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Hello! I wanted to throw something out there- after living in the Shoals for 13 years, and being a Catholic, is it true that many in the "bible belt" believe that Catholicism is inherently "wrong".??? Do Southerners really have a problem with Catholics, or is this just the impression I have from reading the courier journal? I lived in the Northeast for my entire life, and was never a 'minority'. I am curious as to the opinions offered here. There was a slam against the Catholic Church and the Pope on the "news" forum, and it just has me thinking....
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While I'm sure that I'm in no way as sensitive to the bias or feelings conveyed by other protestant church members in the Shoals area I do know, from attending many different denominations (Catholic included, although I am not Catholic) I have seen and observed some things which you might be alluding to.

The biggest (perceived) problems that the protestants have with the Catholic church centers around two areas. For one the term "HOLY FATHER" given to the Pope just doesn't set well with most protestants as they feel that the Holy Father connotation should apply only to God the Father and not to any human man. Another problem that the protestants seem to have with the Pope is the designation of infallibility that was applied to the Pope's position years ago.

Another major area of contention is that protestants believe that confession of sins are made to Jesus or to God via the Holy Spirit's intercession and not made to a Priest who will then offer absolution or penitence. Along the same is the thought of praying to Mary or having Mary carry prayers to the Son ( Jesus ). Protestants believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit of God gives the Christian Saint the ability to address or pray to God directly asking forgiveness in the name of Jesus (Jesus sacrifice giving us the ability, through the Holy Spirit). There are many others I'm sure that spark strong feelings not to mention the Bible's that are used being different.

Those are the major points of contention that I have observed between protestants and Catholics beliefs or system of belief. Don't feel to bad about that thought because there are plenty of Churches (denominations) around the Shoals as well as other areas that make a point of criticizing other protestant denominations. Around the Shoals area the largest congregations are the Church of Christ followed by Southern Baptist ( I believe ) but then the Pentecostal (Independent non-denominational) churches are growing the fastest (again I believe) of the protestant churches in the area.

I believe that God uses various Churches and Denominations to His Will and it's too bad that we spend so much time cutting down each other and being judgmental of each other than we do seeking to share Christ with others and presenting the "changed lives" and testimony of Christ to others.

May not have answered your question but I hope it helps but I also hope that what you feel conveyed from the protestant Churches as well as the Courier Journal isn't that overt. I do though think that maybe what you are reading in the Courier Journal is either purchased space, sold to various Churches or pastors, or donated space to whom ever submits articles or pieces of editorial.
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
While I'm sure that I'm in no way as sensitive to the bias or feelings conveyed by other protestant church members in the Shoals area I do know, from attending many different denominations (Catholic included, although I am not Catholic) I have seen and observed some things which you might be alluding to.

The biggest (perceived) problems that the protestants have with the Catholic church centers around two areas. For one the term "HOLY FATHER" given to the Pope just doesn't set well with most protestants as they feel that the Holy Father connotation should apply only to God the Father and not to any human man. Another problem that the protestants seem to have with the Pope is the designation of infallibility that was applied to the Pope's position years ago.

Another major area of contention is that protestants believe that confession of sins are made to Jesus or to God via the Holy Spirit's intercession and not made to a Priest who will then offer absolution or penitence. Along the same is the thought of praying to Mary or having Mary carry prayers to the Son ( Jesus ). Protestants believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit of God gives the Christian Saint the ability to address or pray to God directly asking forgiveness in the name of Jesus (Jesus sacrifice giving us the ability, through the Holy Spirit). There are many others I'm sure that spark strong feelings not to mention the Bible's that are used being different.

Those are the major points of contention that I have observed between protestants and Catholics beliefs or system of belief. Don't feel to bad about that thought because there are plenty of Churches (denominations) around the Shoals as well as other areas that make a point of criticizing other protestant denominations. Around the Shoals area the largest congregations are the Church of Christ followed by Southern Baptist ( I believe ) but then the Pentecostal (Independent non-denominational) churches are growing the fastest (again I believe) of the protestant churches in the area.

I believe that God uses various Churches and Denominations to His Will and it's too bad that we spend so much time cutting down each other and being judgmental of each other than we do seeking to share Christ with others and presenting the "changed lives" and testimony of Christ to others.

