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Some religions say that when we die, that are souls or spirts go to heaven, others say not until the rapture, others say not until the ressurection, the athiest say we go no where. Then you got those that say they know because of a near-death experience.  Do we really know for sure.

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I must admit I'm more interested in human behavior. I'm a constant observer. I've watched you post for a few years here. You and a particular other ID(multiple ID'S) we all know well but I won't mention. 

 

You have a unique pattern of posting that is unique just to you alone. 

 

It's interesting to watch. 

Last edited by Seven

Hi Girl,

 

The Bible is pretty clear.  Until Jesus was crucified and resurrected, all believers who died went into Hades/Paradise (also called the Bosom of Abraham) -- and all non-believers went into Hades/Torment. You can read about this in Luke 16:19-31.

 

When Christ resurrected He led the Old Testament believers who were in Hades/Paradise into heaven.  This you will find in Ephesians 4:8.  Christ tells us very clearly in John 14:6 that no one can enter into the presence of the Father except through Christ Himself.   That is why He led the believers from Hades/Paradise into heaven.  Finally, they could enter the presence of God the Father through Jesus Christ.   At that time Jesus effectively closed the door on Hades/Paradise -- and moved it to Heaven/Paradise.

 

Hades/Torment is still actively open and doing a landslide business.  That is where all non-believers go when they die and where they will stay until they are resurrected into their immortal bodies to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.  From there the go into eternal destruction, the lake of fire, hell (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

After the resurrection of Christ and his relocating of Hades/Paradise into heaven -- now all believers, upon death, go immediately into the presence of God.  Our bodies will go into the grave -- but, our spirit goes immediately into heaven.  

 

2 Corinthians 5:4-8, "For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.  Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.  Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord -- for we walk by faith, not by sight -- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

 

Philippians 1:21-23, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.   But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.   But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better."

 

Our physical bodies, our shell, will be in the grave -- but we, in spirit, will be in heaven in the presence of God.

 

At the Rapture (John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 13:18) those who have died in Christ will be raised first - and a split second later we believers who are still alive will be taken up with them to meet the Lord in the air.  And, as we are told in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, we will receive our immortal bodies.

 

All believers will be in heaven during the seven year Tribulation (Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9) -- where the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) will take place, a judgment of rewards where all believers will receive our own righteous robe of pure white linen (Rev 19:8).  Then, the Wedding Feast of the Lamb will take place when Christ will wed His Bride, the church (Rev 19:6-9).

 

At the end of the seven year Tribulation -- Jesus Christ will return to earth -- His Second Coming in Glory, the Lion of Judah.  All Old Testament believers, New Testament believers (the church, the Bride of Christ), and the martyred Tribulation saints will return with Him.

 

Jesus will establish His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom on earth and will rule, the perfect theocracy, from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

 

After the Millennial Kingdom, all non-believers will be resurrected into their immortal bodies and will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment -- and from there they will go into hell (Rev 20:11-15).

 

Then will come the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem when Jesus Christ will lead all believers into eternal life in the joyful presence of God.

 

That, my Friend, is the abbreviated version of what happens when we die.  And, we believers need to get as many folks as possible ready to be taken into the eternal presence of God.  That is why Christ instructed all believers to share His Gospel with all the world (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- the Great Commission.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Seven:

I must admit I'm more interested in human behavior. I'm a constant observer. I've watched you post for a few years here. You and a particular other ID(multiple ID'S) we all know well but I won't mention. 

 

You have a unique pattern of posting that is unique just to you alone. 

 

It's interesting to watch. 

It was interesting for me to watch a few years ago, but now it's a boring,

sad comedy of a lying misfit introducing himself with various bogus ID's

of imaginary frontmen asking himself the same damm questions over and

over again. Golly gee freaking whiz,,,,,I wonder what the answer will be

this time.

 

If, the Protestants are correct, one may got to heaven or hell,  If the Catholics are correct, some may go to purgatory before ascending to heaven.  If the Jews are correct, some will go to purgatory before heaven, but none to hell.  If the Muslims are correct, some will go to paradise, Christians to the second mansion of hell, non-compliant muslims to the first mansion and so on.  One rises to the next highest mansion after 100 years of torment if they are people of the book and eventually rise to paradise. If the Hindus or Buddhists are correct one rises to the cosmos, or like the terminator -- I'll be back.  If the atheists are correct, none of us will know it. 

