Teach both sides!

quote:

Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
Yes, schools must teach "both sides" of science!

Gob,

Does this mean we cannot have magic shows at school?

quote:

Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:
Yes, schools must teach "both sides" of science!

ever,


Probably is a God...the christians don't worry about this.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

Gob,

Does this mean we cannot have magic shows at school?

Oky doky by me .... as long as it is presented as a magic show. the problem is when magic is presented as real science.

quote:

Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

Gob,

Does this mean we cannot have magic shows at school?

Oky doky by me .... as long as it is presented as a magic show. the problem is when magic is presented as real science.

I was just wondering. Yours is flawed logic.

It just occurred that you might be in some position that would allow cartoons as you posted to be displayed in a school classroom .

I understand there are those serving in that capacity that are %95 orangutan.

I would hate to see a systematic censure to the point that students picking fleas off each other’s ass the substance of their curriculum.

Schools teach evolution, churches teach God.

Where's the problem?

I'd like to take this opportunity and thank my parents for sending me to parochial schools.
I loved religion class.

In-school masses always seem to preempt algebra class.. Praise God!

The true problem arrises when scientific THEORY is passed of in schools as proven. By definition, theory CANNOT be fact until proven. So many theories are thrown around as fact and kids are brought up believing them as such.
Evolution was the one of my day... now man-made global warming will be the theory taught as fact to fool the mindless masses of today.
Just keep it in perspective... If you are an atheist who believes that the universe was/is/and will be without God, you are using just as much faith in a theory as you say Christians are.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

I was just wondering. Yours is flawed logic.

It just occurred that you might be in some position that would allow cartoons as you posted to be displayed in a school classroom .

I understand there are those serving in that capacity that are %95 orangutan.

I would hate to see a systematic censure to the point that students picking fleas off each other’s ass the substance of their curriculum.

MY logic is flawed? These are the nonsensical words of a disturbed individual. No wonder you think my logic is flawed. You're going by a wholly separate set of rules!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
The true problem arrises when scientific THEORY is passed of in schools as proven. By definition, theory CANNOT be fact until proven.

The cartoon was directed at people like you. According to you, germ theory, atomic theory, gravitational theory and quantum theory are all just "theories" so we should teach the alternatives to those, too. Perhaps after a few years of teaching the alternative nonsense, the teacher might have a chance to teach the actual science.

Look up "scientific theory" compared to common usage of the word "theory" and you might just learn something . . . Probably not.

quote:

Originally posted by O No!:
http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

THIS is an excellent essay on the scientific meaning of "theory" Peter.

I know the definition of theory. Evolution as a term used to describe the origin of all things is a theory... unproven, thus cannot be fact.
Man-made global warming is a theory that cannot be proven, thus cannot be fact.
Carbon dating is a guess at best, thus true dating of remains is theory that is unproven, thus cannot be fact.
Science calls for belief in something based on FACT... Spirituality calls for faith mixed with knowledge of facts. That's my only point... just remember in your everlasting fight to live a God-less life, you need just as much faith as I do to live a God-fearing one.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Schools teach evolution, churches teach God.

Where's the problem?

SCHOOLS HAVE OUR KIDS 40 HOURS A WEEK - CHURCH, MAYBE 1 TO 2 HOURS A WEEK! - CLOSE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND HAVE ONLY PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

quote:

Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Gob, Does this mean we cannot have magic shows at school?

Oky doky by me .... as long as it is presented as a magic show. the problem is when magic is presented as real science.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH YOU, MY FRIEND, IS TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH ALL YOUR POSTING NAMES!

quote:

Originally posted by Everlasting Godstopper:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

I was just wondering. Yours is flawed logic.

It just occurred that you might be in some position that would allow cartoons as you posted to be displayed in a school classroom .

I understand there are those serving in that capacity that are %95 orangutan.

I would hate to see a systematic censure to the point that students picking fleas off each other’s ass the substance of their curriculum.

MY logic is flawed? These are the nonsensical words of a disturbed individual. No wonder you think my logic is flawed. You're going by a wholly separate set of rules!

