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Hi Savin,

 

You are so right.  And, that is basically what I have tried to share in my two newest discussions:  "Heaven And Hell - What Will They Be Like?" and "Will There Be Animals In Heaven?"   

 

The first was to address Jennifer's question -- but, with a broader brush, touching on heaven and hell.  And, the second was to address a comment from Canade and from a Friend in my Friends Ministry mail list who this past year lost a pet which she loved dearly.

 

If you will look at these two, I believe you will find that you and I agree very much on the issue of heaven and what it will be like.  If you are on Facebook, let's become Friends and you can read these and other writings in My Posts.  My Facebook name is also Bill Gray.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Given what you have written, will you go to heaven or to purgatory?  If purgatory, how long will you have to stay there?

 

If I die with minor sins on my soul, I will go to Purgatory for a short

period of time.

 

Matt 5: 26

Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation.

"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid

the last penny."

 

The last Pope who died, is he is purgatory?   A Cardinal was quoted in New York saying that the Pope does not even know if he is saved.  How can that be?  And, if the Pope is in purgatory, does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics MUST go to purgatory and not to heaven?  Are they all still there -- or have some been promoted.

 

 Do you speak like a spoiled five yr. old because it makes you sound tough?

Any pope could be in Purgatory. Forget the Pope, your personal salvation is

between you and God, as is the Popes salvation.

 

Phil 2: 12 -  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear

and trembling work out your salvation.

  

What did the apostle Paul mean when he wrote, in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8. "For we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, andprefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

I'll finish this for you-----2 Cor 5: 10

[10] "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ,

that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he

hath done, whether it be good or evil."

 The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after

death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done

in the body.





How is it that the apostle Paul tells us we can leave this body and be at home with the Lord -- yet, you say we cannot, that first everyone MUST go to purgatory?  And, since Paul said this -- why is the Pope in purgatory?

 

NO one said ( read above) everyone must go to Purgatory, Paul didn't lie,

you did!----Why is the Pope in Purgatory? I didn't say he was, your five yr. old

fear said that, he could be there.

God doesn't cover sin, a covered sin is still sin and will not be permitted

to enter Heaven.

 

Vic, can you see our confusion?

 

There isn't any confusion, Purgatory has been Biblical before the time of

of Christ. Purgatory isn't a Catholic invention, it's Biblical in both the

old and new testaments.

 

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and

order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius,

Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D.

 

In 382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling

for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the

New Testament books in their present number and order.

 

In 1442  At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the

27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible

which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. All orthodox

branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 

 

iN 1536 -- In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German,

Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)

and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Why would he do that when he knew the Holy Spirit guided the

formation and closing of the Bible?  

 

1546 -- At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once

and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion

of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon

since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373,

787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making

it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point,

closing it for good.

 

Bill, your confusion comes from your ignorance of the Bible, what's included

in the Bible.

Moreover, your ignorance of the fact, that you can't pick and choose what

you consider hear say or fact. Even the symbolic is factual in the massage

that's being given

 

Jesus never said "I was just kidding"

 

 

I think the answer lies in ecclesiates 3:21.. It speaks of a mans spirit going upward and a beast's spirit going downward into the ground. Read what i posted earlier about my son and his toys. I think you will have perfect understanding in heaven and if you are there and your beloved pet is not then you will understand and be ok with that. Same Way as understanding if your loved ones arent there. I hope this makes sense and helps.
I think the answer lies in ecclesiates 3:21.. It speaks of a mans spirit going upward and a beast's spirit going downward into the ground. Read what i posted earlier about my son and his toys. I think you will have perfect understanding in heaven and if you are there and your beloved pet is not then you will understand and be ok with that. Same Way as understanding if your loved ones arent there. I hope this makes sense and helps.

Loved ones not there? How odd since that is one thing christians claim, that they will "meet again" all the friends and loved ones that have "gone before". My thread was not meant as any kind of put down. I was curious to know what someone that believed in a heaven thought it would be like for them. And no offense, but I don't think lying to a child is the right way to go.

Originally Posted by canade:

Bill Gray, I'm reposting this to make sure you don't miss my question.  How do you know animals do not have spirits?  Is there a scripture to prove this statement? If so, please give me the book, chapter and verse so that I can read it for myself. Thank you.

