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Step 1)  John 6: 35-71

 

Promise of the Eucharist, Jesus prepares the people for the gift of his presence.

There's no mistake in the literal meaning of what he said, if he were speaking

symbolically he would have made that known. What the people said, what the

apostles said and what Jesus said is proof enough this was a serious discourse

of a major part of the Church he was creating.

 

Of course Transubstantiation isn't in the Bible, along with many other words we

use today to describe our explanations. So how do we describe Trinity?

It's not in the Bible, the abridged sixty six or the complete original Bible.

Does the Holy Trinity even exist? Not according to some people.

 

 

Step 2) 1 Cor. 2: 14

14) Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the

Spirit of God,  for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it,

because it is judged spiritually.

 

1 Cor 3: 1-3

1) Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people,

as infants in Christ.

 

2)  I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed,

you are still not able, even now,

 

3) for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,

are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

 

Paul is saying some people can't understand and can't accept the teachings

of the Bible-------

 

Paul does say this about the Eucharist...

 

1 Cor 10: 16-17

16) The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the

blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the

body of the Lord?     

 

17)  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

 

 

1 Cor 11: 23-30

23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that

the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.

 

24) And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body,

which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

 

25) In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice

is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink,

for the commemoration of me.

 

26) For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew

the death of the Lord, until he come.

 

27) Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord

unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

 

28) But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and

drink of the chalice

 

29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment

to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

30) Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

 

And Matthew 26: 26-28

 

26)  And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke:

and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

 

27)  And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying:

Drink ye all of this

 

28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for

many unto remission of sins.

 

Luke 22: 19-20

19)  And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

 

20) In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the

chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

None of this sounds or reads symbolic.

 

 

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hi Vic,

Rather than reinvent the wheel -- let me just show you what I just finished writing in response to Nathan on the same subject:

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Hi Nathan,

 

My Friend, you are trying to pick a few words out of the middle of a Scripture verse or passage, out of context, and twist them into proving your erroneous doctrine.  Let's look at the full passages and see what they really tell us:

 

First, let's look at the Synoptic Gospels:

 

Matthew 26:26-29, "While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.'  (27) And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; (28) for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.  (29) But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.' "

Mark 14:22-25, "While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, 'Take it; this is My body.'  (23) And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.  (24) And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.  (25) Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.' "

 

Now, is Jesus telling us that HE is going to eat His own body and drink His own blood.  Of course not, for we see that HE tells us they are drinking "the fruit of the vine" -- in other words, they and HE are drinking wine -- NOT HIS BLOOD.

 

And, of course, Jesus clears it all up in Luke 22:19 where He tells us to do this "in remembrance of Him" -- not have Him for dinner.


Luke 22:19, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' "

 

Nathan, you quote 1 Corinthians 10:16 -- so, let's look at the full passage.  By the way, in this passage Paul is warning the Corinthians against participating in idol feasts and idol worship; a warning that Roman Catholics should take to heart.

 

1 Corinthians 10:14-19, "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.  (15) I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.  (16) Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ?  Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?  (17) Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.  (18) Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?  (19) What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?"

 

Paul is warning the Corinthians against worshiping idols when Christ has made Himself the "once for all" sacrifice for the atonement of all who, by grace, through faith in His finished work (John 19:30) on the cross -- will believe and receive His "free gift" of eternal life.

 

Then, you pick a few words out of 1 Corinthians 11 and attempt to twist them.  So, let's take a look at the full passage:

 

1 Corinthians 11:23-27 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; (24) and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.'  (25) In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.'  (26) For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.  (27) Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."

Once again, we find Christ telling us to "do this in remembrance of Me" -- not "have Me for dinner."

 

You also referenced 1 Corinthians 11:29:

 

1 Corinthians 11:28-32, "But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.  (29) For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.  (30) For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.  (31) But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.  (32) But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world."

 

What is Paul teaching us in this passage?   For this, let me refer us to a teaching in the commentary on 1 Corinthians 11 written by David Guzik, past Director of the Calvary Chapel College in Germany.  

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org...ans&ar=1Cr_11_29

 

a. Whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord:  Paul is warning the Corinthian Christians to treat the Lord’s Supper with reverence, and to practice it in a spirit of self-examination. However, this is not written with the thought of excluding ourselves from the table, but of preparing us to receive with the right heart.

 

i. The King James Version of 1 Corinthians 11:27 has caused some misunderstanding in this regard: Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.  The wording of unworthily has made some Christians believe they had to “make themselves worthy” to receive communion, or if they had sinned, they were unworthy to come and remember what Jesus had done on the cross for them.

