Skip to main content

Originally Posted by lexum:

I'm concerned about a group of people selling the idea of suicide as does the Humanist group.

 SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would sa***uard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.[HUMANIST MANIFESTO II]

we have several members on this forum who are members of the Humanist group of The Shoals.

 

   a carful study so far of this group and their attitudes point to a Jim Jones type mentality and they do consider thems to be a religious Humanist group.

 

     these people do have children , the metric being now.

 

i'm not atall comfortable with young innocent children being exposed to this mentality.

 

      adot, since you are involved with this group can you give concerned citizens assurance that the humanist are not exposing minors to suicide as an accepted alternative?

 

On another thread Infomercial asks this question:

 

"Don't you think it's the humanists' business what they teach their kids. Suicide isn't murder."

==========================================================================

    Question:  Do you agree that teaching children the option of suicide?

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Best I’m saying: a careful study in this instance being mine and to include a careful study by anyone can see the similarities to a Jim Jones mentality. Read the Humanist Manifesto for yourself. The followers are  pre-occupied with self destruction fueled by desperation and paranoia.

Religion and religious people appear as a boogie man behind every shadow.

       The terminology of the three manifestos are obviously designed to just skirt  around the norms of society luring the unsuspecting candidate into a prison of mind control.

       Once an idea that society on the outside of this cult is seen as an uninformed hoard, society becomes the enemy that cannot be conquered and in protest, the mentality creeps in that the logical thing to do is remove themselves from the dilemma by suicide.

          Humanism has been around for a long time waiting for the accident to happen. The reward for them , crazy as it may seem is: society must bear the guilt by being left around to tell how it happened.

(June 3, 2010, Washington D.C.)  Today, leadership at the American Humanist Association mourned the death of Dr. Jack Kevorkian, a physician, humanitarian, and brazen advocate for end-of-life choice. Dr. Kevorkian was given the Humanist Hero Award by the American Humanist Association in 1994. The American Humanist Association became one of the first national organizations to support end of life choices in a 1974 statement.

“Dr. Kevorkian led the charge for the right of those who wanted the freedom to end their suffering,” said Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association. “His unwavering determination in the face of protest, and even legal repercussions, was a testament to his strong conviction and compassion.”

Dr. Kevorkian spent much his career advocating for the legalization of euthanasia. With a strong sense of ethics, Kevorkian refused 97 percent of assisted suicide requests received, reserving his services for the terminally ill and suffering.http://www.americanhumanist.or...vorkian-advocate-for

 

I fail to see how any rational person cannot see Kovorkian as fringe.

 

          "suffering" certainly is a description of the delimma the atheist/humanist claim as a result of Christianity and religion as a whole. The humanist/atheist have long-suffered since the 40's. It remains to be seen when and what will trigger a headlong rush into the sea.

 

       i would suggest that if you are being caught up in this Humanist movement to distance yourself from it and it's members.

Best I know of no Christian group that condones suicide .

The Humanist teach suicide as a rational alternative to “suffering” which can include physical, mental or imagined.

   I,‘m not saying you are a humanist and I hope you have sense enough not to teach children that suicide is an alternative to include an escape from bullying, breakups etc……what you may see as an adult as non-rational is not always seen that way by children.

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey buff, what do you consider "pulling the plug" on a loved one to be?? Is that murder or assisted suicide? 

=============================================================

neither one

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What is it then? It means the family is causing a death, so what do you call it?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by lexum:

Best I know of no Christian group that condones suicide .

The Humanist teach suicide as a rational alternative to “suffering” which can include physical, mental or imagined.

   I,‘m not saying you are a humanist and I hope you have sense enough not to teach children that suicide is an alternative to include an escape from bullying, breakups etc……what you may see as an adult as non-rational is not always seen that way by children.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Buff, look at the polls. Not even you can claim that all the people polled are humanists. Jim Jones condoned suicide and that was a christian group. And I ask again, what do christians call "pulling the plug"?

I'm of a more "liberal" denomination of churches. You don't have to be a humanist to support euthanasia.  I watched the wife of a friend die recently. I was a long, agonizing, undignified death for someone who was so full of life up until a few months ago.  She stood absolutely no chance of survival. Her husband and children had to endure her pain while she wasted away. Why in the world would anyone pretend to judge this family if they were able to make a choice to end her suffering? 

Best , the family is not causing a death. You ask me was pulling the plug murder or assisted suicide.

I say neither one. Teaching children that suicide is an alternative to “suffering” is insane.

It is a part of this cult teaching. Best if you are being sucked into this humanist madness you need to talk atheists that are not sucked in by humanism. There are normal atheist out there but not on this forum.

I have an atheist friend and I can tell you he ain’t going to join a humanist group any sooner than he will join some church.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Best , the family is not causing a death. You ask me was pulling the plug murder or assisted suicide.

I say neither one. Teaching children that suicide is an alternative to “suffering” is insane.

It is a part of this cult teaching. Best if you are being sucked into this humanist madness you need to talk atheists that are not sucked in by humanism. There are normal atheist out there but not on this forum.

