Suicide and The Humanists among us

Originally Posted by lexum:

I'm concerned about a group of people selling the idea of suicide as does the Humanist group.

 SEVENTH: To enhance freedom and dignity the individual must experience a full range of civil liberties in all societies. This includes freedom of speech and the press, political democracy, the legal right of opposition to governmental policies, fair judicial process, religious liberty, freedom of association, and artistic, scientific, and cultural freedom. It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. We oppose the increasing invasion of privacy, by whatever means, in both totalitarian and democratic societies. We would sa***uard, extend, and implement the principles of human freedom evolved from the Magna Carta to the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.[HUMANIST MANIFESTO II]

we have several members on this forum who are members of the Humanist group of The Shoals.

 

   a carful study so far of this group and their attitudes point to a Jim Jones type mentality and they do consider thems to be a religious Humanist group.

 

     these people do have children , the metric being now.

 

i'm not atall comfortable with young innocent children being exposed to this mentality.

 

      adot, since you are involved with this group can you give concerned citizens assurance that the humanist are not exposing minors to suicide as an accepted alternative?

 

On another thread Infomercial asks this question:

 

"Don't you think it's the humanists' business what they teach their kids. Suicide isn't murder."

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    Question:  Do you agree that teaching children the option of suicide?

Original Post

Best I’m saying: a careful study in this instance being mine and to include a careful study by anyone can see the similarities to a Jim Jones mentality. Read the Humanist Manifesto for yourself. The followers are  pre-occupied with self destruction fueled by desperation and paranoia.

Religion and religious people appear as a boogie man behind every shadow.

       The terminology of the three manifestos are obviously designed to just skirt  around the norms of society luring the unsuspecting candidate into a prison of mind control.

       Once an idea that society on the outside of this cult is seen as an uninformed hoard, society becomes the enemy that cannot be conquered and in protest, the mentality creeps in that the logical thing to do is remove themselves from the dilemma by suicide.

          Humanism has been around for a long time waiting for the accident to happen. The reward for them , crazy as it may seem is: society must bear the guilt by being left around to tell how it happened.

(June 3, 2010, Washington D.C.)  Today, leadership at the American Humanist Association mourned the death of Dr. Jack Kevorkian, a physician, humanitarian, and brazen advocate for end-of-life choice. Dr. Kevorkian was given the Humanist Hero Award by the American Humanist Association in 1994. The American Humanist Association became one of the first national organizations to support end of life choices in a 1974 statement.

“Dr. Kevorkian led the charge for the right of those who wanted the freedom to end their suffering,” said Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association. “His unwavering determination in the face of protest, and even legal repercussions, was a testament to his strong conviction and compassion.”

Dr. Kevorkian spent much his career advocating for the legalization of euthanasia. With a strong sense of ethics, Kevorkian refused 97 percent of assisted suicide requests received, reserving his services for the terminally ill and suffering.http://www.americanhumanist.or...vorkian-advocate-for

 

I fail to see how any rational person cannot see Kovorkian as fringe.

 

          "suffering" certainly is a description of the delimma the atheist/humanist claim as a result of Christianity and religion as a whole. The humanist/atheist have long-suffered since the 40's. It remains to be seen when and what will trigger a headlong rush into the sea.

 

       i would suggest that if you are being caught up in this Humanist movement to distance yourself from it and it's members.

Best I know of no Christian group that condones suicide .

The Humanist teach suicide as a rational alternative to “suffering” which can include physical, mental or imagined.

   I,‘m not saying you are a humanist and I hope you have sense enough not to teach children that suicide is an alternative to include an escape from bullying, breakups etc……what you may see as an adult as non-rational is not always seen that way by children.

Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey buff, what do you consider "pulling the plug" on a loved one to be?? Is that murder or assisted suicide? 

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neither one

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What is it then? It means the family is causing a death, so what do you call it?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by lexum:

Best I know of no Christian group that condones suicide .

The Humanist teach suicide as a rational alternative to “suffering” which can include physical, mental or imagined.