 

ii. This is a serious misunderstanding, because if anyone needs to remember the work of Jesus on the cross, it is the one who has sinned!  When we are repentant, our sin should drive us to our Savior, not away from Him!  However, if a Christian is in sin, and stubbornly unrepentant, they are mocking what Jesus did on the cross to cleanse them from their sin.

 

iii. We can never really make ourselves “worthy” of what Jesus did for us on the cross. He did it because of His great love, not because some of us were so worthy. So, as we take the bread and cup, we should not stare at the floor, or struggle to achieve some sort of spiritual feeling.  We should simply open our heart to Jesus and recognize His presence with us – in fact, in us!

 

b. Poole on as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup“From hence it appears, that the bread and wine is not (as papists say) transubstantiated, or turned into the very substance of the flesh and blood of Christ, when the communicants eat it and drink it.  It is still the same bread and cup it was.”

 

c. Let a man examine himself:  Again, not in a morbid display of self-checking to see if we are worthy of what Jesus did for us; but in a honest appraisal to see if, as we receive communion, we are conducting ourselves in way honoring to the Lord.

 

i. The idea is plain: examine yourself, but then let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup.  The idea is not to keep people away from the table of communion, but to prepare them to receive it in the right way.

 

The commentary continues:

 

a. Eats and drinks judgment to himself: Irreverant conduct at the Lord’s table invites God’s corrective discipline; so we should judge ourselves so we would not be judged. If we will discipline ourselves, the Lord will not need to do it with His hand of correction!

 

i. The words not discerning the Lord’s body have been used by Roman Catholics to support their doctrine of transubstantiation.  Their thinking is, “see, the Corinthians did not understand they were actually receiving the real body and the real blood of Jesus, and that is why they were guilty.”  But this is a very narrow foundation, that a huge building has been built upon!  It is just as easy – and just as valid – to see the Lord’s body as a reference to the church family, and it was the lack of respect and love for the church family that was causing the problems of selfishness among the Corinthian Christians.

 

So, Nathan, my Friend -- we see that when we examine the fuller passages -- they have a much different meaning -- and not your teaching of the Eucharist.

 

Let's end by once again examining John 6:

 

In John 6:1-14 Jesus is feeding the 5000 on the eastern bank of the Sea of Galilee.

 

In John 6:15-21 Jesus and His apostles travel by boat, after His walk on water, to the town of Capernaum on the western bank of the Sea of Galilee.

 

John 6:22, the verse begins with, "The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea. . . "   The next day refers to the day after He had fed the 5000.

 

In John 6:22 and forward, Jesus teaches, in the city of Capernaun,  His discourse on the bread of life -- teaching that, as God had sent manna (physical food) from heaven to feed the Israelites in the wilderness -- God has now sent spiritual food, His Son, to offer eternal life to all who, by grace, through faith in His work finished on the cross (John 19:30) -- will believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior.

 

John 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Last Supper, Communion, or what you call the Eucharist.  He is comparing the physical food sent by God from heaven (manna) to save His chosen people physically -- to the spiritual food sent by God from heaven (Himself) to offer salvation to ALL His people.

 

So, my Friend, I pray this gives you a much more clear understanding of those Scripture passages which you have chosen to use as proof text for your erroneous doctrine of the Eucharist.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Step 1)  John 6: 35-71

 

Promise of the Eucharist, Jesus prepares the people for the gift of his presence.

There's no mistake in the literal meaning of what he said, if he were speaking

symbolically he would have made that known. What the people said, what the

apostles said and what Jesus said is proof enough this was a serious discourse

of a major part of the Church he was creating.

 

Of course Transubstantiation isn't in the Bible, along with many other words we

use today to describe our explanations. So how do we describe Trinity?

It's not in the Bible, the abridged sixty six or the complete original Bible.

Does the Holy Trinity even exist? Not according to some people.

 

 

Step 2) 1 Cor. 2: 14

14) Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the

Spirit of God,  for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it,

because it is judged spiritually.

 

1 Cor 3: 1-3

1) Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people,

as infants in Christ.

 

2)  I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed,

you are still not able, even now,

 

3) for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,

are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

 

Paul is saying some people can't understand and can't accept the teachings

of the Bible-------

 

Paul does say this about the Eucharist...

 

1 Cor 10: 16-17

16) The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the

blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the

body of the Lord?     

 

17)  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

 

 

1 Cor 11: 23-30

23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that

the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.

 

24) And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body,

which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

 

25) In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice

is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink,

for the commemoration of me.

 

26) For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew

the death of the Lord, until he come.

