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Originally posted by stephanie:
OK, let me re-word that then since "unAmerican" apparently is not correct -- "ANTI-AMERICAN" THEN.

I have never said that it was REQUIREMENT...it is a RIGHT...

But when you constantly berate your country and berate your President and have nothing positive to say about anything going on this country -- that is ANTI-AMERICAN...

In my humble opinion---being Anti-American is UnAmerican...I am entitled to my opinion...

Well stephanie, this puts us closer to common ground. A lot closer if you will allow me to use Anti-Neo Conservative instead of Anti-American to describe my position.
Since the President is not only a Neo Conservative,and since he has initiated policies designed and intended to further the success of those principals, and since his administration rests on those principals, I find myself in opposition to his administation.\
He rests his administrative philosophy on Neo Conservative Principals as outlined in the Statement of Principals of the Project for the New American Century, and employs managers and administrators who also subscribe to that statement of Principals. Dick Cheney is a co signer of the Statement.
He also employs managers and administrators who are accolytes of Professor Leo Strauss, who was a strong proponent of the Principals that led to the creation of the Project for the New American Century.

Supporters of the President, and His Foreign and Domestic Policies who HAVE NOT READ THE PNAC DOCUMENTS, RECOMMENDATIONS, AND STATEMENTS OF PRINCIPAL are operating in ignorance. The same can be said for those who oppose those principals without knowing what they are.

Principal One (my opinion) The United States has a moral right and obligation to dominate the world economy and the world's political instututions.

Principal Two (MHO) The United States must develop an overwhelming Military Force to prevent any nation from successfully resisting our domination.

I describe these principals as my opinion because they are paraphrase of the principals of the PNAC, and not quotes.

It is MY opinion that these principals are both immoral, and destructive to the character of the United States, and to the security of the people of the world.

LET'S GET ON WITH THE DEBATE.
"The essence of all religions is one. Only their approaches are different." ~Mahatma Gandhi
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I would prefer to do this debate in a seperate catagory, since I don't think it is news per se, and I am not sure this is the right venue for debate, any suggestions to a venue, or help in creating a discussion catagory for this would be appreciated.
But, barring objections from TimesDaily, this discussion catagory will do just fine with me.
You have some very strange ideas EdEKit. You hate Bush and his administration. I am not overly fond of some of the things he and his administration are doing, but he was legally elected to the office of the Presidency twice.

You fully support the Democcrats and their agenda, which in my opinion as well as many others, is an even worse fate for this country. The Democrats have two basic goals from what I have seen.

Goal One: to remove the basic rights enumerated by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Goal Two: to make the US into another Socialist state like the members of the EU.

These two goals will turn the people of the US into second class citizens in their own country. Creating just two classes of people, the ruling elite and everyone else as nothing more than peasant workers for the elite.

If you think that I am wrong, take a look at HR 1022 which is currently in commitee. This bill was authored by a Democrat to limit what kind of firearms a person may buy or own. It is a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment, and exceeds the previous weapons ban enacted under Bill Clinton. Another clear example is the Democrat party wanting amnesty for 12 million plus illegal aliens already in this country.

I am not trying to defend anything the Republican party is doing right now, as I can find plenty they are doing wrong and illegally. To say that the Democrat party is the only hope for this country is a completely foolish and naive idea.
Ed -- Call yourself what you want, but your comments on the forum that you took my comment from were what was relevant--you have nothing to say that is positive about America--it's president or it's people. youo have been ANTI-AMERICAN...in my opinion...Now, you want to take my comments and create it to be what you want it to be -- which is exactly what a Liberal does -- takes what is said in context and takes it out of context to fit his agenda...

BTW folks if you don't know where this has all come from it was from LIBERALS WANT thread that imho started...check it out to get the FULL CONTEXT BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO JUDGE ME...

I have to agree with airborne though--you are supporting an agenda that wants to eliminate the middle class...I personally like my place in life...I don't like everything that is going on in this world, but I am happy ... I don't have to bash someone or something to make myself look better or feel better...


Call me names I don't care...Take my comments and try to further your agenda...just remember you had to manipulate it to get to where you wanted to be...spoken like a true Liberal...oh wait, you admitted you are one...we have common ground there...
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
I would prefer to do this debate in a seperate catagory, since I don't think it is news per se, and I am not sure this is the right venue for debate, any suggestions to a venue, or help in creating a discussion catagory for this would be appreciated.
But, barring objections from TimesDaily, this discussion catagory will do just fine with me.


Take it to SPORTS.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
You have some very strange ideas EdEKit. You hate Bush and his administration. I am not overly fond of some of the things he and his administration are doing, but he was legally elected to the office of the Presidency twice.

You fully support the Democcrats and their agenda, which in my opinion as well as many others, is an even worse fate for this country. The Democrats have two basic goals from what I have seen.

Goal One: to remove the basic rights enumerated by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Goal Two: to make the US into another Socialist state like the members of the EU.

These two goals will turn the people of the US into second class citizens in their own country. Creating just two classes of people, the ruling elite and everyone else as nothing more than peasant workers for the elite.

If you think that I am wrong, take a look at HR 1022 which is currently in commitee. This bill was authored by a Democrat to limit what kind of firearms a person may buy or own. It is a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment, and exceeds the previous weapons ban enacted under Bill Clinton. Another clear example is the Democrat party wanting amnesty for 12 million plus illegal aliens already in this country.

I am not trying to defend anything the Republican party is doing right now, as I can find plenty they are doing wrong and illegally. To say that the Democrat party is the only hope for this country is a completely foolish and naive idea.
On your first point, removal of the basic rights enumerated by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That covers a lot of ground, but Habeus corpus comes to mind as a basic right. REMOVED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. Right to peaceful assembly, RESTRICTED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. Security of person from unreasonable search, RESTRICTED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. Right to petition for redress of Grievances. PROHIBITED TO DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS BY GW BUSH HIMSELF.

