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Should We All Worship The Same Way?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Should all Christians worship as we do in the Baptist churches? Should all Christians worship as they do in Pentecostal churches? Should all Christian churches have bishops and priests who wear robes and lead in liturgical rituals? Should all churches sing hymns -- or is it okay to sing praise songs and choruses -- or should all Christian churches ban all music as some do?

I know, you think I am being silly. No, what I am really saying is that HOW we worship God is not as important as -- THAT we worship God. What makes one person feel close to God -- is not necessarily what makes another feel close to God. If being very active in singing and dancing during worship is your thing -- by all means, sing and dance -- just keep worshiping God. If being quiet and absorbing the feelings put in your heart by the Holy Spirit is your choice of worship -- by all means, quietly worship our Lord.

And, if singing is your thing -- sing out to the Lord with gusto. But, don't demand everyone else share your gusto about the music.

If we all had identical taste in things -- there would be ONE wife in the world and all men would be married to her. A silly statement, yes, I agree. But, no sillier than demanding that MY way of worship is the only way.

My Friend, the main issue in Christianity is that everyone possible be a Christian believer; that all who will believe and receive the free gift of salvation -- will be eternally saved. We are not saved by the robes our clergy wears, nor by the music in our church, nor by any traditions or rituals; we are not saved because of the church we attend. We are saved, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING else. All the rest becomes merely condiments on our plate of salvation.

If you agree, please feel free to share this dialogue with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let's keep sharing God Word; let's keep sharing the Gospel; let's keep reaching out to the unchurched, the non-believers -- while there is time. One day, maybe very soon -- He will return to gather His church to heaven. Then, those we do not reach now -- will be left behind to suffer in the Tribulation. Do not let that happen to any of your FRANs.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi VP,

In an earlier post, I wrote, "Not to be disrespectful; but the Stations of The Cross are only delineated in Roman Catholic Traditions and Catechisms. They are exclusively Roman Catholic tradition."

And, you respond, "Mr. Gray? Could you please clarify so that the nice people at home can be clear on this? You do now see that you were mistaken, right? Stations is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, and is taken directly from the Gospels. Do you agree with that statement?"

My answer to your question has to be an unequivocal NO -- I do not agree with your statement. Why? Since you seem to want to push the issue, I will explain. But, first, let me state as clearly as I can. If praying the Stations Of The Cross makes you feel closer to God, closer to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- then, by all means -- do it. Just as I do not speak in tongues, but do not denigrates those who feel closer to God through this exercise -- I will not denigrate those who feel a need to pray the Stations Of The Cross.

Although I am not anti-Catholic and do not want to be seen as Roman Catholic bashing -- I will say that the Stations Of The Cross are a Roman Catholic "Tradition" and, although they are written around portions of the Gospel -- are not truly Biblical. I will explain this later in my post.

So, yes, I will be happy to respond. First, let's look at what three Roman Catholic web sites, plus the Wikipedia web site, have to say about the Stations Of The Cross:

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Stations of the Cross
http://www.archdioceseofanchor...worship/Stations.htm

From the earliest of days, followers of Jesus told the story of his passion, death and resurrection. When pilgrims came to see Jerusalem, they were anxious to see the sites where Jesus was. These sites become important holy connections with Jesus. Eventually, following in the footsteps of the Lord, along the way of the cross, became a part of the pilgrimage visit. The stations, as we know them today, came about when it was no longer easy or even possible to visit the holy sites. In the 1500's, villages all over Europe started creating "replicas" of the way of the cross, with small shrines commemorating the places along the route in Jerusalem. Eventually, these shrines became the set of 14 stations we now know and were placed in almost every Catholic Church in the world.

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History of the Stations of the Cross
http://communityofhopeinc.com/...thecross/History.htm

The Stations of the Cross are a Catholic devotion which commemorates the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Each of the fourteen stations represents an event which occurred during Jesus' Passion and death at Calvary on Good Friday.

The Stations were originally performed many centuries ago by Christian pilgrims who visited the Holy Land and the sites of Jesus' Passion. Promotion of the devotion to the Stations began in earnest with the Franciscans, who were given custody of the Holy Places in the Holy Land in the 1300s. Countless Catholics have all enriched their spiritual lives with this powerful devotion.

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About The Stations Of The Cross
http://www.ixeh.net/faith/Stations/via-info.html

For Roman Catholics throughout the world, the Stations of the Cross are synonymous with Lent, Holy Week and, especially, Good Friday. This devotion is also known as the "Way of the Cross", the "Via Crucis", and the "Via Dolorosa." It commemorates 14 key events on day of Christ's crucifixion. The majority concern His final walk through the streets of Jerusalem, carrying the Cross.