 

27) Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord

unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

 

28) But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and

drink of the chalice

 

29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment

to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

30) Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

 

And Matthew 26: 26-28

 

26)  And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke:

and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

 

27)  And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying:

Drink ye all of this

 

28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for

many unto remission of sins.

 

Luke 22: 19-20

19)  And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

 

20) In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the

chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

None of this sounds or reads symbolic.

 

 

 

Hi folks,

 

Since Vic finds it difficult to get past his copy/paste posts -- all he has the ability to do when anyone offers an intelligent analysis of those posts -- is to repost the same copy/paste over and over and over.

 

So, to get past this childish antic -- just take one step above his ranting and you will see my response to the false and erroneous Roman Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Step 1)  John 6: 35-71

 

Promise of the Eucharist, Jesus prepares the people for the gift of his presence.

There's no mistake in the literal meaning of what he said, if he were speaking

symbolically he would have made that known. What the people said, what the

apostles said and what Jesus said is proof enough this was a serious discourse

of a major part of the Church he was creating.

 

Of course Transubstantiation isn't in the Bible, along with many other words we

use today to describe our explanations. So how do we describe Trinity?

It's not in the Bible, the abridged sixty six or the complete original Bible.

Does the Holy Trinity even exist? Not according to some people.

 

 

Step 2) 1 Cor. 2: 14

14) Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the

Spirit of God,  for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it,

because it is judged spiritually.

 

1 Cor 3: 1-3

1) Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people,

as infants in Christ.

 

2)  I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed,

you are still not able, even now,

 

3) for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,

are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

 

Paul is saying some people can't understand and can't accept the teachings

of the Bible-------

 

Paul does say this about the Eucharist...

 

1 Cor 10: 16-17

16) The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the

blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the

body of the Lord?     

 

17)  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

 

 

1 Cor 11: 23-30

23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that

the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.

 

24) And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body,

which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

 

25) In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice

is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink,

for the commemoration of me.

 

26) For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew

the death of the Lord, until he come.

 

27) Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord

unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

 

28) But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and

drink of the chalice

 

29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment

to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

30) Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

 

And Matthew 26: 26-28

 

26)  And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke:

and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

 

27)  And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying:

Drink ye all of this

 

28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for

many unto remission of sins.

 

Luke 22: 19-20

19)  And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

 

20) In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the

chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

None of this sounds or reads symbolic.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Step 1)  John 6: 35-71

 

Promise of the Eucharist, Jesus prepares the people for the gift of his presence.

There's no mistake in the literal meaning of what he said, if he were speaking

symbolically he would have made that known. What the people said, what the

apostles said and what Jesus said is proof enough this was a serious discourse

of a major part of the Church he was creating.

 

Of course Transubstantiation isn't in the Bible, along with many other words we

use today to describe our explanations. So how do we describe Trinity?

It's not in the Bible, the abridged sixty six or the complete original Bible.

Does the Holy Trinity even exist? Not according to some people.

 

 

Step 2) 1 Cor. 2: 14

14) Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the

Spirit of God,  for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it,

because it is judged spiritually.

 

1 Cor 3: 1-3

1) Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people,

as infants in Christ.

 

2)  I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed,

you are still not able, even now,

 

3) for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,

are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

 

Paul is saying some people can't understand and can't accept the teachings

of the Bible-------

 

Paul does say this about the Eucharist...

 

1 Cor 10: 16-17

16) The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the

blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the

body of the Lord?     

 

17)  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

 

 

1 Cor 11: 23-30

23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that

the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.

 

24) And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body,

which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

 

25) In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice

is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink,

for the commemoration of me.

 

26) For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew

the death of the Lord, until he come.

 

27) Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord

unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

 

28) But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and

drink of the chalice

 

29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment

to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

30) Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

 

And Matthew 26: 26-28

 

26)  And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke:

and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

 

27)  And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying:

Drink ye all of this

 

28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for

many unto remission of sins.

 

Luke 22: 19-20

19)  And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

 

20) In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the

chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

None of this sounds or reads symbolic.

 

 

 

 

Of course it's not symbolic. We know this, Vic. The majority of Christians around the world also know this. Bill would have been among those who had trouble with this difficult teaching, and stopped following Jesus (as many did) at this point. It's fine, Bill- we get it- you don't believe the words of our Lord. But for Petes sake- leave if alone. As you like to say, "the bible said it and we believe it". Choose to "do this in remembrance" however you wish. But you will NEVER and I do mean NEVER convince catholic people that the Eucharist is not exactly what He says it is: Jesus in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Hi Vic,

 

ONCE AGAIN!