Gobstopper,

The inherent trait of myself is directly apposed your propensity to lie involuntarily.

I always insist on the truth of the matter regardless of the subject.

My statements are always based on scientific authority that in every case is from the PhD level.

Your ejaculations such as this cartoon are based on authority of which you haven’t a clue as to their credibility or where you heard it.

You are always the self appointed spokesman for mutiny against any captain of a theory when you haven’t a clue as to what part of the heavens one might have a look for the North Star.

I have said before and I will continue to say:

Religion should be taught in church and at home, not in our public schools!

Have any of you read a high school biology book? It in no way tells the students that there is or is not a god. Doesn't even come close to that subject.

I would be opposed to it if it did. Public run schools have no business teaching religion on any level.

Jank, what public school have you ever known that taught religion?

Are you making this up?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Schools teach evolution, churches teach God.

Where's the problem?

SCHOOLS HAVE OUR KIDS 40 HOURS A WEEK - CHURCH, MAYBE 1 TO 2 HOURS A WEEK! - CLOSE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND HAVE ONLY PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

HOMESCHOOL!

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Jank, what public school have you ever known that taught religion?

Are you making this up?

Well I don't remember making that statement, but when I was in elementary school the teachers always had us read a verse out of the bible then someone led a prayer, right before we said the pledge of allegiance every morning.

I don't remember when that stopped but I can't remember having to do that in high school.

I am not sure if that is actually "teaching" religion though. It was more like forced participation in the teachers religion.

As far as I know that is not going on in any public schools anymore. Except the pledge. Hopefully we will soon drop the "under god" bit out and then it will finally be free of religion.

Same here Jank, every morning we had a Bible reading in history class in the 6th grade.
It didn't happen in HS so I am guessing it was a preference of the teacher and no one complained.

Jank, now that’s a bit of a stretch to call that teaching religion.

It's no stretch at all.

Children in school are at the mercy of authority figures. If those figures, their teachers, encourage prayer, it is much like encouraging geography.

How can anyone not see this?


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
It's no stretch at all.

Children in school are at the mercy of authority figures. If those figures, their teachers, encourage prayer, it is much like encouraging geography.

How can anyone not see this?


nsns

last year, in my sons school, the students organized a semi weekly pre school prayer meet dealie...

the kids that wanted to go, went. they gathered aroudn the flagpole before school, with no teachers or admin around... 100% seudents. they used word of mouth to arrainge things.

it was on school grounds, but the school wasn't involved in any way.
i say semi weekly, because sometiems it was a couple tiems a week, sometime it was once every couple a weeks. nothing regular.

i have no problem with this idea. the kids that wanna participate could. if they didn't want to, they didn't. it had nothing to do with the faculty and administration.

what i have a problem with is the idea of the mteaching religious issues at school.

my sons history book has a chapter devoted to religion..
my this i mean in the chaper there are 2 pages on hinduism, 2 on islam, 2 on christianity, 2 on buddhism.. several flavors of religion...

the information in the pages is very basic.. ' muslims believe in Allah and the teachings of the muslim prohpet mohammed. their holy book is the koran. there are 2 main types of muslim, shiite and sunni... and so on and so on.. root data. no mention of who created anything or even a hint that one could be more correct than the others.
i think that's a good thing.

i think offically sanctioned prayer is a bad idea. i think a class teaching any religion is a bad idea... thre is a difference in teaching kids a religion and teaching kids ABOUT religion.

i think my point was in reply to the original post.. ' teach both sides'...

i have a better idea.... lets leave teaching kids about God to the parents.

bill points out that schools have the kids for 40 hours a week, churchs only have them for 1 or 2 hours a week.
parents have them for 168 hours a week, so lets leave the theological education to them.

i don't want someone like Bill Gray teaching my children his hatefull fearfull twisted version of christs love.

i'm with the atheists in this.. keep religion out of the schools.
i have a whole different reason than they do, but the end result is the same...when they teach calculus in church, they can teach leviticus in math class.

agree. completely. i'd be Pissed if someone taught religion in a non-perochial school to my kids.
So I am thankful for the privelege to send my kids to school where every day is started with a prayer.
Once a year, they gather around the flagpole, to say their prayers. A reminder of how Blessed they are to be able to pray in school.

thenagel,

I'm all in favor of religious education in the fashion your kid's school teaches it. Comparative religion. Cool. I'll teach it.

