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swastika in downtown florence?

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JenniferJenniferOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by canade:
I know Chip, he's not a Nazi. Don't know what's up with that.
It could be that he's trying to help remove the stigma of the swastika. It got it's bad rep because of the Nazi's.
*****************************************


The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?

The Oldest Known Symbol

The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.

During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

•China - wan
•England - fylfot
•Germany - Hakenkreuz
•Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
•India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika.
The Original Meaning

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.
LavergneLavergneSmall Talker
quote:
Originally posted by newshound62:
anybody else noticed the swastika flag hanging in the doorway of guns n such on court street?

looks real nice for folks visiting downtown.

what the #@&%?


I would hope that most folks visiting downtown Florence are smart enough to recognize war memorabilia when they see it. It's in a gun store and pawn place so my guess is it's for sale. You have any idea how rare war memorabilia is and how much that stuff goes for on ebay?

My grandfather served for 6 years in WWII. Front lines. Germany. He saw some rough stuff that he never wanted to talk about and when I learned the details of how he came home and brought things home with him that had swastikas, I was smart enough to know that he was no Nazi. That was war, and he fought in it, and he brought those swastikas home because he understood the symbolism of doing so. He knew what it meant to him and to his platoon. Everyone else with any sense did, too.

The good news is that most people in Florence are smarter than you are, newshound, and they appreciate what my grandfather and his fellow soldiers did to protect our freedoms and our lives, and those of others across the world. I treasure the war relics that my grandfather brought home because I know what they represent. He raised a family, worked, and retired in Florence, and it was his home, and I know if he were alive he would be glad to hear there is yet another merchant in this city who appreciates the meaning that those relics held for him and the other soldiers who fought valiantly to bring home those banners.

I'd guess you're a spring chicken. Sad that kids your age don't understand the importance of those flags and the meaning they held and hold for the people who fought to bring them home. Do you realize many of those people brought those banners home to families that had grown up in their absence? Do you get the sacrifice that our soldiers made? The few relics left of WWII are not only worth preserving, but they are invaluable. I hope that the banner he has gets in to the hands of other good people who are far wiser and much more respectful than yourself.
KP Kenny PowersPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Lavergne:
quote:
Originally posted by newshound62:
anybody else noticed the swastika flag hanging in the doorway of guns n such on court street?

looks real nice for folks visiting downtown.

what the #@&%?


I would hope that most folks visiting downtown Florence are smart enough to recognize war memorabilia when they see it. It's in a gun store and pawn place so my guess is it's for sale. You have any idea how rare war memorabilia is and how much that stuff goes for on ebay?

My grandfather served for 6 years in WWII. Front lines. Germany. He saw some rough stuff that he never wanted to talk about and when I learned the details of how he came home and brought things home with him that had swastikas, I was smart enough to know that he was no Nazi. That was war, and he fought in it, and he brought those swastikas home because he understood the symbolism of doing so. He knew what it meant to him and to his platoon. Everyone else with any sense did, too.

The good news is that most people in Florence are smarter than you are, newshound, and they appreciate what my grandfather and his fellow soldiers did to protect our freedoms and our lives, and those of others across the world. I treasure the war relics that my grandfather brought home because I know what they represent. He raised a family, worked, and retired in Florence, and it was his home, and I know if he were alive he would be glad to hear there is yet another merchant in this city who appreciates the meaning that those relics held for him and the other soldiers who fought valiantly to bring home those banners.

I'd guess you're a spring chicken. Sad that kids your age don't understand the importance of those flags and the meaning they held and hold for the people who fought to bring them home. Do you realize many of those people brought those banners home to families that had grown up in their absence? Do you get the sacrifice that our soldiers made? The few relics left of WWII are not only worth preserving, but they are invaluable. I hope that the banner he has gets in to the hands of other good people who are far wiser and much more respectful than yourself.


Well said. I think that pretty much ended this discussion.
T Trutooit-IIHall of Famer
This isn't about the store. I think what ppl here have said it pretty much true, but its about ebay. I'm not saying you couldn't sell one on ebay, but they really discourage nazi stuff if they catch it. I tried to buy my young cousin a German stamp with Hitler on it. My cousin collects stamps, not nazi items. Before the auction was over, it was pulled by ebay. Not saying ebay is right or wrong. Well actually I think they're wrong, but I see that they think the wrong ppl are buying these things.
SR Sue RealEverybody Knows My Name
Lavergne, I'm apparently older than you, because my father served in WWII, as did 3 other relatives that didn't survive it. No, Dad didn't bring any Nazi trinkets home with him and had contempt for those that did.