Because this verse says they do have spirits.  Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

 

 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

 20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Hi Canade,

You ask me, "Bill Gray, I'm reposting this to make sure you don't miss my question.  How do you know animals do not have spirits?  Is there a scripture to prove this statement? If so, please give me the book, chapter and verse so that I can read it for myself. Thank you.

Because this verse says they do have spirits.  Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The word "spirit" in Hebrew is the word "ruwach" and in Greek is the word "pneuma" from which we get our English word "pneumatic" as in air or air pump.  And both "ruwach" and "pneuma" can be translated as:  breath, wind, spirit, or Spirit.

You have quoted from the King James Bible.   The same passage from the NASB reads:

Ecc 3:19, For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20, All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Ecc 3:21, Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

You ask, "How do you know animals do not have spirits?"

Genesis 1:27-28, "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

And, in Genesis 3 we read that God told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed, they would die.   This death for man was both spiritual and physical. Spiritual death occurred immediately in that Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, lost their spiritual connection, i.e., communion, with God.  And physical death happened at that moment also -- except that God made it a process of death instead of an instant death.

The physical death process, through deterioration, began immediately for all the creation.  The spiritual death was only for humans, for only humans can sin.  In Romans 5:12-21 we read that through one man, Adam, sin and death entered the creation -- and through one Man, Jesus Christ, God has given man a way to regain his spiritual communion with God.  No where does God make this provision for animals.

Canade, I pray that this helps.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Given what you have written, will you go to heaven or to purgatory?  If purgatory, how long will you have to stay there?

 

If I die with minor sins on my soul, I will go to Purgatory for a short

period of time.

 

Matt 5: 26

Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation.

"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid

the last penny."

 

The last Pope who died, is he is purgatory?   A Cardinal was quoted in New York saying that the Pope does not even know if he is saved.  How can that be?  And, if the Pope is in purgatory, does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics MUST go to purgatory and not to heaven?  Are they all still there -- or have some been promoted.

 

 Do you speak like a spoiled five yr. old because it makes you sound tough?

Any pope could be in Purgatory. Forget the Pope, your personal salvation is

between you and God, as is the Popes salvation.

 

Phil 2: 12 -  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear

and trembling work out your salvation.

  

What did the apostle Paul mean when he wrote, in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8. "For we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, andprefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

I'll finish this for you-----2 Cor 5: 10

[10] "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ,

that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he

hath done, whether it be good or evil."

 The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after

death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done

in the body.

 

How is it that the apostle Paul tells us we can leave this body and be at home with the Lord -- yet, you say we cannot, that first everyone MUST go to purgatory?  And, since Paul said this -- why is the Pope in purgatory?

 

NO one said ( read above) everyone must go to Purgatory, Paul didn't lie,

you did!----Why is the Pope in Purgatory? I didn't say he was, your five yr. old

fear said that, he could be there.

God doesn't cover sin, a covered sin is still sin and will not be permitted

to enter Heaven.

 

Vic, can you see our confusion?

 

There isn't any confusion, Purgatory has been Biblical before the time of

of Christ. Purgatory isn't a Catholic invention, it's Biblical in both the

old and new testaments.

 

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and

order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius,

Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D.

 

In 382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling

for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the

New Testament books in their present number and order.

 

In 1442  At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the

27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible

which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. All orthodox

branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 

 

iN 1536 -- In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German,

Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)

and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Why would he do that when he knew the Holy Spirit guided the

formation and closing of the Bible?  

 

1546 -- At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once

and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion

of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon

since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373,

787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making

it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point,

closing it for good.

 

Bill, your confusion comes from your ignorance of the Bible, what's included

in the Bible.

Moreover, your ignorance of the fact, that you can't pick and choose what

you consider hear say or fact. Even the symbolic is factual in the massage

that's being given

 

Jesus never said "I was just kidding"

 

------------------------------------------

Bill, could you get back to me on this? 

 

 

Best working...Jesus came to earth and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins so that all may come to Him. But you must believe that it is only through His sacrifice and not of your own good works that you will be saved. And furthermore repent of your sins and ask forgiveness... otherwise why in the world would God have sent Jesus if we had it in the bag  all along?

BTW...no offense taken about my son and his toys. I didn't lie to him...I never said that there would be toys in heaven. Even if he had died as a child he would not care about toys in heaven. Everything you desire will be in Heaven...that is a true statement. Also true is this...your desire will be to worship God...Also..Who you really are doesn't have an age on it... You don't think your grandma will be 90 in heaven and only want to sit around crocheting do you?  