Goal Two, I don't believe that I have heard many people living in the EU complaining about their health services, their right to organize Labor Unions, or their right to strike. In fact, I keep hearing about strikes in France, over things as minor as increasing the hours of the workweek.
Regarding second amendment rights, the most recent increases in arms ownership was passed as a reaction to the attempted assination of Ronald Reagan. It is called the Brady bill. Portions of that bill have been allowed to expire. The expirations were part of a compromise in the passage of the legislation.
Regarding my "full support" of Democrats, you have a misconception. I support Democrats over Republicans, but to say that I would not be critical of corruption or bad policy supported by the Democratic Party, you are just not well enough acquainted with my political positions to make that judgement.
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Haha FatNoMo--that is pretty good...

i guess let the games begin...

Just know that I don't post much during the week, I do have job and a life ...so when I'm not posting...don't try to make something of that...KS already thinks I just fly through and troll so ... just a heads up...


SPORTS is the only alternative – TD won’t bestow us a POLITICS forum . . . It is certainly not ENTERTAINMENT
EdEKit,

Let's go through some of the flaws in what you just posted.

Habeus Corpus - This has been removed for the prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay. The people in question are under military jurisdiction as illegal enemy combatants. As such they do not receive most of the protections under the Geneva Convention, and being under military jurisdiction they are granted only the rights allowed by the military tribunals. Can you anem even one American citizen that has been falsely accused of a crime concerning terrorism that has been denied habeus corpus?

Right to peacefully assemble - I have yet to see any instance where a group has been denied the right to peacefully assemble. Please give me an example.

Security of an individual from unreasonable search - This may be true. I am not going to say that it has not happened. I will play a little Devil's Advocate on this however. Given the ability of terrorists to very quickly communicate in this electronic age, doing searches based on certain criteria is very prudent for law enforcement agencies to do so. The only way to be able to prevent a terrorist attack is to know exactly who is going to commit the act, when they are going to commit the act, where they are going to commit the act, and how they are going to commit the act. Without knowing all of the above information there is no way to effectively stop an attack. If an attack is somehow prevented without all of the above information it is a result of blind stupid luck more than anything else.

Right to petition for redress of grievances - This is a flat out lie. You know it EdEkit, and any denial of such will only prove my point. The Democrats have done more to deny this to Republicans that the other way around. An example is the Democrats demanding that they have a say in any political appointment made by President Bush, but rubber stamping any appointment by President Clinton. If you doubt that statement, look at how differently Justicve Ginsberg was treated during her confirmation hearings and how Justice Alito was treated. They were held to much different standards in the answers they had to give.

As far as the people of the EU are concerned, they may not be complaining now, but they will be within 20 years when their countries are completely bankrupt from all of the socialist policies already in place. As it stands right now France is facing the opening stages of bankruptcy and are unable to deal with the problem. Their work laws for hiring and firing of employees is suicidal at best.

The gun control laws did not originate with the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. They began 46 years earlier with the National Firearms Act. Go and actually read a history book that isn't a liberal revision of the facts. While some portions of the Brady Bill have been allowed to expire, they are constantly being replaced with even more draconian measures. If you doubt this, do like I tolf you before and look at HR 1022, which is currently in commitee.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
You have some very strange ideas EdEKit. You hate Bush and his administration. I am not overly fond of some of the things he and his administration are doing, but he was legally elected to the office of the Presidency twice.

You fully support the Democcrats and their agenda, which in my opinion as well as many others, is an even worse fate for this country. The Democrats have two basic goals from what I have seen.

Goal One: to remove the basic rights enumerated by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Goal Two: to make the US into another Socialist state like the members of the EU.

These two goals will turn the people of the US into second class citizens in their own country. Creating just two classes of people, the ruling elite and everyone else as nothing more than peasant workers for the elite.

If you think that I am wrong, take a look at HR 1022 which is currently in commitee. This bill was authored by a Democrat to limit what kind of firearms a person may buy or own. It is a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment, and exceeds the previous weapons ban enacted under Bill Clinton. Another clear example is the Democrat party wanting amnesty for 12 million plus illegal aliens already in this country.

I am not trying to defend anything the Republican party is doing right now, as I can find plenty they are doing wrong and illegally. To say that the Democrat party is the only hope for this country is a completely foolish and naive idea.


No, you have it all wrong. IN Combat, we fought for the guy next to us, not MOM'S APPLE PIE, Nor the GIRL NEXT DOOR, we fought for survival, while the SOB'S in Washiington D.C enjoy the good life, knowing their children will never have to go. (put their babies in harms way? you've got to be kidding!)
$60 billion in INTEREST a day paid out on our deficit is a criminal offense, and BUSH should be IMPEACHED for it. The Republican's have totally destroyed any hope for our children's future. Least we not forget the $360 plus paid out so far for this ignorant war, and getting larger every day.

Semper Fi,(carry on citizens!)
OK, before this thread gets way out of hand...we have already beaten the BUSH stuff on the original thread that started this topic.

As I said, Bush has right at a year left in office and whether we like it or not, he will not be impeached in that time frame. An impeachment proceding at this point would waste more money and time and energy than would be prudent for our country. So get over that fact that you think Bush should be impeached and bla bla bla...

This thread was started to debate the issues of what is anti-american and what is not--what is liberal on this topic and what is neo-conservative...