I have an atheist friend and I can tell you he ain’t going to join a humanist group any sooner than he will join some church.

 

 

Stop being evasive and answer the question. What is the family doing when they "pull the plug" and cause the death of their loved one? I'm not being "sucked into" anything. You have no idea how I personally feel about the subject. You made a claim so I'm asking you how "assisted suicide" and "pulling the plug" are different and apparently you're stuck. Also you won't address the many christians that think assisted suicide is OK.  You can't provide a link to a study equating humanists to jim jones. I'm a "normal" atheist. There are very few normal christians on this forum and you aren't among them. You come across as deranged. You sound like bill when you claim you have an atheist friend. Neither of you would have an atheist for a friend and I can't imagine an atheist that would want to be a friend to either of you and put up with the abuse you'd heap on them on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Don’t be so mean and hateful best I’m just trying to have a sensible conversation. What in hell is your problem anyhow? You always have your butt up over your shoulder .

    Lighten up

Mean and hateful? How so? Because I ask you a simple question? If you can't answer, and if you can't provide links for your claims just say so. And while you're at it, show me my "mean and hateful" post. Funny how you and a few others call it mean and hateful when someone asks you a question you can't answer.

Frank, it means that a small group of pizzed off people cannot  make decisions that effect everyone else [factions]

       A single county government cannot make decisions to the disruption of the whole state.

A single state cannot decide as a  ruler over the union.

   The Federal government allows for a single vote by the citizenry to elect candidates.  Based on the outcome of the vote the electoral college decides on the voters behalf if they have had sense enough to vote to begin with..

     Then it’s all down hill from there. Congress makes your decisions for you. It is not based on a chicken in every pot but to reward the rich who deserve it to begin with.

     After all what are factions and the average Joe going to do with the money if they get their hands on it?

They buy ciggrats, beer and nerds.

   

     Common folk don’t deserve anything if they did they would become the best at something, join a union charge the wealthy for their service until they puke and then charge them for puking. Then there is no money to be stolen by CEOs and white collar thieves because the skilled worker is buying Corvettes and building new houses the economy is booming and everyone has a smile on their face you couldn’t get off with a side grinder. That is the way to keep track of the money. It’s in yo pocket. The skilled worker or service person.

1. best i don't consider it murder.
 
2. I don't consider it assisted suicide.
answer to earlier question:
People’s Temple Christian Church, Jim Jones, Jonestown, Guyana: Jones, influenced by Unitarian Humanism, Father Divine, and Marxism, founded his church in 1977. He later claimed at various times to be God, Buddha, and Lenin. In 1978 at Jones’ command, 914 people (including Jones) committed suicide or were murdered. The group is now defunct.

Destructive cults

The People's Temple, led by
James Warren (Jim) Jones

horizontal rule

 

horizontal rule

Background of the Peoples Temple:

This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.)  

Oh, sorry, I call it no one else’s business but have made it their business to make judgment on behalf of another person. My dear friend was in a coma over a  year ago for weeks and kept alive by science, the family was called in to make the decision to unplug her. We were all notified . The doctor said lets wait one more day. This summer I went to her house picked her up , took her to The Sweetwater Mansion, dressed her in a long dress with hoop-skirt , silk hat with ribbons and a silk fan in her hand and sat with her on the lawn and heard her say “I’ve always wanted to do this” she is a Gone With The Wind fan. She’s still living.

    I hope I never have to make that decision for anyone but I would not criticize anyone that did.

You may call it no one else's business but still, is it assisted suicide or murder? It ends in the death of the person so what do you call it buff? Come on, you can do better than that. Why would the doctor call in the family only to tell them to "wait one more day"? Sounds odd to me. So what is it buff, murder or assisted suicide?

Originally Posted by lexum:

Wul best it’s certainly not suicide because the person dying is not making the decision.

In my opinion it’s not murder for sure but if you think it’s murder you are entitled to that belief.

 

 

I haven't given you my opinion. I'm asking you which it is. Apparently you think it's not suicide or murder if it's a "christian" deciding. The person dying could very well have made the decision. People let their wishes be known all the time. So if they're dying and the family knows they want the plug pulled they are in effect, using your logic, assisting suicide. If the doctor advises they "pull the plug" then again using your logic, it's murder. Both things you don't seem to have a problem with as long as it's christians doing it.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey buff, what do you consider "pulling the plug" on a loved one to be?? Is that murder or assisted suicide? 

=============================================================

neither one

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What is it then? It means the family is causing a death, so what do you call it?

 

Best, I'm going to assume you're too kind to ask this question except in these circumstances when you want to argue with lexum, or whomever he may call himself today. Yes, we have the power to keep alive patients that would have died 100 years ago,,,or even 50 years ago. Is that what you want for yourself, a prolonged life of agony?

 

One story that garnered much news a few years ago was Joe DiMaggio. "He came home from the hosptial." Yes, he did, He couldn't walk. He could barely move. He couldn't eat. He was fed via a gastrostomy. He had round the clock nursing care. In the end, he still died a few months later.

