sincere question...

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Hi everyone,
I want to know your thoughts on this- call me crazy, but there is something that has ALWAYS confused me.
When someone dies, do you think that they go to Heaven/Hell immediately, or do you believe that they are "raised up on the Last Day".
ie- are they "just dead" until Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead...
I know a lot of times we pray for the dead saying things like "that _______may see the face of God this day"., and at funerals we send people to "their eternal inheritance, etc"....
So there in lies my confusion.
Please, dont poke fun, if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell- I am putting myself on the line a little by asking what may be a very simple question....
Veep.

Well VP,

This kind of hard for me to comment on because it would require me to believe in heaven/hell, but I am going to just revert back to what I remember my one time belief.

I had always understood it to be that on judgment day those people who had died in christ were to be risen first and taken to heaven. Then those still alive would be judged.

If that were true then that would mean that those who have died are just in some sort of limbo until his return.

Thats one of those things that always bothered me to. Why do preachers say "he/she has gone on to be with our lord" or "god has called him home" When the bible says they will be risen on judgment day.

Growing up CoC we were told we have to wait until Judgment Day for the contents of our individual envelopes. But we were also told we probably weren't going anyway, so I never thought much about it. If you're Catholic, vplee, you don't have to worry about it either, according to the Christers (kidding).

I know there are passages that say something about departing this body and being in the presence of God, so I've heard people use that as justification that we'll go immediately to heaven or hell.

Anyway, I'm a back-pew-cut-up-Christer-drop-out and perhaps not the best person to be answering, but I'm sure Gray will have an essay ready and posted by the a.m....and I'll try to get through it after a couple of cups of coffee.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Hi everyone,
I want to know your thoughts on this- call me crazy, but there is something that has ALWAYS confused me.
When someone dies, do you think that they go to Heaven/Hell immediately, or do you believe that they are "raised up on the Last Day".
ie- are they "just dead" until Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead...
I know a lot of times we pray for the dead saying things like "that _______may see the face of God this day"., and at funerals we send people to "their eternal inheritance, etc"....
So there in lies my confusion.
Please, dont poke fun, if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell- I am putting myself on the line a little by asking what may be a very simple question....
Veep.

Well VP,

This kind of hard for me to comment on because it would require me to believe in heaven/hell, but I am going to just revert back to what I remember my one time belief.

I had always understood it to be that on judgment day those people who had died in christ were to be risen first and taken to heaven. Then those still alive would be judged.

If that were true then that would mean that those who have died are just in some sort of limbo until his return.

Thats one of those things that always bothered me to. Why do preachers say "he/she has gone on to be with our lord" or "god has called him home" When the bible says they will be risen on judgment day.

I've always wondered if we do go to heaven or hell immediately after death, how or when do we face judgement? I mean if I die before Jesus makes his second appearance and I'm in heaven a few decades then the second coming takes place on earth, do I have to immediately stop what I'm doing in heaven (perhaps a tennis game) and go be judged for my earthly behavior (kind of like getting sent to the principal's office)?

tried to replay, but it didn't work.. so please forgive if this turns into a double post.


the only thing that makes sense to me is:
A: you are as perfect as one can be in this life, and get the full boarding pass through.

B: you weren't good, you weren't bad, so you mus twait until the final trump.. judgement day.. so you exist in a numb dream-yet-no-dreams state. Limbo, if you will.

C: you sucked. you were hitler or hussien or bin laden. you get a full ticket on the southbound elevator.

i dunno if this is truth... but it seem to make sense....

Vplee123

Seriously; nobody knows. Not even Bro. Bill or Thenagel.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Hi everyone,
I want to know your thoughts on this- call me crazy, but there is something that has ALWAYS confused me.
When someone dies, do you think that they go to Heaven/Hell immediately, or do you believe that they are "raised up on the Last Day".
ie- are they "just dead" until Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead...
I know a lot of times we pray for the dead saying things like "that _______may see the face of God this day"., and at funerals we send people to "their eternal inheritance, etc"....
So there in lies my confusion.
Please, dont poke fun, if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell- I am putting myself on the line a little by asking what may be a very simple question....
Veep.

That is a question I have often wondered about, some passages in the Bible indicate that we have to wait until the judgement however there are a couple of passages that make me think otherwise. One is Luke 23:43 when Jesus is on the cross and speaks to one of the theives who was crucified with him he says
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

There is also the parable of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man man is in hell and can see Lazarus being comforted in Heaven. Since in the story he wants an angel sent to warn his family, this also indicates that our judgement will be immediate since the rich man's family is still living.
So anyway, I still have to say I am not sure but because of those two passages I am inclined to believe that we will be judged immediatly.

