Skip to main content

What do you think the officer should have done different, if anything?



PULASKI, Tenn. --


Two Pulaski police officers are off the job after arresting a doctor on her way to deliver a baby.

Officer Chad Estes and Sgt. Justin Young have been suspended without pay.

Dr. Terry Wynn, an OB/GYN, was stopped for speeding in May. She told the officer she had to get to the hospital to deliver a baby and then drove off.

The officer followed her and arrested her.

The city hired an outside attorney to investigate allegations of racism because Wynn is black. In the end, the police chief determined race was not a factor.

Although the officers did not break the law, the chief said they didn't weigh the doctor's speeding against the immediate medical need.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Totally depends on the doctor's attitude. If she was acting like "I will have your job for this, I pay your salary", yea, take her to jail. But if she was like "Officer, I am sorry I was speeding, but I have a patient delivering a baby in the ER, I need to hurry up and get there" then no, she should have had an escort to the hospital.
I think this weighs right up there with that issue not too long ago where the officer either arrested or tried to arrest someone that was trying to get to the hospital to see their parent before they died.

The officers could have followed her into the hospital (since they arrested her there) and confirmed her story, then dealt with the rest in the aftermath of the birth. Heck, they could have even escorted her there. Hows this: 'since its a medical emergency, allow us to escort you to the hospital....'

Personally, it was very poor judgement on the officers part and I'm willing to bet that, had they involved the chief from the beginning, there would have been a different outcome at the hospital....

Jeepin'
The very minute that she identified herself as a physician responding to an emergency, give her a safe escort to the hospital, including calling it in and getting other units involved to control busy intersections. Public safety is a key component of law enforcement...I once saw Dr. Kelley jump on the back of a MSPD motorcycle to rush to the aid of a citizen having a heart attack. The doctor rode on the radio transmitter without a helmet on a no passenger motor...I guess the Lt. (officer) should have been ticketed for his obvious violations. Didn't happen, both the officer and the doctor were courageous and charged with no violations. The TN officers were wrong and should have contacted a shift supervisor because they were in over their heads.
There was a similar incident in DC a few years ago. A doctor was stopped for speeding. He explained he was a surgeon called in for emergency surgery for a shooting victim. The officer kept him by the side of the road for nearly a half an hour, before escorting him to the hospital. Upon arrival the police officer was arrested by his chief. The shooting victim was a police officer!
From what I read, it sounds as if the Dr. pulled away from a traffic stop when she felt she was ready to leave. The officers probably didn't know her from Adam's house cat. Her behavior put more people at risk including the officers. Chances are (after they confirmed her identity) they would've said "Please slow down" and let her continue on. She acted as if she were above the law. Granted, the officers didn't have to arrest her...but that's their choice. Do you let volunteer fireman drive however they want in the their personal vehicle as they respond to a structure fire? There has to be accountability. The fact that race was brought into it only takes away from her credibility in my eyes. It's usually not a white/black issue...it's usually a "you were speeding and it's my job to ascertain why" issue. Again, it sounds as if she felt she was above the law and that possibly explains why the officers responded the way they did.
quote:
Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
From what I read, it sounds as if the Dr. pulled away from a traffic stop when she felt she was ready to leave. The officers probably didn't know her from Adam's house cat. Her behavior put more people at risk including the officers. Chances are (after they confirmed her identity) they would've said "Please slow down" and let her continue on. She acted as if she were above the law. Granted, the officers didn't have to arrest her...but that's their choice. Do you let volunteer fireman drive however they want in the their personal vehicle as they respond to a structure fire? There has to be accountability. The fact that race was brought into it only takes away from her credibility in my eyes. It's usually not a white/black issue...it's usually a "you were speeding and it's my job to ascertain why" issue. Again, it sounds as if she felt she was above the law and that possibly explains why the officers responded the way they did.


Volunteer firemen responding to a legitimate fire call or other rescue call get the break in my book...they are "First Responders".

We need to look at the viability of issuing doctors, VFD and other first responders a windshield sticker that immediately identifies them to officers. The state/common wealth of Kentucky, which relies heavily on VFD, issues their fire fighters a RED magnetic bubble light for car top or dash, but you'd better be headed for a fire if you are running code.
Life or death medical intervention trumps traffic violations...help the doctor get there with an escort...could be your wife or child he's racing to save. Medical personnel don't drive fast as thrill seekers, they are on a mission. I believe doctors and first responders, responding to emergency situations are operating at an elevated state of awareness and are not nearly the same threat as some of those on cell phones. Your mission is to serve and protect, traffic tickets constitutes a small portion of that duty. I would guess that the incidence of this kind of emergency run doesn't happen all that often...the exception, not the rule.
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
Life or death medical intervention trumps traffic violations...help the doctor get there with an escort...could be your wife or child he's racing to save. Medical personnel don't drive fast as thrill seekers, they are on a mission. I believe doctors and first responders, responding to emergency situations are operating at an elevated state of awareness and are not nearly the same threat as some of those on cell phones. Your mission is to serve and protect, traffic tickets constitutes a small portion of that duty. I would guess that the incidence of this kind of emergency run doesn't happen all that often...the exception, not the rule.