 

Do you want to be kept alive by artificial means? To be fed via a g-tube after you're no longer able to move or swallow? I don't.

 

Pulling he plug is not murder when the patient is brain dead or will be dead within a matter of days. That's simple humanity.

Oh so it was all about critchuns huh?

My intention was to point out the insane idea that humanists teach suicide as an alternative ideal to children who might see a break-up or teen pregnancy as a reason to kill themselves,.

I never intended it to go to the unplug argument. But that’s ok. We’ll argue it too.

 It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. 

 

 

Now where is all the other stuff you mentioned below buff? It's not in your copy/paste post so where is it?

 

 

My intention was to point out the insane idea that humanists teach suicide as an alternative ideal to children who might see a break-up or teen pregnancy as a reason to kill themselves,

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Fire, I want buff to explain to me why he's upset with the humanists. Seems he has a problem with them alone about assisted suicide or "pulling the plug." I haven't given my opinion about it so I don't know where your little lecture comes from. 

===================================

i'm not talking about assisted suicide bestun.

   I'm talking about humanist teaching children that it's ok to commit suicide.

Humanism is child abuse.

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Fire, I want buff to explain to me why he's upset with the humanists. Seems he has a problem with them alone about assisted suicide or "pulling the plug." I haven't given my opinion about it so I don't know where your little lecture comes from. 

===================================

i'm not talking about assisted suicide bestun.

   I'm talking about humanist teaching children that it's ok to commit suicide.

Humanism is child abuse.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And I want a link to that claim, which you can't provide because it's not true. 

but here it is:

 

SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would sa***uard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

http://contenderministries.org...anism/manifesto2.php

 

" See Spot Run?" it's easy to learn to read.

" It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide."

I don't think Lexum understands that there is a difference between euthanasia at suicide.  Euthanasia is a cessation of life from the actions of others.  Suicide is from the actions of one's self. ow in the world do we live in a world where, if I am diagnosed with a terminal illness and do not wish to face the inevitable pain and suffering, I am not able to make an informed choice to terminate my own life?  Lexum, it does not appear that humanists are advocating for unrestrained suicide any more than unrestrained euthanasia.  They are advocating for the right of people to make informed choices about the end of their lives.  What is so evil about that? Would you advocate removing my right to decide if if I want to end my own life? Seriously trying to understand what you are trying to say - other than vilifying a group of people who are guilty only of thinking differently than you.  

Yes frank lex knows the difference but where does the atheist/humanist draw the line when teaching small children that suicide is an acceptable option? Say a child has a problem fitting in at school, is suicide an option. I think you are stretching to think children should be taught this article of the manifesto. I say it’s child abuse in its most bizarre form being criminal.

EIGHTH: We are committed to an open and democratic society. We must extend participatory democracy in its true sense to the economy, the school, the family, the workplace, and voluntary associations. Decision-making must be decentralized to include widespread involvement of people at all levels -- social, political, and economic. All persons should have a voice in developing the values and goals that determine their lives. Institutions should be responsive to expressed desires and needs. The conditions of work, education, devotion, and play should be humanized. Alienating forces should be modified or eradicated and bureaucratic structures should be held to a minimum. People are more important than decalogues, rules, proscriptions, or regulations.

ELEVENTH: The principle of moral equality must be furthered through elimination of all discrimination based upon race, religion, sex, age, or national origin. This means equality of opportunity and recognition of talent and merit. Individuals should be encouraged to contribute to their own betterment. If unable, then society should provide means to satisfy their basic economic, health, and cultural needs, including, wherever resources make possible, a minimum guaranteed annual income. We are concerned for the welfare of the aged, the infirm, the disadvantaged, and also for the outcasts -- the mentally retarded, abandoned, or abused children, the handicapped, prisoners, and addicts -- for all who are neglected or ignored by society. Practicing humanists should make it their vocation to humanize personal relations.

Originally Posted by lexum:

i figger if you would wish me dead you are capable of anything.

 

 

Well, that's another thing you can show me, where i wished you dead. RP said the person "attempted" suicide. Not committed. But the truth doesn't matter to you members of the "liars club" and cryabeetus crowd. You're pulling a bill and trying to pull attention away from the fact that you lied. 

at·tempt·ed, at·tempt·ing, at·tempts

1. To try to perform, make, or achieve:
 
Definition of commit (verb)
forms: committed; committed; committing

to perform; to do; to engage
 

This is the current and active Humanist manifesto.

 

HUMANISM AND ITS ASPIRATIONS

Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933*

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

For historical purposes, see preceding Humanist Manifestos: I and II.

 

......a quote from Manifesto III

"Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death"

 

IF you  get a wad of these people and convince them that  "Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals" and the finality of death, you got yourself some Jim Jones. i would suspect under the right circumstances they might just insist at gunpoint you drink the cool-aide.

From your christian manifesto:

 

Do we not serve our deepest convictions if we decide to end our life at the moment in which its sacredness becomes compromised?