The way that I see it is that when we die, our souls are immediately entered into Heaven or Hell. Now, when we hear that on judgment day those people who had died in Christ were to be risen first and taken to Heaven, I believe that this is referring to our Earthly bodies. When our Earthly bodies enter into Heaven, that's when we'll receive our new and perfect body.

quote:

Originally posted by JK Hawk:
The way that I see it is that when we die, our souls are immediately entered into Heaven or Hell. Now, when we hear that on judgment day those people who had died in Christ were to be risen first and taken to Heaven, I believe that this is referring to our Earthly bodies. When our Earthly bodies enter into Heaven, that's when we'll receive our new and perfect body.

Why would you even need a 'body'?

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:

quote:

Originally posted by JK Hawk:
The way that I see it is that when we die, our souls are immediately entered into Heaven or Hell. Now, when we hear that on judgment day those people who had died in Christ were to be risen first and taken to Heaven, I believe that this is referring to our Earthly bodies. When our Earthly bodies enter into Heaven, that's when we'll receive our new and perfect body.

Why would you even need a 'body'?

without bodies, there can be no boobies. without boobies, there can be no heaven.

important thing to remember.

It's really a moot point (kinda like whether or not you can lose your salvation in this life). Ultimately, only true disciples of the living Savior (Jesus) will enter into heaven...

To address the question, however, I believe the Bible teaches that the physical body (this one we're sitting in right now) is dead because of sin and is destined to return to the earth from whence it was formed. The immortal soul (that "breath of life" that God breathed into Adam upon the sixth "day" of creation) is the "image of God" and returns to God (or, perhaps (I'm a little unclear on this), like Jesus, descends into hell) upon physical death. At the coming of Christ, the physical bodies which are dead will be raised incorruptible (unable to die) and will be made in the likeness of the resurrected Christ (immortal, able to transcend physical laws, etc.) Those who are alive at that moment will follow immediately. The souls of the dead (and those still alive at His coming) will be "reunited" with their respective physical (resurrected) bodies and then everyone will stand in judgment together. The "sheep" (followers of Christ) will be called into heaven and the "goats" (followers of Satan) will the cast into everlasting hell, to be eternally separated from the Holy God.

I don't have a Ph.D. in theology or anything (which is probably a good thing when it comes to really understanding scripture -- I'd rather let the Holy Spirit teach me than some radical ministerial misfit with a sheepskin (and sheep's clothing)), but that's pretty much how I understand it.

quote:

Originally posted by rramlimnn:
Vplee123

Seriously; nobody knows. Not even Bro. Bill or Thenagel.

Seriously, the answer you get will be various depending on whom you ask for in reality no one can definitively know for sure and Scripture remains vague on the specific answer.

As a professing Christian, and a believer, I will answer in the most definitive way I can and believe is backed up by Scripture.

Upon death the inner spirit ( some refer to it by the term soul ) departs from the fleshly container, we call our body, and at that point, the spirit, resides within the spiritual realm. That's a very general statement for it really doesn't answer your specific question in the way I feel you desire it to be answered. I do feel that God can do whatever God wants meaning that, as with the thief on the cross, the persons spirit can be immediately taken into heaven or that Spiritual Heaven where God resides. I will also say that I am not fully convinced, within my own mind, what exactly happens upon that moment of death except for the fact that our fleshly existence in this physical world ends. As to what happens, to each individual, after that moment of physical death is also in question among different believers and denominations and religions. Some believe that saints of God, believers, the saved etc will, form that moment of death, enter into "eternal life". A life that never ends followed by various rewards depending upon that persons service and acts while alive in the physical life.

What happens to those those who are not saved, non-believers is also hotly debated. Some believe that multiple fates await those who are unsaved depending upon their actions, acts, or how they lived their lives while in the physical state. Some believe that for some, of the worst offenders, that eternal punishment awaits in hell or in the lake of fire. Others believe that opposed to eternal life is physical and spiritual death (the second death) where the person ceases to exist and everything ends at that point. Still others believe in an eternal separation from God existing eternally apart from God knowing conscience of their chosen state. Still others believe we all continue to live, in a spiritual state, where depending upon one's choices while in their physical state and life receive various rewards or exist in more favorable states. There are even more beliefs about what awaits after death but I have listed only a few of the major ones that I have heard put forth by various denominations and believers.