May not have answered your question but I hope it helps but I also hope that what you feel conveyed from the protestant Churches as well as the Courier Journal isn't that overt. I do though think that maybe what you are reading in the Courier Journal is either purchased space, sold to various Churches or pastors, or donated space to whom ever submits articles or pieces of editorial.


Good post. I think you summed it up pretty well.

I've noticed there is a lot of back & forth between Catholics and non-Catholics in the letters to the editor in the Courier.

I think it's sad that people let doctrine get in the way of God sometimes.
How about the fact that the Catholics have hid the gospel for 2000 years and preaching only Latin so 99.9% of its members could not understand the priest nor the bible. As long as your members do not know what the bible says you can keep your little game going!

How about paying money to the church to get members prayed into heaven?

How about the waffer and wine actually turning into the flesh of Christ and actual blood once it hits your mouth?

How about the fact that Mary was afraid of angels?

Baptist, Methodist, Catholics, they are all in the same boat if you do not know what the Bible says. I challenge this forum to read Matthew and really see what Jesus says, it will open your eyes as to what the churches teach....
gbrk, thank you for your thoughtful response. I really agree that those are the "points" that usually stir up the problems. (Holy Father, Mary, confession etc.).
I will act as an apologist for a moment, and say that the Catholic Church does not teach to worship Mary. But we do hold her in quite high esteem, being the Mother of Jesus, and all...and quite often do go to her and ask for her intercession. (what better way to get to a Son than through his Mother?)Smiler
Marian Devotion varies among Catholics. The one constant is that there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Eternally begotten from the Father.
So, yeah, we're Christians. It is so sad and hurtful that people claim otherwise. (not to mention just ignorant).
And as for the body and blood of Christ, just all you need to do is read the gospels of the Last Supper when Christ proclaims "This IS my body, which will be given up for you....do this in remembrance of me."
See? We're not so bad! Smiler
quote:
As long as your members do not know what the bible says you can keep your little game going!

Oh, my goodness, this could easily be omitted. I would hardly call >2000 years of Apostolic teaching a "little game". How sad are you?!
And Mary was afraid of the angel when it appeared, and he calmed her "be not afraid,Mary, you have found favor with the Lord". then what was her response???? Look at the fruit of her womb for the answer- she said "YES!". Faithfully and fearlessly, Amen.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
the Catholic Church does not teach to worship Mary. But we do hold her in quite high esteem, being the Mother of Jesus, and all...and quite often do go to her and ask for her intercession. (what better way to get to a Son than through his Mother?)Smiler
Jesus said that "no man comes to the Father, except by Me." That pretty much sums up the whole stance against praying to Mary. There is no one else through whom to go. It's all about Jesus.
And as for the body and blood of Christ, just all you need to do is read the gospels of the Last Supper when Christ proclaims "This IS my body, which will be given up for you....do this in remembrance of me."
As for the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 you quoted, Jesus was speaking metaphorically. The bread and wine don't ACTUALLY become flesh and blood once they enter your mouth. If they did, there would be a lot of spitting during communion.
In my opinion, denominations, if they are used to divide the church, the body of Christ, are wrong and possibly were in biblical error from the beginning.

Divisions at Corinth

1 Cor:10 "Now I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing, that there be no divisions among you, and that you be united with the same understanding and the same conviction. 11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by members of Chloe's household, that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I am saying is this: each of you says, "I'm with Paul," or "I'm with Apollos," or "I'm with Cephas," or "I'm with Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was it Paul who was crucified for you? Or were you baptized in Paul's name? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say you had been baptized in my name. 16 I did, in fact, baptize the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't know if I baptized anyone else. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with clever words, so that the cross of Christ will not be emptied [of its effect]."

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates to me God is concerned with your denomination. You are either a believer or you are not. JMHO
Here is a link that describes some of the extereme and heretical positions that the Catholic Church takes--or is considering-- with regard to Mary ("co-redemptrix" for example).Exerpt---

"ROME, 11 FEB. 2008 (ZENIT)
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!

Link:http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5mardogm.htm
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Here is a link that describes some of the extereme and heretical positions that the Catholic Church takes--or is considering-- with regard to Mary ("co-redemptrix" for example).Exerpt---

"ROME, 11 FEB. 2008 (ZENIT)
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!

Link:http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5mardogm.htm


I find humor in how we can disagree on some subjects so much, yet agree on others to the same degree. This is one post of yours with which I totally agree.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Here is a link that describes some of the extereme and heretical positions that the Catholic Church takes--or is considering-- with regard to Mary ("co-redemptrix" for example).Exerpt---

"ROME, 11 FEB. 2008 (ZENIT)
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!