Upon death a person who was an observer becomes a non-observer. Those present living remain observers of the dead person. The living observers react in many ways which are no longer a property of the dead person.

 

The two states, observer and non-observer from that point are the only difference in the two. At the point of death the two masses continue the same in that their elementary particles continue in their business of experiencing one or all of four known weak or strong interactions.

 

 Mass and energy being the same leaves spin and charge the outcome of any particle which then is just a tiny bundle of energy that lies somewhere on the spectrum of light.

 

That being said, nothing has changed from the light that God said “let there be”. Everything is just a particle of energy called light. Like the man said “I think therefore I am”. Observation is the key to all arguments.

Quail, my Friend,

 

Observation may be the key to all arguments.   But, God's Word is the key to eternal life in Christ.

 

Which do you choose -- to win the argument OR to have eternal life in the presence of God?

 

Win or lose the arguments -- the choice a person makes in this life - SON or NO SON - is the key that opens the doors:  Door 1:  heaven in the presence of God, eternally OR Door 2:  hell void of the presence of God, eternally.  

 

When one breathes that last breath in this mortal body -- that choice is set in concrete, NEVER to be changed.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 John 5-12 - Bible Inspired By God

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Last edited by Bill Gray

 

Who in holy hell edited my last filibuster to not include the last paragraph?

 Which said: “I have made observations of virtual masses on this forum in the form of semiannuals, sevens, etc. of whom I regret having given being.”

 

Incidentally being the observer I am I couldn’t help but notice that when the world renowned scientist Quaildog, whom I had great admiration for, was banned it resulted in the “guest count” dropping from a thousand guests at any given time to a pitiful 5-60. I suspect that one or more of the resident shameless w***** have been given hall monitor priviliges. That being the case I have nothing else to say to a crowd of five or six registered members and a handful of guests. So kiss my ass and ban me. I have offers from other forums of notoriety.

Originally Posted by prissy442:

 

Who in holy hell edited my last filibuster to not include the last paragraph?

 Which said: “I have made observations of virtual masses on this forum in the form of semiannuals, sevens, etc. of whom I regret having given being.”

 

Incidentally being the observer I am I couldn’t help but notice that when the world renowned scientist Quaildog, whom I had great admiration for, was banned it resulted in the “guest count” dropping from a thousand guests at any given time to a pitiful 5-60. I suspect that one or more of the resident shameless w***** have been given hall monitor priviliges. That being the case I have nothing else to say to a crowd of five or six registered members and a handful of guests. So kiss my ass and ban me. I have offers from other forums of notoriety.

So mote it be.

One of the sad effects of ALZ is the occasional flash of one's old self, plus the delusions,  Sounds like Priss was a high school physics teacher at one time, before he begin his slow, now  precipitous, descent into ALZ.  Just hope his delusions concerning which gender he preferred emerged after he left the teaching profession.  

 

Priss, for any good that thou hast done, thee has been here much too long.  Get thee hence, go thou home. 

Originally Posted by prissy442:
Originally Posted by prissy442:

 

Who in holy hell edited my last filibuster to not include the last paragraph?

 Which said: “I have made observations of virtual masses on this forum in the form of semiannuals, sevens, etc. of whom I regret having given being.”

 

Incidentally being the observer I am I couldn’t help but notice that when the world renowned scientist Quaildog, whom I had great admiration for, was banned it resulted in the “guest count” dropping from a thousand guests at any given time to a pitiful 5-60. I suspect that one or more of the resident shameless w***** have been given hall monitor priviliges. That being the case I have nothing else to say to a crowd of five or six registered members and a handful of guests. So kiss my ass and ban me. I have offers from other forums of notoriety.

So mote it be.

 

 

Profanity does little to enhance your position as a credible person of knowledge.

Especially on a Religion Forum.

 

Originally Posted by prissy442:

Incidentally being the observer I am I couldn’t help but notice that when the world renowned scientist Quaildog, whom I had great admiration for, was banned it resulted in the “guest count” dropping from a thousand guests at any given time to a pitiful 5-60. That being the case I have nothing else to say to a crowd of five or six registered members and a handful of guests. So kiss my ass and ban me. I have offers from other forums of notoriety.

______

So now you're calling yourself a world renowned scientist?? I'm not surprised at the admiration of yourself, just that you would actually admit it. The "guest count" hasn't dropped at all because you're still here. As to those offers you have from other forums? Don't let the TD forum door hit you in the butt on your way out.......bye, bye! (Your ego is right up there with the resident troll)

Pitiful little man.......you need to take your meds!