We have to stop dwelling in the pit of Bush Beating -- I don't like that we are in Iraq -- but i"m not gonna dwell on that fact...we have got to come up with some solutions to get our boys and girls home...blaming Bush does not fix this!!! Yes, you fought for your brother next to you not Mom's apple pie, but I still suppport the fact and appreciate the fact that you were willing to fight for my freedom and go where I can't go -- regardless of why you were there.

If every thread we start to discuss the actual policies and issues and try to find solutions and common ground are just going to turn into Bush Bashings and Democrat Loving that is pointless..that is like chldren fighting on a playground...

Delldude you posted that same comment on another thread that was completely irrelevant to Bush and the war as well -- we read your opinon and your point -- we get it...you can stop hitting repeat...move on ...

OMG--I'm even defending EdEKit..don't pass out...I want to see what true arguements can be discussed on this forum and see where we can find solutions in this debate...make it useful...
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
I would prefer to do this debate in a seperate catagory, since I don't think it is news per se, and I am not sure this is the right venue for debate, any suggestions to a venue, or help in creating a discussion catagory for this would be appreciated.
But, barring objections from TimesDaily, this discussion catagory will do just fine with me.


Which btw why is there not a POLITICS category...I guess the TD thinks politics is the only NEWS in the Shoals area...
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Haha FatNoMo--that is pretty good...

i guess let the games begin...

Just know that I don't post much during the week, I do have job and a life ...so when I'm not posting...don't try to make something of that...KS already thinks I just fly through and troll so ... just a heads up...


Uhhh, no, if there was a comment you read that said that, it was NOT directed at you... please give me the thread name, and I shall tell you who it was directed toward, but assure yourself, it wasn't you.

Besides, on another part of this forum, feedback, I THINK, I told you just what I thought, and didn't hear anything back to you, and I PM'ed you my opinion on whatever it was at the time and still didn't hear back from you... but I don't think you are a troll.. and if anyone here is a "HIT AND MISS" replier, that would have to be me...
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
I would prefer to do this debate in a seperate catagory, since I don't think it is news per se, and I am not sure this is the right venue for debate, any suggestions to a venue, or help in creating a discussion catagory for this would be appreciated.
But, barring objections from TimesDaily, this discussion catagory will do just fine with me.


Which btw why is there not a POLITICS category...I guess the TD thinks politics is the only NEWS in the Shoals area...


Your guess is as good as mine on this one... I created a couple of posts on FEEDBACK about getting a topic JUST FOR politics so the News could remain the News... but have heard ziltch from anyone about it, and that change hasn't been made, so I am assuming that they just don't want to do it.

Of course, a lot of people here don't read the FEEDBACK posts, so I guess there wasn't enough support on the posts for AM, AP, or TD to take note... but I assure you, I almost BEGGED them to make one.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
You have some very strange ideas EdEKit. You hate Bush and his administration. I am not overly fond of some of the things he and his administration are doing, but he was legally elected to the office of the Presidency twice.

You fully support the Democcrats and their agenda, which in my opinion as well as many others, is an even worse fate for this country. The Democrats have two basic goals from what I have seen.

Goal One: to remove the basic rights enumerated by the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Goal Two: to make the US into another Socialist state like the members of the EU.

These two goals will turn the people of the US into second class citizens in their own country. Creating just two classes of people, the ruling elite and everyone else as nothing more than peasant workers for the elite.

If you think that I am wrong, take a look at HR 1022 which is currently in commitee. This bill was authored by a Democrat to limit what kind of firearms a person may buy or own. It is a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment, and exceeds the previous weapons ban enacted under Bill Clinton. Another clear example is the Democrat party wanting amnesty for 12 million plus illegal aliens already in this country.

I am not trying to defend anything the Republican party is doing right now, as I can find plenty they are doing wrong and illegally. To say that the Democrat party is the only hope for this country is a completely foolish and naive idea.


I think probably the only REAL hope for this country right now is get BACK to the basics of the Constitution, and every American learn the Preamble, so that we once again become AMERICA, like it is SUPPOSED to be.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
EdEKit,

Let's go through some of the flaws in what you just posted.

Habeus Corpus - This has been removed for the prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay. The people in question are under military jurisdiction as illegal enemy combatants. As such they do not receive most of the protections under the Geneva Convention, and being under military jurisdiction they are granted only the rights allowed by the military tribunals. Can you anem even one American citizen that has been falsely accused of a crime concerning terrorism that has been denied habeus corpus?

Right to peacefully assemble - I have yet to see any instance where a group has been denied the right to peacefully assemble. Please give me an example.

Security of an individual from unreasonable search - This may be true. I am not going to say that it has not happened. I will play a little Devil's Advocate on this however. Given the ability of terrorists to very quickly communicate in this electronic age, doing searches based on certain criteria is very prudent for law enforcement agencies to do so. The only way to be able to prevent a terrorist attack is to know exactly who is going to commit the act, when they are going to commit the act, where they are going to commit the act, and how they are going to commit the act. Without knowing all of the above information there is no way to effectively stop an attack. If an attack is somehow prevented without all of the above information it is a result of blind stupid luck more than anything else.

Right to petition for redress of grievances - This is a flat out lie. You know it EdEkit, and any denial of such will only prove my point. The Democrats have done more to deny this to Republicans that the other way around. An example is the Democrats demanding that they have a say in any political appointment made by President Bush, but rubber stamping any appointment by President Clinton. If you doubt that statement, look at how differently Justicve Ginsberg was treated during her confirmation hearings and how Justice Alito was treated. They were held to much different standards in the answers they had to give.

As far as the people of the EU are concerned, they may not be complaining now, but they will be within 20 years when their countries are completely bankrupt from all of the socialist policies already in place. As it stands right now France is facing the opening stages of bankruptcy and are unable to deal with the problem. Their work laws for hiring and firing of employees is suicidal at best.