If you want to know my personal belief, about what happens after death, then I will attempt to explain, best as I can, but I am not fully convinced of my own, as of this point. I will also cite various verses that I use to achieve this position of belief.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (CEV) 7 So our bodies return to the earth, and the life-giving breath returns to God. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6 (CEV) 1 Our bodies are like tents that we live in here on earth. But when these tents are destroyed, we know that God will give each of us a place to live. These homes will not be buildings that someone has made, but they are in heaven and will last forever. 2 While we are here on earth, we sigh because we want to live in that heavenly home. 3 We want to put it on like clothes and not be naked. 4 These tents we now live in are like a heavy burden, and we groan. But we don't do this just because we want to leave these bodies that will die. It is because we want to change them for bodies that will never die. 5 God is the one who makes all of this possible. He has given us his Spirit to make us certain that he will do it. 6 So always be cheerful! As long as we are in these bodies, we are away from the Lord.

From the above man's inner spirit/soul leaves the confines of the fleshly body that served as a vessel to hold the spirit. For the Christian I believe that either the soul/spirit/person enters a state of rest or waiting until Christ returns at the time of the rapture to catch up the dead in Christ first, preceding those that are alive at that time. At this time the souls/spirits of those "in Christ" will be given new "spiritual" or "glorified" bodies which will be their eternal bodies that they/we will have throughout eternity. This Spiritual, or glorified, body I also believe scripture teaches will have no sex or distinctions as our physical bodies do now nor will there exist diseases or problems with those bodies that we see in our earthly, physical, bodies today and whether the are bodies that will be similar, in appearance to our physical bodies I can't say either. Likewise I don't know if these glorified bodies will be of such appearance that we will be able to recognize those people/loved ones we associate with in the physical life or if we will just have knowledge of who each of us are, a knowledge that surpasses physical recognition.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 (CEV) 13 My friends, we want you to understand how it will be for those followers who have already died. Then you won't grieve over them and be like people who don't have any hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and was raised to life. We also believe that when God brings Jesus back again, he will bring with him all who had faith in Jesus before they died. 15 Our Lord Jesus told us that when he comes, we won't go up to meet him ahead of his followers who have already died.
So in short I do believe that upon death the spirit leaves the physical body but I don't believe it (the spirit) goes immediately to it's place of eternal state but awaits that appointed time at which Christ will reunite the spirit with the spiritual body. As for those that are not saved or non-belivers then I believe that the appointed time that their spirit will meet God will be at the moment of Judgement and at the point that it is Judged. As to if there is any awareness of loved ones or awareness of the physical world and events happening there I just don't know.

Either way I do believe that man has one time to make decisions and that time is during the physical life when we have a mind to make decisions.

Another question, which I have wondered about, is exactly what do we carry with us into the afterlife? Do we carry our memories? Recognition of those loved ones around us or of our lives past events or experiences or are all those a part of the physical body and dies with the physical body upon physical death?

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:

Another question, which I have wondered about, is exactly what do we carry with us into the afterlife? Do we carry our memories? Recognition of those loved ones around us or of our lives past events or experiences or are all those a part of the physical body and dies with the physical body upon physical death?

That was something I had wondered too. If you have read any of my post then you know that I no longer believe in heaven/hell at all, but there was a time when this idea was very important to me.

I just always felt that I had to still remember what this earth was like and the experiences I had to be able to appreciate heaven to its fullest. Its as if you never experienced sadness then how will you know joy?

I no longer worry over it. I have peace in my mind now. After many years of striving to be accepted into heaven one day I now concentrate on what is great about the life I have now. I have a beautiful grandchild that gives me more joy than any one deserves. I have a great husband and children. I find reward in everyday life. I don't think I could go back to the worry of heaven and hell ever again. Its a burden, to say the least.

I'm going to say the soul is held until the judgment day, but considering that God's time frame is not man's, that holding time will only be a instant for the souls. I would assume that God already knows which souls are good or bad (and I am going to say that I think that 'bad' would have to be on the level of cold blooded murderer with no remorse or child predators) and therefore already knows where those souls will go.
Since we are talking about an omnipotent being, it's already laid out like a movie.
My two cents m( worth -5 right now).

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
I'm going to say the soul is held until the judgment day, but considering that God's time frame is not man's, that holding time will only be a instant for the souls. I would assume that God already knows which souls are good or bad (and I am going to say that I think that 'bad' would have to be on the level of cold blooded murderer with no remorse or child predators) and therefore already knows where those souls will go.
Since we are talking about an omnipotent being, it's already laid out like a movie.
My two cents m( worth -5 right now).