Originally Posted by prissy442:

 

Who in holy hell edited my last filibuster to not include the last paragraph?

 Which said: “I have made observations of virtual masses on this forum in the form of semiannuals, sevens, etc. of whom I regret having given being.”

 

Incidentally being the observer I am I couldn’t help but notice that when the world renowned scientist Quaildog, whom I had great admiration for, was banned it resulted in the “guest count” dropping from a thousand guests at any given time to a pitiful 5-60. I suspect that one or more of the resident shameless w***** have been given hall monitor priviliges. That being the case I have nothing else to say to a crowd of five or six registered members and a handful of guests. So kiss my ass and ban me. I have offers from other forums of notoriety.

 

You(Rramm) lost all credibility here years ago and have nobody to blame for that but yourself. 

 

It's been painful(and at times, quite comical) to watch your mental deterioration in such a public way over the years. For your sake and that of your family I hope you get the mental help you so desperately need. 

quote:  Originally Posted by prissy442:

semi is the forum snitch and apparently she is a mod.  

Quail, my Friend,

 

I must admit that I have wondered about the same thing.  Several times before, in years past, she has claimed to have "inside influence" with the TimesDaily Forum mods.  And, I have seen her post negative comments about people and ethnic groups which would have had most folks banned, but not her.   Her posts are full of bitterness and hate -- which would have most forum members in hot water, but not her.   Hmmm?

 

And, very recently one of her buddies posted that Bill Gray should be killed.  I reported that post and that specific post was deleted -- but, the person who posted it was not affected in any way, still posting.

 

Should an actively posting forum member be a mod?  Does Tennessee Valley Printing management need to do some re-evaluating?

 

So, what is Chick's connection with the TimesDaily and Tennessee Valley Printing?   Inquiring minds want to know!

 

Bless her little heart!

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat-2_TEXT

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In Bill Gray's latest smug and dogmatic dissertation, above, this statement appears:

 

<<<When Christ resurrected He led the Old Testament believers who were in Hades/Paradise into heaven.  This you will find in Ephesians 4:8.  Christ tells us very clearly in John 14:6 that no one can enter into the presence of the Father except through Christ Himself.   That is why He led the believers from Hades/Paradise into heaven.  Finally, they could enter the presence of God the Father through Jesus Christ.   At that time Jesus effectively closed the door on Hades/Paradise -- and moved it to Heaven/Paradise.>>>

 

Bill Gray's flight of imaginative speculation in his flawed, self-serving take on these two passages exemplifies the old adage, "When one is a hammer, all he sees is nails."

 

Bill, invokes Ephesians 4:8 and John 14:6 in support of his bizarre and un-scriptural   end times theology.  Before examining these passages, I reproduce them below in full, so that the reader will have ready reference to them:

 

Ephesians 4:8:

 

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men."

 

John 14:6:

 

 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

Looking first at the second of these, John 14:6, one has to wonder how Bill wrested from that passage the notion that Jesus was speaking of some future event in which the saved believer enters Heaven and encounters the actual presence of God Himself.  The passage simply does not support that thesis.  Quite simply, what Bill has done here is to construct an inappropriate paraphrase for John 14:6 to make it seem to say something that it does NOT say.  Bill's paraphrastic distortion of the verse is this:  "they could enter the presence of the Father through Jesus Christ."  See what Bill has done here.  He has taken the general principle enunciated by Jesus, namely that He (Jesus) is the One through whom the sinner must come for salvation through the grace of God and has imaginatively misinterpreted it--and misstated it--to make it seem to apply to some perceived future event in which Jesus escorts the saved out of Paradise and into Heaven and the "presence of God the Father."

 

Jesus did not say that "no one cometh [into the presence of] the Father" He simply said that no one cometh "unto the Father."  There is a difference and no hair-splitting is involved in recognizing that difference.  What Jesus was teaching was the general principle that salvation from God is offered through Himself, Jesus Christ.  Bill, in desperately seeking support for his particular end times fixation is "finding" something in John 14:6 that simply is not there. This is a case of eisegesis, that flawed modality of interpretation that Bill himself has so often condemned.