Nazi memorabilia, such as this flag, are NOT sold on Ebay. Here is their policy :

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/offensive.html

Perhaps it's valuable to some people, but what kind of customer would that be? Who would want something like that hanging in their living room?
Stuck-In-TrafficStuck-In-TrafficEverybody Knows My Name
quote:
Originally posted by Sue Real:
Lavergne, I'm apparently older than you, because my father served in WWII, as did 3 other relatives that didn't survive it. No, Dad didn't bring any Nazi trinkets home with him and had contempt for those that did.

Nazi memorabilia, such as this flag, are NOT sold on Ebay. Here is their policy :

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/offensive.html

Perhaps it's valuable to some people, but what kind of customer would that be? Who would want something like that hanging in their living room?

I feel the same way about people who listen to gangster (c)Rap music and have anything glorifying Malcom X anywhere in their house.
_Joy__Joy_Old Faithful
Sorry, everyone (including myself) would not know it is war memorabilia or that it would not offend Jewish people who saw it there. However, since I've bought a gun from Chip before & he seemed alright, I would have asked him about it before mentioning it. I would not have known he is Jewish either. If I viewed it as he must and I don't, I might consider removing it.

JMHO
LavergneLavergneSmall Talker
Sue Real, I'm within a few years of your age.

Please read the Ebay policy carefully, and I believe you'll find that it isn't relevant to, or at least not prohibitive of, the specific war relic involved that began this discussion. "We recognize the historical significance of World War II and that there are many militaria collectors around the world. We allow some related historical items, but ban others, particularly those that amount to Nazi propaganda." The relic involved is not affected. Contact ebay directly with a photograph of the exact banner hanging in the store if you need further confirmation that not only do they sell those through that venue, but apparently for a lot. A quick ebay search will show you the same.

I can certainly understand how your father would have had a different reaction to his experience than my grandfather and the rest of his platoon and so many others. War sucks, or so I hear. My grandfather pretty much left it at that.
A AtticFelineHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Lavergne:
I would hope that most folks visiting downtown Florence are smart enough to recognize war memorabilia when they see it.


sorry, not a chance. Frowner


Sadly, I would agree. Especially for visitors to our area. Combine it with the Confederate flags you see flying all over and it doesn't bode to well as a first impression. Then again, does anybody really care what "outsiders" may think?
Woodrow F CallWoodrow F CallFamiliar Face
quote:
Originally posted by AtticFeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Lavergne:
I would hope that most folks visiting downtown Florence are smart enough to recognize war memorabilia when they see it.


sorry, not a chance. Frowner


Sadly, I would agree. Especially for visitors to our area. Combine it with the Confederate flags you see flying all over and it doesn't bode to well as a first impression. Then again, does anybody really care what "outsiders" may think?


What,pray tell, is wrong with the Confederate flag?
Sassy KimsSassy KimsOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by AtticFeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Lavergne:
I would hope that most folks visiting downtown Florence are smart enough to recognize war memorabilia when they see it.


sorry, not a chance. Frowner


Sadly, I would agree. Especially for visitors to our area. Combine it with the Confederate flags you see flying all over and it doesn't bode to well as a first impression. Then again, does anybody really care what "outsiders" may think?


Their first impression wouldn't be any worse than mine of them if they're narrow minded enough to be offended that a pawn and gun shop might sell or display war memorabilia.

Such memorabilia, when accompanied by documenting provenance and other items, can be extremely valuable...not to mention desired by collectors and museums alike.
U U_Talking_MeSmall Talker
The Confederate Battle Flag and the Nazi flag are symbols of Hate that should not be displayed in public. They represent an opinion and that opinion is racial superiority. The shop owner may be a fine fellow, but he isn't community-minded. The next time I buy a gun, I won't buy there as I did last time. Every time I see a Confederate Battle Flag flying on someone's home, it say's a white racist lives here.
MA mad AmericanPost Master
quote:
The Confederate Battle Flag and the Nazi flag are symbols of Hate that should not be displayed in public. They represent an opinion and that opinion is racial superiority. The shop owner may be a fine fellow, but he isn't community-minded. The next time I buy a gun, I won't buy there as I did last time. Every time I see a Confederate Battle Flag flying on someone's home, it say's a white racist lives here.

How bout a Southern Patriot? Dang you're ignorant!
CageTheElephantCageTheElephantPost Master
quote:
Sez U_Talking_Me:
The Confederate Battle Flag and the Nazi flag are symbols of Hate that should not be displayed in public. They represent an opinion and that opinion is racial superiority. The shop owner may be a fine fellow, but he isn't community-minded. The next time I buy a gun, I won't buy there as I did last time. Every time I see a Confederate Battle Flag flying on someone's home, it say's a white racist lives here.