 

 

IF you  get a wad of these people and convince them that  "Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals" and the finality of death, you got yourself some Jim Jones. i would suspect under the right circumstances they might just insist at gunpoint you drink the kool-aide.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Destructive cults

The People's Temple, led by
James Warren (Jim) Jones

horizontal rule

 

horizontal rule

Background of the Peoples Temple:

This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.)  

 

This is inaccurate. Jim Jones was not a Christian and The People's Temple was not a church. Jones was an atheist and his "temple" was an experiment in Communism.

 

Just like other attempts at Communism, it failed and cost lives in the process.

 

To say that Jones was a Christian and his "temple" was a place of religious worship is historically incorrect.

 

"By spring 1976, Jones openly admitted even to outsiders that he was an atheist."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P..._Temple#cite_note-53  See citation 53.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Nice try but jones was a "christian". 

Please see the transcript cited. Jones stated in his own words that he was an atheist.

 

"Off the record, I don’t believe in any loving God. Our people, I would say, are ninety percent atheist." - Jim Jones 1976.

 

"My bishop knows that I’m an atheist. He— He knows that I— I— I recognize only love, when I say— I’ll say, 'God is Love'" - Jim Jones 1976

 

Both taken from the same FBI tape of a recorded phone conversation.

 

You don't have to take my word on it, the citation has been provided if you choose to review it.

I just read this whole thread for the first time. I think it's hilarious that Jennifer is still calling people liars when SHE is lying about Jim Jones. She has been shown links (she keeps asking for links, but when they prove her wrong, she ignores them.) and still she LIES.

 

She wished that lexum was the one who attempted suicide, then tries to weasel out of it.

 

Jennifer is a lying weasel. But then again, we already knew that, didn't we?

HISTORY OF JIM JONES

 

If we want to understand The People's Temple, we must understand it's charismatic leader.
So let's take a trip back in memory and see what shaped this man who would become famous for all
the wrong reasons. James Warren Jones was born on May 13, 1931 in Lynn, Indiana, the only child
of James Thurmond Jones and Lynetta Jones. When he started going to grammar school, he was
like all other little children, getting an average of B. During the 3rd and 4th grade, he became a
"book worm", reading materials for 6th and 7th graders. At school, he learned how to attract
playmates and control them by entertaining while maintaining a hold on them. He learned to structure
the environment around him to suit himself.

When Jim Jones got to high school, there was no doubt he was college material. With his high IQ,
his grades were among the best in a class of about 40 and he always the top student when it came to
public speaking. After World War II, Jim became interested in the major wars and in men who
influenced history like Mahatma Gandhi, Joseph Stalin, Karl Marx and especially Adolf Hitler. What
intrigued him the most were the personalities of Stalin and Hitler; he respected the new order Stalin
wanted to implement and the Machiavellian and oral abilities of Hitler, although he did not endorse
his goals. Jim was at the same time preaching on the streets of Lynn but no one would listen to him,
so he brought his preaching to Richmond, an industrial town to the south. There was a good place
for his message of racial equality since Richmond was 1/5 black. He would do his preaching on the
north side of Richmond in a black residential area, at an intersection of 2 streets where a tavern
could be found on either side.

It was Sunday, June 12, 1949 when Jim Jones and Marceline Baldwin got married at the Baldwin
family home. Out of love and trust, Marceline would always be the one to submit during heated
discussions with her husband, especially when religion was the subject.

During the month of June in 1952, Jim accepted a position as a student pastor at the Somerset
Methodist Church in Indianapolis where he would become a reverend. Reverend Jim Jones wanted
to start his own congregation but it did not fare too well. So he started studying the best evangelical
preachers in the country and on that first night in Columbus, Indiana, after all the preparation, he
almost fell flat on his face but regained control of himself and he was a smaching success! His first
true public appearance was in 1953 in Detroit at a interdenominational missionary seminar and from
then on, his re****tion grew and continued growing. But tu buy an establishment, he needed money
and he tried almost anything, much as, for example, selling monkeys for 29$ each. In 1954, he
started renting a small building in Indianapolis at the corner of Hoyt and Randolph in a racially mixed
neighborhood. He called it Community Unity. He finally had his first congregation.........


HISTORY OF THE PEOPLE'S TEMPLE

 

On April 4, 1955, Jones and the members of his new congregation, which numbered at around
20, founded the Wings of Deliverance. This group was looking for an early expansion and the door
was left opened for other congregations as affiliates. The Wings of Deliverance had just gotten
started when it changed its name. With its interracial followers, his "healing powers" and the wide
spread Pentecostal use of the world temple, they called the group The People's Temple. With a
choir, a youth group, room for 700 people and Jone's re****tion for his healing ministry, it did not
take long for large crowds to come and fill the place up.

The People's Temple then founded social services all over the city which gave the new church a
chance to promote its liberal idea of a social gospel and to help reopen the eyes of the city and
possibly even more to the problem of poverty. In 1959, Jones set up an orphanage adoption fund to
closely mimic his own "rainbow family". Jim and his Marceline adopted children of different races
and culture as their own children. Another social service provided by The People's Temple was a
free restaurant and social service center in the Temple's basement. The restaurant opened its doors
on February 24, 1960 and it became a fats success, known to give out thousands of meals per
month to the homeless.