The Stations originated in medieval Europe when wars prevented Christian pilgrims from visiting the Holy Land. European artists created works depicting scenes of Christ's journey to Calvary. The faithful installed these sculptures or paintings at intervals along a procession route, inside the parish church or outdoors. Performing the devotion meant walking the entire route, stopping to pray at each "station."

Today, images of the Stations (or simple crosses representing them) are on display in almost all Catholic churches. They serve mainly as a focus for Lenten worship services. But the Stations can also be performed privately, at any time of the year, even at home. Many organizations offer free or inexpensive, illustrated pamphlets for this purpose.

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Stations of the Cross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross

Stations of the Cross (or Way of the Cross; in Latin, Via Crucis; also called the Via Dolorosa or Way of Sorrows, or simply, The Way) refers to the depiction of the final hours (or Passion) of Jesus, and the devotion commemorating the Passion. The tradition as chapel devotion began with St. Francis of Assisi and extended throughout the Roman Catholic Church in the medieval period. It is less often observed in the Anglican and Lutheran churches. It may be done at any time, but is most commonly done during the Season of Lent, especially on Good Friday and on Friday evenings during Lent.

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Now, why do I say that the Stations Of The Cross are not Biblical? First, let's look at the TWO versions of the Ten Commandments -- the Ten Commandments written in the Bible -- and the Ten Commandments written in Roman Catholic Tradition:

The Bible Ten Commandments Found in Exodus 20:2-17 (NKJV)
http://www.10commandments.biz/...en-commandments.html

1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

2. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3. “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5. “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6. “You shall not murder.

7. “You shall not commit adultery.

8. “You shall not steal.

9. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

AND The Roman Catholic Version:

The Ten Commandments -- Roman Catholic Tradition Version
http://www.10commandments.biz/...en-commandments.html

1. I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange gods before me.

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

10. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods.

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You will notice that, the Bible list found in Exodus 20 shows the 2nd Commandment to be: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

Yet, to accommodate the Roman Catholic icons such as the images found in the Stations Of The Cross -- the original 2nd Commandment was eliminated.

And, to complete the list of ten -- Roman Catholics split the 10th Commandment found in Exodus into two separate commandments, i.e, “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's” -- in Roman Catholic Tradition became: 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife -- and, 10. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods.

Thus Roman Catholic Tradition eliminated the 2nd Commandment written by God in Exodus -- to accommodate their Tradition. And then, to make the list of Ten Commandments complete again -- divided the 10th Commandment.

This is why I say that, although we do celebrate what Jesus Christ did through His virgin birth, His very cruel crucifixion, His resurrection, and His ascension to be our Sole Mediator in heaven -- we Protestants do not celebrate the Stations Of The Cross because they are not Biblical.

And we recognize the teaching of Sola Scriptura (By Scripture Alone). Scripture, the Bible, is our sole source of teaching from God. The Bible is the only infallible and inerrant authority for Christian faith, and it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. In other words, since God has given us His Written Word, the Bible, we need no other traditions nor rituals to lead us to eternal salvation in Him.

VP, I pray that I have sufficiently answered your question regarding the Protestant view of the Stations Of The Cross. And, I pray that you do recognize that I am not doing any Roman Catholic bashing when I explain our Protestant view of this issue.

As I have many times stated -- ANYONE -- EVERYONE (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) who is born again (John 3:3) and by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) believes, and receives His "free gift" of salvation -- is a Christian believer and does indeed HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, eternal security in Jesus Christ. Salvation is not only for Protestants -- but, for ALL who will believe and receive (John 1:12) His FREE GIFT of salvation.

If you have done this, we are Christian brothers. If not, I sincerely pray that you will consider doing it today, right now -- while there is still time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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O No!O No!Old Faithful
Bill won't acknowledge anyone who points out when he is wrong. When I first joined this forum, I though he was a Godly man. Now I realize that he is an egomaniac. He has chosen to completely ignore me when I tried to have a discussion with him, simply because I proved him wrong and he can not accept being wrong. Rather than admitting he was wrong and having meaninful discussion about the issue, he has chosen to pretend I do not exist.