Rather than reinvent the wheel -- let me just show you what I just finished writing in response to Nathan on the same subject:

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Hi Nathan,

 

My Friend, you are trying to pick a few words out of the middle of a Scripture verse or passage, out of context, and twist them into proving your erroneous doctrine.  Let's look at the full passages and see what they really tell us:

 

First, let's look at the Synoptic Gospels:

 

Matthew 26:26-29, "While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body.'  (27) And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you; (28) for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.  (29) But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.' "

Mark 14:22-25, "While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, 'Take it; this is My body.'  (23) And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.  (24) And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.  (25) Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.' "

 

Now, is Jesus telling us that HE is going to eat His own body and drink His own blood.  Of course not, for we see that HE tells us they are drinking "the fruit of the vine" -- in other words, they and HE are drinking wine -- NOT HIS BLOOD.

 

And, of course, Jesus clears it all up in Luke 22:19 where He tells us to do this "in remembrance of Him" -- not have Him for dinner.


Luke 22:19, "And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' "

 

Nathan, you quote 1 Corinthians 10:16 -- so, let's look at the full passage.  By the way, in this passage Paul is warning the Corinthians against participating in idol feasts and idol worship; a warning that Roman Catholics should take to heart.

 

1 Corinthians 10:14-19, "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.  (15) I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.  (16) Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ?  Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?  (17) Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.  (18) Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?  (19) What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?"

 

Paul is warning the Corinthians against worshiping idols when Christ has made Himself the "once for all" sacrifice for the atonement of all who, by grace, through faith in His finished work (John 19:30) on the cross -- will believe and receive His "free gift" of eternal life.

 

Then, you pick a few words out of 1 Corinthians 11 and attempt to twist them.  So, let's take a look at the full passage:

 

1 Corinthians 11:23-27 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; (24) and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.'  (25) In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.'  (26) For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.  (27) Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."

Once again, we find Christ telling us to "do this in remembrance of Me" -- not "have Me for dinner."

 

You also referenced 1 Corinthians 11:29:

 

1 Corinthians 11:28-32, "But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.  (29) For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.  (30) For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.  (31) But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.  (32) But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world."

 

What is Paul teaching us in this passage?   For this, let me refer us to a teaching in the commentary on 1 Corinthians 11 written by David Guzik, past Director of the Calvary Chapel College in Germany.  

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org...ans&ar=1Cr_11_29

 

a. Whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord:  Paul is warning the Corinthian Christians to treat the Lord’s Supper with reverence, and to practice it in a spirit of self-examination. However, this is not written with the thought of excluding ourselves from the table, but of preparing us to receive with the right heart.

 

i. The King James Version of 1 Corinthians 11:27 has caused some misunderstanding in this regard: Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.  The wording of unworthily has made some Christians believe they had to “make themselves worthy” to receive communion, or if they had sinned, they were unworthy to come and remember what Jesus had done on the cross for them.

 

ii. This is a serious misunderstanding, because if anyone needs to remember the work of Jesus on the cross, it is the one who has sinned!  When we are repentant, our sin should drive us to our Savior, not away from Him!  However, if a Christian is in sin, and stubbornly unrepentant, they are mocking what Jesus did on the cross to cleanse them from their sin.

 

iii. We can never really make ourselves “worthy” of what Jesus did for us on the cross. He did it because of His great love, not because some of us were so worthy. So, as we take the bread and cup, we should not stare at the floor, or struggle to achieve some sort of spiritual feeling.  We should simply open our heart to Jesus and recognize His presence with us – in fact, in us!

 

b. Poole on as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup“From hence it appears, that the bread and wine is not (as papists say) transubstantiated, or turned into the very substance of the flesh and blood of Christ, when the communicants eat it and drink it.  It is still the same bread and cup it was.”

 

c. Let a man examine himself:  Again, not in a morbid display of self-checking to see if we are worthy of what Jesus did for us; but in a honest appraisal to see if, as we receive communion, we are conducting ourselves in way honoring to the Lord.

 

i. The idea is plain: examine yourself, but then let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup.  The idea is not to keep people away from the table of communion, but to prepare them to receive it in the right way.

 

The commentary continues:

 

a. Eats and drinks judgment to himself: Irreverant conduct at the Lord’s table invites God’s corrective discipline; so we should judge ourselves so we would not be judged. If we will discipline ourselves, the Lord will not need to do it with His hand of correction!