Link:http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5mardogm.htm


Just curious, where do you go to church?
quote:
They keep on making it up as they go!

Not true! They are merely making a statement to fully encompass Mary's place in the Church, and in the world. Mary has so many different names - Mary, Mother of God,
Mary, Queen of the Universe, to name a couple.
This is just forming an all-ecompassing title for her. The Catholic Church doesn't make any changes quickly. Any proposed addition to the doctrine/teaching/dogma is not taken lightly..
But don't worry- The Pope is the successor of Peter, after all, so he will be infallible in his teaching- ALWAYS. Rest assured of that.
Joy-
Thank you for your post. I agree with that 100%, and thank you for bringing it to mind.

As far as the "metaphorical" comment about Last Supper:
One thing I DO know for certain is that when we receive the body and blood of Christ, it IS the [b]body and blood, soul and divinity. Transubstantiation. Look it up, if you're interested.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
As long as your members do not know what the bible says you can keep your little game going!

Oh, my goodness, this could easily be omitted. I would hardly call >2000 years of Apostolic teaching a "little game". How sad are you?!
And Mary was afraid of the angel when it appeared, and he calmed her "be not afraid,Mary, you have found favor with the Lord". then what was her response???? Look at the fruit of her womb for the answer- she said "YES!". Faithfully and fearlessly, Amen.


What is sad the Church hid the gospel for profit and not salvation. Which means billions of catholics will not make it into the book of life no matter how much money you gave the church. Tell me why the Catholics never published an English version of the bible? Why did they never publish any version of the bible?
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!


Mary was pick by God Himself to be the mother of Jesus. I'd say that puts her right next to Jesus on the throne, wouldn't you? She deserves a special place and the Catholic Church is the only one to stand up for her.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!


Mary was pick by God Himself to be the mother of Jesus. I'd say that puts her right next to Jesus on the throne, wouldn't you? She deserves a special place and the Catholic Church is the only one to stand up for her.


If Mary deserved a special place, don't you think Jesus would have made sure of that Himself? He would have made sure someone put it in the original text. Guess what. It's not there. God has picked MANY people for various things over the years. Not once has He said that person deserved to sit next to Jesus. Jesus stood up for Mary while He was on the cross. He told His half-brother to take care of her. That's all the treatment she gets. Yes, she, with a little "s."
vplee, those verses in John say "When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, 'Dear woman, here is your son,' and to the disciple, 'Here is your mother.' From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." I don't understand how that could be interpreted as Jesus declaring her the mother of all humanity?
MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:


Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."
I'm sorry. I still get it. She was the mother of Jesus, not the mother of humanity. I think being the mother of God's son would be a step above mother of humanity anyway though. She is certainly unparalleled in that no other woman or man on earth that ever lived can share her experience.

I do think she was an extremely strong woman of faith. The passages about her rip my heart out. As a mother, I cannot imagine watching my son endure all of that.

I thought she was just respected in the Catholic church. She is <not> put on the same level as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, correct?
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Maybe the above passage helps to clarify the Catholic Church's relationship with Mary.She is not worshipped, but she is a mediator. We often ask her to intercede for us. During the assumption, she is assumed into Heaven, her body knowing no decay and put at her Son's side. This is where is becomes clear that she reigns as Queen of heaven and earth.
I don't know anybody that can question her devotion to her Son,and that is not moved by her strength watching her Son die.
No, she is not "at the same level" as God. She was human. But certainly,being conceived without sin and then assumed to Heaven does put her in a special place.
Reading about the Assumption again just illustrates and strengthens the incredible love Jesus had for His mother- he wouldn't let death or decay touch her, thus the Assumption.
quote:
Originally posted by LoveShack:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
As long as your members do not know what the bible says you can keep your little game going!

Oh, my goodness, this could easily be omitted. I would hardly call >2000 years of Apostolic teaching a "little game". How sad are you?!
And Mary was afraid of the angel when it appeared, and he calmed her "be not afraid,Mary, you have found favor with the Lord". then what was her response???? Look at the fruit of her womb for the answer- she said "YES!". Faithfully and fearlessly, Amen.


What is sad the Church hid the gospel for profit and not salvation. Which means billions of catholics will not make it into the book of life no matter how much money you gave the church. Tell me why the Catholics never published an English version of the bible? Why did they never publish any version of the bible?