Bill, it is MY belief that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is not about common swearing, but about using God's name to promote an agenda, or to mislead others. You are taking His name in vain just about every day from what I've been reading lately. I am still praying for you, for both your sake, and the sake of those whom you are trying to mislead.
FM Former Member
quote:
Now, why do I say that the Stations Of The Cross are not Biblical? First, let's look at the TWO versions of the Ten Commandments -- the Ten Commandments written in the Bible -- and the Ten Commandments written in Roman Catholic Tradition:


You are unbelievable. The 10 Commandments can also be found in the Catholic version of the BIBLE. not the tradition, not the Catechism, CATHOLICS READ THE BIBLE TOO!!!!!!!!!and guess what? it's thicker. thats right. THICKER. even more stuff!
4 more books!
Who do you think you are???!?!?!?!? You are a very scary person, because you think you have authority and knowledge. I really hope people can see through your ridiculousness, because you are DEAD WRONG. Your Baptist brother pointed out that he did Stations. It is in the Gospels. WHY are you so against the Catholic Church? You almost sound like one of the kids who was sent to Catholic School and everybody made fun of cuz they looked fat in plaid, so now you're lashing out against the Catholic Church. HAHA!
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by btchpls50m:
Mr. Gray, Perhaps it would help if you read here.

Hi BT,

The article makes a good point -- that it is not the actual statues being worshiped -- but, the dead saints which the statues represent. However, how does this explain seeing people actually kissing the statues and kneeling before them in prayer? And, how can a person who has been long dead do anything to help us in this life. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God -- so, He is the one we should be petitioning for blessings and help.

True, many Protestant Christians have pictures of Jesus Christ in their homes. However, I have never seen anyone bowing before that picture, nor kissing the picture, nor building a shrine around the picture -- as I have with around the statues of so many Roman Catholic saints in many homes. That is the type I worship I mean -- where special altars are built, special actions of worship done in front of or to these statues, which represent long dead Roman Catholic who have been designated as saints.

In actuality, the Bible tells us that all Christian believers are saints; no one is chosen to be "special saints." Many will have more rewards in heaven than me -- but, no one is more of saint or less of a saint than me. We, all Christian believers -- are saints; according to the Bible.

And, the carvings, statues, etc., which represent the Stations Of The Cross -- we typically see worshipers bowing in front of them, kissing them, etc. -- in other words, forms of worship before carved images.

No one knows what Jesus Christ looked like; only that He was a Jew from Galilee. So, He most likely would have been brown skinned, with black hair, and most likely would have had facial hair as most men did in that time and place.

Artists have tried to paint a likeness of Him; but, this only comes from the minds of the artists. No one has been given any special revelation about the physical looks of Jesus Christ. The only description given in the Bible of Jesus is found in Revelation 1:13-16 -- and that hardly matches any of the paintings we see today.

That said, do I have reproductions of painting of Jesus Christ in my home? Yes. I have several which I enjoy looking at -- and I often wonder what He really looked like during His earthly ministry. But, I do not worship the painting, nor do I kiss the painting, nor do I think it has ANY special powers. It is merely a painting. Just as the photos of my wife, children, and grandchildren are merely photos -- even though I also enjoy very much looking at them.

And, why did the Roman Catholic church feel the necessity to modify the Ten Commandments -- removing the 2nd Commandment from the Biblical version found in Exodus 20?

BT, thank you for your participation in this discussion. When we have good discussions, civil discussions, we all can learn and benefit from them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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FM Former Member
quote:
And, how can a person who has been long dead do anything to help us in this life.


Well, Sir, because they died with Christ, they share in His Ressurection of course. They shall live forever! Smiler Isn't that what we're all hoping for? They're enjoying their eternal reward- life everlasting in the presence God the Father. Goodness! Jesus died so that we may live forever! How can you say they are "long dead"? I just don't get it.........
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi VP,

In my post, I wrote, "Now, why do I say that the Stations Of The Cross are not Biblical? First, let's look at the TWO versions of the Ten Commandments -- the Ten Commandments written in the Bible -- and the Ten Commandments written in Roman Catholic Tradition."

And, you respond, "You are unbelievable, The 10 Commandments can also be found in the Catholic version of the BIBLE. not the tradition, not the Catechism, CATHOLICS READ THE BIBLE TOO!!!!!!!!!and guess what? it's thicker. thats right. THICKER. even more stuff! 4 more books!"

Actually, VP, there are SEVEN more books in the Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB): Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch. This is from my Roman Catholic NAB Bible, published 1970 by the Catholic Press, and with Imprimatur by Cardinal Patrick O'Boyle, July 27, 1970.

And, my Roman Catholic NAB Bible does indeed read:

Exodus 20:1, Then God delivered all these commandments: Exodus 20:2-3, "I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. Exodus 20:4, You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; Exodus 20:5, you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; Exodus 20:6, but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Then, it has the footnote: [1-17] The precise division of these precepts into "ten commandments" is somewhat uncertain. Traditionally among Catholics Exodus 20:1-6 is considered as only one commandment, and Exodus 20:17 as two.