Good point. We all (humans) judge things with regard to time. When is this going to happen, it's been too long or if it hasn't happened it never will.

When you consider eternity or that concept then time is nothing. There is no time for there is no standard. One billion years is but a second and a second like a billion years. Time has no meaning or definition with regards to eternity and the whole concept of eternity (past and future) is beyond, in my opinion, human comprehension.

i know from experience that the spirit hangs around for awhile. how or why i have no clue.

tc i would love to hear about this experience..if not too personal!

is exactly what do we carry with us into the afterlife? Do we carry our memories? Recognition of those loved ones around us or of our lives past events or experiences or are all those a part of the physical body and dies with the physical body upon physical death?

Ah,, I wonder about all that too.
Especially when someone says something like "She is smiling down on you from Heaven."
Really?? If I died, and was in Heaven, I could watch my kids grow up? Would we be aware of things happening on Earth?
Seems to me, that watching from a distance would be torturous.
But, I have heard people say they have "felt" the presence of loved ones who haved passed away.
Oh, what a mystery.....

Hi VP,

Thank you for starting this discussion -- and I appreciate your sincerity in sharing your understandings and feelings on this subject.

You tell us, "Hi everyone, I want to know your thoughts on this. Call me crazy, but there is something that has ALWAYS confused me. When someone dies, do you think that they go to Heaven/Hell immediately, or do you believe that they are "raised up on the Last Day" -- i.e,, are they "just dead" until Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead."

From the Bible we know that, when we die, our physical, mortal bodies go into the grave. But, our spirit, the real us -- goes immediately to be with the Lord.

We know the mortal body is in the grave -- for 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 tells us that, at the Rapture, ". . .the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

And, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, we read, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

In the Bible, death is often called sleep. It is the physical body which sleeps. But, how about the spirit; what happens to our spirit when we die?

In Philippians 1:21-24, Paul tells the believers of Philippi, and us, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."

And, in 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 the apostle Paul writes to the Corinthian church, and to us, "Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord — for we walk by faith, not by sight — we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him."

In both of these passages, Paul speaks of leaving this mortal body and "being with the Lord." This tells me that Paul believed that as soon as he died, with his next breath, his spirit would be in heaven with Jesus Christ.

And, we have the case of the thief on the cross, in Luke 23:43, "And He (Jesus Christ) said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'" At that time, Paradise was still a part of Hades. In Luke 16:19-31, we read Jesus' story of the rich man in Torment and Lazarus in Paradise. Then, on the third day, when Jesus resurrected, He led the saints, which included the thief, from Paradise/Hades and personally escorted them to Paradise/Heaven (Ephesians 4:8). So, the thief, when he died, was with Jesus Christ in Paradise -- and then was escorted by Jesus into heaven.

Based upon these passages, I believe that after my last breath in this mortal body -- my next breath will be in heaven, in spirit. And, I believe that my love ones and friends will be standing with Jesus Christ to welcome me home. Again, this will be my spirit; for my physical body, this shell, will be in the grave. But, I will be very much alive; more alive than I have ever been.

VP, you ask, "Do you believe that they are "raised up on the Last Day" -- i.e,, are they "just dead" until Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead."

For the Old Testament believers and we New Testament believers; if we die before the Rapture -- our bodies will be in the grave; but, we will be alive in the spirit with the Lord. We will be very much alive; we will recognize our loved ones, we will enjoy fellowship with our loved ones, our friends, all the saints, i.e., the believers -- and Jesus Christ. But, we will not yet be in our immortal bodies.

At the Rapture, those Christian believers who are still alive will be "caught up" -- harpazo (Greek), rapiemur (Latin) -- to meet Jesus Christ in the air, in the clouds. These believers will not die; but, will be "caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to be with the Lord. At this time, all believers, Old Testament and New Testament, will receive our immortal, glorified bodies. This was our resurrection.

The only folks left in the grave at this time will be the non-believers. Their physical bodies will be sleeping in the grave; but, their spirits, their true being -- will be in the Torment side of Hades -- awaiting final judgment.

At the end of the one thousand year Millennial Kingdom, the bodies of all non-believers will resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and they will all stand, in their eternal, immortal bodies -- to face the final judgment of Jesus Christ -- the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

So, we believers will receive our immortal bodies at the Rapture; non-believers will receive their immortal bodies at the final judgment.

Next, VP, you tell us, "I know a lot of times we pray for the dead saying things like 'that _______may see the face of God this day.' And, at funerals we send people to 'their eternal inheritance, etc' .... So there in lies my confusion."