What the heck are you talking about?
quote:
Originally posted by smokey1:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Here is a link that describes some of the extereme and heretical positions that the Catholic Church takes--or is considering-- with regard to Mary ("co-redemptrix" for example).Exerpt---

"ROME, 11 FEB. 2008 (ZENIT)
Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would "proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as "the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race."

This information was provided online by the "Eternal Word Television Network," the cable channel founded by "Mother Angelica," an elderly Catholic nun.

They keep on making it up as they go!

Link:http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/z5mardogm.htm


Just curious, where do you go to church?


And just WHAT would that have to do with the subject under discussion? ANSWER: Nothing. The truth of what I posted is there for all to see and if you disagree with it, say so. Your replies to the substantive information I post are predictably insulting and/or irrelevant. YOur nickname is apt, since you blow so much smoke. I find no need to cater to your curiosity. Try addressing the information I posted from a Catholic source. I put up valid stuff in these discussions. You, in your immature manner, generally put up tripe. Try to improve on your thus-far less-than-lackluster performance. Your defense of your faith so far is weak and unpersuasive. Maybe you should get some priest to tutor you.
Last edited by beternU
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

Maybe the above passage helps to clarify the Catholic Church's relationship with Mary.She is not worshipped, but she is a mediator. We often ask her to intercede for us. During the assumption, she is assumed into Heaven, her body knowing no decay and put at her Son's side. This is where is becomes clear that she reigns as Queen of heaven and earth.
I don't know anybody that can question her devotion to her Son,and that is not moved by her strength watching her Son die.
No, she is not "at the same level" as God. She was human. But certainly,being conceived without sin and then assumed to Heaven does put her in a special place.
Reading about the Assumption again just illustrates and strengthens the incredible love Jesus had for His mother- he wouldn't let death or decay touch her, thus the Assumption.


vplee, please forgive my ignorance. I know just enough about how the Catholic church interprets scripture to be dangerous. Smiler From what book are the passages you've posted?

You are saying that Jesus was conceived without sin, not Mary, right? I'm making sure that I am understanding everything.

I guess if you already have priests as mediators (at least I think that's the point of confession, maybe not) that it's not too out of the ordinary to ask Mary to intercede as well. I don't understand the need for either, not that it's some huge big problem, but since we ourselves now have access to God through Christ, I don't understand why you bother going through anyone else.

Is this not an assumption to think that this is Mary's job, since I do not know of anywhere in scripture where God appointed her as mediator? What if the assumption is wrong?

Whether it is an accurate or inaccurate assumption, however, this difference in interpretation of scripture (if it comes from scripture) will not keep anyone out of Heaven as long as Christ is Lord & Savior of their life. So, I am trying to understand, but not bothered by it.
I attended a Catholic church for a few years, even though I am not Catholic. The priest was a wonderful man. I went to talk with him one day and asked him about a few things I didn't understand. He told me that confession is designed more to help people get things off their chest (as in "confession is good for the soul") and it encouraged people who might not otherwise even take that inward look into their soul. He told me that Catholics do not pray to the saints, but talk to them and ask the saints to pray for them. He also told me that if there had been no Mother Mary, they would have had to invent one because all things need to be balanced, and the female side of religion needed to balance the male side. He also told me that my Baptist baptism was valid, and that if I converted to Catholicism, I would not need to be baptised again. I really liked this priest, and I enjoyed going to his church, but I never turned Catholic. (It would've taken two years of classes.) But I respect Catholics, just as much as I respect Baptists, Methodists, or any other sect. As long as they know Jesus as their savior, we are ALL brothers and sisters.
The main point is hereditary hatred of Catholicism and Anglicism and Lutheranism from Calvin on down to his modern day descendants in less pseudo-erudite forms, i.e., Hardshell Baptists, SBC, etc. and the most inconsolable elect of the "orthodox" 5 Points of Calvinism.

They detest the history of the Universal Church, cannot admit that it has been mired in schism from the time of the bolting from Chalcedon by the East over "homoousia" and then "filoque" and magnified by the schisms made formal in England and various German states later.

They detest our Catholic heritage. They loathe and secretly wish their buildings were not gymnasia and lecture halls, rather art galleries and centers for cultic sacramental congregational worship and adoration.