Yeah...I'm sure that ol' "Star Spangled Banner", ya know...American Flag, looks real good to all of the Native American tribes that were treated so nice by those soldiers flying it... Roll Eyes
Mr.Big Hugh JohnsonMr.Big Hugh JohnsonMember
quote:
Originally posted by U_Talking_Me:
The Confederate Battle Flag and the Nazi flag are symbols of Hate that should not be displayed in public. They represent an opinion and that opinion is racial superiority. The shop owner may be a fine fellow, but he isn't community-minded. The next time I buy a gun, I won't buy there as I did last time. Every time I see a Confederate Battle Flag flying on someone's home, it say's a white racist lives here.

I here ya cuz...It usually be some rasist white dude who is pissed cuz all the good lookin white ho's be into the black men now..
B beternUOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by mad American:
I havn't seen it, but how is that worse than all the chicken footprints [peace sybols] displayed around town.


Kindly advise the Forum of what you have against PEACE.

The PEACE symbol became prominent during the Vietnam War era, when thousands of primarily young people had sense enough to see the folly of that deranged military misadventure. Even Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense during that war, has written an anguished book about what a mistake it was. The "PEACEniks" were right; the Establishment was wrong. Looking back, anyone with the cognitive capabilities of a well-disciplined orangutan should be able to understand that powerful fact.
Tw0PenniesToYaTw0PenniesToYaHall of Famer
quote:
beternU
Hall of Famer
Posted 04 February 2011 08:28 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mad American:
I havn't seen it, but how is that worse than all the chicken footprints [peace sybols] displayed around town.


Kindly advise the Forum of what you have against PEACE.

The PEACE symbol became prominent during the Vietnam War era, when thousands of primarily young people had sense enough to see the folly of that deranged military misadventure. Even Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense during that war, has written an anguished book about what a mistake it was. The "PEACEniks" were right; the Establishment was wrong. Looking back, anyone with the cognitive capabilities of a well-disciplined orangutan should be able to understand that powerful fact.



beternU...I appreciate your commentary on the "PEACEniks" during the Vietnam War and I agree on the futility of the war. However, while you are speaking of the "primarily young people" who opposed the war, I truly wish you would have also mentioned the "primarily young people", especially the poor young Southern boys, who were drafted to fight that "deranged military misadventure"...many of them in the front line infantry like my father and my mother's first husband who lost his life in this war (and she subsequently their unborn child upon hearing of his demise). I don't mean to be abrasive, I was simply perusing this topic when I saw what you wrote and I do truly hope you appreciate the men and women who served their country in this war because it was what they were called to do rather than what they chose. As for the original topic, I see both sides of this debate. I know Chip and, even though I have Jewish ancestry, I have no problem with him displaying the swastika but I do agree with some of the other posts that it is perhaps not in his best interest or the interest of a small Southern town.
Road PuppyRoad PuppyOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Big Hugh Johnson:
quote:
Originally posted by U_Talking_Me:
The Confederate Battle Flag and the Nazi flag are symbols of Hate that should not be displayed in public. They represent an opinion and that opinion is racial superiority. The shop owner may be a fine fellow, but he isn't community-minded. The next time I buy a gun, I won't buy there as I did last time. Every time I see a Confederate Battle Flag flying on someone's home, it say's a white racist lives here.

I here ya cuz...It usually be some rasist white dude who is pissed cuz all the good lookin white ho's be into the black men now..



Um, Excuse me mr. apparently black man, but:


"BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!"

You funny, homes. Big Grin
B beternUOld Faithful
Mad and Tw0Pennies--

I hold nothing but respect for the unfortunate men who were drafted and sent to fight in the ill-conceived venture in Vietnam. They did their duty. Many of them did not want to go, but went anyway.

I also respect those who, in good conscience, refused to go, for they understood the futility of that war and they were unwilling to do the bidding of the old men who--as in all wars--send young men to suffer and die in wars, often unnecessarily.

I strongly differ with your broad generalization ,mad American, that "the folks that wore the chicken footprint were the same ones that welcomed our soldiers with protest and spit." Some "peaceniks" might have been among those who showed disrespect for returning soldiers, but not anywhere close to all of them, as you imply. In fact, the incidents of spitting on returning soldiers were very rare indeed. Jerry Lembcke undertook a detailed analysis of the myth of widespread spitting on returning GIs. His book is: The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam.

From one review of Lembcke's book at Amazon.com:

"Lembke dissects dozens of stories of 'Nam vets being spat on by the anti-war movement at home (usually, legend has it, by a young woman in the San Francisco airport). But even more importantly he eloquently exposes and breaks down who the myth serves, and the importance of accurate recollection:
"...Ironically if the real [emphasis added] Vietnam War had been remembered, the Gulf War might not have been fought. We need to take away the power of political and cultural institutions to mythologize our experiences. We need to show how myths are used by political institutions to manipulate the decision making process. And we need to dispel the power of myths like that of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran by debunking them."

