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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Beware The New Age And Cult Teaching!" - my Friend, B50, has raised very good questions about the church, fundamentalism, eschatology, and what defines a Christian believer and a Christian church. Since I want to share this information with all my Forum Friends, I have begun a new discussion.

B50 tells me, "Bill, this is a quote about Fundamentalism I took from Wikipedia. I am asking you IF you agree to all that is there. Do you want to separate the believers in Christ by their denominations?"

From Wikipedia: "The Christian fundamentalist movement evolved during the early-to-mid 1900s to become separatist in nature and more characteristically dispensational in its theology.

Fundamentalists also criticize evangelicals for a lack of concern for doctrinal purity and for a lack of discernment in ecumenical endeavors in working cooperatively with other Christians of differing doctrinal views, even though some fundamentalists had been accused by their critics for doing the same (esp. embracing doctrines such as dispensationalism, "King James Only"-ism, the rapture, Christian Reconstructionism, etc. that critics argue have no biblical basis)."


This article is very misleading. In the years following the Civil War, and up into the early parts of the 1900s, Postmodernism, i.e., Liberalism -- Liberal Theology -- was growing in influence throughout America; especially in our colleges and universities. The young people were being taught Liberal Theology by Liberal professors and teachers. Conservative Theology Christians, fearing that its spread could mislead many sincere Christian believers and seekers -- decided to make an effort to combat the growth of Postmodernism.

In 1909, two affluent Christian laymen provided the funds to gather writings from many Conservative Christian theologians and Bible teachers, which defined the fundamentals of Conservative Christian theology, and publish them. The Fundamentals was published in twelve volumes, and was provided free to pastors, missionaries, Sunday School superintendents, and others engaged in active Christian teachings and ministries around the world. About 300,000 sets of these books were distributed.

Later, a newspaper writer coined the name Fundamentalist for all Conservative Christians because of this set of books. For many years, I was offended by the name -- until I began to study what it really meant and why The Fundamentals was written. Now, I am proud to be called a Fundamentalist.

Biola University later decided to publish the twelve volumes, titled The Fundamentals, in a set of four volumes and make it available to all Christians. I am thrilled to say that I have a set in my personal library.

Your article says, "Fundamentalists also criticize evangelicals for a lack of concern for doctrinal purity and for a lack of discernment in ecumenical endeavors in working cooperatively with other Christians of differing doctrinal views, . . ."

As long as churches and believers agree on the Essential Biblical Beliefs, Conservative Christians agree with them. What are the Essential Biblical Beliefs?

That the Bible, consisting of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally inspired revelation from God; and is His full plan for mankind and His full revelation to mankind. That it is without error in its moral and spiritual teaching, and in its record of historical facts.

There is one God, eternally existing and manifesting Himself in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is deity, He is God, who before His incarnation, existed in the form of God and of His own choice lay aside His divine nature and became a man in every aspect, possessed of all the human characteristics of man. He was and is fully God and fully man.

The Gospel: Our Lord Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived, born of the virgin, Mary; died on the cross for our sin; rose from the dead on the third day; and sits at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between mankind and the Father.

That by His death on the cross, He made a perfect atonement for our sin; that through His death on the cross He provided grace for sinful man, which is why Jesus Christ is the ONLY path through which man can, of his own free will, have eternal life with God.

That through His resurrection on the third day, our Lord Jesus Christ defeated death, once and for all, and made redemption available to ALL who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

That all who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior become children of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ, and will live eternally in the presence of God..

That the Holy Spirit indwells and seals all born-again believers at the time of their conversion and that this is a once-for-eternity event.

That heaven and hell are real places and these are the ONLY two choices man has for his eternal home. Your choice must be made before this life is finished. There is no second chance after leaving this life.

That everyone will face judgment before Jesus Christ. The believer to a judgment of eternal rewards; the non-believer to a judgment of eternal punishment in hell, the lake of fire.

A Christian church will believe and teach these Essential Biblical Beliefs. To the degree that a church differs from these teaching; to that degree it is not a Christian church.

