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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus will accomplish what the Father has commissioned Him to do, that is to save sinners? If all have sinned, who is left out?

Hi Riggs

No one is left out. God has excluded no one. Jesus Christ died for the sins of all the world.


I believe that, but you don't. You do not believe it is enough to actually save the world do you? How can Jesus be "the Savior of the world" and not actually save the world? What you are trying to say is that He is not really the Savior of the world, just the "potential" Savior of the world, correct?

quote:

However, God gave us the gift of "free will" -- so, we MUST choose to follow Jesus Christ or to deny Him.

All who choose to follow Him will have eternal life with God.

All who choose to deny Him will have eternal life in hell with Satan.

So, it is not as your Universalist Unitarian cult church teaches -- universal salvation for all. That would negate His gift of "free will" -- and God never gives a gift and then takes it back.


Where in Scriptures have you seen anyone "choose" Christ? Where in SCRIPTURES does it say God gave us a gift called "free will"? What do these Scriptures mean to you Mr. Gray?

Joh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws [Greek:drags] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Consider Saul, before he was the Apostle Paul. Saul was on his merry way on the road to Damascus to persecute followers of Christ, when all of a sudden...

Act 9:3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
Act 9:6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

Where was Saul's "free will" to resist what Jesus told him to do? Saul was determined to persecute Jesus and His followers, why the sudden change? Truth is this was to be a pattern for how Jesus saves the world.

1Ti 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
1Ti 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost (foremost sinner), Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example [Greek: pattern] for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

If Jesus could save the worst sinner in the history of the world in a matter of seconds, how much easier will the lesser sinners of the world be? God dragged Saul to Jesus for a pattern that will be repeated over and over until all have been dragged to Jesus, and all WILL be dragged to Him.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek:drag] all men to Myself."

1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

You cannot believe this unless you let go of your idols of your heart, better yet, unless God does to you what He did to Saul. What idols of the heart you ask? The one you believe that can thwart the plan of God to save all, the same power Paul thought he had before he was dragged to Christ, it is the incredible, God defying, blasphemous, satanic belief that God has given us a gift call "free will". A challenge to you Mr. Gray, if you have a God defying power such as "free will" then you should be able to completely stop sinning, so do it. Or do you despise the goodness, and the kindness of God that leads you to repentance, NOT your "free will"?

Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly (despise) of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills (what "free will") or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

quote:


Riggs, even you, if you will choose to follow Jesus Christ instead of a cult church -- can be assured of eternal life with God. Give it a try; you will be eternally happy that you did.


There is no need to worry about my salvation, or anyone else', it is a sure thing my friend, as God has that on lock down, and He does not need your help.

Isa 40:4 "Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley;
Isa 40:5 Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Luk 3:5 'EVERY RAVINE WILL BE FILLED, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL WILL BE BROUGHT LOW; THE CROOKED WILL BECOME STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH;
Luk 3:6 AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.

This IS the good news of the gospel, but then again...

Rom 10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" (Isa. 53:1)

Why have you not believed Mr. Gray? Maybe we can work this out, I mean that, ask me anything, either by pm or here, and I will do my best to find you an scriptural answer for what ever doubts you may have.



Peace

gdriggs
Last edited by gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP,

You say that I duck questions. Yet, YOU still have not responded to my questions:

Yet, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, it tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

VP, what does it mean when it says: "by grace you have been saved through faith"?

What does it mean when it says: "it is the gift of God"?

What does it mean when it says: "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS"?

VP, what is God telling us in these parts of Scripture?


I will make you a deal. If you will honestly answers these questions now -- I promise I will answer your question about the person dying while committing a sin.

Deal? We shall see.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


I am grievously wounded, Bill. Here you are responding to VP, but you will not answer my post in this same string. You pick 'em and choose 'em, dontcha, Bill? When it SUITS YOU to argue, you argue; when it SUITS YOU to crawfish away, you put all 10 appendages in reverse and squeal, "I am Bill; I don't argue!"!
gdriggs---

When I started reading your post, I thought, "Here comes a Calvinist for sure." Then I read further and it seems to me you must be a universalist. Is that true or have I misinterpreted something here? Serious question--I am asking this respectfully.