   I,‘m not saying you are a humanist and I hope you have sense enough not to teach children that suicide is an alternative to include an escape from bullying, breakups etc……what you may see as an adult as non-rational is not always seen that way by children.

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Buff, look at the polls. Not even you can claim that all the people polled are humanists. Jim Jones condoned suicide and that was a christian group. And I ask again, what do christians call "pulling the plug"?

I'm of a more "liberal" denomination of churches. You don't have to be a humanist to support euthanasia.  I watched the wife of a friend die recently. I was a long, agonizing, undignified death for someone who was so full of life up until a few months ago.  She stood absolutely no chance of survival. Her husband and children had to endure her pain while she wasted away. Why in the world would anyone pretend to judge this family if they were able to make a choice to end her suffering? 

Best , the family is not causing a death. You ask me was pulling the plug murder or assisted suicide.

I say neither one. Teaching children that suicide is an alternative to “suffering” is insane.

It is a part of this cult teaching. Best if you are being sucked into this humanist madness you need to talk atheists that are not sucked in by humanism. There are normal atheist out there but not on this forum.

I have an atheist friend and I can tell you he ain’t going to join a humanist group any sooner than he will join some church.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Best , the family is not causing a death. You ask me was pulling the plug murder or assisted suicide.

I say neither one. Teaching children that suicide is an alternative to “suffering” is insane.

It is a part of this cult teaching. Best if you are being sucked into this humanist madness you need to talk atheists that are not sucked in by humanism. There are normal atheist out there but not on this forum.

I have an atheist friend and I can tell you he ain’t going to join a humanist group any sooner than he will join some church.

 

 

Stop being evasive and answer the question. What is the family doing when they "pull the plug" and cause the death of their loved one? I'm not being "sucked into" anything. You have no idea how I personally feel about the subject. You made a claim so I'm asking you how "assisted suicide" and "pulling the plug" are different and apparently you're stuck. Also you won't address the many christians that think assisted suicide is OK.  You can't provide a link to a study equating humanists to jim jones. I'm a "normal" atheist. There are very few normal christians on this forum and you aren't among them. You come across as deranged. You sound like bill when you claim you have an atheist friend. Neither of you would have an atheist for a friend and I can't imagine an atheist that would want to be a friend to either of you and put up with the abuse you'd heap on them on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Don’t be so mean and hateful best I’m just trying to have a sensible conversation. What in hell is your problem anyhow? You always have your butt up over your shoulder .

    Lighten up

Mean and hateful? How so? Because I ask you a simple question? If you can't answer, and if you can't provide links for your claims just say so. And while you're at it, show me my "mean and hateful" post. Funny how you and a few others call it mean and hateful when someone asks you a question you can't answer.

Originally Posted by lexum:

Frank, there is no line that is safe when drawn by passion of the maverick. They are always a faction and thank God the framers of our constitution neutered them with the three branches of our Federal Government.

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I have no idea what that means.

Frank, it means that a small group of pizzed off people cannot  make decisions that effect everyone else [factions]

       A single county government cannot make decisions to the disruption of the whole state.

A single state cannot decide as a  ruler over the union.

   The Federal government allows for a single vote by the citizenry to elect candidates.  Based on the outcome of the vote the electoral college decides on the voters behalf if they have had sense enough to vote to begin with..

     Then it’s all down hill from there. Congress makes your decisions for you. It is not based on a chicken in every pot but to reward the rich who deserve it to begin with.

     After all what are factions and the average Joe going to do with the money if they get their hands on it?

They buy ciggrats, beer and nerds.

   

     Common folk don’t deserve anything if they did they would become the best at something, join a union charge the wealthy for their service until they puke and then charge them for puking. Then there is no money to be stolen by CEOs and white collar thieves because the skilled worker is buying Corvettes and building new houses the economy is booming and everyone has a smile on their face you couldn’t get off with a side grinder. That is the way to keep track of the money. It’s in yo pocket. The skilled worker or service person.

1. best i don't consider it murder.
 