Why walk past the 2nd Commandment and then create two new ones with verse 17? If one is to make new commandments from verse 17; why stop at two?

Exodus 20:17 (nab), "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ass, nor anything else that belongs to him."

Using the RC justification; I can create FIVE commandments from verse 17; so, why stop with just TWO? Because, after removing the 2nd Commandment -- they only needed to add one more to cover that deletion which make it a sin to have their carved images.

Then, you tell me, "Who do you think you are?? You are a very scary person, because you think you have authority and knowledge. I really hope people can see through your ridiculousness, because you are DEAD WRONG."

VP, shouldn't just say, "You are wrong!!!" If you are to be credible, you must say, "You are wrong because. . . " -- and then give actual proof of where I made a mistake. So far, all you have done is rant -- but, you have given no solid rebuttal.

Next, you say, "Your Baptist brother pointed out that he did Stations."

Hey, I did it too, before I was a Christian believer. I attended the Baptist church in Sheffield as a young boy -- and, since then, in many parts of America I have attended Baptist churches. And, in between, I attended many Roman Catholic churches -- and took Catechism classes in several. But, since 1987, I have been a Christian believer in Baptist churches in Southern California. I have never seen the Stations Of The Cross in ANY Baptist church.

As a matter of fact, you will not even find a picture of Jesus hanging in any Baptist churches. In 1992, when my mom was in the Helen Keller hospital, she wanted a picture of Jesus. I drove around Sheffield, Tuscumbia, Muscle Shoals, and Florence -- to all the Christian book stores I could find. And not one had a picture of Jesus Christ. Why? Because most Protestants, especially Baptists -- consider even this, merely a copy of a painting, to be an idol and condemned by the 2nd Commandment.

Finally, at Mars Hill Bible School in Florence, I found a packet of flip charts used to teach elementary school classes -- and the envelope holding the charts, on the front, had the perfect drawing, Jesus Christ emerging from the tomb in glory. I bought the packet of charts, used their paper cutter to cut the drawing from the envelope, gave her the charts to donate to a class -- and drove to a local store for a frame. Once done, I drove back to the hospital to give this to my mom. She died in 1994 -- but, I have that framed drawing hanging in my home office today.

I look at it often. Do I worship it? No. But, it reminds me very much of my mother and I am reminded that, before she died, she became a Christian believer. This is what this drawing of Jesus reminds me of daily -- my mom is in heaven with her Lord and Savior. And, one day, I will join them. I have His promise of this.

But, no, VP, you will NOT find the Stations Of The Cross in a Baptist church.

You tell me, "It is in the Gospels."

Then, please give me the specific Scripture passage which tells us about the Stations Of The Cross.

Finally, you ask, "WHY are you so against the Catholic Church? You almost sound like one of the kids who was sent to Catholic School and everybody made fun of cuz they looked fat in plaid, so now you're lashing out against the Catholic Church. HAHA!"

I am not against the Roman Catholic church nor Roman Catholics. However, I do believe the RC church has many misleading and wrong doctrines which it teaches to people. I believe that, if the RC people depend only upon their traditions, rituals, and catechisms -- they will have a hard time gaining salvation; for salvation is found only in the Word of God -- the Bible. The RC church relegates the Bible to second class authority -- with tradition and catechism trumping it in in all aspects of authority.

In other words, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (by Scripture Alone) is anathema in the RC church.

Did I ever attend a Roman Catholic school? No. But, many of my Sheffield High classmates did -- and they were much better students, academically and discipline-wise, that we who did not attend their elementary school. I give them credit, they were better at teaching kids than our secular elementary school. So, for proper teaching methods -- I give them an "A." But, for content of teaching, when it included RC catechism -- I give them an "F."

Over the years, I have had quite a lot of exposure to the Roman Catholic church. But, I am not blinded to its failures to teach true Christian doctrines.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Netracer41Netracer41Hall of Famer
Not only does it not matter how you worship God, it also does not matter which God you worship. There are many, many Gods and many paths to Salvation, Enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.
Mohamed is just as valid as Jesus, as is Krishna, Gaia, and all the rest.
All paths are equal and valid. The goal is to understand ones self and their interconnection that exists with all living things within the entire universe. Religions and prophets only serve to point towards the truth. None of them or their words ARE the truth. The truth is within you.
You can get much closer to Gods essence by taking a walk alone in the woods than you can reading any scripture or attending any church.
Just an idea, think it over for a day or two, and try that walk. Smiler
SK Sofa KingHall of Famer
quote:
God you worship. There are many, many Gods and many paths to Salvation, Enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.
Mohamed is just as valid as Jesus, as is Krishna, Gaia, and all the rest.
All paths are equal and valid.