They want their preachers to have miters in secret and a Mary-had-a-little-lamb-stick and some some good smellum smoke once in a while, but all they get is a get out of hell free card that lasts forever and worrying about their recent invention of Rapture and Tribulation. Those two have nothing on advanced Mariology at all, by the way, for all you 1000 Year Reign Flying Carpet/Magic Tractor Beam "Bible Believers" out there!

Anglicans and Lutherans see only the innovations of 1871, namely the Vatican Council I which we do NOT hold as Eucumenical in any true sense of the word, as binding, namely the proclamation of the Bishop of Rome as directly in line from St. Peter in holding all the keys of the kingdom, namely his ability to pronounce dogma and doctrine and act ex cathedra infallibly. Anglicans and Methodists do not define what Real Presence consists once the elements have been consecrated while Lutherans have con v. trans substantiation, a mere word play on old Platonic "forms" and "accidents" and we simply say, "Yeah, the Holy Spirit through our faith does something special and holy with our gifts and they ain't just a cracker and a sip of wine no mo fo sho'."

Anticatholicism is the cement that made the English and Scots cemented into Britons. Well, that and opposing their cousins across the Irish Sea and the Channel . . . . We just took it up here and amplified it from a political to a religious raison d'etre, it seems.

But I do have to say, that new one from Bavaria ain't quite so nice a fellow as was the Polish one or even the last Italian one, for that matter. Now we Anglicans loves us some John XXIII and claim Francis as one of our own, by the way.
quote:
You are saying that Jesus was conceived without sin, not Mary, right? I'm making sure that I am understanding everything.

Actually, it is the Church's teaching that at the time of Mary's conception, she was conceived without sin. It's a common error to believe the "Immaculate Conception" refers to Jesus' birth, but truly it is Mary. God never allowed her to be stained by sin.
And the "ASSUMPTION" is the event in which Mary's body was assumed into heaven. Smiler not assumption, as in make an assumption about something. Does that help? Joy, I appreciate this dialogue, and I agree wholeheartedly that Jesus is the only way, the truth, and the light. We are all in this together, some just on different paths. All members of all Christian denominations that glorify and worship the Holy Trinity are brothers and sisters in Christ. Right? Smiler
Right. Smiler

I shouldn't have used the word assumption...lol...that really confused things. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one as I don't think Mary was without sin.

You didn't say where you got the passages you've shared, but in speaking with the husband, he says the Catholic church adheres to additional books not included in the Bible. I should have remembered that. I imagine I'll need to read those books if I want to understand our differences.

Rapture is a one word definition that some use to describe the gathering of Christians when Christ returns, found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (New International Version)..."According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
Right.Sorry-from the Catechism of the Catholic Church!
I do think that people would find that we're not so different after all. Like
the Rosary- for example- is quite literally just a prayer of the Gospels.It's not some "chant to Mary" as I have heard,since leaving Northern U.S...
Its a beautiful meditative prayer, in which we focus on the incredible mysteries of the Gospels.
Not to delve into a whole other topic- just pointing out how something that is perceived as VERY Catholic, can be traced easily and directly back to the Bible.
I have always wondered why the animosity toward Catholics- have felt some here on this forum, for sure- but am comforted by the fact that we are all Christians, devoted to Christ, period. So Rapture? Ok,I'm ready! Smiler Rosary? You got it. Mary? If she's good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for me! Smiler Blessings to you, Joy.
quote:
Originally posted by gbrk:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Ok, now forgive my ignorance, but what in the world is a Rapture?


The word Rapture is never found in Scripture, as that word. The Rapture is used because the word Rapture is to be "Caught Up". The basis of this comes from the following scripture:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (CEV) 13 My friends, we want you to understand how it will be for those followers who have already died. Then you won't grieve over them and be like people who don't have any hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and was raised to life. We also believe that when God brings Jesus back again, he will bring with him all who had faith in Jesus before they died. 15 Our Lord Jesus told us that when he comes, we won't go up to meet him ahead of his followers who have already died. 16 With a loud command and with the shout of the chief angel and a blast of God's trumpet, the Lord will return from heaven. Then those who had faith in Christ before they died will be raised to life. 17 Next, all of us who are still alive will be taken up into the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the sky. From that time on we will all be with the Lord forever. 18 Encourage each other with these words.