And, your article tells us, ". . .even though some fundamentalists had been accused by their critics for doing the same (esp. embracing doctrines such as dispensationalism, "King James Only"-ism, the rapture, Christian Reconstructionism, etc. that critics argue have no biblical basis)."

This article was very obviously written by a Liberal Theology proponent who follows non-dispensationalist views, i.e, Amillennialist or Postmillennialist views. Amillennialist believe there is no future kingdom of God on earth and no Tribulation, that we are living in the millennium now and that the prophecies of Revelation happened in 70 AD.

Postmillennialist believe there will be a Tribulation and a millennium kingdom of God on earth -- but, that Jesus will supervise it from heaven and will not sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem. Both believe that Christ will return just in time to take believers into eternity. In other words, they deny the Pretribulational Rapture and the Premillennial Return of Jesus Christ -- which are clearly defined in the Bible.

But, this does not mean that they are not Christian churches and that their followers are not Christian believers. It is just that they refuse to accept the Bible as being the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God.

They allegorize or spiritualize the Bible to make if fit their choice of theology; one of which is Replacement Theology -- the teaching that the Christian church has replaced Israel as the chosen people of God. They say that the church is the "spiritual" chosen people of God, replacing the "physical" chosen people of God, Israel. And, to make this theology fit -- they must "spiritualize" the Bible; for a literal reading of the Bible will refute this teaching.

Finally, B50, you ask, "Do you want to separate the believers in Christ by their denominations?"

No. I believe there is one church -- the body of believers which began on the Day of Pentecost. Over the centuries, men, wanting to follow their different beliefs, thoughts, i.e., their different Biblical interpretations -- and some to follow traditions -- have separated the body of believers into different churches, denominations, etc.

The first major change or split began with Constantine in 312 AD, when Emperor Constantine had a battle field conversion and began to accept Christianity, which, until then had been persecuted by the Romans. He established his Christian church and to encourage his pagan subjects to participate in his new church, he allowed them to bring their pagan idols into the new church.

One of these was the mother/child, i.e., goddess/god, idol which the pagan nations adapted from the Semiramis/Horus (Tammuz) idol worship in the Babylonian Religions. The pagans brought this into Constantine's new church, renamed it Madonna/Child; then, later, Mary/Jesus, and began to worship it. Thus began the Church of Rome -- and the later adopted doctrine of Mariology.

In 1517, Martin Luther got the Protestant Reformation ball rolling with his 95 Theses, which declared:

* People can only win salvation by faith in God's forgiveness. The Church taught that faith, along with good works -- was needed for salvation.

* The Pope is a false authority. The Bible is the one true authority.

Thus began, in earnest, the Protestant Reformation. Later, King Henry VIII, wanting to divorce his wife, left the Roman Catholic church and formed the Church of England, and in 1531 was declared head of the church, i.e., he was now the titular pope of the Church of England. King Henry's Church of England was an exact copy of the Roman Catholic church -- except with a different leader. He declared the Church of England to be the state church of England and membership was mandatory.

Others, justifiably unhappy with King Henry's church, left and formed other churches and eventually the Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, etc. churches -- were growing.

The many denominations we have today are because some man, or group of men, did not agree with the Bible interpretation of others -- and left to form their own church -- teaching their interpretation of the Bible. There is no problem with this -- as long as these churches still believe and teach the Essential Biblical Beliefs. For, our salvation is found only, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- and, if a person believes and puts his/her faith in Jesus Christ -- he/she will believe the Essential Biblical Beliefs.

However, there are many churches which have adopted beliefs and teaching which are unBiblical, heretical, and this becomes a cult church. One of these is the Universalist Unitarian church which teaches that all people will go to heaven, i.e., universalism, and that all world religions should worship together in the same sanctuary with Christians, each worshiping his own god or gods.

There are many others, i.e, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Science, etc. -- which are also cult churches because they teach unBiblical false doctrines.