The week before Easter in 1959 was the time The People's Temple joined the Christian Church and
was now called People's Temple Christian Chruch Full Gospel and by 1960, the PTCCFG was
officially part of the Disciples of Christ. Now not only was Jone's temple part of a denomination but,
because of its restaurant, his congregation became a viable organization and could work with other
civic groups to help the condition of the poor.

But over the years of its existence, the members of the church experienced harassment and violent
threats. On more than one occasion, a swastika was painted on the wall of the Temple or a shot was
fired towards the building. With all this pressure from the community around him, Jones took it upon
himself to find a new place for his family and his congregation. In 1962, jones went on vacation and
checked out British Guyana on the northeast coast of South America as a site for a possible
pilgrimage. Jim and his wife then spent 2 years in Brazil helping to serve the local orphanages and
also spending time looking for possible land to acquire for a colony.

In 1964, the Reverend Jim Jones became officially ordained as a minister of the Disciples of Christ.
The connection would prove helpful in the long run but it provided little help to the Temple members
in their immediate situation. In that same year, Jones was out in California to see about possible
migration sites and found one in a region called Ukiah. When Jones brought the good news to his
followers, they started to sell everything they had so they could move to Ukiah. By July 15, 1965,
Jones and his followers had reached their destination and hoped that this was their promised land.

But by 1966, the group wasn't even established and it took another 2 years before the group had a
church building of their own. Ukiah was not a good "hunting ground" for new recruits since there was
almost no growth in numbers and the people who did join were family members and people from
California (by the year 1968, there were around 136 followers). In the end, the group moved to
Redwood Valley (about 8 miles north of Ukiah) where Jones and his family were living. Finally, the
church opened its doors on February 2, 1969 and over the years the church established a firm base
and also succeeded in attracting important people from the region of Ukiah to join the group.

In 1970, the Temple opened in San Francisco the San Francisco Temple on Geary Street and the
group grew like weeds in your lawn in the 1970's, reaching a maximum of 3000 members at one
time. In 1973, Jones and his staff started planning a second migration, in 1974, a crew went to
Guyana preparing land for the migration in 1977, amidst bad publicity and hostile media, reverend
Jim Jones and his followers migrated to Guyana in hope that this time, Guyana would be the
promised land.

Guyana may have been their last migration but it was not the promised land.........

 


THE THEOLOGY OF JIM JONES

 

As I have written in The History of Jim Jones, Jones became a student pastor at a Methodist
church in 1952. He started preaching racial equality and soon Blacks were coming into the church.
Jones was convinced that the Pentecostal church would be more open to his message because for
some reason of their interracial heritage. So he went to meet some Pentecostalist officials from
Kentucky and Tennessee, but the idea of racial equality was not officially accepted by these officials
and this created a confrontation that the Methodist church did not like and so, Jones and his church
were kicked out. Searching for some denomination to accept him and his group, he went to a
Seventh Day Baptist Church and it was there he started honing his "healing powers".

But with Jone's tenacious attitude, the Pentecostal church accepted his congregation. With this,
Jones transformed the Pentecostal theology in 2 ways so he could use it to his advantage. The first
was to use the millenial expectations of the second coming of Christ to proclaim some divinity in
himself and possibly in his members also. He would say that a person filled with the spirit would
answer to the law of God and was not subject to the laws of morality. His second use of the
Pentecostal theology was to use it to explain, prove and promote his famous communalist
conclusions. Jones saw himself as an outcast just like the poor and the Blacks in the United States
and therefore he would bring the subject of class struggle into his evangelical religion.

In the Pentecostal religion, there's a list of nine signs to prove you have the gift of the spirit: the word
of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning
spirits, diverse tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Jones claimed all nine but he never wanted
to prove his power of speaking in tongues; he concentrated on discerning, healing and prophesying.

When it came to his healing powers, Jones admitted deception was a big part of the scene. A part of
his staff would search out information on people who would be attending his church and with this
information he would deceive people with his so called "powers". Eventually he followed a legal
disclaimer and he would frequently say to a "healed" person that he or she had a spirit blessing but to
go and consult his or her doctor for confirmation. Another power of Jones was the power of
prophecy. Now whether or not his prophecies came true, his followers (or himslef) would explain an
intervention for the cause of their struggle or that the person in question did not live up to the
possibilities Jones had foreseen.

Later on, Jones separated from the Pentecostals because he would proclaim the Second Coming
himself saying that he was the perfect example of a human possessed with the spirit. He would say:
"I say I am your Savior but don't make me your creator." What Jones succeeded in doing was to
create a religious group with a zeal prevalent during the times of the primitive Christian era, and
incorporating the concerns of today's era: race, class and nuclear holocaust. He would focus his
follower's attention not on the future and on Heaven but on the present; he would convince them that
the situation they were experiencing would not always be like this but would change.

Jones had two trademarks when it came ti his messianic practices: the end justifies the means and a
"revivalistic embellishment of radical social critiques" (Gone from the Promised Land , p.27). He
would intertwine facts, half-truths and lies about race, class and the nuclear holocaust into a religious
cry for redemption.