also used at times are:
1 Corinthians 15:12-24 (CEV) 12 If we preach that Christ was raised from death, how can some of you say that the dead will not be raised to life? 13 If they won't be raised to life, Christ himself wasn't raised to life. 14 And if Christ wasn't raised to life, our message is worthless, and so is your faith. 15 If the dead won't be raised to life, we have told lies about God by saying that he raised Christ to life, when he really did not. 16 So if the dead won't be raised to life, Christ wasn't raised to life. 17 Unless Christ was raised to life, your faith is useless, and you are still living in your sins. 18 And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost. 19 If our hope in Christ is good only for this life, we are worse off than anyone else. 20 But Christ has been raised to life! And he makes us certain that others will also be raised to life. 21 Just as we will die because of Adam, we will be raised to life because of Christ. 22 Adam brought death to all of us, and Christ will bring life to all of us. 23 But we must each wait our turn. Christ was the first to be raised to life, and his people will be raised to life when he returns. 24 Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father.

There are also varying interpretations as to when this "Rapture" or catching up will occur. Some believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, most modern Protestant churches teach this and point to Revelation 4:1 as that time. I personally accept the "Pre-Wrath" interpretation as being the correct timing of "The Rapture" which means that the Church and those alive during that time will have to endure the first seals of Revelation 6 and that these are predictive of man's state and difficulties at the end times and then the Rapture or catching up of the saints occurs at Revelation 7:9.

Many protestants also even dispute that there is a "Rapture" and like many of Scripture's teachings there is vast disagreement among many different peoples but that's where the word Rapture comes from.

With Regard to Mary's state of Sinfulness I, like Joy, will respectfully, agree to disagree, in that I do believe that Christ was born of the Seed of the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary a very special chosen vessel of God but I cannot accept that she was sinless but would be interested in the Scriptural backing of that statement. It is teachings such as the sinlessness of Mary that does present a barrier between protestant churches and the Catholic church and again a great deal of controversy comes in and is there due to the Catholic Church's acceptance that the Pope or the Church can create scripture or add to Scripture. Things such as the infallibility of the Pope.

There are vast and recognizable differences between protestant and Catholic churches but the problem, as I see it, is that many fail to respectfully disagree and do so while presenting their cases and arguments in a reasonable, loving way, rather both (churches) have over the years degraded into something totally unlike Christ teachings. This leads to conflicts like Northern Ireland where you literally have war between believing factions and history is replete with actions of the Catholic Church against people who choose to believe differently so both are guilty at various times of very Un-Christian activities. We at times spend far more time Judging each other than Judging ourselves and knowing exactly why we believe what we believe.

Catholic's go to Confession but if you look at many Protestant churches and examine the motives of why people attend Church as they do then it would not be a far stretch to say many go to Church because they feel it atones for their weekly sins and activities during the week and they feel better about themselves and their weekly attendance serves as that penitence for those shortcomings during the week. I'm not saying that is what I believe but one could easily make an application as such.

What I am saying is each person should be assured of what they believe and know why they believe as they do. They should be able to back their beliefs, their doctrine, by their own knowledge of Scripture and security in the Holy Spirit rather than relying upon the preacher or priest for their doctrines and their beliefs.

Salvation, and belief, are very personal things and relate to a relationship between God and the individual Christian. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to Believers.
John 14:15-17 (NIV) 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Romans 8:9-17 (NIV) 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
1 Corinthians 2:10-15 (CEV) 10 God's Spirit has shown you everything. His Spirit finds out everything, even what is deep in the mind of God. 11 You are the only one who knows what is in your own mind, and God's Spirit is the only one who knows what is in God's mind. 12 But God has given us his Spirit. That's why we don't think the same way that the people of this world think. That's also why we can recognize the blessings that God has given us. 13 Every word we speak was taught to us by God's Spirit, not by human wisdom. And this same Spirit helps us teach spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 That's why only someone who has God's Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn't have God's Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish. 15 People who are guided by the Spirit can make all kinds of judgments, but they cannot be judged by others.

Each Believer, Christian, should know why they believe what they do, Each believer has God's Holy Spirit within that enables the believer to actually have access to God the Father through the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27 (ESV) 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. ). People should know that God's Holy Spirit gives the believer the right to take their prayers direct to God. It doesn't say or rule out requesting a pastor, priest, or fellow believer as someone the believer may wish to go to in order to request prayer but it also doesn't mean you have to go through a third person in order to "talk to God".

Wow all this writing and text in this post for simply trying to answer what the Rapture is. Sorry for the deviation.
Last edited by gbrk

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