My personal choice and desire is that all Christian believers should return to the teachings and the fellowship which began on the Day of Pentecost. Forget the names of the churches, or the denominations -- let's all agree on the Essential Biblical Beliefs -- agree to disagree on other issues, but not allow this to foster division over our non-essential differences. We should discuss these differences, learn from them, mature in our knowledge of God's Word -- and all be Christian brothers and sisters.

I have often quoted the beautiful Gospel song, "It's Not What's Over The Door" -- for I believe this with all my heart. The chorus goes like this: "It's not what's over the door of the church that you attend, that makes you a child of God, and a heavenly citizen. As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er, there's just one thing He's lookin' for -- can't you see, that's what's in your heart -- and not what's over the door."

Can you imagine the Christian fellowship which would be born -- if we all believed and followed the words of this song?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
However, there are many churches which have adopted beliefs and teaching which are unBiblical, heretical, and this becomes a cult church. One of these is the Universalist Unitarian church which teaches that all people will go to heaven, i.e., universalism, and that all world religions should worship together in the same sanctuary with Christians, each worshiping his own god or gods.

There are many others, i.e, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Science, etc. -- which are also cult churches because they teach unBiblical false doctrines

See Bill, these type of statements are what turn many of these readers off. It sounds like someone died and appointed you God and judge for all religious beliefs.
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The Gospel: Our Lord Jesus Christ was supernaturally conceived, born of the virgin, Mary; died on the cross for our sin; rose from the dead on the third day; and sits at the right hand of God the Father as the ONLY mediator between mankind and the Father.


This is about the only thing I can agree with you on, the rest is nothing more than carnal trash and doctrines of demons.

quote:
They allegorize or spiritualize the Bible to make if fit their choice of theology; one of which is Replacement Theology -- the teaching that the Christian church has replaced Israel as the chosen people of God. They say that the church is the "spiritual" chosen people of God, replacing the "physical" chosen people of God, Israel. And, to make this theology fit -- they must "spiritualize" the Bible; for a literal reading of the Bible will refute this teaching.


How do you not "spiritualize" words of spirit?

Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

How do you just outright ignore that Jesus only taught in parables? Do you even know what a parable is? A parable is an "fictitious narrative" meant to convey a higher SPIRITUAL message. Jesus taught in parables so that people would not understand, obviously is has done to you what Jesus intended, considering the carnal junk you teach.

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (discerned).

gdriggs
quote:
There are many others, i.e, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, Christian Science, etc. -- which are also cult churches because they teach unBiblical false doctrines



And your little cult church teaches that the bible is "inerrant, literal Word of God" despite there being nothing in the bible that states that. How is yours different, Bill?

Hint: It's not.
quote:
Later, King Henry VIII, wanting to divorce his wife, left the Roman Catholic church and formed the Church of England, and in 1531 was declared head of the church, i.e., he was now the titular pope of the Church of England


AND HERE, inlies the whole story. Henry wanted to divorce his wife,which was forbidden in the Catholic church, so hmm...I'll start my own church and make my own rules.
This Protestant Reformation BEGAN because someone didn't want to "follow the rules".
So from there, a zillion different denominations were spawned, each with its own doctrines, to appeal to a certain population.

By the way, Bill Gray, you are the only divider on here- you are the only one that claims you have it "right". Kinda ironic that you started this post. Hey- why not go answer the question you've been ignoring for 2 weeks.
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Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Later, King Henry VIII, wanting to divorce his wife, left the Roman Catholic church and formed the Church of England, and in 1531 was declared head of the church, i.e., he was now the titular pope of the Church of England

AND HERE, inlies the whole story. Henry wanted to divorce his wife,which was forbidden in the Catholic church, so hmm...I'll start my own church and make my own rules.
This Protestant Reformation BEGAN because someone didn't want to "follow the rules".
So from there, a zillion different denominations were spawned, each with its own doctrines, to appeal to a certain population.

Hi VP,

Not that I mean to burst your bubble -- but Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation -- NOT King Henry VIII.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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but Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation -- NOT King Henry VIII.