 


INFLUENCE OF THE MASSIVE SUICIDE

 

The period following the suicide of the community at Jonestown, Guyana saw the foundations of
social associations dedicated to see that cults conform to existing laws and this was just the tip of the
iceberg. At the same time official governement bodies began reports and organized public hearings
on the danger of cults. The "revolutionary suicide" was not only used by social and government
bodies but also by other religious movements like the Children of God. The suicide was interpreted
by Berg as a major source of the growing repression towards all religious minorities: "It's all part of
the Devil's own conspiracyagaisnt the Lord and his people! They hounded those poor people
literally to death!... They've beaten, kidnapped, imprisoned, tortured and even killed us!" (MO
Letter 742, 1978. Emphasis Original).

Not only did the suicide have repercussions in North America but also all over the world! In France,
a crisis almost started but the government was quick on its feet and quickly stated to the public that
no organization comparable to The People's Temple existed in France. They added that "the
activities of sects are under constant surveillance by the relevant services...so that warnings can be
made of any attack on basic liberties and, if proven, crimes committed by their members or
leaders..." (Journal de Debats, Assemblee Nationale, Item 9389, Novemebr 30, 1978, Trans.
J.A.B.).

 


CONCLUSION

 

With the coming of the year 2000, religious groups seem to be popping up all over the place
just like a bag of popcorn and with this new surge of religious ideas, one must be carefull where he
or she will swim on this sea of thoughts. Although we must be careful of such groups, we must not
label them without getting more information on them because some of them could be "innocent" of
such chrages. In this web page, we have looked at the history of both a contemporary religious
group and it's leader in hope of finding something that we could use to help prevent such "accidents".
But can we use the criteria of The People's Temple on every other religious groups? And if we do,
can we do it without destroying the religious choice of the human population? Should we become a
"Bog Brother" when it comes to religious choices?

 

 

http://www.caic.org.au/bibleba...pocolyptic/jones.htm


Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Had to dig to find? LOLOLOL. Well I sure found it fast for someone that had to "dig".

___________________________________________________________________________
Well then, could you tell us the NAME of the website? Clicking on your link didn't tell us anything about the website, who they are, what they are about. No home page available. So, tell us, Jennifer, if it's such a rep u table site, why won't they identify themselves, and why won't you identify them?

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by lexum:

Don’t be so mean and hateful best I’m just trying to have a sensible conversation. What in hell is your problem anyhow? You always have your butt up over your shoulder .

    Lighten up

Mean and hateful? How so? Because I ask you a simple question? If you can't answer, and if you can't provide links for your claims just say so. And while you're at it, show me my "mean and hateful" post. Funny how you and a few others call it mean and hateful when someone asks you a question you can't answer.

I just don't understand how so many people could find so many of your posts mean and hateful. You seem so full of love and understanding in your posts.

Gingee, do you think I care what someone like ono, buffalo aka lexum aka magpie( and about 10 other names that he's been banned under) think about me? Do you honestly think I care what you think? Come on, get real. I'm an atheist, the christians posting here hate atheists(and each other and anyone that doesn't believe like they do). Why would I suck up to you guys when you'd stab me in the back so fast it would make my head spin? Seriously. 

Originally Posted by O No!:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Had to dig to find? LOLOLOL. Well I sure found it fast for someone that had to "dig".

___________________________________________________________________________
Well then, could you tell us the NAME of the website? Clicking on your link didn't tell us anything about the website, who they are, what they are about. No home page available. So, tell us, Jennifer, if it's such a rep u table site, why won't they identify themselves, and why won't you identify them?

 

================

there is a disclaimer at the bottom. i really wouldnt worry about any of bestlying's sources. these atheist quote dawkins FCOL.

Originally Posted by Gingee:

I just don't understand how so many people could find so many of your posts mean and hateful. You seem so full of love and understanding in your posts.

______________________________________

And how are we supposed to see your post? Do we see/hear the proper spirit or attitude for a Christian?

As Matthew 15:18 says, “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.”  Your speech shows what is in your heart.

Now, would you like to give me Hell again for quoting scripture?

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Gingee:

I just don't understand how so many people could find so many of your posts mean and hateful. You seem so full of love and understanding in your posts.

______________________________________

And how are we supposed to see your post? Do we see/hear the proper spirit or attitude for a Christian?

As Matthew 15:18 says, “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.”  Your speech shows what is in your heart.

Now, would you like to give me Hell again for quoting scripture?

___________________________________________________________________________

I keep wondering why you hold Christians to a higher standard than atheists. What exactly IS a "proper spirit or attitude for a Christian", and more importantly, how does it differ from a proper spirit or attitude for an atheist? Are you saying that atheists get a pass? A Christian should show a proper attitude, but an atheist doesn't have to? Are you saying that because a person is Christian they have no right to get angry sometimes? As far as I know, we are ALL still human.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

 Are you saying that because a person is Christian they have no right to get angry sometimes? 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Sometimes? I've never seen you when you weren't angry. You really need some help with that. I bet your blood pressure is off the charts.