 

Now, looking at the Ephesians 4:8 passage:

 

Bill would have us believe that "captivity," in this verse, refers to those souls that have died and gone to Paradise.  First of all, it seems more than a little inappropriate on its face to refer to souls in Paradise as being held in some form of "captivity."  These are saved believers who are experiencing the delights of Paradise.  Just what are they "captive" to?   

 

Secondly, the time frame contemplated in Ephesians 4:8 is clearly not that of some "end times" event.  When was it that Jesus "lead captivity captive"?  The verse at issue tells us plainly that it was "When he ascended on high...."  That happened over 2000 years ago, yet Bill would have us see it as something in the future. Bill's anachronistic take on the passage simply does not compute.

 

Even Bill's favorite commentator, David (Blue Letter Bible) Guzik finds nothing in Ephesians 4:8 that even remotely resembles Bill's flight of fancy.  Here is Guzik's commentary:

 

b. When He ascended on high: This giving happened (as described prophetically in Psalm 68:18) when Jesus ascended to heaven, evidence of His triumph over every foe (the leading of captivity captive).

i. Bruce on the picture from Psalm 68: "One may picture a military leader returning to Jerusalem at the head of his followers, after routing an enemy army and taking many prisoners."

https://www.blueletterbible.or...yGuide_Eph/Eph_4.cfm

 

The respected scholar, John Gill, in his commentary, offers this:

 

"he led captivity captive;

which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over; the allusion is to the public triumphs of the Romans, in which captives were led in chains, and exposed to open view."

 
Here is what John Wesley says in his commentary:
 
"Wherefore he saith - That is, in reference to which God saith by David, Having ascended on high, he led captivity captive - He triumphed over all his enemies, Satan, sin, and death, which had before enslaved all the world: alluding to the custom of ancient conquerors, who led those they had conquered in chains after them.And, as they also used to give donatives to the people, at their return from victory, so he gave gifts to men - Both the ordinary and extraordinary gifts of the Spirit. Psalms 68:18 ."
 
The above-cited commentators--all of whom are religiously conservative by any reasonable standard and all of whom consider the scriptures to be divinely inspired, are essentially in agreement on the interpretation of Ephesians 4: 8, and none of them find any connection between that passage and any end time event in which residents of Paradise are ushered into the "presence of the Father."
 
I checked several other commentaries and they too were in agreement with the interpretations of Gill, Wesley and Guzik. Ifound no commentator who interprets either of the above-cited verses in any way resembling Bill Gray's view.
 
 

Contendah, my legalistic Friend,

 

It would seem that the two Scripture verses your legalism contests are:

 

John 14:6 (nasb), "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.' "

 

Ephesians 4:8 (kjv), "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

 

Or other translations:


Ephesians 4:8 (niv), "This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.' "

 

Ephesians 4:8 (esv), "Therefore it says, 'When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.' "

 

Ephesians 4:8 (nasb), "Therefore it says, 'When he ascended on high, he led captive a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.' "

 

Let's take a look at them:

 

In John 14:6 it is my contention that Jesus is saying that for all mankind -- from Adam until the last man born into a mortal body -- the ONLY way for each person to be saved, i.e., to enter into the presence of God in heaven -- is through Jesus Christ.  

 

Do you know of any other way to enter into the eternal presence of God?  If so, please share it with us.

 

And, it is my contention that we are told in Luke 16:19-31 that before Christ died and resurrected, all who died went into Hades.  The Old Testament saints, i.e., believers, went into Hades/Paradise (the Bosom of Abraham) to await their Messiah.  

 

All non-believers went into Hades/Torment and will remain there until they are resurrected, after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, to stand before Jesus Christ in a final judgment of destruction (Rev 20:11-15). 

 

And, what Ephesians 4:8, regardless of the translation, is describing is the resurrected Jesus Christ leading all the faithful Old Testament saints, and the thief on the cross, into the new Paradise which has been moved into heaven -- by Jesus Christ.  

 

He has led those who were being held (captive in the sense that they could not enter into heaven until He came for them) in Hades/Paradise -- into their new home, Heaven/Paradise -- to eternally be in the presence of God.

 

If you disagree with my interpretation -- then please tell us, in your own words, when and how the Old Testament saints were taken into heaven.  

 

As Jesus Christ said in John 14:6, ". . . no one comes to the Father but through Me."

 

Do YOU disagree with Him?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

John 14-6 - All Roads Don't Lead To God

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Originally Posted by prissy442:

semi is the forum snitch and apparently she is a mod.