Correct- my error.
BUT the end result is the same. One person didn't like the rules, thus creating big divides and spawning new denominations.
So ML didn't care for the Pope, and Henry didn't want to stay married.
Thus, the churches started to spinoff in every which way.
They were divided then, as they remain today.
Christian believers are separated because they don't abide by the same doctrines.
While we may agree on a few basics (Jesus is King, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father), I do believe that is where our commonalities end.
Sea Bill Gray:

quote:
My personal choice and desire is that all Christian believers should return to the teachings and the fellowship which began on the Day of Pentecost. Forget the names of the churches, or the denominations -- let's all agree on the Essential Biblical Beliefs -- agree to disagree on other issues, but not allow this to foster division over our non-essential differences. We should discuss these differences, learn from them, mature in our knowledge of God's Word -- and all be Christian brothers and sisters.


I would remind you, Bill, that on that Day of Pentecost,that starting point you purport to endorse, there were many who heard Peter indict them for crucifying Jesus. Those guilt-laden people cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter did not tell those people what YOU would tell them, Bill.

You would tell them just to believe in Jesus and take Him as your personal Savior and you would tell them that baptism is in no way instrumental in salvation. You would tell them that one who believes baptism is necessary for remission of sins (as Peter clearly taught!)is relying on "works" instead of faith. And, as always, you would be wrong and you would not be following the Word of God as it relates to the salvation of lost sinners as preached by Peter on that Day of Pentecost.

Peter knew that baptism is in no way a work of merit. Peter also knew that baptism is the event that God, in His wisdom, has ordained as the time and place when the penitent sinner comes into contact with the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ and is cleansed of his sins and rises to walk in newness of life. Romans 6: 3-5, clearly sets forth this great truth, but all too many have embraced a bogus concept of salvation that erroneously relegates baptism to the status of a "work," and then compounds the error by dismissing baptism from having any part in salvation because good works do not earn salvation.

But baptism is nowhere in the New Testament characterized as a work of merit. The WORK done in baptism is God's work of cleansing the sinful soul. The person baptized is simply obeying the same inspired instruction as that given by Peter to those 3000 lost souls seeking redemption.

For the first 1500 years or so following that Day of Pentecost, the church held that baptism was for remission of sins. Along came the Calvinists and their fellow travellers and, revolting against the dictates of the Catholic Church (which indeed promoted many aspects of a works salvation), swung the pendulum far to the other side of error and declared a Biblically erroneous version of "faith alone" that excommunicated baptism from its Biblical place in the scheme of redemption!

So go back to that Day of Pentecost, Bill, but bring forward the great truth preached there by that great apostle, who, with cloven tongues of fire testifying to the favor of his Lord, answered that question from the lips of lost men and told them to, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, FOR REMISSION OF SINS...." Tell them what Peter told those lost and dying Pentecostians, not the latter-day cheapened gospel that Satan has so successfully propagated and that you and many others have unfortunately embraced!!

"And now, why tarryest thou? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
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Originally posted by b50m:
Bill, while I was your 'inspiration' again, I could not comment after you turned Mary and Jesus into pagan idol worship. Sad Bill.

Hi B,

I did not turn Mary and Jesus into anything. She is still the blessed lady who was chosen by God as the womb through which He would give us the incarnate God, Jesus Christ. What I said was in no was disrespectful to either.

But, if you will research Semiramis/Tammuz, you will find that Semiramis, who was the wife of Nimrod, created this religion of the mother/child (goddess/god) when Nimrod died and she was worried that she would lose the exalted position given her as the wife of the ruler Nimrod.

So, when Nimrod died, she began the religion that Nimrod was the sun god and that the child she was carrying was going to be Nimrod reincarnated. When Tammuz was born; she instigated the religion of mother/child so that she could still rule.

That Babylonian Religion was taken to many countries, each having it own name for the mother/child.

When Constantine converted to Christianity, it is history that he encouraged his subjects to come to his church by allowing them to bring their idols into this church. But, instead of the pagan name; they did rename the idol Madonna/Child, which later became Mary/Jesus and led to the later doctrine of Mariology in the Roman Catholic church.

This is information you can find for yourself; so, please do not get upset with me for sharing it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
Constantine's church,

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Originally posted by vplee123:
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but Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation -- NOT King Henry VIII.