We haven't had a deep-dyed universalist here in a long time, so if that is what you are, stick around. It could add some variety to the soup, especially when we get to those passages about the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
gdriggs---

When I started reading your post, I thought, "Here comes a Calvinist for sure." Then I read further and it seems to me you must be a universalist. Is that true or have I misinterpreted something here? Serious question--I am asking this respectfully.

We haven't had a deep-dyed universalist here in a long time, so if that is what you are, stick around. It could add some variety to the soup, especially when we get to those passages about the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness.


Yes I do believe in the salvation of all mankind, but there's a lot of things the universalism crowd teaches and believes that I do not. I'm not all into labels, but if you had to label me I suppose you can call me an "Jesus-ist" or just a plain ole follower of Christ. Wink

Interestingly, Calvinist do believe in free will, but only after their election. Besides they believe in hell, I do not.

I used to believe in free will back when I was an "hellfire" preaching Christian , until I realized what a sin it was to deny the Sovereignty of God, and until I realized the fact God is Love.

If you can believe Scriptures that state God never changes, and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and that we are to use sound doctrine when we teach by comparing or matching spiritual words with spiritual words, and that we are to provide at least two witness to establish a truth because of the fact no single piece of Scripture fully explains itself, then the lake of fire makes perfect sense. Whether or not I have made any sense having said all that is another question Roll Eyes , so I will just show you.

First it is important to believe God never changes and that He is consistently consistent.

Mal 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Jas 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Heb 13:9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

Once we have established that He is consistently consistent, we can safely conclude what He says in His Word is also always consistent, in that what He says in one verse about a subject does not change in another verse. We must also understand no one piece of Scripture explains itself.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.

We need at very least two supporting Scriptures to explain whatever you are reading, by comparing or matching them.

1Co 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Armed with this knowledge, we can know the verses which speak about "the lake of fire" does not explain itself. We would need another witness to explain it, and the truth can be revealed.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I have bold a few keywords with which to match other verses to it. There is only one other place which speaks about every mans work and fire, and it is most revealing.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is not enough to just show you the match, as it takes the Holy Spirit to convince you it is true.

Now add to the mix that Jesus only taught in parables, defined as "fictitious narratives" and you can see why so many are being mislead through the teaching of literalism.

Peace

gdriggs
well Bill,
You call the shots, do ya?! I've asked you a thousand times to answer the question, and you dodged it. However, I take these discussions seriously, and although I do not know all the answers, I do have opinions, and teachings that I have taken to heart. When someone asks me a question, I will genuinely and honestly try to answer.
Now. I will gladly answer your questions.
First
By faith you have been saved- YES by accepting the Risen Christ as Lord we are all Children of God.
BUT IT DOESNT STOP THERE- WE CAN FALL FROM GRACE>
When someone asks me if I have "been saved", my response is
"I have been saved, I am BEING saved, and I pray that I will be saved after this earthly life".
Second:
Faith through grace alone, not by works, so that no man can boast- I believe here, God is setting us up as equals. Equally humble, equally sinful, and equally in need of His Divine Mercy.
So basically saying a priest who gives his life in service is just as equally a child of God as is the pauper on the street.
I believe Jesus is telling us that He won't care that Jenny donated 1.5 million dollars to build a gym for Jesus.
That is my take on these verses, because in other (previously cited) scripture, God clearly describes and warns that the gate to Heaven is narrow, and that Many will seek to enter. Also, he tells us that SIN separates us from God.
SO, I have told you my answers to the best of my capability, honestly and completely.
Take it or leave it. The point is, Jesus gave us an example to live by-to strive for- and we, because of our inherent sinfulness will NEVER achieve.
So, grace, yes. We need it every day. But just saying "Hallelujah, I'm born again, I'm saved"- well, those are just words.
If all we needed to do was say "Yes, Lord, we believe", then WHY would Jesus have had to suffer?
Because He had to be rejected. And a cast-off. And scorned and denied. So that true mercy and forgiveness may be defined. So that TRUE LOVE can be revealed. If all that was needed was an affirmation, He could have revealed Himself to the entire World, in all His glory- but He didn't.
He humbled Himself. To a helpless infant. So that He could experience and truly become Emmanuel- God among us.
The " work "is in striving to be more like the example given to us by Christ. And THAT, my friend, does not come naturally. We are conditioned to be selfish, to put ourselves first. We are not made up, in this society to lay it all down, and pick up the Cross and Follow Him. Yet that is what we are called to do.
And in my opinion, a "rebirth" and declaration of Christ our Savior is just the beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
Bill you have quoted this so many times to me I know what you are going to respond to beternu