Jesus Christ died on the cross that we might inherit His righteousness when we, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive salvation. We are imputed, i.e., we inherit or have His righteousness attributed to us, the moment we are saved. Our own righteousness will gain us nothing, for our righteousness, our works, is like filthy rags in the eyes of God (Isaiah 64:6).

But, the moment we are saved, we have Christ's cloak of righteousness wrapped around us -- AND, the Holy Spirit indwells us and seals us, until the day or redemption (Ephesians 4:30). The Holy Spirit comes to live within us at that moment -- and He can never be evicted.

Since we have His perfect righteousness covering us; God sees no sin, no blemish, in us (Romans 8:1). Therefore, there is no reason for us to wait somewhere else to be cleansed or to work out our sins. In the eyes of God, we who are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ have no sin -- and we will be welcomed immediately into heaven, into the presence of God.

In 1987, I became a Christian believer under the tutelage of a Godly man, Pastor Sam Lacanienta. Over the years, I have been present at a number of funerals and memorial services where he officiated. This included his own mother, his brother-in-law, and a number of our close Christian brothers and sisters.

At these services, Pastor Sam always tells us, "This person, ________, is a Christian believer. She is no longer in this mortal shell we see; for when she breathed that last breath -- she walked directly into the waiting arms of her Savior, Jesus Christ. If you are a Christian believer, you will not say, 'Good bye' -- for it is only a temporary parting. You do not say, 'Good bye' -- instead, you say to this loved one, 'Good night. I will see you on that glorious Morning.'

Yet, if you are not a Christian believer, you must say, 'Good bye' today -- for you will never see ________ again."

Based upon what I know of my God, what I know of Jesus Christ, and what I believe the Bible teaches -- I believe what Pastor Sam has told us with all my heart. And, this is why, in 1994, when my mom died -- I made sure that her viewing and her funeral were celebrations and not wakes. We celebrated her Home Going!

Yes, I had my time of tears, I had my time of mourning and sadness -- for myself, not for her. How could I be sad for her? She was already in the presence of our Lord -- she was happy, she had no more pain, she had no more tears. She was reaping her heavenly reward. Would I have asked God to send her back to me? If I had, it would have been only for my own personal comfort and not for her happiness. Having her come back would be like granting a person their greatest wish -- and then taking it back.

My mourning and my tears were for myself; for I knew how much I would miss her. But, praise God, I KNOW that I will be with her again one day -- for eternity.

Finally, VP, you tell us, "Please, don't poke fun if you don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I am putting myself on the line a little by asking what may be a very simple question.... Veep."

VP, thank you for asking this question. To you it may have been a simple question; but, you and I can see from the responses of others -- there is a lot of confusion about what happens to us at death. Yet, I sincerely believe the Bible teaches that when we die, our next moment will be in heaven with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
is exactly what do we carry with us into the afterlife? Do we carry our memories? Recognition of those loved ones around us or of our lives past events or experiences or are all those a part of the physical body and dies with the physical body upon physical death?

Ah,, I wonder about all that too.
Especially when someone says something like "She is smiling down on you from Heaven."
Really?? If I died, and was in Heaven, I could watch my kids grow up? Would we be aware of things happening on Earth?
Seems to me, that watching from a distance would be torturous.
But, I have heard people say they have "felt" the presence of loved ones who haved passed away.
Oh, what a mystery.....

this really is a good topic.
i don't have a whole lot to add, really, but i will say this much:

if the saved go to heaven, and when they get there their earthly issues no longer matter... i'm not sure i like the idea of it.

i don't know if my mom is watching me. i rather hope she isn't, acctually.
but i like the idea of her spending happy times in the company of her mother and father while she is there.

and i'll also add this:
if, when it is all said and done, if i'm not enough of the same person i am now, to be in heaven as desperatly in love with my wife, i'm not sure i want to go.

i've heard it said that when we get to heaven that all earthy wants and needs are gone. i'm very sorry, but i want and i need to be with this woman. i love her with every inch of my being, every ounce of my soul. if, when i get to heaven, the only thing i am concerned with is singing songs to god and his son, and she is no longer anything that matter to me....
.. then i'd just as soon skip the whole trip.
She is my life.. my love, my reason for waking up every day. she is the reason i spend so much time on this subject, trying to figure out the way.. .the path... how she and i can be together for .. well.. ever.
if, upon entering heaven, i no longer care about her..
...i don't wanna go.
the only thing that comes close to importance to me as my wife, is being in love with my wife.

if the only way to go to heaven means i lose that, i'll pass.
even if i burn or freeze for the rest of existance, as long as i have the love in my heart for her.. i can tolerate it
an eternity in hell is nothing compaired to the thought that i won't feel this way about her afterwards.

without my wife, heaven doesn't exist.