You fool! Bill is going to send you to hell for saying that!!!

That said, I tend to agree even though I am a Christian (and I now await Bill's inevitable insistence that I will go to hell for even saying that). Since all religions can't all be THE way to salvation, it only makes sense that God would design His children to find their own way using their God-given ability to reason.

In my book, even the atheists who have used good reason to come to their disbelief and adhere to moral law will come before the Lord to account for their lives. My God of infinite mercy and love would not be the vengeful, spiteful hate-filled monster depicted by the HUMAN interpretations of Old Testament authors.
FM Former Member
quote:
Since all religions can't all be THE way to salvation, it only makes sense that God would design His children to find their own way using their God-given ability to reason.


Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No-one comes to the Father except through me".
Having said that, I agree with you. God is merciful. His mercy endures forever. Every man is created in His image- so I guess every man will stand before HIm in judgement.whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim..whatever. Hmmm....I wonder if this is a good time to bring up purgatory!? just kidding....
R rolltidequeenFamiliar Face
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Phillipians 2:10

"Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed." Joel 2:27
O No!O No!Old Faithful
Wow Bill. When I pointed out you were wrong and WHY you were wrong, you just decided to stop speaking to me altogether. And I guess you must have been inside of every Baptist church in the nation because you state with such authority that NO Baptit church does the stations of the cross. I GREW UP IN A BAPTIST CHURCH THAT DID THE STATIONS OF THE CROSS EVERY EASTER. And you state there are no pictures of Christ in any Baptist church. AGAIN, YOU ARE WRONG. I am starting to think that not only are you a misguided egomaniac, but I think you MAY be writing from a mental institution. There is something seriously wrong with you, and that wouldn't bother me except you are trying to mislead people about God. PLEASE, just stick to the message, "Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you will spend eternity in the presence of God". That is the ONLY thing you have gotten right.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:
Not only does it not matter how you worship God, it also does not matter which God you worship. There are many, many Gods and many paths to Salvation, Enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.
Mohamed is just as valid as Jesus, as is Krishna, Gaia, and all the rest.
All paths are equal and valid. The goal is to understand ones self and their interconnection that exists with all living things within the entire universe. Religions and prophets only serve to point towards the truth. None of them or their words ARE the truth. The truth is within you.
You can get much closer to Gods essence by taking a walk alone in the woods than you can reading any scripture or attending any church.
Just an idea, think it over for a day or two, and try that walk.

GOOD LUCK!

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
God you worship. There are many, many Gods and many paths to Salvation, Enlightenment, Nirvana, etc.
Mohamed is just as valid as Jesus, as is Krishna, Gaia, and all the rest.
All paths are equal and valid.

You fool! Bill is going to send you to hell for saying that!!!

That said, I tend to agree even though I am a Christian (and I now await Bill's inevitable insistence that I will go to hell for even saying that). Since all religions can't all be THE way to salvation, it only makes sense that God would design His children to find their own way using their God-given ability to reason.

In my book, even the atheists who have used good reason to come to their disbelief and adhere to moral law will come before the Lord to account for their lives. My God of infinite mercy and love would not be the vengeful, spiteful hate-filled monster depicted by the HUMAN interpretations of Old Testament authors.

AND YOU ATTEND WHICH CHURCH -- THE UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS?
GOOD LUCK!

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Netracer41Netracer41Hall of Famer
AND YOU ATTEND WHICH CHURCH -- THE UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS?

This church offers a much better choice than any you have ever given us. A t least the the UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS have compassion and are not so full of themselves they think they alone possess the one and only truth you Jimmy Swaggart wannabe!

There were people for many thousands of years before the teacher named Jesus came along. Jesus was a good teacher. In fact he "borrowed" many teachings from 2000 years before his birth by the Buddah, as his own. We have had many teachers over the centuries. Give them equal billing.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Netracer41:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
AND YOU ATTEND WHICH CHURCH -- THE UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS?

This church offers a much better choice than any you have ever given us. At least the the UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISTS have compassion and are not so full of themselves they think they alone possess the one and only truth you Jimmy Swaggart wannabe!

There were people for many thousands of years before the teacher named Jesus came along. Jesus was a good teacher. In fact he "borrowed" many teachings from 2000 years before his birth by the Buddah (sic), as his own. We have had many teachers over the centuries. Give them equal billing.

Hi Net,

The Unitarian Universalist church is a cult church -- not even close to being a Christian church. But, you are free to go there and worship any and all gods of your choice.

However, I will stay with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In case you do not recognize that -- it is a Scripture verse and can be found at John 1:1 -- in the Bible.