All he desired would be there, and right then, right at that moment he desired toys. OK, not out and out lied, misled-deceived.

----------------------

You don't think your grandma will be 90 in heaven and only want to sit around crocheting do you?  

---------------------------------

If that was what she enjoyed and it made her happy, and it's a heaven, why wouldn't she sit around crocheting? Why should she lose interest in something she loved?

Are we gonna circle that wagon again? LOL  JK... In heaven our desires will be different. I can't be so presumptous to say that there will definitely not be toys and crocheting in Heaven ..but I honestly believe that those things will not be our desire. But your grandma also won't be a wrinkled gray haired lady...all of those things deal with time and there is no time in heaven. So the two ends of the time/age spectrum...toys and crocheting would be non issues.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Someday we will all know the truth...it may be 20 yrs or it may be 70 but until then we can respectfully disagree.   And if I am wrong and you never repent and you are in  heaven then look me up..

--------------------------------------------------


Once more, I have nothing to repent.

==============================

You sound like you have some catching up to do.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Canade,

You ask me, "Bill Gray, I'm reposting this to make sure you don't miss my question.  How do you know animals do not have spirits?  Is there a scripture to prove this statement? If so, please give me the book, chapter and verse so that I can read it for myself. Thank you.

Because this verse says they do have spirits.  Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The word "spirit" in Hebrew is the word "ruwach" and in Greek is the word "pneuma" from which we get our English word "pneumatic" as in air or air pump.  And both "ruwach" and "pneuma" can be translated as:  breath, wind, spirit, or Spirit.

You have quoted from the King James Bible.   The same passage from the NASB reads:

Ecc 3:19, For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20, All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Ecc 3:21, Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

You ask, "How do you know animals do not have spirits?"

Genesis 1:27-28, "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

And, in Genesis 3 we read that God told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed, they would die.   This death for man was both spiritual and physical. Spiritual death occurred immediately in that Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, lost their spiritual connection, i.e., communion, with God.  And physical death happened at that moment also -- except that God made it a process of death instead of an instant death.

The physical death process, through deterioration, began immediately for all the creation.  The spiritual death was only for humans, for only humans can sin.  In Romans 5:12-21 we read that through one man, Adam, sin and death entered the creation -- and through one Man, Jesus Christ, God has given man a way to regain his spiritual communion with God.  No where does God make this provision for animals.

Canade, I pray that this helps.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


------------

All you've proven to me is that different translations can change the meaning of a word or entire verses.  I am not saying one version of the Bible is better than another, I'm just saying you don't really know whether animals have spirits/souls or not.

Originally Posted by canade:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Canade,

You ask me, "Bill Gray, I'm reposting this to make sure you don't miss my question.  How do you know animals do not have spirits?  Is there a scripture to prove this statement? If so, please give me the book, chapter and verse so that I can read it for myself. Thank you.

Because this verse says they do have spirits.  Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The word "spirit" in Hebrew is the word "ruwach" and in Greek is the word "pneuma" from which we get our English word "pneumatic" as in air or air pump.  And both "ruwach" and "pneuma" can be translated as:  breath, wind, spirit, or Spirit.

You have quoted from the King James Bible.   The same passage from the NASB reads:

Ecc 3:19, For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20, All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Ecc 3:21, Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

You ask, "How do you know animals do not have spirits?"

Genesis 1:27-28, "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

And, in Genesis 3 we read that God told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed, they would die.   This death for man was both spiritual and physical. Spiritual death occurred immediately in that Adam and Eve, and all their descendants, lost their spiritual connection, i.e., communion, with God.  And physical death happened at that moment also -- except that God made it a process of death instead of an instant death.

The physical death process, through deterioration, began immediately for all the creation.  The spiritual death was only for humans, for only humans can sin.  In Romans 5:12-21 we read that through one man, Adam, sin and death entered the creation -- and through one Man, Jesus Christ, God has given man a way to regain his spiritual communion with God.  No where does God make this provision for animals.

Canade, I pray that this helps.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


------------

All you've proven to me is that different translations can change the meaning of a word or entire verses.  I am not saying one version of the Bible is better than another, I'm just saying you don't really know whether animals have spirits/souls or not.