The gun control laws did not originate with the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. They began 46 years earlier with the National Firearms Act. Go and actually read a history book that isn't a liberal revision of the facts. While some portions of the Brady Bill have been allowed to expire, they are constantly being replaced with even more draconian measures. If you doubt this, do like I tolf you before and look at HR 1022, which is currently in commitee.

ONE, Jose Padilla, held for over four years without repressentation. US Citizen, NEVER held at Gitmo.
TWO Fre speech zones, applicable also to the right to petition.
THREE The administration has ADMITTED TO ILLEGAL SEARCHES AND ILLEGAL WIRETAPS AND ILLEGAL INSPECTIONS OF COMMUNICATIONS.
FOUR Refusal of the president to accept questions from Democrats in the US congress. Refusal to allow Non Republicans to attend Campaign and PUBLIC POLICY HEARINGS. Refusal to permit Fillibuster in the US Senate. Refusal to allow debate on the Patriot Act. THIS LIST IS THE LONGEST. There are literally thousands of examples of Bush Rejecting, without comment all manner of petitions.
FIVE. European style socialism provides a higher standard of living for the poor of Europe than the USA. Europeans lived with an Aristocratic Elite for Centuries. The Aristocracy and its arrogance was the ONLY CAUSE of the American Revolution, and the French Revolution. You are urging the American Aristocracy to TAKE OVER OUR NATION.
AND FINALLY THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT OF 1934. PASSED AND SIGNED DURING THE ADMINISTRATION OF REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HERBERT HOOVER. And it applies, as ALL federal firearms regulations apply ONLY TO THE INTERSTATE TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS. NOT THE POSSESSION OF FIREARMS. The arguement that Liberals want to take away firearms is fraudulent. The constitution Allows only state government to regulate the Militia, and ONLY STATE GOVERMENT TO REGULATE THE POSSESSION OF FIREARMS BY THAT "Well Regulated Militia." The mistake you are making is giving the Federal Government a Regulatory Authority that is DENIED IT BY THE TENTH AMENDMENT.
quote:
Originally posted by interventor:
As to peaceful assembly, I just saw on TV several thousand demonstration and generally making asses of themselves and not one got his head beat in. They may have been asses, but they got their permit and they were peaceful -- so they were not molested in any way.

I see several more thousand will do the same near Wall Street, NYC, today.
It is not necessary for MORE than one person to loose a civil right for all persons to have lost that right. THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT SELECTIVELY ALLOW AND PROHIBIT. When five thousand demonstators show up, wisdom dictates letting them peaceable assemble. When twenty show up, any fool can tell ten cops can send them packing.
A FREE SPEECH ZONE IS A RESTRICTION OF THE RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY ASSEMBLE. It requires the assembly to be in a specified location. It is not legal to hold a mass demonstration in the middle if I 95. That is not the problem. It could be illegal to hold the demonstration alongside I 95 if the President's Motorcade was to pass by.
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
OK, before this thread gets way out of hand...we have already beaten the BUSH stuff on the original thread that started this topic.
<SNIP>
This thread was started to debate the issues of what is anti-american and what is not--what is liberal on this topic and what is neo-conservative...

We have to stop dwelling in the pit of Bush Beating -- I don't like that we are in Iraq -- but i"m not gonna dwell on that fact...we have got to come up with some solutions to get our boys and girls home...blaming Bush does not fix this!!! Yes, you fought for your brother next to you not Mom's apple pie, but I still suppport the fact and appreciate the fact that you were willing to fight for my freedom and go where I can't go -- regardless of why you were there.

If every thread we start to discuss the actual policies and issues and try to find solutions and common ground are just going to turn into Bush Bashings and Democrat Loving that is pointless..that is like chldren fighting on a playground...

Delldude you posted that same comment on another thread that was completely irrelevant to Bush and the war as well -- we read your opinon and your point -- we get it...you can stop hitting repeat...move on ...

OMG--I'm even defending EdEKit..don't pass out...I want to see what true arguements can be discussed on this forum and see where we can find solutions in this debate...make it useful...
stephanie, you're right on two points, I opened this thread to debate you on the definition of Anti-American. and The definition of Anti-American does not include criticism of the President, Congress, The war in Iraq, or many other subjects.
Personally I think it is Anti-American to attack the fundamental principals of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I think I have been consistant in arguing that the Bush Administration is attacking those fundamental principals. Even the War In Iraq, justified or not, was not mandated by Congress, as the Constitution requires, with a Declaration of war. Bush has actually said, not with these exact words, that the United States is NOT at war with Iraq. He rerers to it as a "mission" or a "liberation" or, by its official title, "Operation Iraqi Freedom." His most frequent name for it is, "The War On Terror."
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:

