The Beginning Of The Creation

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Need I say more? ALL SCRIPTURE is authored by God.


I thought it was Moses who wrote Genesis. Paul wrote one or three books. How about David. Are you saying what we have been taught all these years is wrong? That God Personally penned those books or did MEN pen those books under the inspiration of God?

In Genesis 1, it says that "Man was created after the other animals." But in Genesis 2, man was created before the other animals.

How can both be 100% without error, Bill?

Numbers says "There died of the plague twenty-four thousand." the Corinthians says "There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand."

Was it 24 or 23? Did God make a mistake or did the author of the bible make one?

This is just one of thousands of other blatant contradictions in the bible caused by "transcription errors" when MAN wrote the words.

For you to sit there and state there are absolutely no errors is really kind of dumb when any good can find blatant contradictions like this all over the place.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

In the Rapture, Jesus Christ does not come with great fanfare -- but, like a thief in the night, when no one is expecting Him. This is why He tells us to be ready at all times.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- He most certainly is coming back in power and glory -- the Lion of Judah.

This is what Matthew 24 is describing -- His Second Coming in power and glory. There is no other way to look at it.

Sure, you can demand a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath Rapture -- but, it is not supported by Scripture. The only End Times scenario supported by Scripture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a Pre-Millennial Return of Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Bill, There is most certainly another way to interpret Matthew 24 and it's called the "correct" way. Your so hung up on defending a pre-tribulation rapture position, which isn't backed by scripture and cannot be accepted without taking (or unless taking) scripture out of context, that you fail to reasonably consider another meaning for that scripture because that would refute your staunchly held belief that pre-tribulation is right. Fact is that it (pre-tribulation) is wrong and not supported by Scripture. What Scripture does support is a Rapture, before the Wrath of God is released upon the World but after Revelation 6, seals, which are not God's Wrath but foretelling of disastrous and horrendous events that will be visited upon mankind brought on by evil man and the antichrist.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NIV) 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

The Lord himself will come down from heaven .... with the trumpet call of God ... dead rise first ... we who are alive caught up .. as in up away from earth as IN THE AIR .

Matthew 24:30-31 (NIV) 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Verse 30 ... appear "in the sky" .... Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky (that's in the air) ... vs 31 .. send his angels (agents of God to gather .. as in catch up as in assist the Rapture of the saints .. and note from vs 31 AND 1 Thes 4:16 with a loud trumpet call. Note 1 Thes 4:16 says Trumpet call of God ... vs 31 says the angels with a loud trumpet call .. that's the trumpet call of God and angels are the messengers of God just as it is Angels that will bring God's Wrath in Revelation.

Bill ... rewrite and take scripture out of context all you want to prove a point that you can't scripturally support but that doesn't make it right or correct. There is nothing at all in these scriptures that voids that the Rapture comes without warning at a time when people think not. That also doesn't preclude that there will be signs to warn or signal to the Believers, that are alive then, that the coming of the Lord and the Rapture is "at hand". Not the day and hour but that the season has come. Just as Christ own example
Matthew 24:32-33 (NIV) 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Again 1 Thessalonians 5:4 fits right in ... You Brothers are not in darkness.

Bill, your outright refusal to acknowledge this in the light of Scripture, in order to reinforce a theory or teaching that cannot be backed up by Scripture, called Pre-Tribulation is confusing given that you seem to be well studied and I would assume would continue to do so and would want to. I know you have all the tools and understanding necessary to comprehend this and I think if you seriously consider these points in the whole context of scripture without starting from the basis of defending a doctrine that you and many others hold so dear to their heart, a doctrine that has been taught and entrenched in protestant churches over the last 175 years but literally void in the light of Scripture.

It is the same type teachings (same as pre-tribulation) that lead to the need for Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (NIV) 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

People were unsettled that maybe they missed the Rapture and that Christ had already come, leaving them behind in a Rapture that would occur without notice or any idea when it would happen. Note that there are signs that precede the time that Christ comes for his Church in the Rapture and it will also not occur until the man of lawlessness is revealed. This when the abomination of desolation happens which according to pre-trib folks, that happens after the rapture when the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2 plainly says it (the rapture) will happen after the abomination of desolation, between Revelation 6 and Revelation 8 or more specifically shown to occur in Revelation 7:9.