__________________

 

Here are some examples of the same verses in different translations, some use breath, most use spirit. 

 

Ecclesiastes 3:19-25

Good News Translation (GNT)

 

19 After all, the same fate awaits human beings and animals alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either.20 They are both going to the same place—the dust. They both came from it; they will both go back to it.21 How can anyone be sure that the human spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?22 So I realized then that the best thing we can do is enjoy what we have worked for. There is nothing else we can do.[a] There is no way for us to know what will happen after we die.

  

Ecclesiastes 3:19-25

Amplified Bible (AMP)

19For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even [in the end] one thing befalls them both. As the one dies, so dies the other. Yes, they all have one breath and spirit, so that a [a]man has no preeminence over a beast; for all is vanity (emptiness, falsity, and futility)!

    20All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.     21Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

    22So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his portion. For who shall bring him back to see what will happen after he is gone?

 

Ecclesiastes 3:19-25

Common English Bible (CEB)

19 because human beings and animals share the same fate. One dies just like the other—both have the same life-breath. Humans are no better off than animals because everything is pointless.

 20 All go to the same place:    all are from the dust;    all return to the dust.

 21 Who knows if a human being’s life-breath rises upward while an animal’s life-breath descends into the earth? 22 So I perceived that there was nothing better for human beings but to enjoy what they do because that’s what they’re allotted in life. Who, really, is able to see what will happen in the future?

 

Ecclesiastes 3:19-25

English Standard Version (ESV)

19  For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.[a] 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

 

Hi Canade,

 

If you will visit:  http://www.blueletterbible.org...ngs=H7307&t=NASB  you will find the Strong's Concordance definitions of the word "ruwach"  which is translated spirit and breath in the Old Testament.  The meanings are listed in the order of their usage:

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

a) breath

b) wind

1) of heaven

2) quarter (of wind), side

3) breath of air

4) air, gas

5) vain, empty thing

c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)

1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour

2) courage

3) temper, anger

4) impatience, patience

5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)

6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse

7) prophetic spirit

d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

e) spirit (as seat of emotion)

1) desire

2) sorrow, trouble

f) spirit

1) as seat or organ of mental acts

2) rarely of the will

3) as seat especially of moral character

g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy

2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning

3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power

4) as endowing men with various gifts

5) as energy of life

6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory

7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

 

When translating the Bible, there are two common methods:   Formal Equivalent (word-for-word) and Dynamic Equivalent (thought-for-thought).  Then, there are paraphrase Bibles and amplified Bibles which are basically more commentary and not true Bibles.

 

Choosing A Bible Translation:

http://www.yrm.org/choosing_bible_translation.htm

 

When I am doing an in-depth Bible study, I will always use the word-for-word translations for these stay closer to the original intent.

 

At other times, when I am writing, I may use a thought-for-thought translation -- and sometimes even a paraphrase or amplified if it expresses the thought I am sharing more clearly.

 

When the Bible translators, especially for the word-for-word translations, chose a word, i.e., breath or spirit -- they chose the one which they felt most closely fit the original intent of the writer.

 

For this reason, I prefer to use either the NASB or the NKJV Bibles in my studies, sometimes the KJV.  And, as in this case, I have to look at what other portions of the Bible have to say on that subject -- and, then decide which I believe to be correct.

 

In the case of animal breath or spirit -- I stood Ecclesiastes alongside Genesis -- and the meaning came out breath.   This is how I came to my conclusion.  Could I be wrong?  Yes.  But, in this case, I do believe the Bible bears out my conclusion.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by savinforarainyday:

That is the epitome of Love...that someone would die that you can live. Soldiers who love their country go into a battlefield understanding that they may well die for the thing they love...it is the ultimate sacrifice.

 

In my scenario the soldier is an adult who signs up to go into the armed services. A soldier knows his risks. One must only watch the nightly news to know there is a risk of coming home in a body bag. Jesus willingly laid down his life.  ...So don't try to compare this to someone who kills his child in cold blood. I think you are just wanting to be argumentative and are difficult to please... So far you have tried to twist several things that I have said. I am not down with that.

 As I said before..if you are in heaven I would personally like to meet you. That was not meant to be rude but i really hope to see you. God has done every possible thing to accommodate you in heaven..If you think you have no sin then you call God a liar...I am not being presumptous. It is truth..You have sinned...Mother Teresa has sinned ...the Pope sins. I sin...everyone who is human sins. whether in thought or action.. you sin ...most likely every day like the rest of us humans.

