So Much Controversy, I Am Right, Your Wrong, Your Right, I Am Wrong

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

quote:

Good works can only be the fruit of faith, flowing freely as a response to the new life within, not laboriously, to buy into heaven."

RN,

Let's just concentrate on the phrase "Good works can only be the fruit of faith". Nonsense.

Morality is not the exclusive property of Christians, nor the religious in general. There is such a thing as atheist morality which I'll stand toe-to-toe with any religious morality. As we atheists find ourselves in larger and larger common cause, such morality is ever more evident.

Not picking on you, just giving you something to think about.

The religious can not think of a good deed that religion does that cannot be done by atheists, and is not.

Submitted FYI.


nsns

You certainly make good points. I will admit that I feel a bit out of my element here...as opposed to the political forum.

I will say good deeds are not done for the "sake" of doing good deeds...I mean, what makes them good?

They are done for the love of Christ...(God, Buddha, ect.)

RN,

I could not disagree more.

Good deeds are done because of our innate brotherhood with all mankind (overly masculine references to be forgiven).

Human kind developed morality long before the Jewish fable of the Exodus. It was necessary for cohesive societies. No society can survive without cooperation, without the proscription of murder, perjury, theft, and adultery. If the Exodus was true (and it is not), the Jews would not have made it to the foot of Mt. Sinai at all. Morality is an innate, hard-wired function of the normal human mind.

There is always the man who will fall on the grenade to save the platoon. To say he does it either to gain favor with God or he does not do it and risks God's wrath is the very evisceration of human morality. It strips morality of everything beautiful and pure. It abrades morality to the point of nothingness. It removes all humanity from morality and replaces it with a hollow superstition. It turns morality into immorality.

To say morality is only a gesture to satisfy the gods is to insult our basic humanity. We were moral before we were human. Otherwise, we would never have become human.

The Bible is the farthest thing on which to base human morality. THE farthest. Read it. You'll see.


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Nation:

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

quote:

Good works can only be the fruit of faith, flowing freely as a response to the new life within, not laboriously, to buy into heaven."

RN,

Let's just concentrate on the phrase "Good works can only be the fruit of faith". Nonsense.

Morality is not the exclusive property of Christians, nor the religious in general. There is such a thing as atheist morality which I'll stand toe-to-toe with any religious morality. As we atheists find ourselves in larger and larger common cause, such morality is ever more evident.

Not picking on you, just giving you something to think about.

The religious can not think of a good deed that religion does that cannot be done by atheists, and is not.

Submitted FYI.


nsns

You certainly make good points. I will admit that I feel a bit out of my element here...as opposed to the political forum.

I will say good deeds are not done for the "sake" of doing good deeds...I mean, what makes them good?

They are done for the love of Christ...(God, Buddha, ect.)

Sorry RN.. i gotta side with the heathen athiest on this one.

a good deed is a good deed.

what makes them good is the impact they have on the person they are done for.

giveing the single mother of 3 a big turkey dinner for thxgiving is a good deed because it give a meal to some kids and they are hard working mom.
while i DO believe in god and christ, there is no reason whatever that it would be necessary to believe in them to do good things.

me, i like to help people because of the way it makes ME feel inside to help them.
my fav is to do something much needed without them ever knowing the source. that generates directionless graditude that spreads out among many people.
if you do something swell for some one and they KNOW it was you, then you get the thanks and graditude and such... if it's anon, then the graditude and thanks and love spreads out among the people the target contacts over the next several days. with one anonymous kind act, you can touch dozens of lives.

if it sounds like i'm repeating myself, blame the sunkist.
see, i hate the flavor, so i have to chase it with rum.

while i do believe, i don't do good deeds for christ. i do them for me, because it makes ME feel good. when people want to know where the gift comes from, i just tell them to to remember to pray.

i don't do good things for christ... he can take care of his own deeds - he dosent' need me at all.
doing good things in the name of jesus and letting people know about it pretty much defets the purpoes....

' when you give alms, let not your right hand know what your left is doing'.

so i don't tell either hand what anyone is doing, and just enjoy the happy

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
I will say good deeds are not done for the "sake" of doing good deeds...I mean, what makes them good?
They are done for the love of Christ...(God, Buddha, ect.)