ONE, Jose Padilla, held for over four years without repressentation. US Citizen, NEVER held at Gitmo.
TWO Fre speech zones, applicable also to the right to petition.
THREE The administration has ADMITTED TO ILLEGAL SEARCHES AND ILLEGAL WIRETAPS AND ILLEGAL INSPECTIONS OF COMMUNICATIONS.
FOUR Refusal of the president to accept questions from Democrats in the US congress. Refusal to allow Non Republicans to attend Campaign and PUBLIC POLICY HEARINGS. Refusal to permit Fillibuster in the US Senate. Refusal to allow debate on the Patriot Act. THIS LIST IS THE LONGEST. There are literally thousands of examples of Bush Rejecting, without comment all manner of petitions.
FIVE. European style socialism provides a higher standard of living for the poor of Europe than the USA. Europeans lived with an Aristocratic Elite for Centuries. The Aristocracy and its arrogance was the ONLY CAUSE of the American Revolution, and the French Revolution. You are urging the American Aristocracy to TAKE OVER OUR NATION.
AND FINALLY THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT OF 1934. PASSED AND SIGNED DURING THE ADMINISTRATION OF REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HERBERT HOOVER. And it applies, as ALL federal firearms regulations apply ONLY TO THE INTERSTATE TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS. NOT THE POSSESSION OF FIREARMS. The arguement that Liberals want to take away firearms is fraudulent. The constitution Allows only state government to regulate the Militia, and ONLY STATE GOVERMENT TO REGULATE THE POSSESSION OF FIREARMS BY THAT "Well Regulated Militia." The mistake you are making is giving the Federal Government a Regulatory Authority that is DENIED IT BY THE TENTH AMENDMENT.


ONE - Padilla has had access to lawyers. Try again genius.

TWO - Give me an example.

THREE - Many wiretaps are done illegally overseas and have been done so by every administration capable of doing them. The same goes with the searches. The Democrats are just as guilty and you don't complain about them.

FOUR - Is this any different than Clinton's illlegal and unconstitutional line item veto? NO it isn't.

FIVE - Go take a closer look at the countries of Europe. The cost of their socialist policies is far greater than what we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

The 2nd Amendment - Ed, you don't even have a basic comprehension of the English language. What part of "We The People" don't you understand? Yes, regulated militias are controlled by the individual states. However, the right to own and bear firearms is a personal right. If it is not then the right to free speech is not a personal right either, nor is the right to freedom of religion, nor the right to a fair trial by a jury of your peers, nor any other right you want to claim is a personal right. There are two types of militias defined in the US Constitution. One is a regulated militia, which has become the National Guard, and unregulated militia, which is every male from age 17 to 45 with a few exceptions as defined in the Constitution. The Federal government may regulate firearms only in accordance with interstae commerce, not who can own or bear a firearm. Most states also cannot control who can or cannot own and bear a firearm.

Here are some examples:

Alabama
quote:
"That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state." (Article 1, Section 26)


Your state, Arizona
quote:
"The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men." (Article 2, Section 26)


My home state
quote:
"Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned." (Article 1, Section 16)


The 2nd Amendment
quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


To explain this so even someone as uneducated as you are can understand it.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State means that a state has the right to maintain a regulated militia for its own defense.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. means that in order for the state to beable to maintain a well regulated militia, the people of the state have the individual right to keep and bear firearms, and that individual right shall not be infringed.

The NFA of 1934 is both illegal and unconstitutional because I can buy a Class III firearm in my state and still have to pay a tax on it, also I have to be checked out by the Federal government to be allowed to own such a firearm. Since the transaction of the purchasing of the firearms occurs within my state the Federal government, by the wording of the Constitution, has no say in the matter. Also, by my own state's constitution the state cannot question my reasons for owning or using such a firearm.

The 10th Amendment - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

According to the 10th Amendment, the Federal government has only the authority granted to it in the Constitution, and any authority reserved for the States, such as regulating a militia, is prohibited to the Federal government.

Simply put, the right to regulate a militia is reserved for the States only, and the right to keep and bear firearms is reserved as an individual right of the people. Therefore the NFA of 1934 is an unconstitutional act by the Federal govenrment, as is every Federal law that concerns the sale of a firearm within a state.

If a firearm is manufactured in CT, and then sold to a dealer in NY the Federal government has the authority to regulate only the taxes on the firearm. If the firearm is manufactured in CT and sold to a dealer in CT, and then sold to a citizen of CT the Federal government has no authority to tax the firearm in any manner nor regulate the sale of the firearm in any way.

It is just that simple. The Federal government has no say in the keeping and bearing of firearms, and neither do most states. Any federal or state law that tries to regulate the sale of firearms is an infringement on the 2nd
Amendment, and the same as taking away the right to keep and bear firearms.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:

ONE - Padilla has had access to lawyers. Try again genius.

TWO - Give me an example.

THREE - Many wiretaps are done illegally overseas and have been done so by every administration capable of doing them. The same goes with the searches. The Democrats are just as guilty and you don't complain about them.

FOUR - Is this any different than Clinton's illlegal and unconstitutional line item veto? NO it isn't.

FIVE - Go take a closer look at the countries of Europe. The cost of their socialist policies is far greater than what we are spending in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.

The 2nd Amendment - Ed, you don't even have a basic comprehension of the English language. What part of "We The People" don't you understand? Yes, regulated militias are controlled by the individual states. However, the right to own and bear firearms is a personal right. If it is not then the right to free speech is not a personal right either, nor is the right to freedom of religion, nor the right to a fair trial by a jury of your peers, nor any other right you want to claim is a personal right. There are two types of militias defined in the US Constitution. One is a regulated militia, which has become the National Guard, and unregulated militia, which is every male from age 17 to 45 with a few exceptions as defined in the Constitution. The Federal government may regulate firearms only in accordance with interstae commerce, not who can own or bear a firearm. Most states also cannot control who can or cannot own and bear a firearm.

Here are some examples:

Alabama
quote:
"That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state." (Article 1, Section 26)


Your state, Arizona
quote:
"The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men." (Article 2, Section 26)


My home state
quote:
"Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned." (Article 1, Section 16)


The 2nd Amendment
quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


To explain this so even someone as uneducated as you are can understand it.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State means that a state has the right to maintain a regulated militia for its own defense.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. means that in order for the state to beable to maintain a well regulated militia, the people of the state have the individual right to keep and bear firearms, and that individual right shall not be infringed.