1 John 1:8-10 ... If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." Gonna move on with life now.....

 

Never posted that parents don't know the risk. I said no loving, rational, sane. normal parent would hand a child over for certain torture and death. If jesus did it why do people say "god gave his only begotten son"? Like that's a good thing. Arguing and hard to please? Then stop telling me I have to repent. You come at me with that crap when you don't know me so of course I'm going to come back at you.

God, the father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit comprise the Trinity. The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit. Three distinct personalities in one being...Think of H2O..As a liquid it is water...as a solid it is ice and as a vapor it is steam...but they are all H2O.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Given what you have written, will you go to heaven or to purgatory?  If purgatory, how long will you have to stay there?

 

If I die with minor sins on my soul, I will go to Purgatory for a short

period of time.

 

Matt 5: 26

Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation.

"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid

the last penny."

 

The last Pope who died, is he is purgatory?   A Cardinal was quoted in New York saying that the Pope does not even know if he is saved.  How can that be?  And, if the Pope is in purgatory, does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics MUST go to purgatory and not to heaven?  Are they all still there -- or have some been promoted.

 

 Do you speak like a spoiled five yr. old because it makes you sound tough?

Any pope could be in Purgatory. Forget the Pope, your personal salvation is

between you and God, as is the Popes salvation.

 

Phil 2: 12 -  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear

and trembling work out your salvation.

  

What did the apostle Paul mean when he wrote, in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8. "For we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, andprefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

I'll finish this for you-----2 Cor 5: 10

[10] "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ,

that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he

hath done, whether it be good or evil."

 The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after

death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done

in the body.

 

How is it that the apostle Paul tells us we can leave this body and be at home with the Lord -- yet, you say we cannot, that first everyone MUST go to purgatory?  And, since Paul said this -- why is the Pope in purgatory?

 

NO one said ( read above) everyone must go to Purgatory, Paul didn't lie,

you did!----Why is the Pope in Purgatory? I didn't say he was, your five yr. old

fear said that, he could be there.

God doesn't cover sin, a covered sin is still sin and will not be permitted

to enter Heaven.

 

Vic, can you see our confusion?

 

There isn't any confusion, Purgatory has been Biblical before the time of

of Christ. Purgatory isn't a Catholic invention, it's Biblical in both the

old and new testaments.

 

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and

order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius,

Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D.

 

In 382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling

for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the

New Testament books in their present number and order.

 

In 1442  At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the

27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible

which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. All orthodox

branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 

 

iN 1536 -- In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German,

Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)

and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Why would he do that when he knew the Holy Spirit guided the

formation and closing of the Bible?  

 

1546 -- At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once

and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion

of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon

since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373,

787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making

it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point,

closing it for good.

 

Bill, your confusion comes from your ignorance of the Bible, what's included

in the Bible.

Moreover, your ignorance of the fact, that you can't pick and choose what

you consider hear say or fact. Even the symbolic is factual in the massage

that's being given

 

Jesus never said "I was just kidding"

 

------------------------------------------

Bill, could you get back to me on this? 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Bill, have you had enough time to answer this

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Invictus...Know what ...I find that last remark offensive...and I don't even know Bill. I have not been on the forum since they changed the format but one day this week I thought I would give it another try. I come on here to share ideas, get a new insight, interact with likeminded people.etc. This was very childish. I may revisit the forum at some point in the future ...but I believe I am done on here for a while. People should grow up...Bill is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else. He doesn't attack people as far as I can see...he says what he believes to be the truth...I haven't seen him call anyone a devil. BTW..I would have been just as offended if you had said this about any other member ..even bestworking ... you can  disagree with someone and still have respect for humankind.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

 

I was reminded of the homeless man who seemed to be high on drugs and full of anger as he stalked me late one evening.  Yet, when I stopped, put my hand on his shoulder, and ask if I could pray for him -- he became meek as a lamb.  And, after I prayed for him, we hugged. 

Bill


_____________________________

You should call the TD & your local newspaper & tell this story. People need to know so they can  come to you so you can put your hand on their shoulder & hug them.