 

i. The words not discerning the Lord’s body have been used by Roman Catholics to support their doctrine of transubstantiation.  Their thinking is, “see, the Corinthians did not understand they were actually receiving the real body and the real blood of Jesus, and that is why they were guilty.”  But this is a very narrow foundation, that a huge building has been built upon!  It is just as easy – and just as valid – to see the Lord’s body as a reference to the church family, and it was the lack of respect and love for the church family that was causing the problems of selfishness among the Corinthian Christians.

 

So, Nathan, my Friend -- we see that when we examine the fuller passages -- they have a much different meaning -- and not your teaching of the Eucharist.

 

Let's end by once again examining John 6:

 

In John 6:1-14 Jesus is feeding the 5000 on the eastern bank of the Sea of Galilee.

 

In John 6:15-21 Jesus and His apostles travel by boat, after His walk on water, to the town of Capernaum on the western bank of the Sea of Galilee.

 

John 6:22, the verse begins with, "The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea. . . "   The next day refers to the day after He had fed the 5000.

 

In John 6:22 and forward, Jesus teaches, in the city of Capernaun,  His discourse on the bread of life -- teaching that, as God had sent manna (physical food) from heaven to feed the Israelites in the wilderness -- God has now sent spiritual food, His Son, to offer eternal life to all who, by grace, through faith in His work finished on the cross (John 19:30) -- will believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior.

 

John 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Last Supper, Communion, or what you call the Eucharist.  He is comparing the physical food sent by God from heaven (manna) to save His chosen people physically -- to the spiritual food sent by God from heaven (Himself) to offer salvation to ALL His people.

 

So, my Friend, I pray this gives you a much more clear understanding of those Scripture passages which you have chosen to use as proof text for your erroneous doctrine of the Eucharist.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Step 1)  John 6: 35-71

 

Promise of the Eucharist, Jesus prepares the people for the gift of his presence.

There's no mistake in the literal meaning of what he said, if he were speaking

symbolically he would have made that known. What the people said, what the

apostles said and what Jesus said is proof enough this was a serious discourse

of a major part of the Church he was creating.

 

Of course Transubstantiation isn't in the Bible, along with many other words we

use today to describe our explanations. So how do we describe Trinity?

It's not in the Bible, the abridged sixty six or the complete original Bible.

Does the Holy Trinity even exist? Not according to some people.

 

 

Step 2) 1 Cor. 2: 14

14) Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the

Spirit of God,  for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it,

because it is judged spiritually.

 

1 Cor 3: 1-3

1) Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people,

as infants in Christ.

 

2)  I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it. Indeed,

you are still not able, even now,

 

3) for you are still of the flesh. While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,

are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?

 

Paul is saying some people can't understand and can't accept the teachings

of the Bible-------

 

Paul does say this about the Eucharist...

 

1 Cor 10: 16-17

16) The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the

blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the

body of the Lord?     

 

17)  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

 

 

1 Cor 11: 23-30

23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that

the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread.

 

24) And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body,

which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

 

25) In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice

is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink,

for the commemoration of me.

 

26) For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew

the death of the Lord, until he come.

 

27) Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord

unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

 

28) But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and

drink of the chalice

 

29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment

to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

 

30) Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

 

 

And Matthew 26: 26-28

 

26)  And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke:

and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

 

27)  And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying:

Drink ye all of this

 

28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for

many unto remission of sins.

 

Luke 22: 19-20

19)  And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

 

20) In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the

chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

 

None of this sounds or reads symbolic.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

Much like the in the Roman Catholic Catechisms, all we see from Vic is repetitive posting of his original copy/paste post, ad infinitum.     The poor soul is so indoctrinated and brainwashed by the catechisms and teachings -- that he cannot think for himself.  As a consequence, all he can do is to copy/paste what his Vatican masters have written for him. 

 

And, when someone brings those copy/paste writings into question -- my Friend, Vic, has only one recourse:  continue to copy/paste the same thing over and over and over and over again -- or start cursing and calling the person who questions his posts derogatory names.    Such is obviously the extent of the education he has received from the Roman Catholic church.  Such a pity.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Much like the in the Roman Catholic Catechisms, all we see from Vic is repetitive posting of his original copy/paste post, ad infinitum.     The poor soul is so indoctrinated and brainwashed by the catechisms and teachings -- that he cannot think for himself.  As a consequence, all he can do is to copy/paste what his Vatican masters have written for him. 

 

And, when someone brings those copy/paste writings into question -- my Friend, Vic, has only one recourse:  continue to copy/paste the same thing over and over and over and over again -- or start cursing and calling the person who questions his posts derogatory names.    Such is obviously the extent of the education he has received from the Roman Catholic church.  Such a pity.

 

 

Hey..!! Keep your shirt on...........How many times have you posted
the above?????

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