2. I don't consider it assisted suicide.
answer to earlier question:
People’s Temple Christian Church, Jim Jones, Jonestown, Guyana: Jones, influenced by Unitarian Humanism, Father Divine, and Marxism, founded his church in 1977. He later claimed at various times to be God, Buddha, and Lenin. In 1978 at Jones’ command, 914 people (including Jones) committed suicide or were murdered. The group is now defunct.

Destructive cults

The People's Temple, led by
James Warren (Jim) Jones

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Background of the Peoples Temple:

This was a Christian destructive, doomsday cult founded and led by James Warren Jones (1931-1978). Jim Jones held degrees from Indiana University and Butler University. He was not a Fundamentalist pastor as many reports in the media and the anti-cult movement claim. He belonged to a mainline Christian denomination, having been ordained in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. (At the time of his ordination, the DoC allowed a local congregation to select and ordain a minister on their own. However, ordinations conducted without denominational endorsement were not considered valid within the rest of the church.)  

Oh, sorry, I call it no one else’s business but have made it their business to make judgment on behalf of another person. My dear friend was in a coma over a  year ago for weeks and kept alive by science, the family was called in to make the decision to unplug her. We were all notified . The doctor said lets wait one more day. This summer I went to her house picked her up , took her to The Sweetwater Mansion, dressed her in a long dress with hoop-skirt , silk hat with ribbons and a silk fan in her hand and sat with her on the lawn and heard her say “I’ve always wanted to do this” she is a Gone With The Wind fan. She’s still living.

    I hope I never have to make that decision for anyone but I would not criticize anyone that did.

You may call it no one else's business but still, is it assisted suicide or murder? It ends in the death of the person so what do you call it buff? Come on, you can do better than that. Why would the doctor call in the family only to tell them to "wait one more day"? Sounds odd to me. So what is it buff, murder or assisted suicide?

Originally Posted by lexum:

Wul best it’s certainly not suicide because the person dying is not making the decision.

In my opinion it’s not murder for sure but if you think it’s murder you are entitled to that belief.

 

 

I haven't given you my opinion. I'm asking you which it is. Apparently you think it's not suicide or murder if it's a "christian" deciding. The person dying could very well have made the decision. People let their wishes be known all the time. So if they're dying and the family knows they want the plug pulled they are in effect, using your logic, assisting suicide. If the doctor advises they "pull the plug" then again using your logic, it's murder. Both things you don't seem to have a problem with as long as it's christians doing it.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by lexum:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Hey buff, what do you consider "pulling the plug" on a loved one to be?? Is that murder or assisted suicide? 

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neither one

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What is it then? It means the family is causing a death, so what do you call it?

 

Best, I'm going to assume you're too kind to ask this question except in these circumstances when you want to argue with lexum, or whomever he may call himself today. Yes, we have the power to keep alive patients that would have died 100 years ago,,,or even 50 years ago. Is that what you want for yourself, a prolonged life of agony?

 

One story that garnered much news a few years ago was Joe DiMaggio. "He came home from the hosptial." Yes, he did, He couldn't walk. He could barely move. He couldn't eat. He was fed via a gastrostomy. He had round the clock nursing care. In the end, he still died a few months later.

 

Do you want to be kept alive by artificial means? To be fed via a g-tube after you're no longer able to move or swallow? I don't.

 

Pulling he plug is not murder when the patient is brain dead or will be dead within a matter of days. That's simple humanity.

Oh so it was all about critchuns huh?

My intention was to point out the insane idea that humanists teach suicide as an alternative ideal to children who might see a break-up or teen pregnancy as a reason to kill themselves,.

I never intended it to go to the unplug argument. But that’s ok. We’ll argue it too.

 It also includes a recognition of an individual's right to die with dignity, euthanasia, and the right to suicide. 

 

 

Now where is all the other stuff you mentioned below buff? It's not in your copy/paste post so where is it?

 

 

My intention was to point out the insane idea that humanists teach suicide as an alternative ideal to children who might see a break-up or teen pregnancy as a reason to kill themselves,

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