The NFA of 1934 is both illegal and unconstitutional because I can buy a Class III firearm in my state and still have to pay a tax on it, also I have to be checked out by the Federal government to be allowed to own such a firearm. Since the transaction of the purchasing of the firearms occurs within my state the Federal government, by the wording of the Constitution, has no say in the matter. Also, by my own state's constitution the state cannot question my reasons for owning or using such a firearm.

The 10th Amendment - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

According to the 10th Amendment, the Federal government has only the authority granted to it in the Constitution, and any authority reserved for the States, such as regulating a militia, is prohibited to the Federal government.

Simply put, the right to regulate a militia is reserved for the States only, and the right to keep and bear firearms is reserved as an individual right of the people. Therefore the NFA of 1934 is an unconstitutional act by the Federal govenrment, as is every Federal law that concerns the sale of a firearm within a state.

If a firearm is manufactured in CT, and then sold to a dealer in NY the Federal government has the authority to regulate only the taxes on the firearm. If the firearm is manufactured in CT and sold to a dealer in CT, and then sold to a citizen of CT the Federal government has no authority to tax the firearm in any manner nor regulate the sale of the firearm in any way.

It is just that simple. The Federal government has no say in the keeping and bearing of firearms, and neither do most states. Any federal or state law that tries to regulate the sale of firearms is an infringement on the 2nd
Amendment, and the same as taking away the right to keep and bear firearms.
ONE Padilla got representation, and to meet with his repressentation AFTER MORE THAN FOUR YEARS OF CONFINEMENT WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. He did not meet his lawyers until they BROKE INTO THE JAIL.
The did it through the federal court system. More than once before they actually succeeded. FIND A NEW SONG. Padilla's right to Habeus was VIOLATED REPEATEDLY.
TWO. The Democratic national convention in NYC. a group of 250 bicyclists, riding a regular route on a schedule that was more than five years old, were taken into custody and held in a warehouse with a few hundered other people for being near the Convention Center early one Sunday morning. On their bicycles. Obviously a gang of disgruntled physical fitness nuts.
I personally was turned away from two appearances by GW Bush in Phoenix because I am a registered Democrat. Two High School Journalism students were denied access to a policy speech in South Dakota because their High School Newspaper had published an article critical of GW Bush. A member of the City Council was also refused a ticket of admission.
THREE, The violation of civil rights by Liechtenstein or Russia, or China does not justify or forgive the same violation by THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. Here or abroad.
FOUR. Again. TWO WRONGS HAVE NOT YET ADDED UP TO A SINGLE RIGHT. I AM NOT DEFENDING CLINTON YOU (insult deleted by EdEKit.)
FIVE You are absolutely correct, and the money they are spending on social programs and internal affairs are 1) not my concern, and 2) not killing anybody. and 3) improving the lives of their citizens. Unlike the billions being spent, ostensibly to protect not only the USA from a handfull of criminals, but to protect the world from those same criminals.

Your final Point. Regarding the Second Amendment. WHAT PART OF WELL REGULATED do you fail to understand. Each and EVERY entry you presented in defense of STATE responisbility and right to regulate is additional proof of my statement that the states are where your problem with gun confiscation originates, and the Federal Government, as I clearly stated, has only the obligation to regulate the interstate transportation of arms and ammunition. The federal government has NO RIGHT TO CONFISCATE ARMS. And, if the federal government ever attempts to ursurp that right from the states, I will be beside you in attempting to prevent it.
Till then, attack your LOCAL LIBERAL GUN CONFISCATOR.
I missed something, regarding interstate commerce. ANY ITEM IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE IS SUBJECT TO FEDERAL REGULATION. Automobiles MUST meet federal standards to be imported in the USA or sold in interstate commerce. All Automobiles sold in any state must comply with state standards to be SOLD in that state. HOWEVER. No State Can "without demonstrable public necessity" prohibit the use of any Automobile duly licensed and in compliance with the laws of ANY state. However, the federal goverment could, if it found it necessary, require that automobiles registered in Alabama REMAIN in Alabama. But they could not require that People Born in Alabama remain in Alabama. I am using cars and people instead of guns and people, in a deliberate attempt to side track you Airborn, don't take the bait.
EdEkit,

You are just pouting off with more liberal lies. Try to actually debate something intelligently. You still defend everything the Democrats do as being within the Constitution, which it isn't.

I have never said that the Republicans are right on everything they do, far from it.

What is going on in Europe had better be your concern, because that is exactly what the Democrats are trying to do here.

The state only has the authority to regulate the militia, the keeping and bearing of firearms is an individual right not a right of the States. Just for your information genius, the Fedreal government has confiscated firearms. What do you think the Federalized NG troops were doing in New Orleans after Katrina.

I have never seen a person so blinded by party loyalty and act so stupidly as you do. Go to your local commuity college and actually try to learn something for a change.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
EdEkit,

You are just pouting off with more liberal lies. Try to actually debate something intelligently. You still defend everything the Democrats do as being within the Constitution, which it isn't.

I have never said that the Republicans are right on everything they do, far from it.

What is going on in Europe had better be your concern, because that is exactly what the Democrats are trying to do here.

The state only has the authority to regulate the militia, the keeping and bearing of firearms is an individual right not a right of the States. Just for your information genius, the Fedreal government has confiscated firearms. What do you think the Federalized NG troops were doing in New Orleans after Katrina.