Correct- my error. BUT the end result is the same. One person didn't like the rules, thus creating big divides and spawning new denominations. So ML didn't care for the Pope, and Henry didn't want to stay married.
Thus, the churches started to spinoff in every which way. They were divided then, as they remain today. Christian believers are separated because they don't abide by the same doctrines.
While we may agree on a few basics (Jesus is King, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father), I do believe that is where our commonalities end.

Hi VP,

That is what I wrote; that the different denominations exist because a man or a group of men interpreted the Bible differently and started their own church.

This is not saying that these churches are not Christian -- only that they have different beliefs about parts of the Bible.

As long as they adhere to the Essential Biblical Beliefs -- they are Christian.

But, if they begin to teach heretical doctrine, i.e, Jesus is not deity, etc. -- then, they are a cult church.

All the churches today, including the Roman Catholic, are spin-offs from the original church begun on the Day of Pentecost.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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All the churches today, including the Roman Catholic, are spin-offs from the original church begun on the Day of Pentecost.


No, that's not really true. The original Church is the universal, apostolic, catholic church. Founded on Peter, Instituted by Christ.
But you and I will never agree on that....
Anyway, you have still ignored my question, so I feel confident in that you do not have an answer. Which furthers my confidence in my church. So thanks! Smiler
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Originally posted by prince albert:
Bill you have quoted this so many times to me I know what you are going to respond to beternu

Eph 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. by Faith nothing more nothing less.

I still don't believe it though Bill.

Hi Albert,

First, I have no intention of responding to Beter -- for he/she is only on the Forum to argue; and, I do not like to argue. It is senseless.

On the other hand, there are many, like yourself, who are here to have discussions -- and that interests me.

Regarding your comment on Ephesians 2:8-9; you say you do not believe it. Are you saying that the Bible is lying; that it tells us an untruth?

If so, since God authored the Bible; you are saying that God is lying to us. Now, you and I both know that you do not believe this.

So, how do you explain that you can say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true; yet God, the author, has not lied?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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So, how do you explain that you can say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true; yet God, the author, has not lied?


Because there are so many more passages of Scripture that tell us WHAT TO DO. That certain things are necessary to enter into the narrow door of Heaven.
Without works, faith is dead.
Not all who say to me Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom
the Beatitudes?
Big picture, Bill...look at the BIG PICTURE.
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Originally posted by vplee123:
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Albert, Regarding your comment on Ephesians 2:8-9; you say you do not believe it. Are you saying that the Bible is lying; that it tells us an untruth? If so, since God authored the Bible; you are saying that God is lying to us. Now, you and I both know that you do not believe this. So, how do you explain that you can say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true; yet God, the author, has not lied?

Because there are so many more passages of Scripture that tell us WHAT TO DO. That certain things are necessary to enter into the narrow door of Heaven. Without works, faith is dead.

Hi VP,

Very true, that faith without works is dead; James tells us this -- and it is true. Yet, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, it tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

VP, what does it mean when it says: "by grace you have been saved through faith"?

What does it mean when it says: "it is the gift of God"?

What does it mean when it says: "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS"?

VP, what is God telling us in these parts of Scripture?

Then, we consider the commission Jesus left for all believers: Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them (Matthew 28:19-20) -- Be My witnesses to the whole world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

And, we put James 2:26 with this -- that faith without works is dead -- and you get the full picture of our salvation and our responsibility once we have been given that "free gift" of salvation.

Our work, the fruit of our salvation -- is that we spend the rest of this mortal life sowing seeds of salvation, sharing the Word of God with the unsaved world, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the lost and hurting. This is the work, the fruit, which will make our faith vibrant and alive.

And, then we put the promise of Jesus Christ with this: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).

That, my Friend, is the whole picture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Our work, the fruit of our salvation -- is that we spend the rest of this mortal life sowing seeds of salvation, sharing the Word of God with the unsaved world, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the lost and hurting. This is the work, the fruit, which will make our faith vibrant and alive.