You are 100% correct.

Here is an article that explains it better.

Seems the arresting cop is a hot head with a pending civil rights violation case against him to go along with this dumb ass move.
A pending complaint doesn't make him a hot head. You get complaints in law enforcement...it happens. The article that you posted is extremely vague when it comes to the facts about the fight call.

Sheldivr,

I definitely understand your view on this but the potential for abuse is extremely high. How many emergencies do medical personnel respond to each day? Most hospitals have physicians on duty that can keep the patient stable until whomever arrives. If she can speed...do we look past traffic control devices as well? It's a slippery slope. The whole "it could be your wife or child" pulls the old heart strings but it's just not safe. Well trained officers get tunnel vision responding to calls. A doctor with no defensive driving training is a accident waiting to happen. I could understand a police escort in extreme cases but not for delivering a child.
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
Life or death medical intervention trumps traffic violations...help the doctor get there with an escort...could be your wife or child he's racing to save. Medical personnel don't drive fast as thrill seekers, they are on a mission. I believe doctors and first responders, responding to emergency situations are operating at an elevated state of awareness and are not nearly the same threat as some of those on cell phones. Your mission is to serve and protect, traffic tickets constitutes a small portion of that duty. I would guess that the incidence of this kind of emergency run doesn't happen all that often...the exception, not the rule.


"Escorts" open officers and departments up to complete civil and criminal liability. Taking a chance on getting an innocent motorist killed by escorting a doctor responding to the hospital is absolutely asinine, and can and has ended badly. If the doctor has to get there that fast, put him in the cop car and drive him there.

Most (read that all the departments I've worked for) have policy against escorting non-emergency vehicles in violation of traffic laws. Actual emergency vehicles as designated by state law are held to the highest of standards...and are charged with operating the vehicle with due regard for the safety of all vehicles. Any officer that encourages and permits a non emergency vehicle to break the law is setting himself and his department up for lawsuit.

Some doctors don't drive fast for thrills, but by no stretch of the imagination can you accurately say that none of them do. And those with less experience and training are much more likely to succumb to "tunnel vision" and be involved in a crash than those who have had EVOC training.

I've stopped numerous doctors over the years. Very few ever failed to make mention they were doctors, some claimed to be en route to a call, but upon a few questions, I found that most were just using their status to try to get out of tickets. Only one or two of the several dozen I've stopped were actually responding to a life threatening emergency.
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'


At most any intersection I've been to, a right turn on red, a U turn and another right turn gets you legally on your way. That would legally work at your 2 minute red light, in less than a quarter minute, without endangering anyone.

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.
quote:
Originally posted by Southern_Guy:
If she kills or injures one of your family members enroute to the hospital would you feel the same way?


If one of your family members died while their doctor was being held up by a Barney like this one would you feel the same?


Common sense has to play a part.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'


At most any intersection I've been to, a right turn on red, a U turn and another right turn gets you legally on your way. That would legally work at your 2 minute red light, in less than a quarter minute, without endangering anyone.

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


Big Grin...now thats funny right there...a u-turn... Big Grin
People, there are several keywords here:

The Doctor was SPEEDING.
The Doctor DROVE OFF after being stopped for SPEEDING.
The Doctor said it was an EMERGENCY to DELIVER a baby.

The need for SPEED? Was the Doctor headed for some shack in the backwoods to home deliver?
OR! Was the Doctor headed for a Hospital, which as far as I can remember (3 kids) has someone there that can handle the job. At least until the Doctor gets there. Of course, our 3 kids never "came out" as fast as "greased lightnin'.

DROVE OFF??? Uh...No...you just don't do that.
At least, not in this situation.
Contrary to what most of you apprently believe, most hospitals, especially in rural (and we are considered rural) areas DO NOT readily have someone available to take care of some things. In some instances there may be an ER physician in house, but he may be tied up and cannot make it to a precipitous deliver. There may be a car crash and the OR needs the services of the on call anesthesiologist, or the pathologist, or an additioanl surgeon, none of which may be in house but perform specialized duties.
If it requires the essential medical personel to travel 46 mph in a 30 mph zone to get there in the time of need, there needs to be an exception. Too many times we see people who have a little authority take it to the extreme, and that goes for cops, doctors, judges, etc. For some reason or another they get an ego boost out of causing a commotion. I think there is probably blame on both parts in this story, however the police should have followed up on her story, and if indeed she had lied they should ticket her, but detaining someone when they tell you they are needed in an emergency is just assinine.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'


At most any intersection I've been to, a right turn on red, a U turn and another right turn gets you legally on your way. That would legally work at your 2 minute red light, in less than a quarter minute, without endangering anyone.