I have never seen a person so blinded by party loyalty and act so stupidly as you do. Go to your local commuity college and actually try to learn something for a change.
Again, your opinion of me as a person is getting in the way.
I am aware, perhaps more aware than you of what is going on in Europe. I actually have almost daily conversations with people in Sweden, London, Frankfort, and (not Europe) Austrailia. I also converse with Canadians, a New Zeelander, and in daily life immigrants from Vietnam, Mexico, Argentina, Bosnia, and Africa. It is not my concern how the government acts in Switzerland, it does not affect me. However, the effect on the people of Switzerland is of interest to me. You attack the cost of providing social services. You point out that the people of Switzerland pay those costs. You are factually correct in both cases. You are of the opinion that Switzerland should not play Robin Hood. At least that is the opinion you are defending by pointing out the facts. The facts are indisputable. You are totally correct to the extent you use the facts. What you fail to recognize is that I KNOW THOSE FACTS, and still support the ideals and practice that those facts necessitate. I know, and occasionally point out, that the war in Iraq is costing more per person than the social programs in Europe. This time YOU pointed that out.

The states are required, by the Second Amendment to maintain Militias. Congress has the power to establish an Army, and is required to maintain a Navy. Article One, Section Eight. Congress is required to call forth the Militia to execute the laws of the UNION, suppress insurrections and repel Invasions. The states are required to maintain Militias. Article One, Section eight.
quote:
Article II Section 2: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

Airborn, the constitution is a legal document. It is written in Legal Language. Article I Section 8 IS A SINGLE SENTANCE. It begins, "Congress shall have Power To lay and collect taxes . . . (and ends). . . To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the forgoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department of Officer thereof."

The Second amendment is also a single sentance. It guarantees the citizen the RIGHT TO SERVE IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA. Included in the Right to serve in a well regulated militia is the right to be armed.
Regardless of what you think of my personal feelings about arms and civilians and confiscation and the rest of the bull you sling. The Second Amendment does not guarantee anyoone unfettered access to firearms. It does guarantee the states the right to regulate the Militias, that are clearly mandated by the Constitution.
The Fact that the Alabama, and Arizona constitutions guarantee citizens the right to bear arms is irrelevant to the Federal Position.
SCREAM YOUR HEAD OFF. It will not change the Fact that you are attacking a straw man. The issue of confiscation of firearms is A STATE issue, and it is up to the individual states to make and enforce laws that 1. create a well regulated militia. 2. regulate the manner in which that militia is armed. 3. permit any citizen the right to be a member of that militia. 4. regulate ALL militias withing the jurisdiction of the individual states.

Finally, WHAT IMBICILE WOULD CREATE A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT THAT WAS REQUIRED TO ALLOW THE PEOPLE TO REVOLT AGANIST IT WITH ARMS THEY WERE PERMITTED BY THE GOVERNMENT THEY WERE ATTACKING.
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Our Founding Fathers created just that...imbecile...it's spelled wrong...
I gotta start proof reading.

THEY DID NOT. THEY WERE NOT IMBECILES. They Created a nation that went to war to preserve itself. I hope you are not unfamiliar with the War of Northern Aggression. (Civil War, War Between the States, Southern Rebellion)

If there is a constitutional guarantee of the right to battle the United States Government, you have a right to sue in court for secession and Independence.
EdEkit,

You need to actually open your small mind to the reasoning of the US Constitution. Try looking at all of the writings of the foounding fathers at the time they wrote the Constitution. All of them had just finished fighting a war against a tyrannical government, with each state being an autonomous entity in its own right. They fully understood that any Federal government could end up becoming as tyrannical as the one they had just defeated, if not worse. The true purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to give the people the ability to defend themselves in just such a situation. IF you were toactually bother reading the Constitution you will see that there are two forms of militia defined in the Constitution. A regulated militia, which is a formed unit. The regulated militia is now commonly referred to as the National Guard. Then there is the unregulated militia, which is every able bodied malew between the ages of 17 and 45. The are a few exceptions to this group. Those being due to religious or documented personal beliefs, certain government positions, and one other case which I can't remember right off the top of my head.

Another mistake you make is that the Constitution is written in legal terms. It was written to be as plain as possible. The Democrats and Republicans, more so the Democrats but both are guilty, have used legal arguments to pervert the meaning of the founding fathers.

You never fail to amaze me with your lack of intelligence when making an argument. You have no problem with "reasonable gun control" and yet claim to be pro gun in your opinions. The problem is that there is no "reasonable gun control" because it always leads to more and more restrictions for those that should have free access to firarms.

Now do everyone, including yourself, a favor by actually getting an education. When you finally learn that you have no idea what you are talking about, and have been doing nothing more than spreading lies, then maybe you and I can finally have a reasonable discussion. Until then, please refrain from staying up past your bed time.
Last edited by airborne92
ED. Please tell me you really didn't mean to say the following:
quote:
The Second amendment is also a single sentance. It guarantees the citizen the RIGHT TO SERVE IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA. Included in the Right to serve in a well regulated militia is the right to be armed.

So you're telling me that the 2nd amendment gives me the right to serve in the militia and be armed while I'm doing it. That is the most ASSININE comment I have EVER heard spewed about the 2nd amendment. Even you aren't that stupid... are you?
Last edited by Southern Patriot
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
ED. Please tell me you really didn't mean to say the following:
quote:
The Second amendment is also a single sentance. It guarantees the citizen the RIGHT TO SERVE IN A WELL REGULATED MILITIA. Included in the Right to serve in a well regulated militia is the right to be armed.

So you're telling me that the 2nd amendment gives me the right to serve in the militia and be armed while I'm doing it. That is the most ASSININE comment I have EVER heard spewed about the 2nd amendment. Even you aren't that stupip... are you?


Unfortunately Southern Patriot, I truly think he is.
Fella, the US supreme court has ruled my way. That is how it becomes legal for the City of New York to regulate the possession of firearms.

Sorry to disappoint, but the issue here is not being understood.