As for religion vs. public education, first, the public schools teach comparative education maybe a couple hours a month. And, they don't threaten the children with the prospect of HELL if they don't come to a certain conclusion.

A couple hours on Sunday, by authority figures, is enough to scare the shizzle out of kids. When the parents pretend to believe the drooling nonsense out of a pastor's mouth, the kids will too. Only they haven't the sense to know it's all debatable. They are not encouraged to employ skepticism.

C'est dommage.

Regards,


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
thenagel,

I'm all in favor of religious education in the fashion your kid's school teaches it. Comparative religion. Cool. I'll teach it.

As for religion vs. public education, first, the public schools teach comparative education maybe a couple hours a month. And, they don't threaten the children with the prospect of HELL if they don't come to a certain conclusion.

A couple hours on Sunday, by authority figures, is enough to scare the shizzle out of kids. When the parents pretend to believe the drooling nonsense out of a pastor's mouth, the kids will too. Only they haven't the sense to know it's all debatable. They are not encouraged to employ skepticism.

C'est dommage.

Regards,


nsns

heh heh... not here, sir.

i've taught my children one of hte worst things they can do is blindly accept the word of an ' authority figure' as fact without looking it up for themselves.

i included my self in that, but did tell them there are going to be things they will just have to accept for a few years until they are able to confirm...

the fastest way to get my kids to put you in the BS list is to answer a question ' because i'm an adult.. you'll just have to trust me.... you'll understand when your older...

answers that don't answer anything are a quick way to get my kids to ignore anything you say...

it also doesn't hurt that i don't put a lot of stock in the bible as the written word of god... and yes, i also make it clear to them that this is my opinion, not something i say is fact.

i tell my kids the same way i write things in here....this is what i believe... this is what i think... and here is why i think this...

unless it is somethign with hard and fast solid proof that can be measured, weighed and demonstrated, it's always 'this is what i believe'.

maybe it's a bad idea... maybe i'm just raising people who will turn into athiests..

but, regardless, i cannot lie to my kids, and tell them somethign is absoloutly true when i cannot open a book or point to proof that shows it to be so.

thenagel,

Simple question: What do you teach your kids about God?


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
The true problem arrises when scientific THEORY is passed of in schools as proven. By definition, theory CANNOT be fact until proven. So many theories are thrown around as fact and kids are brought up believing them as such.
Evolution was the one of my day... now man-made global warming will be the theory taught as fact to fool the mindless masses of today.
Just keep it in perspective... If you are an atheist who believes that the universe was/is/and will be without God, you are using just as much faith in a theory as you say Christians are.

I'm guessing you didn't do very well in science class. There is a difference between a scientific theory, and a regular theory.

While I don't know what they are teaching about global warming in school these days, - global warming, regardless of cause, is a fact. Beware the extremists, and their agendas, on either side of the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
thenagel,

Simple question: What do you teach your kids about God?


nsns

Sorry.. i missed this one...

i teach them absoloutly everything i can.

and i include the phrases ' i think' and 'i believe' as often as possible, and i try to never ever use the words ' it IS' and ' i KNOW' and ' you should'

i also point out where ever possible 'but, some people think differently'

and when i know what they think and teach, i tell them what it is... even the whackobabble stuff... me and my 13 year old son had a lively discussion about the idea of the earth being 6000 years old. without prompting he came to me and said
' dad.. some kid in my school was telling me his dad is trying to tell him the earth is only 6000 years old. "
i asked him what he thought about the idea he said
' i think that might be the dumbest idea i've ever heard. they can proove that some rocks are billions and billions of years old. they do carbon dating on dinosaur bones and can pin down the exact era they were alive in. do people really believe that, or is he just messing with me.'

i explained that some people do indeed believe it. but that i didn't believe it. when i told him of the idea that 6000 years ago, god created the earth 6.5 billion years old i thought he was gonna explode. it took me a minute to get the idea through to him...
ok.. so.. they believe...make sure i understand you... they believe that god created a world that was 6.5 billion years old in the first milisecond it existed.. when it was brand spanking new, it was already 6.5 billion years old. is that right?