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


Sassy,

It may be different in AL, but I was pulled over once in TN for cutting across a parking lot after turning right on red to skip a light (I turned right on red, then immidiately turned left into a parking lot, a grocery store I think, then pulled back out onto the main road I was originally on on the other side of the light). The officer gave me a warning ticket for something along the lines of avoiding a traffic control device (I dont remember the exact wording).

I know its a bit off subject, I was just curious about whether there was a law in Alabama similiar to that....

Jeepin'
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


I think there is a big difference between safely and legally. I know lots of 30 MPH zones that are 4 lane, they are 30 because they go through the middle of some hick town, and you could easily run 46 MPH or MORE and still do it safely. I know lots of red lights that you could treat as a stop sign safely most of the time (lots of them were put in place for a certain hour of the day when traffic is horrible busy, the rest of the time its useless). I could run 90+ MPH on the interstate and do it safely most of the time (I say that because traffic may be the exception).

All the above are far from legal, but in no way makes them unsafe. So my only question would be was the Dr. driving safely while speeding or was she recklessly flying through a school zone, high traffic area, etc?

Jeepin'
quote:
Originally posted by WH:
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'


At most any intersection I've been to, a right turn on red, a U turn and another right turn gets you legally on your way. That would legally work at your 2 minute red light, in less than a quarter minute, without endangering anyone.

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


Big Grin...now thats funny right there...a u-turn... Big Grin


Why? U turns are legal in Alabama, as long as it can be done in safety and does not interfere with other traffic. Some municipalities prohibit U turns, but are required to have signage to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
Wow, 46 in a 30. She was flying, I tell you what Roll Eyes Jeez! You gotta be kidding me.

As for other 'traffic devices,' I have a red light by my house that stays red for 2 minutes no matter if something is coming or not (its on a 2 minute timer 24 hours a day). Would you like the Dr that is giving birth to your loved ones child to sit at that red light for 2 minutes, with nothing coming for miles either way, just because it is red? Or should they stop, check traffic, then travel on? No offense, but Im for them running the light. Two minutes can be life or death on an operating table or in L&D....

Jeepin'


At most any intersection I've been to, a right turn on red, a U turn and another right turn gets you legally on your way. That would legally work at your 2 minute red light, in less than a quarter minute, without endangering anyone.

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


Sassy,

It may be different in AL, but I was pulled over once in TN for cutting across a parking lot after turning right on red to skip a light (I turned right on red, then immidiately turned left into a parking lot, a grocery store I think, then pulled back out onto the main road I was originally on on the other side of the light). The officer gave me a warning ticket for something along the lines of avoiding a traffic control device (I dont remember the exact wording).

I know its a bit off subject, I was just curious about whether there was a law in Alabama similiar to that....

Jeepin'


Heard that urban legend in Alabama when I first got into law enforcement. No less than my first captain instructed me that a particular business was complaining about people cutting through the parking lot to get away from a red light. The captain told me to write some tickets there. When I asked him what code to use, he couldn't find it in either the municipal code book or the state code. He finally told me to just sit in the parking lot and be visible.

Alabama has no law prohibiting cutting through private property to avoid a traffic control device. If you drive in such a manner to endanger or to be likely to endanger any person, while cutting through a parking lot, you could be cited for reckless driving.
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:

Its impossible for me to belive or accept that any hospital in today's age doesn't have some doctor on staff and on duty at the facility that can handle any medical situation until a specialist can safely arrive to take over.


I think there is a big difference between safely and legally. I know lots of 30 MPH zones that are 4 lane, they are 30 because they go through the middle of some hick town, and you could easily run 46 MPH or MORE and still do it safely. I know lots of red lights that you could treat as a stop sign safely most of the time (lots of them were put in place for a certain hour of the day when traffic is horrible busy, the rest of the time its useless). I could run 90+ MPH on the interstate and do it safely most of the time (I say that because traffic may be the exception).

All the above are far from legal, but in no way makes them unsafe. So my only question would be was the Dr. driving safely while speeding or was she recklessly flying through a school zone, high traffic area, etc?

Jeepin'


Speed limits on streets are supposed to have been engineered to allow traffic to proceed at the maximum safe speed for the area, taking all factors into consideration. If it was actually safe for someone to do 40 instead of 30, then the speed limit should be raised.