______

Quaildog, it's never been a secret that you dislike me, & I care not. My feelings for you is pity in that you either don't take your meds or refuse to see a doctor to get any. Some of the post you make actually make me laugh.

Yes, I reported a post you made about Jenn & I. Within minutes of that report your ID, Quaildog, was gone so I assume it was my report that busted you. If it wasn't mine, it could have been anyone because the post was mean/nasty & deserved to be reported.

I wish I were a mod because one person on this forum would be gone for the simple fact that he's a mean spirited, unkind, cruel, selfish, malicious, petty, hurtful, human being with a malevolent disposition.

BTW, I hope you & your family have a Happy New Year.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by prissy442:

prissy has accepted an invitation to join another forum. http://shoalsbest.forumotion.net

______

Originally Posted by Seven:

So, you(Rramm) accepted an invitation to join your own forum.? LOL

Fascinating. 

_______

Probably just a way to advertise his forum hoping others would see it & join. Isn't it against TD rules to do that?

 

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've been to Rramm's forum a few times, it was OK. I don't remember

my PW, it's been awhile now.

 

So what happens after we leave this world..?? Maybe some people

never leave. I've heard Hell is located in the center of the earth,

and Heaven was skyward. Paradise is adjacent to Heaven and about

the same size as Earth.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
I've heard Hell is located in the center of the earth, and Heaven was skyward. Paradise is adjacent to Heaven and about the same size as Earth.

_____

Can't believe everything you hear. We won't know where what is, what is/what isn't, who was right, who was wrong, & if any of it is even real until we die. Should be interesting.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
I've heard Hell is located in the center of the earth, and Heaven was skyward. Paradise is adjacent to Heaven and about the same size as Earth.

_____

Can't believe everything you hear. We won't know where what is, what is/what isn't, who was right, who was wrong, & if any of it is even real until we die. Should be interesting.

I can wait..........

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
 
So what happens after we leave this world..??  Maybe some people never leave.  I've heard Hell is located in the center of the earth, and Heaven was skyward.  Paradise is adjacent to Heaven and about the same size as Earth.
Vic, my Friend,

 

Actually, the Bible, our only source of such information, does not tell us where heaven, hell, or hades are located.  So, we can only speculate.  I prefer to believe they are in different dimensions than the mortal world we live in today.

 

Our mortal world and universe are four dimensional -- length, depth, height, and time.  In the Bible, after His resurrection in His immortal body, Jesus was able to appear in a closed room without coming through a door.   He just appeared.  That speaks of Him coming from a different dimension and entering our dimension.

 

Christian scientists have speculated that there are at least ten dimensions, possibly more -- 4 for our mortal world, 3 for heaven and 3 for hell since neither heaven nor hell have linear time as do we. There could be even more.  But, this makes sense to me.

 

Yet, in the end, it is all speculation - for where the Bible is silent, we must be silent.  But, we can speculate and wonder.  

 

1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

 

God bless and Happy New Year!

 

Bill

 

1 - Bible-Science-Space_GODS-STORY

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Vic,

 

Actually, the Bible, our only source of such information, does not tell us where heaven, hell, or hades are located.  So, we can only speculate.  I prefer to believe they are in different dimensions than the mortal world we live in today.

 

This is a breath taking statement if there ever was one,, I command everyone

to tattoo the above words to their FACE so to never forget them.

 

Our mortal world and universe are four dimensional -- length, depth, height, and time.  In the Bible, after His resurrection in His immortal body, Jesus was able to appear in a closed room without coming through a door.   He just appeared.  That speaks of Him coming from a different dimension and entering our dimension.

 

So billiiee is saying that before Jesus died, he could turn water into wine,

or raise someone from the dead, but had to die before he could pass

through a wall. Was the wall kryptonite..??  

 

Christian scientists have speculated that there are at least ten dimensions, possibly more -- 4 for our mortal world, 3 for heaven and 3 for hell since neither heaven nor hell have linear time as do we. There could be even more.  But, this makes sense to me.

 

I'm not surprised.......

 

Yet, in the end, it is all speculation - for where the Bible is silent, we must be silent.  But, we can speculate and wonder.  

 

I don't must be silent.........

The Bible seems to indicate that hell is within the earth, for it describes

hell as an abyss to which the wicked descend. We even read of the earth

opening and of the wicked sinking down into hell.

