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Seems all this forum is about lately is Politics & calling one another names. I'm just almost to the point of leaving because it's not interesting anymore. There's no discussions in which we can learn. It's become a playground of pre-school kids. (not all of you, just some)

 

I have a serious question in which I hope the discussion will be one in which I can get honest, non-argumentative opinions from. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism as long as it's given in an adult manner.

 

Anyway, Matthew says that speaking against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. My question is, what does it mean by speaking against the holy spirit? Like what would be an example of committing that sin? I know what I believe it means & I could be wrong but I have a sincere reason for asking. 

I was told a few days ago that the unforgivable sin is to go to church, be baptized in the holy spirit, while learning God's word & then walk away from church saying that I don't believe anymore. This person said that is blasphemy of the holy spirit but I'm not sure I believe that.

What do you believe "baptized in the holy spirit" means? Some Religions believe it's "speaking in tongues" which I've heard some people believe to be a cult. I've also heard people refer to the COC & Catholic church to be a cult.

I would love to hear some opinions.

 

Last edited by semiannualchick
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Great question semi. I have an answer, but it may not be the one you want.

 

Mat 12:31

  Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

Mat 12:32

 

  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the world (age) to come.

 

 

I don't believe there is any such thing as an sin that will NEVER be forgiven, but there are sins that will not be forgiven in the next age and the age after that.

 

Here is a more literal translation of the verses in question.

 

 

Mat 12:31

 

  Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

 

Mat 12:32

 

 

 

  And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.

 

An example of a sin that will not be forgiven for two ages might be when someone attributes the work of God to the work of the Devil.

 

God desires and wills that all of humanity be saved.

 

 

1Ti 2:3

 

 

 

  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

 

1Ti 2:4

 

  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

And whatever God wants or desires He will get.

 

 

Isa 46:10

 

  I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.

 

Sincerely hopes this helps.

 

Peace

 

 

 

Originally Posted by gdriggs:

Great question semi. I have an answer, but it may not be the one you want.

I don't believe there is any such thing as an sin that will NEVER be forgiven,

 

 Sincerely hopes this helps. 

______

Thank you, but I wasn't looking for help. Just people's honest opinions of how they see it.

How can you not believe it when the very scriptures you gave say differently, unless you don't believe the scriptures? 

Sorry semi was trying to word that last bit without trying to sound too presumptuous and failed.  

 

If you read the verses very carefully you'll see it does not say if someone blasphemy against the holy spirit they will never be saved, it says they will not be forgiven till after two ages. 

 

To your other question about believing the Scriptures the answer is yes I believe them. If it said blasphemy against the holy spirit will never be forgiven that would totally contradict hundreds of other Scriptures and I do not believe Scripture contradict like people do.

 

Anyhow that is how I see it.

Semi, this is my thoughts on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not go into detail what it is, so we have to consider what it might mean. I think on any subject we have to consider other passages and make sure we are not creating a contradiction. The ones Jesus was talking to had just witnessed some of His miracles.They were mocking and making Jesus out to be someone He was not and making light what He was telling them. Jesus told them His power to do so was from God and they were saying He did them with satans power. Since Jesus has returned to Heaven and we cannot witness Him performing His miracles in person it would be impossible for us today to commit this sin. I believe that today we cannot commit any sin God will not forgive us for. Any sin we never ask God to forgive us for and we are not willing to stop Could be a sin unto death. These are my thoughts about this so maybe they could be something to consider. 

The doctrine of the Holy Spirit forms an integral part of teaching on the

mystery of the Holy Trinity, of which St. Augustine says "In no other subject

is the danger of erring so great, or the progress so difficult, or the fruit of a

careful study so appreciable".

 

The essential points of the dogma may be resumed in the following

propositions,

The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Though really distinct, as a Person, from the Father and the Son, He is consubstantial with Them, being God like Them, He possesses with Them one and the same Divine Essence or Nature.

He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle.

 

All the theories and all the Christian sects that have contradicted or impugned, in any way, the dogma of the Trinity, have, as a logical consequence, threatened likewise the faith in the Holy

Spirit.

 

You do not deny the Holy Spirit, or you deny the Trinity. unpardonable sin.

 

First of all, Semi, coming from someone who has also taken time away from the forum, I'd like to say please consider staying and don't allow all the bickering to get to you or get you to a point where you feel your only avenue is to leave all together.  I to have, at times, become jaded and fed up with certain aspects of the forum and the way various people interact or choose to interact with or toward each other on this public forum.  I to have had the feeling that this (particular) forum is incapable of being a place where a person seeking a serious answer, regarding religion, could get an opinion without ridicule or rejection or outright debasement.  I have, though, attempted to temper those feelings and more consider myself as a commentator rather than some respective authority regarding my particular narrow or small sampling of my particular aspect of Christianity, a subset of Religion but one which is more than likely referenced over other religions or areas of religion.

 

With that said, regarding your specific question, I'd like to preface my remarks by saying that there are some areas, of Christianity, that I find more challenging than others and also realize that there are a plethora of opinions and interpretations regarding many topics in Christianity and with regards to scriptures, Christ and/or his teachings.  As a Christian I honestly admit that my replies are from a biased perspective but also as a Believer/Christian I also believe that the answers to any and all questions, necessary for believers, are contained in that which God has allowed us to have possession of including that which we call the Bible or Scriptures that have been assembled and gathered over time by other believers who felt conviction to do so.