____________________________________________________________________________

No, Jennifer, I'm not always angry, just when I am dealing with liars such as yourself.

 

Ono, you are only angry at me because I don't like you and I don't have a problem telling you that. I honestly think something is wrong with you because of the way you go off the rails at me because I  won't suck up to you. You've been "talked to" a lot worse than I ever talked to you, but you don't take them on and we both know why. I don't start with you, you start with me. IF you want to keep reading my posts and putting yourself in that agitated state have at it. You don't bother me at all. I think you're a lonely person with no family or friends in "real" life, and this forum is all you have. That's made you mad at the world.  Add to that you're missing all your attack buddies, you know, the ones that got banned, and now you're having to do your own dirty work. I wish you could know how little you mean to me, and now I'm almost beginning to pity you. It's almost sad to watch.

Originally Posted by O No!:
I keep wondering why you hold Christians to a higher standard than atheists. What exactly IS a "proper spirit or attitude for a Christian", and more importantly, how does it differ from a proper spirit or attitude for an atheist? Are you saying that atheists get a pass? A Christian should show a proper attitude, but an atheist doesn't have to? Are you saying that because a person is Christian they have no right to get angry sometimes? As far as I know, we are ALL still human.

__________________________

Of course, I'm not saying a Christian has no right to get angry. As many conversations as you & I have had, you should know me better than that. 

 

Atheist don't believe in God. In their eyes, they have nothing to lose. A Christian supposedly has a lot to lose if they don't follow the rules set up by God. Unless, like Bill, they believe in OSAS. But, even those will find out one day that they do indeed have a lot to lose.

 

My Daddy used to say that a Christian should never make another stumble, but always set an example.

 

The real Christian is found in a person's speech. The words they use & the content of their conversation can cause others to think badly or highly of them. I believe that in order for a Christian to rise up to a level of respectability they should try to conquer the evil of the tongue & put it to death.

Proverbs 18:21 says to "Speak edification and not destruction".  I've said before that words are powerful. They can either encourage or devastate a person. That is why some words stick in my mind long after the conversation has ended.

 

The Bible mentions "to put the tongue to death we need to change the Heart". Have you ever heard "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks"? That is a strong statement & it's true.

James 1:19 says “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath”.

 

If a heart is filled with bitterness, your speech will show that bitterness. (your/you, as people in general) If your heart is filled with criticisms, your speech will naturally be critical. If your heart is filled with rejection,  your speech will reflect that sense of rejection.
To conquer the evil of the tongue, you need to have a change of heart. Have you ever seen anyone that  will criticize everything & everyone? I have & those people are not fun to be around.

 

I have a Christian friend that, if she feels herself getting angry, will walk away & go off alone & pray. No matter where she is, she does that & I've always admired her ability to control her tongue.

 

Gingee has never had one kind word for me. Out of his/her mouth, flows hatred. He/she has judged me, just as Bill has, & has me in Hell as soon as I take my last breath. I most likely will go to Hell, but it's not his/her call to make. But I, in turn, have never heard one thing about her/him to indicate that he/she is a Christian.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by lexum:

I figger you have some mom and pop non tech business up there in that one horse town.

You live in the Underwood-Petersville area and dare to call another city a one horse town? Your town doesn't even have one horse, and I doubt you even have a goat. You figger do you? Well figgering don't cost you nuttin old man. Just don't burn up too many of those few brain cells you have left while you're doing all that figgering.

Originally Posted by lexum:

i'll have you know Petersville is the center of the universe. We don't let just anybody live here.

and i'll have you know we keep our brain cells excercised well. you smoke i can tell. how many packs a day? four or five?

 

I'm sure the folks in your area are "special". As for smoking, I have better things to do with my money than light it on fire, and I think too much of my and my family's health to suck smoke into my lungs and then blow it out onto them. 

It may be true that Jim Jones was in fact an atheist. I don't think that matters so much in this discussion. His followers were religious. He used religion and religious practices to snare his victims. He was a megalomaniac. The way he was able to get these people to kill themselves and their children is what is so scary about religion. It can be used against the gullible in horrific ways.

 

Could an atheist use religion to do bad things? Yes. I think it happens all the time. I would bet that most religious leaders don't really believe what they preach. However they have figured out how to get what they want by using the brainwashing techneques of religion and the power of using superstition and delusion to convince people to follow them.

 

So could this happen to a Humanist group? No. You have to have followers that are able to be manipulated by religious belief. Humanist and atheist would not fall for such things. We are skeptical and demand proof. We are free thinkers and would not be suceptible to the kind of mass delusion that religious people are.

 

So yes Jim Jones could have been an atheist. His followers however believed he was the son of God and that they were going on to their reward. They believed he could heal them with powers given to him by God.