' yup. .you got iy.. that's what some people believe'
' jeez dad.. are people really that stupid?"
i explained that yes... some people are.



BUT.. to get right around to the meat of it and to answer the question you were looking to have answered...

Yes... i DO tell them that there is a possibility that there is no God, that we're all just blowing smoke and wasteing a lot of time and energy over the idea.
i tell them that there is no way we can ever KNOW that God is real until we are dead. and then we will absoloutly know if he is real.
OR.. we won't ever know it because he isn't real, and it'll just be like flipping off a light switch... there will be nothing TO know. it'll just be over.

i spent a long time one night in an open discussion on the subject of belief, faith, and the existance or non existance of God with my wife and children shortly before school started.
we talked for hours. they would ask questions, and my wife and i would try our best to answer them, and we always made sure we added 'well, what *I* think is.." or 'your father and i believe'...
and after we told them what we believe, we told them why we believe it.
and in the end we told them 'now you know what we think.. and why we think it.. and what we believe and why, and what we put our faith in, and why.' that has nothing to do with what YOU should believe and why should believe it.
take what we said and think about it. read the bible. think about it. if you ahve more questions, come ask. we will do out best to give you a reasonable answer.

BUT.. i want you to rememeber one thing... one very important thing.... if any man ever answer you by saying 'this is what the bible says, this is what it means, and you better believe it or you are going to hell" then you need go get away from him and find someone else to ask because that's the kind of person who will lead you astray - they care more about getting people to follow THEIR word, glorifing themself than teaching GOD's word for the glory of God.

my son said ' you mean like that bill guy you laugh at on the internet?

i told him Yup. Bill teaches the word and the will of bill, God doesn't enter into the discussion. God isn't invited into Bill's church.
and He wouldn't go even if he was invited.

hahaha..... Nagel, that's about as cool as I would have expected.

You are doing your son a great service by not indoctrinating him, but letting him explore the world for himself. Would that there were about 5 billion more like you.

If he grows up to be an atheist, what would you say? Would you prefer that to the scams that go by the names of Mormonism and Scientology? What if he embraced Islam?

Thanks for the entertaining and honest response.

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
hahaha..... Nagel, that's about as cool as I would have expected.

You are doing your son a great service by not indoctrinating him, but letting him explore the world for himself. Would that there were about 5 billion more like you.

If he grows up to be an atheist, what would you say? Would you prefer that to the scams that go by the names of Mormonism and Scientology? What if he embraced Islam?

Thanks for the entertaining and honest response.

nsns

if he told me he was an athiest, .. well, honestly, i'd spend a few minutes with him to try and figure out if there was any thing in particular that caused his lack of faith in god.... if there was, i'd do my best to try and help him figure out how to look at it from the other side...

if there wasn't any particular thing, or it was something i couldn't come up with a reason for, i'd accept it and let it go.

i'm not saying i wouldn't try and change his mind, but i wouldn't hound him about it after an attempt or two. i would just want to make sure, for my own peace of mind, that he wasn't basing such an important decision on mistaken information, ya know? for example - anything bill gray has ever said. that'd be a horrible thing to make a decision from.

but it certainly wouldn't make any difference how i felt abotu him. i'd rather him be an athiest that a Fundy. at least most athiests i've met are good people.

mormon or scientologist..

ok.. i'd like to think i could just accept it and let it go...
however, i know myself well enough to be pretty sure that'd be the end of any discussion of religion between father and son... not our relationsip.. nothign would ever make me walk away form him, but we'd never discuss religion again because i'd spend to much time giggling to have a serious discussion. i wouldn't be angry.... but. .scientology? really? at least mormonism wasn't 'founded' by a science fiction writer.
what's next, the holy tabernacle of stephen king?
please.