No, no, no...not true! They are done to make the person doing it feel good.

You want to do a really good deed? Do it so the person you're doing it for doesn't know it's you that did it. THAT's a good deed.

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
RN,

I could not disagree more.

Good deeds are done because of our innate brotherhood with all mankind (overly masculine references to be forgiven).

Human kind developed morality long before the Jewish fable of the Exodus. It was necessary for cohesive societies. No society can survive without cooperation, without the proscription of murder, perjury, theft, and adultery. If the Exodus was true (and it is not), the Jews would not have made it to the foot of Mt. Sinai at all. Morality is an innate, hard-wired function of the normal human mind.

There is always the man who will fall on the grenade to save the platoon. To say he does it either to gain favor with God or he does not do it and risks God's wrath is the very evisceration of human morality. It strips morality of everything beautiful and pure. It abrades morality to the point of nothingness. It removes all humanity from morality and replaces it with a hollow superstition. It turns morality into immorality.

To say morality is only a gesture to satisfy the gods is to insult our basic humanity. We were moral before we were human. Otherwise, we would never have become human.

The Bible is the farthest thing on which to base human morality. THE farthest. Read it. You'll see.


nsns

Well remember that this was started with your objection to:

"Good works can only be the fruit of faith, flowing freely as a response to the new life within, not laboriously, to buy into heaven."

I guess what I was trying to say without God...what makes a good deed good? I certainly was not suggesting "morality is only a gesture to satisfy the gods".

Ultimately, the atheist or humanist must simply have “blind faith” in virtue. Christians on the other hand, derive moral standards from God...so we have confidence that morality is a genuine reflection of goodness, truth, and value.

I must admit I must be missing your point when you say "The Bible is the farthest thing on which to base human morality. THE farthest. Read it. You'll see."

Unless you are trying to argue that the many biblical examples of unethical behavior by supposed believers in God is hypocritical and proves the irrelevance of God’s existence. I don't think that proves or dis-proves God-given ethics any more than a "do-good" atheist proves the atheist position.

Christianity promotes and nurtures the virtuous life is what I was trying to say...

Hi VP,

I wrote, "The only thing I have seen is four pages of David posting ONLY Scripture verses -- without even ONE single personal word of explanation. If he, or you, cannot explain how those Scripture verses and passages prove the Roman Catholic doctrines -- all you both are doing is blowing smoke, i.e., as in 'smoke screens.'

Still, neither of you have shown one iota of evidence or proof of your doctrinal beliefs -- or that I have lied. But, I did see a lot of "smoke" rising on the horizon. Was this your "smoke screen" or your mind blowing its fuse while attempting to think up another false accusation?"

And, you respond, "So the Word of our Lord is a smoke screen. Incredible. David posted so many Scriptural support of 'our' doctrines."

Yes, it can be -- if one is using Scripture in an attempt to prove false teachings. A good example is the snake handlers in Tennessee who use Mark 16:18, "They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover" -- to build their false theology of handling deadly snakes and drinking poison to test God.

But, you and David have not even gone to this effort to prove your false teachings. All he has done is to list pages of Scripture -- with NO personal explanation of what they prove -- or if they prove anything.

Next, you tell me, "Please keep in mind, this was at your request. You said 'Show me' He showed you. Yet thats (sic) still not enough."

The ONLY thing David has shown is the he knows how to copy/paste pages of Scripture. There has not been ONE single explanation or proof of anything.

And, you tell me, "You have been shown, but if you cannot look past the preconceptions you have about the Church, you will never understand. I really feel sorry for you. You are willing to go down looking like a fool in order to escape admitting you were wrong."

Once again, for the umpteenth time, I will say to you and David: SHOW ME! So far, all you have shown is that David can copy/paste Scripture -- and that you can argue and be contentious.

Now, you get to your proof (?) -- "You said that Catholics worship statues. Thats (sic) one lie. You said Mary is at the same level as Jesus. Another lie. You said that I needed to dust my Bible off. Another lie. Should I go on, or do you 'get' it yet?"