 

There are bad atheist and bad theist. There are good atheist and good theist. Sometimes bad atheist can use their knowledge of just how gullible humans can be when it comes to the supernatural and superstitious beliefs against them.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Ono, you are only angry at me because I don't like you and I don't have a problem telling you that. I honestly think something is wrong with you because of the way you go off the rails at me because I  won't suck up to you. You've been "talked to" a lot worse than I ever talked to you, but you don't take them on and we both know why. I don't start with you, you start with me. IF you want to keep reading my posts and putting yourself in that agitated state have at it. You don't bother me at all. I think you're a lonely person with no family or friends in "real" life, and this forum is all you have. That's made you mad at the world.  Add to that you're missing all your attack buddies, you know, the ones that got banned, and now you're having to do your own dirty work. I wish you could know how little you mean to me, and now I'm almost beginning to pity you. It's almost sad to watch.

___________________________________________________________________________

Actually Jennifer, I'm GLAD you don't like me. I would be certain there was something majorly wrong with me if someone like you liked me.

 

So, who is it who talked to me worse than you? And you say I don't take them on and we both know why? Let me in on who it is and what your reason is because I have no idea. The only other person I had a strong dislike for was Unob, and that was for the same reason I can't stomach you - because I despise liars, both Unob and you.

 

It's funny that you think I don't have any friends or family. I post on this forum while I am at work. Then I go home to real life. I've noticed that YOU post here at all hours of the day and night. Must be because you care so much about your husband and kids, huh? You figure the more time you spend away from them and on the computer, the longer they might like you? I bet they ENCOURAGE you to go play on the computer so they can enjoy their time without you.

 

Originally Posted by O No!:

I've noticed that YOU post here at all hours of the day and night. Must be because you care so much about your husband and kids, huh? You figure the more time you spend away from them and on the computer, the longer they might like you? I bet they ENCOURAGE you to go play on the computer so they can enjoy their time without you.

 _______________________________

Oops, I stay on the computer a lot too.

1. because I enjoy it. 2. because it's where my business is. 3. because I have family/friends out of state & we chat by way of computer.

If my Grandbabies come in, I get off. If my husband gets off his computer & wants to go somewhere/do something, I get off too. We each believe we shouldn't have to keep the other entertained.

 

Ono you don't see me on here past a normal "bedtime" unless I'm getting caught up on work. We were closed for 4 and 1/2 days for thanksgiving so I got a little behind on orders. Yes, I'm here late sometimes if it is any of your business.  We do run a business after all, and I do have a website to maintain, and at times I have to do that at night. Now the "all hours of the night" is one of your lies. The latest may be around 12 IF I am working on our website, and that would be on the weekend.  As far as days, I work at the computer all day. By the way, I am up every morning at 5:30 a.m. every day of the week.

 My husband is sitting about 10 feet from me, my kids, gasp, have a life and are old enough that they don't sit up under their parents. Now then ono, tell me why it's been YOU that has constantly begged me to "call a truce" when it's been YOU that runs around making sure you post on every thread I make trying to start an argument. If you don't start with me I never have anything to "say" to you. I think something is very wrong with you, but like I said, if you want to keep agitating yourself it's your right. No skin off my nose at all. You're all over the place in the way you post, "jennifer you're intelligent why can't we just blah blah blah", then you turn right around and post, "you're so ignorant and bitter and blah blah blah".  Sheesh lady, get some help.

No Jennifer, I can't recall ever saying you are ignorant. I have told you it is obvious that you are intelligent because it's true.

 

If you recall, I tried to call a truce with you for the sake of our mutual friend Semi. And not only did you refuse to answer that thread, but you disappeared from the forum for a couple of days and then came back with a different name. I ASSUMED it was because you didn't want to look bad in Semi's eyes by refusing, so for a minute there you decided to disappear and become someone else. That was my ASSUMPTION, but I never brought that up because I wasn't sure.

 

But you kept upwith the "hate speech", so I decided, seeing it is obvious that you will never even try to civil to someone you don't like, to just start firing back. I actually DON'T follow all of your posts, but when I see something you have twisted, lied about, or just been unusually nasty about (even for YOU), I will jump on it, just like I would anyone else. It just happens that Unob, the champion of all liars is gone, and you are the only one left who is so blatantly dishonest and mean.

 

 

Originally Posted by O No!:

No Jennifer, I can't recall ever saying you are ignorant. I have told you it is obvious that you are intelligent because it's true.

 

If you recall, I tried to call a truce with you for the sake of our mutual friend Semi. And not only did you refuse to answer that thread, but you disappeared from the forum for a couple of days and then came back with a different name. I ASSUMED it was because you didn't want to look bad in Semi's eyes by refusing, so for a minute there you decided to disappear and become someone else. That was my ASSUMPTION, but I never brought that up because I wasn't sure.

 

But you kept upwith the "hate speech", so I decided, seeing it is obvious that you will never even try to civil to someone you don't like, to just start firing back. I actually DON'T follow all of your posts, but when I see something you have twisted, lied about, or just been unusually nasty about (even for YOU), I will jump on it, just like I would anyone else. It just happens that Unob, the champion of all liars is gone, and you are the only one left who is so blatantly dishonest and mean.

 

 

-------------------------------------------

i don't read that .  she's average at best. She don't comprehend.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×