Oh, Nagel...
That was quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever read.
Nothing to add, but she is a very lucky lady!
Whatsoever is bound on earth, shall be bound in Heaven, right??!?

Hi Nagel,

The Bible doesn't say that we will not love people in heaven; it only says that we will not be married in the sense of having children and raising families. Those we are close to in this life -- we will be close to in heaven.

Those of us who are believers today will be Raptured out of this world for the seven year Tribulation -- and then, return with Christ at the end of the Tribulation when He comes to establish His Millennial Kingdom.

When we return with Him, we will not be marrying and having husbands and wife -- for there will be no need for that. We will love everyone; and, I am sure we will have special relationships. But, we will be in our immortal bodies and will, in that sense, be like the angels -- neither marrying or having children.

The only people who will be marrying and having children during the Millennial Kingdom -- will be those who became believers after the Rapture. But, for that delay, they will have to live through seven years of pure hell on earth -- the Antichrist's Tribulation.

My Friend, trust me, you will be happy in heaven. You say you are trying to figure out a way that you and your wife can be together eternally. I have the solution for you. If both of you are born again Christian believers -- you WILL spend eternity with each other and with Jesus Christ. However, for that to happen -- you have to put Jesus Christ first NOW.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

The Bible doesn't say that we will not love people in heaven; it only says that we will not be married in the sense of having children and raising families. Those we are close to in this life -- we will be close to in heaven.

i didn't meant to say that i thought it did. i just wanted to convey that i had heard that it did.

quote:

However, for that to happen -- you have to put Jesus Christ first NOW.

isn't going to happen.
regardless of my belief in god and in christ, no one on this earth or in heaven is more important to me.
my kids run a close second... but when my kids are grown, moved on, and living their lives, my wife will still be there.
God and Christ are welcome in my life. i've prayed for them to come into our lives, but under no circumstancesw will they be the most important thing in my life.
ever.
if this damms me, then so be it.
/shrug.

for that matter, i don't recall any biblical text that says i need to put Christ above my love for my wife.

you can find what you think proves this, but it won't matter.
my wife comes before all... if you don't feel the same way, then i hope that god shows her the love you havent.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh, Nagel...
That was quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever read.
Nothing to add, but she is a very lucky lady!
Whatsoever is bound on earth, shall be bound in Heaven, right??!?

she's my life
/shrug.
without her, nothing else matters.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh, Nagel... That was quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever read. Nothing to add, but she is a very lucky lady! Whatsoever is bound on earth, shall be bound in Heaven, right??!?

she's my life. without her, nothing else matters.

HE'S ETERNAL LIFE FOR BOTH OF YOU!

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
God and Christ are welcome in my life. i've prayed for them to come into our lives, but under no circumstances will they be the most important thing in my life. ever. if this damms me, then so be it. for that matter, i don't recall any biblical text that says i need to put Christ above my love for my wife. you can find what you think proves this, but it won't matter. my wife comes before all... if you don't feel the same way, then i hope that god shows her the love you havent.

Hi Nagel,

Personally, I am thrilled to know that my wife puts Jesus Christ before me. For, if she did not -- I would worry about her salvation. He died for her; she should be willing to die to her flesh to follow Him. And, praise God, she does!

Matthew 8:19-22, "Then a scribe came and said to Him, "Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go." Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

Jesus tells us to, "Follow Him!" He does not say, "Go have fun -- and when you are through -- come, follow Me."

And, in heaven it will really not matter anyway. We will not have husbands and wives.

Matthew 22:25-30, "'Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.' Last of all, the woman died. 'In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.' But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.'"

So, Nagel, what will you tell Jesus Christ in heaven when He tells you that you are no longer married?

If you truly love your wife -- you would want to MAKE SURE she has eternal life in Christ. Isn't her eternal soul worth you sacrificing something now? Compare all this to the sacrifice Jesus Christ did just for YOU -- and tell me that you will refuse Jesus just because you cannot be married to your wife in heaven.