Frankly Bill, I don't see any other way that these verses can be taken other than taking them out of their context and fashioning them, in a figuratively way, to meet ones own beliefs.
GBRK,

Two things:

#1, at risk of coming to Bill's defense on anything, the pre-trib most certainly is supported by scripture. Just not by your interpretation of it.

I don't support that silliness either but there are many who claim it. Who am I to deny their belief? The definition of faith is, after all, belief in the absence of evidence.

#2 ANYTHING can be supported by scripture. Example: What does the bible have to say about abortion? Everyone claims this as a religious stance but I see an astounding lack of scriptural support for the notion.

Dale
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
GBRK,

Two things:

#1, at risk of coming to Bill's defense on anything, the pre-trib most certainly is supported by scripture. Just not by your interpretation of it.

I don't support that silliness either but there are many who claim it. Who am I to deny their belief? The definition of faith is, after all, belief in the absence of evidence.

#2 ANYTHING can be supported by scripture. Example: What does the bible have to say about abortion? Everyone claims this as a religious stance but I see an astounding lack of scriptural support for the notion.

Dale


Point made and evident that Scripture is interpreted in many ways however, being a former student and advocate of the pre-tribulation position, I'm well aware of the arguments or scriptures used to attempt to point to a pre-tribulation rapture. Again I also am aware that many don't accept that there is a rapture at all and that to comes from their reading of scripture and their own interpretation.

Any advocate for the pre-tribulation position I encourage to write down the points for that position and the scriptures that are used to back up those points. Likewise, prayerfully, consider the scriptures and points that I have put forth regarding the Olivet Discourse compared side by side to Revelation 6. Also consider 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 & 5 studying the context and to whom the scripture is written. Last, and a point that I keep repeating, is regarding the Olivet Discourse. One has to answer or rationalize why Christ would leave out, all together, the Rapture of the Church in his laying out of end time events to the disciples who requested of him to know what will occur and when and how. With the Rapture being the "blessed hope" the hope of being raptured to be with Christ at his future coming it is inconceivable that Christ would completely remain mute regarding it. The Rapture was a very important topic to the churches and gentile believers or any believers and mentioned in Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians. I'm just asking prayerful consideration and re-reading the scriptures with regards to my statements that the pre-tribulation position not being scriptural I am saying it isn't based on a "literal" reading. In order to make it (pre-trib timing) fit then much scripture has to be regarded as figuratively and in many cases is just taken out of the context it's in so to make it fit a position.

I know my position is in a minority and often this is a very ultra contentious debate however I'm very certain that it's important to look at it in the light of scripture.

Just as I requested of Bill I'm more than willing to consider any scriptural reference to reinforce or back up a pre-tribulation rapture so respectfully if you could cite what scriptures you are thinking about and the point that they are supporting I would be more than happy to look at it and study it and respond in kind.

I do appreciate your response and even welcome it as well as Bill's even though I disagree. I think it's important though that every Christian know why they believe and what they believe and reconcile that themselves through their own studies. Likewise be able to eliminate all other or discount all other views and opinions.

One other request, IF I am incorrect in my application and interpretation of the scriptures I use then with regards to the Rapture, and also realizing that the scriptures work together and parallel each other I'd enjoy hearing. I'm well aware of the pre-trib scriptures but since scripture can and is interpreted differently by different people please expound upon the following:

1 Thessalonians 5:4 (who is this verse directed to? Who are the ones not in darkness that the day takes them as a thief in the night? Is this not the same "darkness" or "thief in the night" example as used prior to it in 1 Thessalonians 5:2?

Revelation 6 and the 6 seals (God's wrath?)

Matthew 24 with regards to the Pre-Trib timing of the Rapture. If it's not mentioned, by Christ, as part of "end times" then why would it not be?

Anywhere in Scripture that Christ, himself, specifically gives instructions on the timing of the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 ... what is "the gathering together"

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