WOW! That is real proof! "You said this -- but, it is a lie!" Wow! You should take that to the Supreme Court!

I sure would not want you as my defense attorney -- if that is YOUR level of proof.

Come on, VP and David -- let's get serious -- show us Biblical proof, with explanations (not just, "You are lying!"), of your doctrines or just admit that you have made false accusations against me by saying that I have lied -- and let's move on to more productive discussions; such as salvation and eternal security.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

yawn

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
yawn

NOW, THAT IS THE BEST EXPLANATION OF YOUR DOCTRINES YOU HAVE GIVEN TO DATE!

If there is one other person on this forum, even if you usually lurk, that doesn't believe that HOD and VP have "shown" Bill what he keeps on insisting to see, would you please speak up.

I am just curious if we are all in some sort of twilight zone or something.

This is insanity right here in black and white. Its kinda sad really, to see someone so unhinged that they can no longer comprehend the simplest of things.

HOD, VP,

You know I don't believe in the bible or god, but I felt like I have learned so much about the catholic religion from your post. I love learning so I thank you. I actually thought a lot like BG at one time, but the questions I had were completely answered and then some. I have seen where I had some misconceptions that are now set straight. Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,
I will still be in heaven one of these days enjoying fellowship with billions of other Christian believers and my Lord, Jesus Christ. Where will you be?

I saw this because it's a quote, & don't know why I'm surprised at the gall Bill has.

Nagel, didn't he just as good as say you're going to Hell?

Bill needs a good swift kick in his A-S-S!!!!
I just hope God has on a good pair of steal toe boots when he does it.

Bill,

All I heard you say was, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah..and more Blah.

You're not interested in catholic /protestant dialogs.....

You're a catholic hater..... probably have some unresolved issue or left-over, bad feelings towards your catholic ex-wife......you're spewing at all the catholics... and I think everyone on the forum is tired of the constant back and fourth...

Where is B50M? Please distract Bill from me.... Talk to us about your Wicca experience.
Someone start a "sage burning" thread.
Or what about people that ring bells in the corners of their homes to "cleanse it" I need a break from this "you didn't prove it" crapola.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:
What is the Koran?

quote:

Originally posted by themax:
Who cares, I know you must be prettier than a springtime sunrise. If I weren't happily married....

You silver tongue devil....you sure do know how to make a girl's heart flutter.
Where's my fan when I need it!!

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
Where is B50M? Please distract Bill from me.... Talk to us about your Wicca experience.
Someone start a "sage burning" thread.
Or what about people that ring bells in the corners of their homes to "cleanse it" I need a break from this "you didn't prove it" crapola.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvzJKXTmiM

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP,

I wrote, "The only thing I have seen is four pages of David posting ONLY Scripture verses -- without even ONE single personal word of explanation. If he, or you, cannot explain how those Scripture verses and passages prove the Roman Catholic doctrines -- all you both are doing is blowing smoke, i.e., as in 'smoke screens.'

Still, neither of you have shown one iota of evidence or proof of your doctrinal beliefs -- or that I have lied. But, I did see a lot of "smoke" rising on the horizon. Was this your "smoke screen" or your mind blowing its fuse while attempting to think up another false accusation?"

And, you respond, "So the Word of our Lord is a smoke screen. Incredible. David posted so many Scriptural support of 'our' doctrines."

Yes, it can be -- if one is using Scripture in an attempt to prove false teachings. A good example is the snake handlers in Tennessee who use Mark 16:18, "They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover" -- to build their false theology of handling deadly snakes and drinking poison to test God.

But, you and David have not even gone to this effort to prove your false teachings. All he has done is to list pages of Scripture -- with NO personal explanation of what they prove -- or if they prove anything.

AGAIN you lie, you putrid pile of feces...

EACH post, EACH message that David posted explained at the very front of it which issue the following quotes addressed.

the top said things like
why the eucharist is biblical

and then followed a dozen scriptural passages about it.. and so on.. and over and over..