You might try to think on what this verse means, what it is telling us about Jesus Christ:

1. That Jesus existed "In the beginning" -- which means that when our world, our universe, was created -- He was already existing. It means that He is pre-existing. It means that He was, is, and always will be -- GOD!

2. "the Word was with God" -- confirms once again that Jesus was pre-existing with God the Father before any of our universe, including your Buddha, was created.

3. "and the Word was God" -- tells us that Jesus Christ is God, that He is deity. Actually, in the original Greek, this phrase is written "kai theos en ho logos" which literally reads: God was the Word.

Net, thank you for this opportunity to share about my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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SB Saddle BurnsSmall Talker
When did the foreknowledge, predestination, calling of the elect, justification, glorifying, of the sheep take place? When were the names of his inherited sheep written into the lambs book of life? What is God's will?

Rom.8

1. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
2. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph.1

1. [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
2. [11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Saddle Burns:
The question goes out to the whole world. It creates thought. Thoughts about words in the Bible that most people slip and slide over as if they do not exist. I do not call it a name. Not Calvinist reform or anything. Just questions. "Thy Will be done" in the Lords prayer. What is God's Will? "On earth as it is in Heaven"

Hi Saddle,

Good question. Tell us how you know God's will and when you are doing God's will. I am not trying to trap you; merely suggesting that a question is asked in two frames: either you know the answer and want to encourage others to find the answer; or you do not know the answer and are asking for an answer.

So, how will you answer this question?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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SB Saddle BurnsSmall Talker
Just asking the public as a whole.

Matt.7

1. [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt.12

1. [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matt.18

1. [14] Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matt.21

1. [31] Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mark.3

1. [35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

John.1

1. [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John.4

1. [34] Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John.5

1. [30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John.6

1. [38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
2. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

A
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Saddle,

You quoted a lot of Scripture -- but, you have not told us how YOU can know the will of God. If you ask question -- either say you do not know and are seeking an answer. Or, be able to answer the question yourself. Otherwise, how will you know if what we tell you is a lot of hot air or not?

I guess what I am saying is: put a little flesh on your posts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
Bill, how does the UU cult differ from your 60000 year old bible literalist cult? When does a cult graduate to mainstream?

I'm episcopalian by the way but I add my own spice.

Hi Sofa,

Are you Episcopalian by genetics and inheritance -- or by practice?

And, what do you know about the Unitarian Universalist church?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Rancid Apple: By the way, the Unitarian church simply accepts all religions and judges none to be inferior. It is what is known as "non-denominational." It's a church for Christians, Buddhists, Hindi deists. They even welcome atheists. It is far beyond your understanding.

Hi Rancid,

Joy is correct when she says, "I don't think so on the non-denominational part, RA. I know very little about Unitarian, but do know non-denominational is generally Christian, just not into the denomination thing."

Non-denominational does imply that this is a Christian church; but, is not affiliated with any of the Christian denominations. And, in all of our Christian churches, denominational or non-denominational, we also welcome all religions -- Buddhists, Hindu, Deists, Atheists, Agnostics, Secularists -- any and all of the world religions. However, when they come into our Christian churches -- they will hear the Word of God, they will hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they will be taught that Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6). So, while we welcome all to come and worship Jesus Christ with us -- there will be no Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Secularist, etc., theologies taught.

That, my Friend, is the difference between a Christian church -- and the Unitarian Universalist church.

Unitarian Universalists deny the Bible; they deny the deity of Jesus Christ; and they deny God (The UUs hold a variety of liberal views about God: Some do not believe that He is a Person, but instead claim He is an impersonal spirit, a natural force, or a principle. Some even claim that He is a created being, not supernatural. Others even deny His existence completely. From: http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/unitari.htm ).

Unitarian Universalists teach that salvation is within each person, i.e., they teach a form of Moral Relativism -- if it feels good to you, it is right. They teach a Universal Salvation -- that ALL people will be saved. To them, hell does not exist -- so everyone will go to heaven.

So, in the Unitarian Universalist churches everyone can come and, sitting side by side, worship God, or Buddha, or Hindu cows, or Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, or Science, etc. -- or whatever god or gods you desire.

In the Christian churches, while all these folks are welcome -- they WILL hear the Word of God; they WILL hear that Jesus Saves; and they WILL hear that there is no other WAY to the Father, except through Jesus Christ.

That, my Friend, is the difference -- and that is what makes the Unitarian Universalist church a cult.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:


Posted 25 March 2010 06:28 PM
Hi to my Forum Friends,

Should all Christians worship as we do in the Baptist churches? Should all Christians worship as they do in Pentecostal churches? Should all Christian churches have bishops and priests who wear robes and lead in liturgical rituals? Should all churches sing hymns -- or is it okay to sing praise songs and choruses -- or should all Christian churches ban all music as some do?

