sink to name calling such as this. So, when you do this, you are putting yourself on the same level as the atheists and secularist -- not good company for anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
quote:
So, when you do this, you are putting yourself on the same level as the atheists and secularist -- not good company for anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ.


No. Not at all. I am an outraged Christian. Outraged at your lies about the Church.
I am not "screaming" at you, as we are not verbally conversing.
You have, indeed outraged and offended me as never in my life. So if that's your goal, you have accomplished it. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that you have also offended our Lord.
But it's an interesting mix, because with outrage also is mixed a pity for you. You are quite clueless. And, as I have said, anyone that claims to have sat in Church for 20 years and not heard the Gospel...well that is just pathetic.
You have blasphemed more than once, on this forum, particularily against the Holy Eucharist. You have lied about the Gospel not being part of Mass- when in fact, it is not just "part", but it is the center.
You have likened the Blessed Virgin Mother to your own mother. While I am sure she was lovely, she is not Blessed, handchosen by God to give birth to Jesus. You have called priests "magic". You have called catholics "cannibals". You have stated that all Catholics should and will eventually leave their church when they become Christians.
And you wonder why I am outraged?
Your lies and propagation of your fundamentalist views are exhausting. Your false ministry, and the way you "sneak away" and change the subject when proven wrong is transparent. I really pity you. You are a very very misled and troubled person.

You say Catholics pray to everyone except Jesus.
This is another lie. All prayers are made in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Don't even attempt to say that we don't pray to Jesus.
Pray for God's mercy, Bill.

You're Gospel summary:
He rose from the grave, resurrected -- and His resurrection assures our resurrection to eternal life: believers with Him; non-believers with Satan.

He appeared to over 500 believers during the 40 days before His ascension.

He ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father -- as our ONLY mediator between God and man.

He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell, live inside, seal, all believers from the moment they believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation -- to guide us, to teach us, and to convict us.

He intercedes for all believers; He is our Divine Advocate, our Divine Counselor -- continually speaking on our behalf to God the Father.

He is coming again to claim His bride, the church from the world.

He has promised eternal life to all who, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- become children of God.

He will not break that promise!

That, my Friend, is the "Good News of Jesus Christ" -- the Gospel.


The Nicene Creed:
( As recited at every Mass)
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen.
We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father before all worlds, God from God, Light from Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

I believe that the Nicene Creed will quite nicely refute all of your false allegations and mistruths quite nicely. I have nothing more to say to you.
FM Former Member
quote:
"I confess to Almighty God, to Blessed Mary, ever virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly. . ." Do you notice anyone missing in this liturgy?



One more thing....No I don't notice anyone missing. God is the first Name.
"I confess to Almighty God".
That would be the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nobody's missing. Not at all.
Here is the penitential prayer, in it's corrected entirety:
I confess to Almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault.

we lightly strike our breast

in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.

Amen.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

I wrote in my earlier post, "Then, let's skip on over and get into the actual words of the Mass: 'I confess to Almighty God, to Blessed Mary, ever virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly. . .' Do you notice anyone missing in this liturgy?"

And, you respond, "One more thing....No I don't notice anyone missing. God is the first Name. "I confess to Almighty God". That would be the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nobody's missing. Not at all."

So, then, when Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethsemane -- He was praying to HIMSELF?

In Luke 11:1-2, after the apostles asked Jesus, "'Lord, teach us to pray. . .' And He said to them, 'When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come."

If your rule applies, why didn't Jesus teach His disciples to pray, "When you pray, say: 'Jesus, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come."

No, Jesus Christ made a distinction between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit -- one God, three different, distinct Persons. So, no, when you say, "I confess to Almighty God" -- you are referring to God the Father.

Then, you tell me, "Here is the penitential prayer, in it's corrected entirety: I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. we lightly strike our breast. in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen."

That is interesting, for I am quoting directly from a Roman Catholic Missal, word for word. It was printed by the Catholic Book Publishing Company -- and has the Imprimatur of Francis Cardinal Spellman, D.D., Archbishop of New York.

And, word for word, this is what this Missal tells us:

'I confess to Almighty God, to Blessed Mary, ever virgin, to Blessed Michael the Archangel, to Blessed John the Baptist, to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and to all the Saints, and to you, Father, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, (strike breast three times, saying) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the Saints, and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God for me.

May Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. Amen."

Why is there a difference? This Missal says "and all the Saints" -- capitalized meaning the church canonized Saints. Yet your prayer changes it to "and you, my brothers and sisters" -- what happened to the canonized Saints?

And, what really confuses me is that the Missal I have says, "and you, Father, to pray to the Lord our God for me."

This tells me that Cardinal Spellman is asking God the Father to pray to who -- Jesus Christ? Isn't that backwards? Haven't we been told in the Bible that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God the Father and man? So, why are you casting the Father in the role of the Mediator?

VP, it seems that whatever book or Missal you got your prayer from -- has certainly been Liberalized since Cardinal Spellman blessed the printing of my Missal.

And, I look at the very first Missal I was ever given; one with an Imprimatur by John Francis Noll, D.D., Bishop of Ft. Wayne -- and, it reads exactly the same, word for word, as the one from Cardinal Spellman. The only difference is that this Missal does not include the instruction: (strike breast three times, saying).

So, VP, where did you get your Prayer of Confession?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
So, when you do this, you are putting yourself on the same level as the atheists and secularist -- not good company for anyone who claims to follow Jesus Christ.

No. Not at all. I am an outraged Christian. Outraged at your lies about the Church. I am not "screaming" at you, as we are not verbally conversing.

Hi VP,

We do not have to be verbally discussing -- for a person to be screaming. But, maybe I used the wrong wording. Possibly, I should have said:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No, VP, you may curse me and call me names in anger such as, "A liar and you are a blasphemous old fool" -- but, what I have written above comes from the Bible and from your Roman Catholic Missal which is used in your Mass. By the way, where were you taught to respond to people in this manner?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Would that have been more accurate? If so, then, I pose the same question -- did you learn this in Mass, Catechism class, or where? Where in the Roman Catholic church are you taught to respond to people like this?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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