Also, other drivers in the area may not realize that an unmarked private car with no authorization to exceed the speed limit is speeding, and pull out in front of that vehicle. That's why cop cars, ambulances and fire trucks are required to have lights and sirens operating before exceeding speed limits or violating other traffic laws. No non-emergency vehicle should be unilaterally allowed to violated the law without consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:

Also, other drivers in the area may not realize that an unmarked private car with no authorization to exceed the speed limit is speeding, and pull out in front of that vehicle. That's why cop cars, ambulances and fire trucks are required to have lights and sirens operating before exceeding speed limits or violating other traffic laws. No non-emergency vehicle should be unilaterally allowed to violated the law without consequences.


If thats the case, then why are interstates in some states limited to 70, some 65, some 75, some 80 (http://www.iihs.org/laws/speedlimits.aspx)? I understand some stretches cannot support 80 (hills, curves, etc), but why are there different top limits for each state if it is just an issue of 'safety'? Is it any safer to drive faster just because you cross the state line?

As for non emergency vehicles, my father in law is a first responder, he uses my mother in laws vehicle from time to time to respond to calls. It does not have strobes or sirens. But he is trained to drive code, so that may be the difference. However, Im sure the Dr, in her hurry to get there, was paying close enough attention to watch for other drivers. I think her situation is different than your average joe speeding to work, distracted by things like radios, cell phones, etc.....
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
Heard that urban legend in Alabama when I first got into law enforcement. No less than my first captain instructed me that a particular business was complaining about people cutting through the parking lot to get away from a red light. The captain told me to write some tickets there. When I asked him what code to use, he couldn't find it in either the municipal code book or the state code. He finally told me to just sit in the parking lot and be visible.

Alabama has no law prohibiting cutting through private property to avoid a traffic control device. If you drive in such a manner to endanger or to be likely to endanger any person, while cutting through a parking lot, you could be cited for reckless driving.


I wonder if its an urban legend in TN and thats why he didnt write me an actual ticket.....
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:

Also, other drivers in the area may not realize that an unmarked private car with no authorization to exceed the speed limit is speeding, and pull out in front of that vehicle. That's why cop cars, ambulances and fire trucks are required to have lights and sirens operating before exceeding speed limits or violating other traffic laws. No non-emergency vehicle should be unilaterally allowed to violated the law without consequences.


If thats the case, then why are interstates in some states limited to 70, some 65, some 75, some 80 (http://www.iihs.org/laws/speedlimits.aspx)? I understand some stretches cannot support 80 (hills, curves, etc), but why are there different top limits for each state if it is just an issue of 'safety'? Is it any safer to drive faster just because you cross the state line?

As for non emergency vehicles, my father in law is a first responder, he uses my mother in laws vehicle from time to time to respond to calls. It does not have strobes or sirens. But he is trained to drive code, so that may be the difference. However, Im sure the Dr, in her hurry to get there, was paying close enough attention to watch for other drivers. I think her situation is different than your average joe speeding to work, distracted by things like radios, cell phones, etc.....


Because of different environmental and traffic issues. Some may be posted at a lower speed because the road tends to hold water after a rain (such as 72 in Limestone Co.), or because the highway becomes extremely congested several times a day because of work traffic. Highway speed engineering is based on a lot of factors, such as average speed, number of vehicles traveling the area, number and severity of crashes, visibility, environment, terrain...and several more.

In Alabama (been too many years since I worked in TN) no driver has authority to exceed the posted limits unless you have a vehicle that is designated as an authorized emergency vehicle, and that vehicle is equipped with red or blue lights, or a combination of red/blue lights and an audible siren. Don't matter if you're a first responder, the Pope, or the Major over the Troopers...if you don't have the equipment, you're not legal speeding.

Doctors are human too. They have cell phones. You can't be certain she was paying attention, or that she doesn't talk on a cell phone while driving. I don't know that she was, but I suspect she's not the saint of goodness you'd like to believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
Heard that urban legend in Alabama when I first got into law enforcement. No less than my first captain instructed me that a particular business was complaining about people cutting through the parking lot to get away from a red light. The captain told me to write some tickets there. When I asked him what code to use, he couldn't find it in either the municipal code book or the state code. He finally told me to just sit in the parking lot and be visible.

Alabama has no law prohibiting cutting through private property to avoid a traffic control device. If you drive in such a manner to endanger or to be likely to endanger any person, while cutting through a parking lot, you could be cited for reckless driving.


I wonder if its an urban legend in TN and thats why he didnt write me an actual ticket.....


Probably had the same captain as me Big Grin
I guess it makes too much sense for the Doctor to call 911. All she had to do was advise Law Enforcement that she was driving whatever vehicle,tag no, with emergency flashers on, and headed to a medical emergency. The agencies are then advised she is coming and there won't be a flagrant speeder driving by. No that doesn't make her immune to the law but it doesn't make fools out of these officers if they know what is going on. Then, when she passes these officers and pulls into a place of business as opposed to what she said she was doing, burn her azz.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×