Do you have any idea how immature and childish this makes you look? You are like the little boy who declares, "I want chocolate ice cream! And, if I can't have chocolate ice cream -- I am just going to quit breathing! That will show you!" Duh!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

and i'll also add this:
if, when it is all said and done, if i'm not enough of the same person i am now, to be in heaven as desperatly in love with my wife, i'm not sure i want to go.

i've heard it said that when we get to heaven that all earthy wants and needs are gone. i'm very sorry, but i want and i need to be with this woman. i love her with every inch of my being, every ounce of my soul. if, when i get to heaven, the only thing i am concerned with is singing songs to god and his son, and she is no longer anything that matter to me....
.. then i'd just as soon skip the whole trip.
She is my life.. my love, my reason for waking up every day. she is the reason i spend so much time on this subject, trying to figure out the way.. .the path... how she and i can be together for .. well.. ever.
if, upon entering heaven, i no longer care about her..
...i don't wanna go.
the only thing that comes close to importance to me as my wife, is being in love with my wife.

if the only way to go to heaven means i lose that, i'll pass.
even if i burn or freeze for the rest of existance, as long as i have the love in my heart for her.. i can tolerate it
an eternity in hell is nothing compaired to the thought that i won't feel this way about her afterwards.

without my wife, heaven doesn't exist.

Nagel,
Today is my anniversary (33 years) and I feel the same way about my husband. Beautiful post. Thank you.

Nagel- I hear ya, brother. By the sound of it, heaven'd seem pretty lame after my life with my soul-mate. I wouldn't want to go either.

And a happy anniversary to you and yours, b50m.

quote:

Originally posted by Road Puppy:
Nagel- I hear ya, brother. By the sound of it, heaven'd seem pretty lame after my life with my soul-mate. I wouldn't want to go either.

Hi Puppy,

Since I do not know you personally; I cannot make a call. However, from your posts -- I would take a wild guess and say that you have no worry about spending eternity in heaven.

However, it is NOT too late to turn around (we call that repenting, turning from the world and turning TO Jesus Christ) -- before that last breath.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Thank you puppy, we had a wonderful Chinese lunch!

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Nagel, Today is my anniversary (33 years) and I feel the same way about my husband. Beautiful post. Thank you.

Hi B50,

In two months exactly (Sept 2) my wife, Dory, and I will join you in celebrating the 33RD. So far, it has been an amazing life, never a dull moment. And, God has blessed us in so many ways. I can hardly wait to see what happens in the next 33 years!

However, no matter how much I love her -- she will always play second fiddle to Jesus Christ. And, she would have it no other way.

When we were married in 1977, I was not a Christian believer. And, many times I have told her that the biggest mistake she ever made was marrying me. Yet, God took her mistake and has made something good from it.

She laughs and tells folks, "I wanted him to be a Christian. Now, look at the monster I have created; he won't stop talking about God and Jesus Christ!" However, when she says this; I know the joy it brings her -- knowing that I spend my time working for the Lord. And, we both have the great joy of knowing that everyone in our family are also Christian believers and love God.

We love our spouse, our children, our family, and our friends with a worldly love. Our love for God is a divine love. So, in trying to compare the two -- it is an apples and oranges situation. Yet, saying to the world and to God, "Sorry, God, but you have to take the second chair" -- can never be justified.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
God and Christ are welcome in my life. i've prayed for them to come into our lives, but under no circumstances will they be the most important thing in my life. ever. if this damms me, then so be it. for that matter, i don't recall any biblical text that says i need to put Christ above my love for my wife. you can find what you think proves this, but it won't matter. my wife comes before all... if you don't feel the same way, then i hope that god shows her the love you havent.

Hi Nagel,

Personally, I am thrilled to know that my wife puts Jesus Christ before me. For, if she did not -- I would worry about her salvation. He died for her; she should be willing to die to her flesh to follow Him. And, praise God, she does!

Matthew 8:19-22, "Then a scribe came and said to Him, "Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go." Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father." But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

Jesus tells us to, "Follow Him!" He does not say, "Go have fun -- and when you are through -- come, follow Me."

And, in heaven it will really not matter anyway. We will not have husbands and wives.

Matthew 22:25-30, "'Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.' Last of all, the woman died. 'In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.' But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.'"

So, Nagel, what will you tell Jesus Christ in heaven when He tells you that you are no longer married?

If you truly love your wife -- you would want to MAKE SURE she has eternal life in Christ. Isn't her eternal soul worth you sacrificing something now? Compare all this to the sacrifice Jesus Christ did just for YOU -- and tell me that you will refuse Jesus just because you cannot be married to your wife in heaven.

Do you have any idea how immature and childish this makes you look? You are like the little boy who declares, "I want chocolate ice cream! And, if I can't have chocolate ice cream -- I am just going to quit breathing! That will show you!" Duh!
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Why did you do that? This is why people don't listen to you and also why you shouldn't be spreading "the good news"; your delivery is terrible.