I know, you think I am being silly. No, what I am really saying is that HOW we worship God is not as important as -- THAT we worship God. What makes one person feel close to God -- is not necessarily what makes another feel close to God.


And yet, you repeatedly bash those who DO worship differently than you.

Your hypocrisy has no bounds.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:


Bill, it is MY belief that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is not about common swearing, but about using God's name to promote an agenda, or to mislead others. You are taking His name in vain just about every day from what I've been reading lately. I am still praying for you, for both your sake, and the sake of those whom you are trying to mislead.


i realize this is a pretty old post, but just had to throw my supposrt to this idea.
you aren't taking the lords name in vain whe nyou use profanity, not even that one word, you knwo the one i mean.
you aren't taking the lords name in vain when you look outside and say ' oh, god, it's raining again' or ' jesus, who ate all the cupcakes' or christalmighty, that guy is an idiot.

telling your television audience that if you don't get 10 million bucks in a month that the lord will call you home is a perfect example of taking the lord name in vain.

to use god's name, in your vanity, to promote your own needs, is sinful.
wether your need is prosperity, recognition, power or whatever, invoking the name of god to better yourself is useing his name in vain.

so anyway.. there ya go.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Bill, it is MY belief that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is not about common swearing, but about using God's name to promote an agenda, or to mislead others. You are taking His name in vain just about every day from what I've been reading lately. I am still praying for you, for both your sake, and the sake of those whom you are trying to mislead.

Hi O No,

In Exodus 20:7, we are told, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain."

What does it mean to take the Lord's name in vain? First, it means to disrespect His name; which is disrespecting Him. Any time a person swears or uses the Lord's name to emphasize his cursing, swearing, or any unseemly or angry remarks -- that is taking His name in vain. That is disrespecting Him; that is not honoring Him.

Any time anyone uses His name frivolously, even in a joking manner, that is taking His name in vain. Often folks will say "Jeez" which is a slang for "Jesus" -- or they will say "Gosh" which is a slang version of "God" -- and, very often, we see folks write OMG which is a slang version of "Oh, my God!" This is using the Lord's name to emphasize your statement -- and it is using His name in vain.

God's name should be used in respect, in honor, in worship -- but, NEVER in vain, NEVER to be cute, NEVER to add emphasis to a statement you are sharing with others. Yes, He is a jealous God -- and He is jealous of His Name. It is not to be taken lightly nor frivolously. It is to be used ONLY with respect.

Pastor David Guzik of Calvary Chapel College, Germany, tells us in his commentary on Exodus 20:

a. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain: We can break the third commandment through profanity (using the name of God in blasphemy and cursing), frivolity (using the name of God in a superficial, stupid way), and hypocrisy (claiming the name of God but acting in a way that disgraces Him).

i. . Jesus communicated the idea of this command in the disciples' prayer, when He taught us to have a regard for the holiness of God’s name (Hallowed be Your name, Matthew 6:9).

O No, you tell me, "Bill, it is MY belief that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is not about common swearing, but about using God's name to promote an agenda, or to mislead others."

My Friend, using the Lord's name in "common swearing" most certainly is taking His name in vain. And, using His name to promote a secular agenda or to mislead others also is taking His name in vain.

I realize that you are alluding to your belief that I use God's name to promote my political beliefs. This is not true. I will emphatically declare that our government -- from the local level to the highest federal level -- most certainly does need more Christian influence in it. This is not using His name to promote a political agenda. It is saying that we need more God, more Christian influence, in our government. And, only an atheist, a secularist, or a Liberal will argue otherwise.

Am I misleading folks in the name of God? Well, if telling folks that they need to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior to be saved -- is misleading folks; then, all I can say is, "Lord, help me to be more vigilant in that effort!"

Then you say, "I am still praying for you, for both your sake, and the sake of those whom you are trying to mislead."

First, let me say, "Thank you!" -- for I need all your prayers.

But, then, you say, "and the sake of those whom you are trying to mislead."

Please tell me and show me where I have tried to mislead anyone. Surely you do not believe that sharing the Word of God is misleading anyone -- do you? Surely you do not believe that sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is misleading anyone -- do you?

I am sincerely interested to know where you believe I have misled anyone. And, please, Sofa, VP, et al -- please, for once, allow O No to speak for himself/herself. Thank you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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T tigrtrekHall of Famer
Having seen the discussion title I thought this was about different styles of worship not differing doctrines. My answer to the original question posed is no.

