I don't really have anything to say about this sad story. Just lamenting the irony of it all.
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quote:Originally posted by Skeptik:
I don't really have anything to say about this sad story. Just lamenting the irony of it all.
It's all just part of god's really big plan that is too great for your simple little mind to comprehend.
quote:Originally posted by fineazell1:
It's all just part of god's really big plan that is too great for your simple little mind to comprehend.
God's great plan? Everytime something tragic happens, folks moan endlessly about "God's Great Plan". Folks who believe as Skep believes takes this as proof of God's arbitrary, capricious, and callous nature. Saying that is saying that God drove this woman to murder this little girl...whispered instructions in her ear, at night, perhaps in a dream. If God directs all the actions of all people, then He conspired in her murder.
Perhaps this WASN'T part of God's Great Plan. Perhaps it was the isolated action of a sick individual who, for her own reasons, wanted this child dead. Perhaps she had an attack of frothing fundamentalism and decided the best way to protect this little girl from the evils of the world was to send her to heaven straightaway.
Would God do that? If that were the case, why wouldn't God send someone to murder ALL innocent children, just to populate the halls of heaven, and protect them from sin. Right. Protect them by murdering them.
God probably is saddened and will open His arms for her. God may even use this tragedy for good...to drive a change someplace, like Polly Klaas's case did. Or the Amber alerts. Or what John Walsh does. Who knows. But part of God's plan? Not even close.
Couldn`t agree more Zipp.
Skep,
In your own words could you relate the story to something save sad since I’m unaware?
I'm anxious.
In your own words could you relate the story to something save sad since I’m unaware?
I'm anxious.
I normally don't post over here but this topic caught my eye. I just wanted to say to zip that you made an EXCELLENT post!
I think what Skep was getting at, is that religion does not make us better persons.
Look what it did for Osama bin Laden.
As for god's plan, what fools we mortals be when we announce that we know, in any detail whatever, his plans.
We are far from establishing that there is a god, much less his intimate plans for each of us.
DF
Look what it did for Osama bin Laden.
As for god's plan, what fools we mortals be when we announce that we know, in any detail whatever, his plans.
We are far from establishing that there is a god, much less his intimate plans for each of us.
DF
Ram...
A female Sunday School teacher here has been charged in the rape and murder of an 8-year old girl. She stuffed her body into a suitcase and dumped it into a canal.
Link
A female Sunday School teacher here has been charged in the rape and murder of an 8-year old girl. She stuffed her body into a suitcase and dumped it into a canal.
Link
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
God's great plan? Everytime something tragic happens, folks moan endlessly about "God's Great Plan". Folks who believe as Skep believes takes this as proof of God's arbitrary, capricious, and callous nature. Saying that is saying that God drove this woman to murder this little girl...whispered instructions in her ear, at night, perhaps in a dream. If God directs all the actions of all people, then He conspired in her murder.
Perhaps this WASN'T part of God's Great Plan. Perhaps it was the isolated action of a sick individual who, for her own reasons, wanted this child dead. Perhaps she had an attack of frothing fundamentalism and decided the best way to protect this little girl from the evils of the world was to send her to heaven straightaway.
Would God do that? If that were the case, why wouldn't God send someone to murder ALL innocent children, just to populate the halls of heaven, and protect them from sin. Right. Protect them by murdering them.
God probably is saddened and will open His arms for her. God may even use this tragedy for good...to drive a change someplace, like Polly Klaas's case did. Or the Amber alerts. Or what John Walsh does. Who knows. But part of God's plan? Not even close.
So what you are saying is...
god DOESN'T have a plan for EVERYONE?
So in your opinion, DOES god know everything that will ever happen?
What I'm saying:
"god DOESN'T have a plan for EVERYONE?"
....I don't know.
"...DOES god know everything that will ever happen?"
....I don't know.
I think your question revolves around one of the most active debating points in Christian apologetics: Is God a god of predetermination, or does He allow free will?
At my level of understanding, let's assume these are mutually exclusive. I'll toss the question back to you.
"god DOESN'T have a plan for EVERYONE?"
....I don't know.
"...DOES god know everything that will ever happen?"
....I don't know.
I think your question revolves around one of the most active debating points in Christian apologetics: Is God a god of predetermination, or does He allow free will?
At my level of understanding, let's assume these are mutually exclusive. I'll toss the question back to you.
I think you took that a step too far, Deep. Religion did not make HER a better person. You have no way of knowing if that's the case for everyone. I don't know if it makes anyone else a better person either as I don't have much appreciation for it as it is usually defined.
A relationship with Christ, however, can make us better persons. Also, following the teachings of Christ can make us better persons.
A relationship with Christ, however, can make us better persons. Also, following the teachings of Christ can make us better persons.
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Ram...
A female Sunday School teacher here has been charged in the rape and murder of an 8-year old girl. She stuffed her body into a suitcase and dumped it into a canal.
Link
Good God. I think it's safe to assume that she didn't show up at that church to worship God in the first place. I can't even put into words what I'd like to say and I sure as heck can't put it nicely. I'm out.
The suspect is the church pastor's daughter.
And she has a five-year old daughter herself. It's incomprehensible.
And she has a five-year old daughter herself. It's incomprehensible.