Nagel was refreshingly honest about his feelings for his wife and you respond with disrespect in your last paragraph; the whole post was negated by that last paragraph. Calling his feelings immature is totally uncalled for. Then you go on to tell us what your wife means to you in your last post. Oy!

If you really cared to be anything but mean, here's what you should have said: I understand that you love your wife so much you want to have the same relationship with her in heaven as you do on earth; I feel the same way about my wife. I can't imagine a moment in this life without her. Well the good news is heaven is going to be such a wonderful place that we'll have the capacity to love each other like we couldn't on earth. And you'll recognize and be with your wife for eternity, but being in heaven is going to be so awesome that our earthly relationships won't matter up there.

I'm putting you on my prayer list, Bill Gray.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Do you have any idea how immature and childish this makes you look? You are like the little boy who declares, "I want chocolate ice cream! And, if I can't have chocolate ice cream -- I am just going to quit breathing! That will show you!" Duh!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

no, that's not right.

(to keep with your desert theme)

it is like me being happy with my brownie. then somone offers me ice cream to go on the brownie.
but to have the ice cream, i have to tell the ice cream i love it more, and put my brownie in second place.

instead i stick with my first love, the brownie, because ice cream should go with the brownie, not replace it.

now, ask me if i care how it makes me look to you.
g'head... ask me....

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:


Nagel,
Today is my anniversary (33 years) and I feel the same way about my husband. Beautiful post. Thank you.

thank you and /cheers and congratulations!

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:


Nagel was refreshingly honest about his feelings for his wife and you respond with disrespect in your last paragraph; the whole post was negated by that last paragraph. Calling his feelings immature is totally uncalled for. Then you go on to tell us what your wife means to you in your last post. Oy!

/bows respectfully.
thank you Buttercup.

quote:

Yet, saying to the world and to God, "Sorry, God, but you have to take the second chair" -- can never be justified.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill,
Do you have any idea how ridiculous is it to have this at the bottom of your reply to someone that involves belittling them?

If God wants me to choose between my love for my husband and my devotion for Him, then that is a false God. I don't believe He does. What would heaven be worth if I have no loved ones there? To me, God knows I love Him and I love my husband, He knows that I would never choose to leave my husband. He strengthened the bond himself, why would He then expect me to tear it apart?

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:


Nagel,
Today is my anniversary (33 years) and I feel the same way about my husband. Beautiful post. Thank you.

thank you and /cheers and congratulations!

Thank you. We had a great day!

quote:

Originally posted by Buttercup:
If you really cared to be anything but mean, here's what you should have said: I understand that you love your wife so much you want to have the same relationship with her in heaven as you do on earth; I feel the same way about my wife. I can't imagine a moment in this life without her. Well the good news is heaven is going to be such a wonderful place that we'll have the capacity to love each other like we couldn't on earth. And you'll recognize and be with your wife for eternity, but being in heaven is going to be so awesome that our earthly relationships won't matter up there.

I'm putting you on my prayer list, Bill Gray.

Hi Butter,

When you tell someone who publicly announces that, to him, God comes second in his life -- he will be in heaven -- I have to question that.

When we put anything or anyone above God; that person or that object become our god. And, He has told us, "You will have no other god before me."

In what Nagel has stated -- his wife is his god -- and God runs second best. Do you really believe a person can truly mean this and still worship God as God wants us to worship Him?

I do not.

By the way, thank you for your prayers. I need all I can get.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yet, saying to the world and to God, "Sorry, God, but you have to take the second chair" -- can never be justified.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill,

Do you have any idea how ridiculous is it to have this at the bottom of your reply to someone that involves belittling them?

If God wants me to choose between my love for my husband and my devotion for Him, then that is a false God. I don't believe He does. What would heaven be worth if I have no loved ones there? To me, God knows I love Him and I love my husband, He knows that I would never choose to leave my husband. He strengthened the bond himself, why would He then expect me to tear it apart?

Hi B50,

That remark was not intended to belittle anyone -- but, only to point out a truth.

If we put ANYONE or ANYTHING above God -- that thing or that person become our god. And, we both know this greatly displeases God, for He tells us that, "You shall have NO other god above Him."

So, whether it is material wealth or a person -- if you place that before God -- you are worshiping a false god.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I do not WORSHIP my husband, I love him.
He is not my god, he is half of my soul.

What God has joined together let no man put asunder.

If God blesses marriage, then you don't think He wants us to love each other as much as we love Him?