Recently a church in my area (Baptist in fact) split over the form of worship service. One group (mostly younger) wanted to incorporate modern music and a contemporary feel the other faction wanted to retain the traditional Southern Baptist service. Finding no compromise the church split and now the contemporary group meets at a new location.

Knowing people in both factions to be sincere believers it is my belief that people respond to different styles of worship. So long as the basic doctrine is kept I see no problem with different forms of worship so long as honoring God is the focus and not exalting ourselves over Him.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by tigrtrek:
Having seen the discussion title I thought this was about different styles of worship not differing doctrines. My answer to the original question posed is no.

Recently a church in my area (Baptist in fact) split over the form of worship service. One group (mostly younger) wanted to incorporate modern music and a contemporary feel the other faction wanted to retain the traditional Southern Baptist service. Finding no compromise the church split and now the contemporary group meets at a new location.

Knowing people in both factions to be sincere believers it is my belief that people respond to different styles of worship. So long as the basic doctrine is kept I see no problem with different forms of worship so long as honoring God is the focus and not exalting ourselves over Him.


i have no problem with that.
god isn't going to give the same message to every single person, because not every single person would be able to understand the same thing.. he telsl us what to do in a way we each understand, personally, but it all still achieves his purpose.

if he designed a message for a phd. level language professor with a history minor and that man understood it perfectly... if a coal miner who dropped out of school in the 7th grade 45 years ago to go to work to help provide for the family got the exact same message, it wouldn't mean a lot to him.
god speaks to each of us in a way that we can understand him.
that's why it yanks my chain when bill tells us we are wrong.

(standing by for long unnecessary cut/paste reply form bill telling me how i'm wrong that's to boring to bother reading.)

a brief note to a few other people.
i understand what you mean now. bill ignores anything he can't defend against, and sticks to things other people have covered so he can copy/paste a rebuttal to points we bring up.
i've noticed a couple of times his replies weren't always exactly addressed to the mesage he was replying to, and now i under stand why.. he's just useing the closest thing he can find that some one else as already written.
it confused me when, at the hight of a discussion, he bails and starts another thread.. i realize now it's because he's exhausted his supply of other peoples material on that topic, so he picks something he has fresh ammo for. it's why it goes back again and again to the same 3 or 4 points, it's whay he's poached the most about, so he's better able to talk about those longer.

yeah.. it's sad.. i'd acctually hoped to have a little fun with bill... but he's becoming boring already.
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
Billygee is easily frustrated when called on anything. He starts a new topic, then when called by enough, he starts another, usually a rehash of either "Tribulation," "Rapture," "How I say one thing in effect, but really just want to save your souls from the sins of burning incense or daring to combine reason, tradition and scripture," then come "The Gays," Bill's own pet obsession, well favorite following "Why the President is a secret Kenyan terrorist Muslim enabler, as revealed by Jesus."

He is Ann Coulter addressing matters religious (allegedly) although his religion is the only pure unadulterated one in the world and he is gonna "prove" it to you by stealing others' words and obscure conspiracy sites and Jack Chick commentary. He is an alleged "Baptistcostal." I reckon that means he both hoots and has a devout belief in an act he finds unnecessary to salvation.

For his defense, Mr. Gray is a perfect of the negative model: the very person one should avoid in prose, cartoon theft or loony pseudo-theology.

Anyone who needs a chart to explain a convoluted sequence of "End Times" probably believes that water flows uphill without a pump just like in the famous Escher print.
AS Aude SapereHall of Famer
You have no idea of my personality, sir or madam as the case might be. I defend orthodoxy and ridicule the ridiculous. That is but one aspect. To stop a false prophet I will waste my time as I frankly have little else to do for my time, being too sick to be in public 3 weeks out of every 4 save for doctors' visits.

But I have a rather remarkable memory, and seem to recall a saying somewhere or another about about knowing a labor by its fruit. There is another one I cannot quite place about wolves in sheep's clothing. Then that really strange one about casting the first stone, I believe that one is right round the corner from something about a "not all who call me Lord."

Sorry I do not have a cartoon to post. I have had more than enough bad art to and worse prose to fill my life.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
You have no idea of my personality, sir or madam as the case might be. I defend orthodoxy and ridicule the ridiculous. That is but one aspect. To stop a false prophet I will waste my time as I frankly have little else to do for my time, being too sick to be in public 3 weeks out of every 4 save for doctors' visits.

Hi Neal/Aude,

True, I might not know your real personality. However, I do believe that everyone on the Religion Forum knows your Forum Personality. And, I will have to say that, most of the time, it is not very pleasant.

I am sorry that you are ill -- and I do pray for your healing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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