Numbers 16: 31-35

 

 

 

Bill Gray,  
 

 

You "invite" the following (blue text below is verbatim from your post above):

 

"If you disagree with my interpretation -- then please tell us, in your own words, when and how the Old Testament saints were taken into heaven."

 

Here are the basic arguments you submitted in your flawed, evasive, and incomplete response to my post: 

 

As to John 14:6, you say that it is your contention "...that for all mankind -- from Adam until the last man born into a mortal body -- the ONLY way for each person to be saved, i.e., to enter into the presence of God in heaven --is through Jesus Christ."  

 

Do you know of any other way to enter into the eternal presence of God?  If so, please share it with us.

 

You, of all people, Bill, should be the last to make such an argument.  It is YOU who have repeatedly asserted on this forum that you are a SAVED person in the here and now and that you are so assuredly SAVED that no one and nothing can ever change the fact and status of your salvation. Jesus said that "...no one comes to the Father but through Me." Answer this, Bill:   Do you believe that YOU have come to the Father through Jesus Christ? Do you believe that there are any SAVED people living in the here and now who have NOT come to the Father through Jesus Christ? Or do you really believe--contrary to all you have maintained on this forum--that no one is actually "saved" until he/she has finally entered Heaven and come into the "presence of God."?  

 

Bill, as I pointed out above, and as you have declined to addressJesus was not describing some event in which He would escort lead those saved souls in Paradise to their eternal home in the presence of God in Heaven.    You, Bill Gray, are invoking a transparently deceitful little word game in which you are equating salvation (coming to the Father through His Son Jesus Christ in the here and now) with the ultimate and triumphant entry into Heaven of those who already are SAVED.   Your terminology, "to enter into the presence of God in heaven," describes the ultimate eternal destiny of those who are saved, but Jesus was not addressing that destiny.  He was simply stating the proposition that those those living in this life on earth can be saved in the here and now, but only through Him.  And unless you subscribe to Mormon theology, you must concede that lost persons will either be saved in this life or remain lost throughout eternity and that if they are saved in this life, that salvation will come to them BEFORE they enter into Heaven and come into the presence of God..

 

You also gifted the forum with this little tidbit of theological mythology:

 

"And, what Ephesians 4:8, regardless of the translation, is describing is the resurrected Jesus Christ leading all the faithful Old Testament saints, and the thief on the cross, into the new Paradise which has been moved into heaven -- by Jesus Christ.  

 

He has led those who were being held (captive in the sense that they could not enter into heaven until He came for them) in Hades/Paradise -- into their new home, Heaven/Paradise -- to eternally be in the presence of God."

 

You also say, Bill, that "before Christ died and resurrected, all who died went into Hades."

 

First of all, Bill, you have introduced a new terminology, "Heaven/Paradise," which does absolutely nothing to support your interpretation. Jesus did not tell the thief that he would be with him in "Heaven/Paradise." He simply said that the thief would be with Him "in Paradise."

 

Jesus could not have been promising the thief that on that day ("today" or Friday) that he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Heaven (or "Heaven/Paradise") in "the presence of God." On the Sunday of His resurrection, two days following His promise to the thief, Jesus affirmed that He had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17).  If Jesus had not yet ascended to be with God the Father in heaven, He had not at that time (the Friday of His crucifixion and death) entered Heaven and thus the thief could not have been in Heaven ( or "Heaven/Paradise") with Jesus on "this day," i.e.that Friday of Jesus' death. 

 

You assert that, "He has led those who were being held (captive in the sense that they could not enter into heaven until He came for them) in Hades/Paradise -- into their new home, Heaven/Paradise -- to eternally be in the presence of God."

 

But the verse says that, "He led captivity CAPTIVE."  If, as you interpret this, He led the souls out of Paradise, then you must also also be saying that He led them into some form of captivity.  How ludicrous!  What sense does it make to characterize being led into the eternal glories and delights of "Heaven/Paradise" as being led to any kind of "captive" state?  

 

 As I showed you earlier, neither the commentator whom you most often cite, David Guzik, nor other respected Bible scholars found ANYTHING in Ephesians 4:8 that accords even remotely with your imaginative take on that verse.