Eph 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. by Faith nothing more nothing less.

I still don't believe it though Bill.

Hi Albert,

First, I have no intention of responding to Beter -- for he/she is only on the Forum to argue; and, I do not like to argue. It is senseless.

On the other hand, there are many, like yourself, who are here to have discussions -- and that interests me.

Regarding your comment on Ephesians 2:8-9; you say you do not believe it. Are you saying that the Bible is lying; that it tells us an untruth?

If so, since God authored the Bible; you are saying that God is lying to us. Now, you and I both know that you do not believe this.

So, how do you explain that you can say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true; yet God, the author, has not lied?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


No Bill I am not accusing God of Lying and I believe what it says but you want to say that you are save by Faith only, James says that ye see then that a man is justified by works and not by Faith only, James 2:24

have you noticed ephesians 2:8 it says that you are save by Grace, (through faith not by Faith)and then when you complete his whole command to confess that you believe Jesus is th Son of God and repent of your sins and have your sins washed away in the act of Baptism where you come into contact with the Blood of Christ then you are saved, and then you are a new creature and as long as you walk in his commandments you are saved, but can fall away and be in a lost condition again if you turn back, but you can go to the Church and confess that you have committed Sin and ask the church's forgiveness and the Lord will forgive you too. and we may know that we are saved, 1John 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Last edited by prince albert
That was right on vplee123. You have defined 'grace' wonderfully and accurately.

Grace

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

It is not our works by which we are saved, but the works He does through us, made possible by His divine influence on our hearts which causes us to do as He wills.

Eph 2:8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting."
Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

If you understand "grace" you understand Who is really doing the works.

Peace

gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
No Bill I am not accusing God of Lying and I believe what it says but you want to say that you are save by Faith only, James says that ye see then that a man is justified by works and not by Faith only, James 2:24

have you noticed ephesians 2:8 it says that you are save by Grace, (through faith not by Faith)and then when you complete his whole command to confess that you believe Jesus is th Son of God and repent of your sins and have your sins washed away in the act of Baptism where you come into contact with the Blood of Christ then you are saved, and then you are a new creature and as long as you walk in his commandments you are saved, but can fall away and be in a lost condition again if you turn back, but you can go to the Church and confess that you have committed Sin and ask the church's forgiveness and the Lord will forgive you too. and we may know that we are saved, 1John 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Hi Albert,

If you want to live in the shadows of legalism and never have the blessed assurance of Jesus Christ's blood purchased "free gift" told to us in Ephesians 2:8-9 -- not a problem.

You go ahead and travel toward eternal life, always looking over your shoulder to see who will steal your salvation.

And, I will continue to travel toward eternity looking only ahead at the Sonshine.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
well Bill, You call the shots, do ya?! I've asked you a thousand times to answer the question, and you dodged it.

Hi VP,

I have told you in several posts -- you answer my questions about Ephesians 2:8-9 and I promise I will answer your question regarding the person who dies while sinning. As Howie Mandel asks, "Deal -- or No Deal?"

So, VP -- you answer this:

Yet, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, it tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

VP, what does it mean when it says: "by grace you have been saved through faith"?