David even covered things and explained things that *I* don't believe to be true... but whether or not i belive them i cannot deny for a minute that he covered the issue with scripture.

so.. now your are going to take the stance that someone used used a direct.....
....
....


ya know what...
i really am tired of you Bill.
you are a pathological liar.
you spin everything.... ok... you try to spin everything to benefit you and your angle... but you're so pathetic the only person you ever convince is YOU.
bill.... you are the most vile lying hunk of poop i've ever come across.
i know a guy.. .this is no joke.....
i know a guy who was sentanced to 10 years in prison for bad checks.. credt card fraud.. theft... and about a dozen other charges.
bill, HE is more honest than you.
my early 20's were spent with me being a lying cheating athiest SOB... and even in my worst days i was an angel compaired to you.

because i never tried to lead someone into hell like you are doing every day.

part of me wants to stab toothpicks in your eyes and scream DIE, YOU DEVIL!!!!
another part of me wants to wrap you in a blanket, get you a cup of hot cocoa and baby you because you are too stupid to cope with the real world.

but.. most of me wants to just put you on ignore.. because your old and senile and probably stricken with alzheimers and don't know what's real from one day to the next. so i wait paitiently until i see your obit and know you are finally at peace.
i repeat. if you are 'once saved, always saved' why wait? g'head and take the first train out. no reason to wait on the rest of us....

LMAO! Semi that scared me! Then I laughed.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:
LMAO! Semi that scared me! Then I laughed.

I changed it. Thought David & nagel might need a laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
AGAIN you lie, you putrid pile of feces...

EACH post, EACH message that David posted explained at the very front of it which issue the following quotes addressed.

the top said things like
why the eucharist is biblical

and then followed a dozen scriptural passages about it.. and so on.. and over and over..

David even covered things and explained things that *I* don't believe to be true... but whether or not i belive them i cannot deny for a minute that he covered the issue with scripture.

so.. now your are going to take the stance that someone used used a direct.....
....
....


ya know what...
i really am tired of you Bill.
you are a pathological liar.
you spin everything.... ok... you try to spin everything to benefit you and your angle... but you're so pathetic the only person you ever convince is YOU.
bill.... you are the most vile lying hunk of poop i've ever come across.
i know a guy.. .this is no joke.....
i know a guy who was sentanced to 10 years in prison for bad checks.. credt card fraud.. theft... and about a dozen other charges.
bill, HE is more honest than you.
my early 20's were spent with me being a lying cheating athiest SOB... and even in my worst days i was an angel compaired to you.

because i never tried to lead someone into hell like you are doing every day.

part of me wants to stab toothpicks in your eyes and scream DIE, YOU DEVIL!!!!
another part of me wants to wrap you in a blanket, get you a cup of hot cocoa and baby you because you are too stupid to cope with the real world.

but.. most of me wants to just put you on ignore.. because your old and senile and probably stricken with alzheimers and don't know what's real from one day to the next. so i wait paitiently until i see your obit and know you are finally at peace.
i repeat. if you are 'once saved, always saved' why wait? g'head and take the first train out. no reason to wait on the rest of us....

BUT, ARE WE STILL FRIENDS?

While I may not agree with the way Catholics use the Scriptures presented, they were presented.

Even through I personally, believe they are way off base in some of there teachings, at least I know why they are taught.

Good job HoD on defending your beliefs, I may not agree with them, but they are YOUR beliefs and I don't have to. Once again good job.

quote:

You're a catholic hater..... probably have some unresolved issue or left-over, bad feelings towards your catholic ex-wife......you're spewing at all the catholics... and I think everyone on the forum is tired of the constant back and fourth...

can i get a glittery AMEN????

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,
You're a catholic hater..... probably have some unresolved issue or left-over, bad feelings towards your catholic ex-wife.......

Wasn't his mother catholic? Could be some unresolved issues there too.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,
You're a catholic hater..... probably have some unresolved issue or left-over, bad feelings towards your catholic ex-wife.......

Wasn't his mother catholic? Could be some unresolved issues there too.

According to Bill, no she wasn't. However, there is another post where Bill states that one of his mothers-in-law gave him a rosary and a couple of other Catholic thingies, so I would presume she was.

I'm betting the Catholic church gave him the boot once he divorced and remarried. They put up with a lot, but adultery isn't on the list of forgivable sins.