 

For your further edification, here is a link to a large collection of excerpts from respected commentators concerning the meaning of Ephesians 4:8.  Not one of them suggests anything remotely like your highly speculative interpretation of a risen Christ escorting Old Testament saints from a temporary parking place in Paradise into a final dwelling place in "the presence of God."  In addition to the comments printed out in full, there are links below the heading to many more commentators, none of which interpret the passage as you have.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/4-8.htm

 

I encountered but a single commentator who even made mention of the interpretation you place upon this verse, and he concluded that that interpretation is incorrect.

 

"Each member in the body of Christ has a specific place for a specific work. See Romans 12:4-5 and 1Corinthians 12:4-5. And the bestowal of gifts for service in the body is in His hands. He ascended upon high and triumphed over all enemies. He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. He triumphed over the devil, who has the power of death and stripped him of that power. And all who constitute His body share in His triumph. They are no longer under the power of Satan, but delivered from the power of darkness, they are His trophies. “He led captivity captive,” i.e., those who were in captivity, or “a troop, a multitude of captives.” The view held by some that the Old Testament saints are meant, whom He led forth from Hades is incorrect."

 

http://biblehub.com/commentari...lein/ephesians/4.htm

Originally Posted by direstraits:

If, the Protestants are correct, one may got to heaven or hell,  If the Catholics are correct, some may go to purgatory before ascending to heaven.  If the Jews are correct, some will go to purgatory before heaven, but none to hell.  If the Muslims are correct, some will go to paradise, Christians to the second mansion of hell, non-compliant muslims to the first mansion and so on.  One rises to the next highest mansion after 100 years of torment if they are people of the book and eventually rise to paradise. If the Hindus or Buddhists are correct one rises to the cosmos, or like the terminator -- I'll be back.  If the atheists are correct, none of us will know it. 

Dire you nailed it good one!! 

Originally Posted by HIFLYER2:
Originally Posted by direstraits:

If, the Protestants are correct, one may got to heaven or hell,  If the Catholics are correct, some may go to purgatory before ascending to heaven.  If the Jews are correct, some will go to purgatory before heaven, but none to hell.  If the Muslims are correct, some will go to paradise, Christians to the second mansion of hell, non-compliant muslims to the first mansion and so on.  One rises to the next highest mansion after 100 years of torment if they are people of the book and eventually rise to paradise. If the Hindus or Buddhists are correct one rises to the cosmos, or like the terminator -- I'll be back.  If the atheists are correct, none of us will know it. 

Dire you nailed it good one!! 

___

Dire left out the Mormons.  Their concept of life after death includes not one, not two,but THREE possible destinies for those who are "saved" per the Mormon concept of salvation.  They allow for only one destiny for the lost, those being whoever learns the "truth" (i.e. the bizarre doctrines of Mormonism) and then apostatizes. Thus the deluded followers of the False Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. contemplate a total of FOUR outcomes for the dear departed.  Do the Guinness records folks know about this?

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well contendah, that makes as much sense as the things you believe.

____

Well, Queen of Snark and Bitterness, that starts your day off with its usual carping, non-substantive, unexplicated irrelevance

And YOUR nonsense is somehow relevant? Again, the things you believe are just as silly as anything any others believe. Queen of snark and bitterness? LOL! Never fear, you still own that title. It would be interesting to know a bit more about you, such as how you came to think your opinions and what you wanted were the only things that mattered.

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Well contendah, that makes as much sense as the things you believe.

____

Well, Queen of Snark and Bitterness, that starts your day off with its usual carping, non-substantive, unexplicated irrelevance

And YOUR nonsense is somehow relevant? Again, the things you believe are just as silly as anything any others believe. Queen of snark and bitterness? LOL! Never fear, you still own that title. It would be interesting to know a bit more about you, such as how you came to think your opinions and what you wanted were the only things that mattered.

______

 

There you go, Best,

 

ing again!

Last edited by Contendah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEhqzOeJnto

 

Woke up this morning
Put on my slippers
Walked in the kitchen
And died
And oh, what a feeling!
When my soul
Went through the ceiling
And on up into heaven, I did ride
When I got there, they did say
"John, it happened this way
You slipped upon the floor
And hit your head"
And all the angels say
"Just before you passed away
That these were the very last words
That you said"

"Please dont bury me
Down in that cold, cold ground
No, Id rather have 'em cut me up
And pass me all around"
"Throw my brain in a hurricane
And the blind can have my eyes
And the deaf can take both of my ears
If they dont mind the size"
"Give my stomach to Milwaukee
If they run out of beer
Put my socks in a cedar box
Just to get 'em out of here"

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