Invictus...Know what ...I find that last remark offensive...and I don't even know Bill. I have not been on the forum since they changed the format but one day this week I thought I would give it another try. I come on here to share ideas, get a new insight, interact with likeminded people.etc. This was very childish. I may revisit the forum at some point in the future ...but I believe I am done on here for a while. People should grow up...Bill is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else. He doesn't attack people as far as I can see...he says what he believes to be the truth...I haven't seen him call anyone a devil. BTW..I would have been just as offended if you had said this about any other member ..even bestworking ... you can  disagree with someone and still have respect for humankind.

------------------------------------------------------

I'll tell you what I've noticed. Any time bill seems to have "stepped in it" with his little snarky remarks and insults, in comes an ID we rarely see or is "new", to take up for him while completely "ignoring" his posts. Vic's post offended you but bill's posts insulting vic's and others religion doesn't?  He's entitled to his opinion but no one else is entitled to theirs? You need to remember you're dealing with adults on this forum and this grade school stuff doesn't fly. I'd suggest that you either get better at it or stop doing it. If anyone needs to learn to show respect it's bill. And as long as that isn't happening he will get back what he sends out.

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Given what you have written, will you go to heaven or to purgatory?  If purgatory, how long will you have to stay there?

 

If I die with minor sins on my soul, I will go to Purgatory for a short

period of time.

 

Matt 5: 26

Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation.

"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid

the last penny."

 

The last Pope who died, is he is purgatory?   A Cardinal was quoted in New York saying that the Pope does not even know if he is saved.  How can that be?  And, if the Pope is in purgatory, does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics MUST go to purgatory and not to heaven?  Are they all still there -- or have some been promoted.

 

 Do you speak like a spoiled five yr. old because it makes you sound tough?

Any pope could be in Purgatory. Forget the Pope, your personal salvation is

between you and God, as is the Popes salvation.

 

Phil 2: 12 -  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear

and trembling work out your salvation.

  

What did the apostle Paul mean when he wrote, in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8. "For we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, andprefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

I'll finish this for you-----2 Cor 5: 10

[10] "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ,

that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he

hath done, whether it be good or evil."

 The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after

death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done

in the body.

 

How is it that the apostle Paul tells us we can leave this body and be at home with the Lord -- yet, you say we cannot, that first everyone MUST go to purgatory?  And, since Paul said this -- why is the Pope in purgatory?

 

NO one said ( read above) everyone must go to Purgatory, Paul didn't lie,

you did!----Why is the Pope in Purgatory? I didn't say he was, your five yr. old

fear said that, he could be there.

God doesn't cover sin, a covered sin is still sin and will not be permitted

to enter Heaven.

 

Vic, can you see our confusion?

 

There isn't any confusion, Purgatory has been Biblical before the time of

of Christ. Purgatory isn't a Catholic invention, it's Biblical in both the

old and new testaments.

 

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and

order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius,

Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D.

 

In 382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling

for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the

New Testament books in their present number and order.

 

In 1442  At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the

27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible

which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. All orthodox

branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 

 

iN 1536 -- In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German,

Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)

and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Why would he do that when he knew the Holy Spirit guided the

formation and closing of the Bible?  

 

1546 -- At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once

and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion

of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon

since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373,

787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making

it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point,

closing it for good.

 

Bill, your confusion comes from your ignorance of the Bible, what's included

in the Bible.

Moreover, your ignorance of the fact, that you can't pick and choose what

you consider hear say or fact. Even the symbolic is factual in the massage

that's being given

 

Jesus never said "I was just kidding"

 

------------------------------------------

Bill, could you get back to me on this? 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Bill, have you had enough time to answer this

--------------------------------------------------------------

OK , this just might be the last time I ask for your

answer, The next time I'll answer for you and then

your answer will be more agreeable

 

LK 10: 16-18

[16] He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. [17] And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying: Lord, the devils also are subject to us in thy name. [18] And he said to them: I saw   Bill Gray like lightning falling from heaven.

 

==========================================================

Bill Gray offline

          Old Faithful

 

          February 28, 2012 2:34 PM
 
Hi Vic,

 

There is an amazing "new" book on the market which does give us a lot of knowledge about heaven and hell.  Vic, you might want to visit a Christian bookstore and see if you can find a copy.  It is called "The Bible" and it has a world, no, a universe, of knowledge in it.  It even speaks quite a bit about heaven.