 

I also believe that these assembled scriptures, collectively called "God's Word" by many, are inspired by God, written down and collected by men (of God) through the years.  In those areas where there are areas that are not specifically addressed or seemingly unanswered then I believe God's Holy Spirit (a gift given unto all real Christians) will and can answer those to the benefit and for each Christian as those believers honestly and prayerfully ask of God. 

 

Now with regards to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or what some call the "unpardonable Sin" I know there are many opinions and beliefs and those varied opinions and beliefs stem from various denominational views or what various people have been taught so I realize that there will be varied opinions on this topic as there is on many other topics.

 

As for my particular belief as to what blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is I, like others on this forum, believe it can be one of the following:

  • attributing miracles, acts, or works of God unto Satan, Demons, or Satanic influence
  • rejecting God's invitation for Salvation, once God has "spiritually enlightened" the person (by and through His Holy Spirit) as to their Spiritual needs, thus making the decision to reject Salvation, from God
  • Verbally offending and abusing God/God's Holy Spirit openly before others or in one's own mind.

I believe that each of the above points can also be summed up into the 2nd point, that being the opening of a person's Spiritual understanding such that they can then make the ultimate decision that will affect their eternal being and future.  In effect rejecting Christ sacrifice for our, sins and sin nature, as revealed unto each through and by God's Holy Spirit.  Rejecting this, once enlightened (by God's Holy Spirit) is essentially denying that the Holy Spirit is of God and is God and rather dismissing that as being either from another source or being of little or not effect and once this (Spiritual) knowledge is rejected then there exist no other path to Salvation and for ultimate forgiveness from God for those Sins we have committed and that Sin Nature which rules each of our lives. 

 

In order not to make this reply any longer I'll defer back to, you Semi, as to see what questions or clarifications you may wish regarding these statements.

Originally Posted by gdriggs:

If it said blasphemy against the holy spirit will never be forgiven that would totally contradict hundreds of other Scriptures and I do not believe Scripture contradict like people do.

_______

I'm one of those people that believe the Bible is full of contradictions. There's several places in which a scripture will say one thing & other places where it contradicts the scripture you just read. People tell me no, that's not the case. Maybe not in the way they see it but it is in the way I see it.  

The section of scripture that is referenced with respect to the unforgivable sin or blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is:

Mark 3:22-30 (ESV)
22  And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”
23  And he called them to him and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan?
24  If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25  And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26  And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.
27  But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
28  “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
29  but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
30  for they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

 

It is clear from the context that the offence being spoken of is attributing a miracle of God, carried out with the power of/in the Holy Spirit and yet attributed unto Satan.  Christ was countering that Satan doesn't drive out Satan and that a house divided will not stand against itself.  The offense being referenced is in verse 22 where they claim it was the power of Satan at work. 

 

Additionally the sentiment is carried forth in Hebrews in the following passage:

Hebrews 10:29-31 (ESV)
29  How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30  For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Here in Hebrews it is the saving blood of Christ that is being disparaged and made of no effect yet it is essentially the same thing and that is rejecting the deity of Christ/God/God's Holy Spirit.

 

 

If you want further reading about this passage of Hebrews I have copied one commentary regarding this passage:

Hebrews 10:29

Of how much sorer punishment—Such offenses were trifling in comparison of this, and in justice the punishment should be proportioned to the offense.

Trodden under foot the Son of God—Treated him with the utmost contempt and blasphemy.

The blood of the covenant—an unholy thing—The blood of the covenant means here the sacrificial death of Christ, by which the new covenant between God and man was ratified, sealed, and confirmed. And counting this unholy, or common, κοινον, intimates that they expected nothing from it in a sacrificial or atoning way. How near to those persons, and how near to their destruction, do they come in the present day who reject the atoning blood, and say, "that they expect no more benefit from the blood of Christ than they do from that of a cow or a sheep!" Is not this precisely the crime of which the apostle speaks here, and to which he tells us God would show no mercy?

Despite unto the Spirit of grace?—Hath insulted the Spirit of grace. The apostle means the Holy Spirit, whose gifts were bestowed in the first age on believers for the confirmation of the Gospel. See 6:4-6. Wherefore, if one apostatized in the first age, after having been witness to these miraculous gifts, much more after having possessed them himself, he must, like the scribes and Pharisees, have ascribed them to evil spirits; than which a greater indignity could not be done to the Spirit of God. Macknight. This is properly the sin against the Holy Ghost, which has no forgiveness.


Adam Clarke's Commentary.

again there are many interpretations regarding these thoughts but I believe that the scriptures here present the thoughts that are behind this most grievous of sins.  That's not to say they are the only verses that reflect that sentiment or rejecting the deity of Christ/God/God's Holy Spirit but they are very clear ones and that is why I used them.

 

As for statements of conflict and conflicts in Scripture I believe that prayerful study and listening to God's teaching through His Holy Spirit will clear up many of what is thought to be conflicts and areas where it's felt that Scriptures contradict themselves.  I am curious as to where you feel that the Bible has those contradictions and what they are?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

I believe that prayerful study and listening to God's teaching through His Holy Spirit will clear up many of what is thought to be conflicts and areas where it's felt that Scriptures contradict themselves.  I am curious as to where you feel that the Bible has those contradictions and what they are?

________

I've heard many people say after much studying of God's word, He "revealed" to them what a scripture means. That's why I won't debate with people what I see a scripture saying. Most "Christians" won't admit that scriptures contradict each other. They'll give you every argument in the world that God Himself gave them.

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