What does it mean when it says: "it is the gift of God"?

What does it mean when it says: "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS"?

VP, what is God telling us in these parts of Scripture?

I will make you a deal. If you will honestly answers these questions now -- I promise I will answer your question about the person dying while committing a sin.


And, I will happily answer your question.

But, quite frankly -- I do not believe you will answer me. Why? Because then, if we both give our answers -- then, you will not have anything to rant, rave, and scream about. You will not be able to write, "But, you have not answered my question" -- and that would leave you feeling empty. Just a thought; but, I sincerely would love to have us both take a turn at bat.

Hey, go ahead! Call my bluff!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, she did.

quote:
Now. I will gladly answer your questions.
First
By faith you have been saved- YES by accepting the Risen Christ as Lord we are all Children of God.
BUT IT DOESNT STOP THERE- WE CAN FALL FROM GRACE>
When someone asks me if I have "been saved", my response is
"I have been saved, I am BEING saved, and I pray that I will be saved after this earthly life".
Second:
Faith through grace alone, not by works, so that no man can boast- I believe here, God is setting us up as equals. Equally humble, equally sinful, and equally in need of His Divine Mercy.
So basically saying a priest who gives his life in service is just as equally a child of God as is the pauper on the street.
I believe Jesus is telling us that He won't care that Jenny donated 1.5 million dollars to build a gym for Jesus.
That is my take on these verses, because in other (previously cited) scripture, God clearly describes and warns that the gate to Heaven is narrow, and that Many will seek to enter. Also, he tells us that SIN separates us from God.
SO, I have told you my answers to the best of my capability, honestly and completely.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Bill, she did.

quote:
Now. I will gladly answer your questions.
First
By faith you have been saved- YES by accepting the Risen Christ as Lord we are all Children of God.
BUT IT DOESNT STOP THERE- WE CAN FALL FROM GRACE>
When someone asks me if I have "been saved", my response is
"I have been saved, I am BEING saved, and I pray that I will be saved after this earthly life".
Second:
Faith through grace alone, not by works, so that no man can boast- I believe here, God is setting us up as equals. Equally humble, equally sinful, and equally in need of His Divine Mercy.
So basically saying a priest who gives his life in service is just as equally a child of God as is the pauper on the street.
I believe Jesus is telling us that He won't care that Jenny donated 1.5 million dollars to build a gym for Jesus.
That is my take on these verses, because in other (previously cited) scripture, God clearly describes and warns that the gate to Heaven is narrow, and that Many will seek to enter. Also, he tells us that SIN separates us from God.
SO, I have told you my answers to the best of my capability, honestly and completely.

Hi B,

I am sorry. Her post is so cluttered -- that I did not see her answer to my question.

I will go back and take a look. I want to see if she has truly answered the specific questions -- or just waltzed around them with more Catechism 101 quotes.

Thank you for pointing this out to me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
want to see if she has truly answered the specific questions -- or just waltzed around them with more Catechism 101 quotes.



So rude, so childish. I have never failed to answer a direct question. I do the best I can.
Read the post, Bill. I told you clearly, in a non cluttered fashion what I believe these Scripture passages IN THEIR CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD mean to me.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
want to see if she has truly answered the specific questions -- or just waltzed around them with more Catechism 101 quotes.

So rude, so childish. I have never failed to answer a direct question. I do the best I can.
Read the post, Bill. I told you clearly, in a non cluttered fashion what I believe these Scripture passages IN THEIR CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE WORD OF GOD mean to me.

Hi VP,

Well, actually, your post is very cluttered -- for it is one long, rambling paragraph. That is why I did not recognize that you had responded before.

But, when B50 graciously pointed out your answer to me -- I have written a response to you.

Since this discussion is getting rather long -- I have begun a new discussion titled "Ephesians 2:8-9 -- What Is It Really Telling Us?

I think you and I have made a nice, informative dialogue. Thank you for your effort.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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