 

Of course, it does not mention purgatory.   But, there is good reason it omits that wee bit of info.

=======================================================

Bill, I've read the Bible and accepted the teachings the way God meant

them and not the way I feel they should read.

 

You always ask everyone to prove from the Bible what they say,

but you never ask this of yourself.  One word for you-- Letitgo

 

 

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Vic,

 

Given what you have written, will you go to heaven or to purgatory?  If purgatory, how long will you have to stay there?

 

If I die with minor sins on my soul, I will go to Purgatory for a short

period of time.

 

Matt 5: 26

Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation.

"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid

the last penny."

 

The last Pope who died, is he is purgatory?   A Cardinal was quoted in New York saying that the Pope does not even know if he is saved.  How can that be?  And, if the Pope is in purgatory, does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics MUST go to purgatory and not to heaven?  Are they all still there -- or have some been promoted.

 

 Do you speak like a spoiled five yr. old because it makes you sound tough?

Any pope could be in Purgatory. Forget the Pope, your personal salvation is

between you and God, as is the Popes salvation.

 

Phil 2: 12 -  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed,

not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear

and trembling work out your salvation.

  

What did the apostle Paul mean when he wrote, in 2 Corinthians 5:7-8. "For we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, andprefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

I'll finish this for you-----2 Cor 5: 10

[10] "For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ,

that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he

hath done, whether it be good or evil."

 The proper things of the body: In the particular judgment, immediately after

death, the soul is rewarded or punished according to what it has done

in the body.

 

How is it that the apostle Paul tells us we can leave this body and be at home with the Lord -- yet, you say we cannot, that first everyone MUST go to purgatory?  And, since Paul said this -- why is the Pope in purgatory?

 

NO one said ( read above) everyone must go to Purgatory, Paul didn't lie,

you did!----Why is the Pope in Purgatory? I didn't say he was, your five yr. old

fear said that, he could be there.

God doesn't cover sin, a covered sin is still sin and will not be permitted

to enter Heaven.

 

Vic, can you see our confusion?

 

There isn't any confusion, Purgatory has been Biblical before the time of

of Christ. Purgatory isn't a Catholic invention, it's Biblical in both the

old and new testaments.

 

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and

order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius,

Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D.

 

In 382 Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling

for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the

New Testament books in their present number and order.

 

In 1442  At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the

27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible

which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. All orthodox

branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon. 

 

iN 1536 -- In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German,

Luther removed 4 N.T. books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)

and placed them in an appendix saying they were less than canonical.

Why would he do that when he knew the Holy Spirit guided the

formation and closing of the Bible?  

 

1546 -- At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once

and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion

of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon

since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373,

787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making

it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point,

closing it for good.

 

Bill, your confusion comes from your ignorance of the Bible, what's included

in the Bible.

Moreover, your ignorance of the fact, that you can't pick and choose what

you consider hear say or fact. Even the symbolic is factual in the massage

that's being given

 

Jesus never said "I was just kidding"

 

------------------------------------------

Bill, could you get back to me on this? 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Bill, have you had enough time to answer this

--------------------------------------------------------------

OK , this just might be the last time I ask for your

answer, The next time I'll answer for you and then

your answer will be more agreeable

 

LK 10: 16-18

[16] He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. [17] And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying: Lord, the devils also are subject to us in thy name. [18] And he said to them: I saw   Bill Gray like lightning falling from heaven.

 

==========================================================

Bill Gray offline

          Old Faithful

 

          February 28, 2012 2:34 PM
 
Hi Vic,

 

There is an amazing "new" book on the market which does give us a lot of knowledge about heaven and hell.  Vic, you might want to visit a Christian bookstore and see if you can find a copy.  It is called "The Bible" and it has a world, no, a universe, of knowledge in it.  It even speaks quite a bit about heaven.

 

Of course, it does not mention purgatory.   But, there is good reason it omits that wee bit of info.

=======================================================

Bill, I've read the Bible and accepted the teachings the way God meant

them and not the way I feel they should read.

 

You always ask everyone to prove from the Bible what they say,

but you never ask this of yourself.  One word for you-- Letitgo

 

======================================================

Seriously Bill, you need to put on your big girl panties and finish what

you have started with your cowardly innuendos and false statements.

 

God Bless have a Hunky Dory Day

 

 

 

 

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