Nope, still not enough.
We are to be Christ to one another- feed the hungry, clothe the naked,etc.
Whatsoever we do to the least of my people, that you do unto me......remember that one?
God calls us to do more than spread the Gospel. MUCH MUCH MORE!

And once again, Satan also believes. So saying that all it takes for salvation is to believe is completely out of context.
Bill,...So IF I believed....I would be saved?..no repent,no baptism, I could bypass all that Jesus stuff,no holy ghost? Cool. Now if I could just believe I could start berating those atheist and their false teachings you are so keen on.

As a practicing agnostic/atheist I don't remember trying to TEACH anything. I merely state my opinion. WE don't have a bible of false teaching to pull false scripture out of. Our belief is truely based on faith. It's just that our faith is different than yours.

Does it bother you just a little that I refer to your Bible as false teaching? That is precisely what you do when you refer to people of our belief, or lack thereof as you see it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Our work, the fruit of our salvation -- is that we spend the rest of this mortal life sowing seeds of salvation, sharing the Word of God with the unsaved world, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the lost and hurting. This is the work, the fruit, which will make our faith vibrant and alive.

Bill


Scriptures disagree with you once again Mr. Gray.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

What greater commission is there than this?

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 2:3 For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus will accomplish what the Father has commissioned Him to do, that is to save sinners? If all have sinned, who is left out? I do not expect you to answer this because I dont think you have the guts to say He will not save the world in light of these Scriptures, or you will present other Scriptures which you believe CONTRADICTS those Scriptures. Remember, Gods Word does NOT contradict? You are totally unable to believe God is that good, and you do not posses the TRUE fruits of the Spirit or else you would believe God truly is Love. To say most of humanity will burn in hell "for ever and ever" is NOT love, it is hate, pure and simple.

gdriggs
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Originally posted by gdriggs:
Mr. Gray, do you believe Jesus will accomplish what the Father has commissioned Him to do, that is to save sinners? If all have sinned, who is left out?

Hi Riggs

No one is left out. God has excluded no one. Jesus Christ died for the sins of all the world.

However, God gave us the gift of "free will" -- so, we MUST choose to follow Jesus Christ or to deny Him.

All who choose to follow Him will have eternal life with God.

All who choose to deny Him will have eternal life in hell with Satan.

So, it is not as your Universalist Unitarian cult church teaches -- universal salvation for all. That would negate His gift of "free will" -- and God never gives a gift and then takes it back.

Riggs, even you, if you will choose to follow Jesus Christ instead of a cult church -- can be assured of eternal life with God. Give it a try; you will be eternally happy that you did.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by leo:
Bill,...So IF I believed....I would be saved?..no repent,no baptism, I could bypass all that Jesus stuff,no holy ghost? Cool. Now if I could just believe I could start berating those atheist and their false teachings you are so keen on.

As a practicing agnostic/atheist I don't remember trying to TEACH anything. I merely state my opinion. WE don't have a bible of false teaching to pull false scripture out of. Our belief is truely based on faith. It's just that our faith is different than yours.

Does it bother you just a little that I refer to your Bible as false teaching? That is precisely what you do when you refer to people of our belief, or lack thereof as you see it.

Hi Leo,

You walk the path you choose and God help you. But, if you ever admit, to yourself, the futility of your chosen lifestyle and want to find true peace, peace with God; let me know. I will be happy to help you find the WAY.

Until then, talk all the trash you want. You are only hurting yourself. I know my God, I have peace knowing that I do have eternal salvation with Him. I would love to see you have that same eternal security.

However, you will have to stop closing your mind and your heart to God. Let me know if you ever change. We can talk on the forum or in private; your choice.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Our work, the fruit of our salvation -- is that we spend the rest of this mortal life sowing seeds of salvation, sharing the Word of God with the unsaved world, sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the lost and hurting. This is the work, the fruit, which will make our faith vibrant and alive.

Nope, still not enough. We are to be Christ to one another- feed the hungry, clothe the naked,etc. Whatsoever we do to the least of my people, that you do unto me......remember that one? God calls us to do more than spread the Gospel. MUCH MUCH MORE!