The states have a MANDADTE under the Second Amendment to regulate the Militia, and they have the liberty to regulate the ownership of Arms. CHICAGO LEGALLY CONFISCATED WEAPONS. The Federal Government is PROHIBITED, by the constitution from Confiscating Weapons. Look at the law regarding Firearms on Airplanes. I can not take a gun into the passenger cabin of an Airliner. BUT, I can, and have, put firearms in the hold of the Airplane. If I try to take the firearm into the cabin by possessing it in the bording area I am committing a felony. If I put it in Checked Luggage, I am totally legal. Why is that? It's because the CONSTITUTION forbids the Department of Homeland Security from confiscating the weapon.

THE NRA LIES.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
Fella, the US supreme court has ruled my way. That is how it becomes legal for the City of New York to regulate the possession of firearms.

Sorry to disappoint, but the issue here is not being understood.

The states have a MANDADTE under the Second Amendment to regulate the Militia, and they have the liberty to regulate the ownership of Arms. CHICAGO LEGALLY CONFISCATED WEAPONS. The Federal Government is PROHIBITED, by the constitution from Confiscating Weapons. Look at the law regarding Firearms on Airplanes. I can not take a gun into the passenger cabin of an Airliner. BUT, I can, and have, put firearms in the hold of the Airplane. If I try to take the firearm into the cabin by possessing it in the bording area I am committing a felony. If I put it in Checked Luggage, I am totally legal. Why is that? It's because the CONSTITUTION forbids the Department of Homeland Security from confiscating the weapon.

THE NRA LIES.


That is why a Federal Appeals Court ruled that the Washigton DC gun ban was illegal and thus given precident to overturn the other bans which take away a person's right under the 2nd Amendment.

The only one lying here is you.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
Fella, the US supreme court has ruled my way. That is how it becomes legal for the City of New York to regulate the possession of firearms.

Sorry to disappoint, but the issue here is not being understood.

The states have a MANDADTE under the Second Amendment to regulate the Militia, and they have the liberty to regulate the ownership of Arms. CHICAGO LEGALLY CONFISCATED WEAPONS. The Federal Government is PROHIBITED, by the constitution from Confiscating Weapons. Look at the law regarding Firearms on Airplanes. I can not take a gun into the passenger cabin of an Airliner. BUT, I can, and have, put firearms in the hold of the Airplane. If I try to take the firearm into the cabin by possessing it in the bording area I am committing a felony. If I put it in Checked Luggage, I am totally legal. Why is that? It's because the CONSTITUTION forbids the Department of Homeland Security from confiscating the weapon.

THE NRA LIES.


OK Ed. What is your excuse for the D.C gun laws being overturned as violating the 2nd Amendment? The states have no right or ability to control gun owenership based on what is written in the 2nd amendment. I don't care what F'd up way you want to interpet it, the 2nd amendment is an individual right to keep and bear. As far as confiscation, I don't know how you brought that into this discussion. And you know what Ed? Who the hell says you aren't the liar and the NRA is right.. other than you?
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
Fella, the US supreme court has ruled my way. That is how it becomes legal for the City of New York to regulate the possession of firearms.

Sorry to disappoint, but the issue here is not being understood.

The states have a MANDADTE under the Second Amendment to regulate the Militia, and they have the liberty to regulate the ownership of Arms. CHICAGO LEGALLY CONFISCATED WEAPONS. The Federal Government is PROHIBITED, by the constitution from Confiscating Weapons. Look at the law regarding Firearms on Airplanes. I can not take a gun into the passenger cabin of an Airliner. BUT, I can, and have, put firearms in the hold of the Airplane. If I try to take the firearm into the cabin by possessing it in the bording area I am committing a felony. If I put it in Checked Luggage, I am totally legal. Why is that? It's because the CONSTITUTION forbids the Department of Homeland Security from confiscating the weapon.

THE NRA LIES.


OK Ed. What is your excuse for the D.C gun laws being overturned as violating the 2nd Amendment? The states have no right or ability to control gun owenership based on what is written in the 2nd amendment. I don't care what F'd up way you want to interpet it, the 2nd amendment is an individual right to keep and bear. As far as confiscation, I don't know how you brought that into this discussion. And you know what Ed? Who the hell says you aren't the liar and the NRA is right.. other than you?
Your Ignorance is showing. DC IS UNDER THE DIRECT JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS. IT IS NOT A STATE, IT HAS NO MANDATE TO MAINTAIN A MILITIA. It has no Authority to Confiscate Firearms. It is NOT a state.
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Try again Ed. They specifically said the law violated the 2nd amendment by banning guns.
try agaibn SP, the District of Columbia IS NOT A STATE. It is governed by the United States. GW Bush is the Governor (equivelent) it does not have a constitution, the city council and mayor cannot pass legislation that is not allowed by either the US Constitution or the US Congress. THE NRA LIES. If congress passes legislation allowing the DC City council to outlaw handguns, the NRA will use the vote as a cause celebre' DC IS NOT SOVEREIGN.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by Southern Patriot:
Try again Ed. They specifically said the law violated the 2nd amendment by banning guns.
try agaibn SP, the District of Columbia IS NOT A STATE. It is governed by the United States. GW Bush is the Governor (equivelent) it does not have a constitution, the city council and mayor cannot pass legislation that is not allowed by either the US Constitution or the US Congress. THE NRA LIES. If congress passes legislation allowing the DC City council to outlaw handguns, the NRA will use the vote as a cause celebre' DC IS NOT SOVEREIGN.

If that was there reasoning Ed, why did the court even bother refrencing the 2nd amendment in their ruling? They could have left it at D.C. has no power to pass laws.

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