"...instances of attacks of U.S. officers by their own men are all but forgotten in the popular remembrances of the Vietnam War. Many Americans today "know" that GIs were mistreated upon their return from Vietnam. Their images of Vietnam veterans run from the hapless sad sack to the freaky serial killer; for them post-traumatic stress disorder is a virtual synonym for the Vietnam veteran. But they have never heard of "fragging," the practice of soldiers killing their own officers. The true story of the widespread rebellion of troops in Vietnam and the affinity of GIs and veterans for the politics of the left has been lost in the myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran."

Check these out also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

http://www.amazon.com/review/R...iewpnt#RYHWTDO0Y8BMP
wright35633wright35633Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Mad and Tw0Pennies--

I hold nothing but respect for the unfortunate men who were drafted and sent to fight in the ill-conceived venture in Vietnam. They did their duty. Many of them did not want to go, but went anyway.

I also respect those who, in good conscience, refused to go, for they understood the futility of that war and they were unwilling to do the bidding of the old men who--as in all wars--send young men to suffer and die in wars, often unnecessarily.

I strongly differ with your broad generalization ,mad American, that "the folks that wore the chicken footprint were the same ones that welcomed our soldiers with protest and spit." Some "peaceniks" might have been among those who showed disrespect for returning soldiers, but not anywhere close to all of them, as you imply. In fact, the incidents of spitting on returning soldiers were very rare indeed. Jerry Lembcke undertook a detailed analysis of the myth of widespread spitting on returning GIs. His book is: The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam.

From one review of Lembcke's book at Amazon.com:

"Lembke dissects dozens of stories of 'Nam vets being spat on by the anti-war movement at home (usually, legend has it, by a young woman in the San Francisco airport). But even more importantly he eloquently exposes and breaks down who the myth serves, and the importance of accurate recollection:
"...Ironically if the real [emphasis added] Vietnam War had been remembered, the Gulf War might not have been fought. We need to take away the power of political and cultural institutions to mythologize our experiences. We need to show how myths are used by political institutions to manipulate the decision making process. And we need to dispel the power of myths like that of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran by debunking them."

"...instances of attacks of U.S. officers by their own men are all but forgotten in the popular remembrances of the Vietnam War. Many Americans today "know" that GIs were mistreated upon their return from Vietnam. Their images of Vietnam veterans run from the hapless sad sack to the freaky serial killer; for them post-traumatic stress disorder is a virtual synonym for the Vietnam veteran. But they have never heard of "fragging," the practice of soldiers killing their own officers. The true story of the widespread rebellion of troops in Vietnam and the affinity of GIs and veterans for the politics of the left has been lost in the myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran."

Check these out also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

http://www.amazon.com/review/R...iewpnt#RYHWTDO0Y8BMP


Very interesting. In my opinion, one spit was too many. I personally watched a man belittle my father in a local grocery store because he served in Vietnam. No matter how one feels about the conflict, it is our patriotic duty to respect those who fight for our country.
Tw0PenniesToYaTw0PenniesToYaHall of Famer
Wright....thank you... in my opinion "one spit was too many" as well. berternU, I have no way of knowing the statistics of which veterans were "spit on" but I know that my father was. You say you "respect those who, in good conscience, refused to go, for they understood the futility of that war and they were unwilling to do the bidding of the old men who--as in all wars--send young men to suffer and die in wars, often unnecessarily". beternU, my father said he would have tried to head back home if he had any idea where "home" was. He didn't want to fight this war, but he was drafted, he did his service to our country and he ended up subsequently deaf.
FirenzeVeritasFirenzeVeritasOld Faithful
No wars are ever totally well thought out. War is necessary if we are attacked. Is it necessary to defend others thousands of miles away from home and with whom we have nothing in common? The point is moot since Viet Nam has been over for 30 years. It's not moot in Afghanistan, but today we have no draft.

Just for the record, I know two brilliant men, both hold doctorates and both served during the View Nam era. The white man was sent to Africa, while the black man was sent to Viet Nam. I haven't done a survey, but I doubt that one would prove any different for others of that era.
Opie CunninghamOpie CunninghamPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by mad American:
quote:
I also respect those who, in good conscience, refused to go,

I don't! Never have never will! If it weren't for soldiers that fought and died neither you or I would have what we do. The peacniks in my opinion are traitors.



How in the world did fighting the Viet Cong ensure anything for the people of our country, other than the loss of 60,000 young lives?
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