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
Bill,

All I heard you say was, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah..and more Blah.

You're not interested in catholic /protestant dialogs.....

You're a catholic hater..... probably have some unresolved issue or left-over, bad feelings towards your catholic ex-wife......you're spewing at all the catholics... and I think everyone on the forum is tired of the constant back and fourth...

Where is B50M? Please distract Bill from me.... Talk to us about your Wicca experience.
Someone start a "sage burning" thread.
Or what about people that ring bells in the corners of their homes to "cleanse it" I need a break from this "you didn't prove it" crapola.

AS I SAID, EITHER ACCEPT RC DOCTRINES - OR YOU ARE A ROMAN CATHOLIC HATER! -- GUESS THAT PROVES MY POINT.

No. You don't have to ACCEPT. But it would be good form to RESPECT.

Bill did you and your first wife divorce??

Bill, I have a lot of friends that are Catholic, enjoy the video and then tell me if you can walk in this woman's shoes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c41sflWxWus

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:
No. You don't have to ACCEPT. But it would be good form to RESPECT.

Hi VP,

I can respect the person who believes these false doctrines -- because this person can be a Christian brother or sister since the doctrines we have discussed do not affect one's salvation.

However, I can never respect teachings and doctrines which are claimed to be of God -- but, are not Biblical. In Acts 17:11, the apostle Paul tells us to be like the Bereans -- testing what our teachers and leaders teach us -- against Scripture.

When I test the doctrines we have discussed against Scripture -- I find that they are not Biblical. So, I cannot respect those doctrines.

Yet, I can respect and have Christian love for that person or persons who believe these teachings.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by blue's:
Bill, I have a lot of friends that are Catholic, enjoy the video and then tell me if you can walk in this woman's shoes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c41sflWxWus

Hi Blue,

I, too, have Friends and loved ones who are Roman Catholic. Yes, this woman was an amazing woman -- and, if I had to bet, I would say she is in heaven right now -- in fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since I never had an opportunity to know her personally, I cannot say that I know she is in heaven -- but, I believe she is with God.

Quite honestly, you and I cannot say that any other person is or was saved. Only that person and God know for sure. I cannot tell you for sure that Billy Graham is saved. But, I believe he is, just as I believe Mother Teresa was saved and is in heaven today.

Could I do the wonderful things she did? No, I most likely could not. We never know what we can do until we are put to the test. However, in this case, I would bet against Bill Gray.

But, let's get to the crux of the issue of salvation. No one is saved through good works. We are told this in Ephesians 2:8-9. And, in Isaiah 64:6 we are told that our "good works" and "good deeds" are like filthy rags in the eyes of God. Our works and deeds can NEVER get anyone into heaven; not even Mother Teresa.

Our salvation comes, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else (Ephesians 2:8-9). However, once we are saved, our good works and good deeds are the "fruit" or result of our salvation. In other words, works cannot give us salvation. However, salvation can, and should, give us good works.

Do I believe that Mother Teresa and Billy Graham are Christian saints -- and that she is today a saint in heaven? Yes, I do. But, I only say that from seeing the "fruit" or works their salvation has brought forth.

Could I walk in her shoes? Not very likely. I am not as strong as that tiny woman was and is today in heaven. I can and did help a Friend move her furniture into her new home two weeks ago -- and then set up her beds, dressers, and such to get her settled into her new home. All I have left to do is to go hang one large painting, which requires another man to help me lift it and hang it.

Yes, I can still do all these physical things. But, am I strong enough to lift people's spirits and hearts, from the slums, and point them toward God as this tiny woman did throughout her lifetime? Probably not. Her memory is to be admired.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
This pain you have inside brings me to tears.
God does love you. You said in another thread that religion hurt you. I am so sorry for that.

Thank you, but don't waste your tears on me, I'm not worth it. There's people much more deserving of it than me.

Yes, you are worth it semi.

quote:

Originally posted by canade:
Yes, you are worth it semi.

Thank you, but can we agree to disagree?

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by canade:
Yes, you are worth it semi.

Thank you, but can we agree to disagree?

Semi,
Follow your heart, you'll find your inner peace. Don't be so hard on yourself.