Hi VP,

Just curious. How will YOU know when you have done ENOUGH WORKS to gain admittance into heaven?

How do you measure your works to know when you will have enough in the bank for salvation?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
Bill you have quoted this so many times to me I know what you are going to respond to beternu

Eph 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. by Faith nothing more nothing less.

I still don't believe it though Bill.

Hi Albert,

First, I have no intention of responding to Beter -- for he/she is only on the Forum to argue; and, I do not like to argue. It is senseless.

On the other hand, there are many, like yourself, who are here to have discussions -- and that interests me.

Regarding your comment on Ephesians 2:8-9; you say you do not believe it. Are you saying that the Bible is lying; that it tells us an untruth?

If so, since God authored the Bible; you are saying that God is lying to us. Now, you and I both know that you do not believe this.

So, how do you explain that you can say that Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true; yet God, the author, has not lied?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


This truly is laughable, Bill, this business of repeatedly slinking away from the discussion because you are not one to "argue." What you have done here is to devise an artificial and arbitrary system by which YOUR strongly-advanced positions on controversial matters are "discussion," but the positions that I might advance on the same issues are "arguments" and thus do not qualify to receive a response from you. The transparency of your little strategic device is apparent, Bill. It is, in fact, a strategic retreat from a challenge that you can not rise to. Thus you tuck tail and run, covering your cowardly rear with a flimsy, inadequate little word game that leaves your polemic inadequacy fully exposed.

As to Prince Albert--what he evidently means in what he posted is not that he disputes the truth of Ephesians 2: 8-9, but that he disputes the way you selectively apply it to contend for your narrow version of "faith only" that leaves out baptism as an element of the faith response. From previous posts, it is clear that P.A. respects the authority of scripture and would not pick and choose which passages to accept and which to reject.
quote:
Hi VP,

Just curious. How will YOU know when you have done ENOUGH WORKS to gain admittance into heaven?

How do you measure your works to know when you will have enough in the bank for salvation?


I am feeling a little deja vu, Bill.
We've had this conversation.
But, I will tell you again- I will NEVER be worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
All I can do is be the best, most charitable and humble person while I'm here. Receive the Eucharist, Pray for Mercy, keep a contrite heart, and try avoiding occasions that lead me to sin. I take care of my lesser bretheren, and treat my fellow peeps with compassion and dignity.
That's all I can do.
And still, it is not enough...So I rely on God's mercy and grace.
quote:
retreat from a challenge that you can not rise to


And another thing, is that I have the humility to accept and recant/apologize if I made an error. And I don't presume to understand all the mysteries of God.
Like beternu, I am very disappointed in your cowering away from questions that you cannot answer. You call yourself a teacher- a minister of sorts, yet you shy away when caught "in a corner". If one is truly interested in fellowship and honest dialogue, one would not evade direct questions repeatedly. It does not bode well for one's credibility. You can learn from other people, Bill. You don't have to be the one always doing the "correcting".
Hi VP,

You say that I duck questions. Yet, YOU still have not responded to my questions:

Yet, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, it tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

VP, what does it mean when it says: "by grace you have been saved through faith"?

What does it mean when it says: "it is the gift of God"?

What does it mean when it says: "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS"?

VP, what is God telling us in these parts of Scripture?


I will make you a deal. If you will honestly answers these questions now -- I promise I will answer your question about the person dying while committing a sin.

Deal? We shall see.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP,

You say that I duck questions. Yet, YOU still have not responded to my questions:

Yet, when you read Ephesians 2:8-9, it tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God -- NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

VP, what does it mean when it says: "by grace you have been saved through faith"?

What does it mean when it says: "it is the gift of God"?

What does it mean when it says: "NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS"?

VP, what is God telling us in these parts of Scripture?


I will make you a deal. If you will honestly answers these questions now -- I promise I will answer your question about the person dying while committing a sin.

Deal? We shall see.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi VP,

Now that recess and playground time is over for me and O No; would you like to take a shot at these questions?

Then, I promise to answer your question.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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