Actually, to have good you must have bad -- the world can't be one-sided -- it must be balanced. So to have God -- I accept that there is a Devil and that evil is in the world as well. Like I have said before, if you read "This Present Darkness" by Frank Peretti -- it puts a whole new perspective on people and what affects them and how the power of God as well as the power of evil works behind the scenes in this world.
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
At my level of understanding, let's assume these are mutually exclusive. I'll toss the question back to you.
It makes more sense and explains more clearly that there is NO god.
quote:Originally posted by DeepFat:
I think what Skep was getting at, is that religion does not make us better persons.
Look what it did for Osama bin Laden.
As for god's plan, what fools we mortals be when we announce that we know, in any detail whatever, his plans.
We are far from establishing that there is a god, much less his intimate plans for each of us.
DF
Deep, no apologies necessary.
I think what Skep is getting at is the bottom of his barrel of rationalizations.
I’ll look at this more closely when I have the time.
In the meantime keep him warm have him drink liquids and rest.
Illogical posts are sometimes a sign of a more serious problem
quote:Originally posted by fineazell1:
It makes more sense and explains more clearly that there is NO god.
Free will and random chance, then. No moral absolutes; no consistent description of "civilized values". No ability in anyone to perform a selfless act.
The child was murdered because random probability brought her, her killer, and a confluence of factors together at a time, place, and circumstances that resulted in her killer making the choice to take her life.
Is this more or less correct, given the "no God" criterion? I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with you; I'm trying to definitize the process here.
I make no apologies and religion does not make us better persons.
Joy, you are a sweetheart, and without religion, you would still be a sweetheart. We humans are all capable of good and evil, luckily, most of us here in America are good. Most people in atheist Sweden are good.
One must ask if religion is the cause or effect of good people. Atheism, too.
DF
Joy, you are a sweetheart, and without religion, you would still be a sweetheart. We humans are all capable of good and evil, luckily, most of us here in America are good. Most people in atheist Sweden are good.
One must ask if religion is the cause or effect of good people. Atheism, too.
DF
Thank you, but I'm certain you just haven't seen me on my bad days. 
Without religious ritual, possibly no change, but without a 'relationship' with God, I wouldn't be here at all. That's just the truth of my life, but I cannot show you that, just tell you.
I just think that people who are insane and violent are insane. Any thoughts for or against religion for them would be from an insane place, twisted, a reflection of their insanity rather than a certain religion, atheism, etc. JMHO
Without religious ritual, possibly no change, but without a 'relationship' with God, I wouldn't be here at all. That's just the truth of my life, but I cannot show you that, just tell you.
I just think that people who are insane and violent are insane. Any thoughts for or against religion for them would be from an insane place, twisted, a reflection of their insanity rather than a certain religion, atheism, etc. JMHO
All groups have people who claim association with them yet are not shining examples of accurate representatives of that specific group. It's no more valid to judge an entire Church or Religion based upon those who claim association with them as it is to do the same to Agnostics or Atheist with people like Manson (and I don't really know Manson's affiliation or beliefs if he has any). My point is that there are bad folks everywhere and the most shocking thing about this murder wasn't that the lady was a sunday school teacher but that she was a lady (female).
Manson is far from an atheist. He got his cult to follow him by telling them he was Jesus returned. He probably believed it.
DF
DF
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Free will and random chance, then. No moral absolutes; no consistent description of "civilized values". No ability in anyone to perform a selfless act.
I disagree - without god, any act of kindness is selfless. There is no divine reward for being good.
quote:Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
The child was murdered because random probability brought her, her killer, and a confluence of factors together at a time, place, and circumstances that resulted in her killer making the choice to take her life.
Is this more or less correct, given the "no God" criterion? I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with you; I'm trying to definitize the process here.
Basically this is how I feel about ALL deaths. Circumstances and chain of events - sometimes personal choices of others, sometimes personal choices of the dead.
Things just happen. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. There is no rhyme or reason to it. It just happens.
There are bad people in this world that do bad things. We can hope and try to take measures to protect ourselves from those bad people, but as history has shown, praying to "god" is as pointless as burying your head in the sand.
quote:Originally posted by gbrk:
...and the most shocking thing about this murder wasn't that the lady was a sunday school teacher but that she was a lady (female).
I would have to say the most shocking thing about this is that a CHILD was murdered.
I've said a thousand times, if "god" would use all of this power and ability to at least protect children from evil that would be enough for any person to believe.
But as I stated above, there is no god protecting ANYBODY - including children - and a god that won't/can't protect the most innocent of humans is no god at all.
quote:I think it's safe to assume that she didn't show up at that church to worship God in the first place.
I don't think that is a safe assumption at all, Joy. For all we know, she made a fervent prayer just before taking the life of the child.
No one has ever done evil because they were thinking too rationally, you know.
I'd answer that how I answered above, Skep and I think(?) I agree with you (that was like pulling teeth...haha).
I think people who are insane and violent are insane and violent. Any thoughts for or against religion for them would be from an insane or violent mind, twisted, a reflection of their insanity and violent nature rather than a certain religion, atheism, etc.
I think people who are insane and violent are insane and violent. Any thoughts for or against religion for them would be from an insane or violent mind, twisted, a reflection of their insanity and violent nature rather than a certain religion, atheism, etc.
What about a devil?
What do you mean, 8I?
If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. ~~~Voltaire