i'm afraid to say that yeah.. i think i would prefer an atheist child to one suckered by science fiction.
there is a <ahem> religion based upon one of the works of robert heinlein, who was a far greater writer than L. Ron ever was. fortunatly, heinlein wasn't unlucky enough to have the travesty based on his work become popular and spread past a few suckers. i've read dianetics. i perconally believe that hubbard pulled the greatest ' gotcha' on the american public ever. remember how people freaked out when orson wells did war of the worlds? same thing.. hubbard wrote a book as tho it were true, and a pile of idiots bought it. and now we have a large number of people whom i'd expect to know better wearing that hat.
google 'the church of all worlds'.
it's a riot.


Islam?
hmm.
it depends.
is he serious? is it for real?
or is he trying to shock and rebel from his vaguly christian raising?
if it's real, i'd respect his choice and sit down with him so maybe i could understand the muslim world a little better.
if it was the other.. well.. there's no more reason to respect a temper tantrum at 21 than there is at 5.
i'd buy him a case of really good beer, a porn tape, and a bbq pork sandwhich and put an end to that sillyness

I don't think the BBQ pork wouldn't be a great hit. Nor would Spot, the family dog.

Good response, and fair minded. I think you understand why atheists exist.

No one but the afflicted understands why Mormons and Scientologists exist. I suspect they don't either.

Xenu. Google him.


nsns

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
I don't think the BBQ pork wouldn't be a great hit. Nor would Spot, the family dog.

Good response, and fair minded. I think you understand why atheists exist.

No one but the afflicted understands why Mormons and Scientologists exist. I suspect they don't either.

Xenu. Google him.


nsns

the dog is wilbur, and he's far to hairy to try and bbq.

i know xenu.
well. .i mean.. not personally..
you know what i mean.

i do indeed understand atheist.. i used to be one.
i had a great huge moment in my life that caused me to change my mind.

but i've been on the other side of the fence.. i know how easy it is to not believe.. how hard it is to let yourself accept a sky fairy.

you could say.. i didn't decide to believe... i had belief slammed into my face by god himself. it's a log story... under the thread 'for the seekers' i think authored by Jank, if you wanna go back and read it. i don't suggest it

yes. i understand. i was there.
having been there, i understand that some dude railing at you, bashing you with his iron clad bible isn't going to help you see anything buy hipocrasy and hate.

so i take the other path... i don't tell you you are wrong, you don't tell me i am a sheep, and we work towards the middle to help engender open friendly discussions from both sides, and maybe perhaps have an open minded exchange of ideas.
the more you know, the easier it is to get along...

after all.... knowing.. is half the battle.

Fair enough, but you realize that we humans are capable of talking ourselves into the most insane nonsense.

UFO abductions come to mind. So does a personal god.


nsns

I found this to be interesting. Just another reason why we should keep religion from being taught in public schools.

Read this

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Fair enough, but you realize that we humans are capable of talking ourselves into the most insane nonsense.

UFO abductions come to mind. So does a personal god.


nsns

oh absoloutly.

however, to convince yourself that something is true takes a while... it's not an over night process..

... and it's certainly not an on/off issue.

one minute sitting and thinking abotu somethign that has nothing to do with god... the great question of god existance is the absoloute farthest thing form your mind...

.. and 2 seconds later you are hit full in the face with proof.

say your sitting in in a cafe, reading the latest ball game scores...
.. out of no where, elvis jumps into your lap and kisses you dead on the mouth.
he says ' thankya baybeh.. thankya".. and he strolls off...

a minute ago you weren't thinking about elvis... but now you know for a fact his isn't really buried in graceland and the nutters from the weekly world news were right.
elvis lives.

it was like that, minus the old fat guy lips.

well.. for me anyway.
the upside is, because of the nature of the revelation of my belief, i do not expect ayone else to accept it... what good does it do YOU for ME to have a revelation?

and how big a fool would i have to be to expect other people to accept what i experianced as proof of god?

well.. joseph smith built a whole church on it.
i guess i'm just more honest that mr. smith's