The Beginning Of The Creation

quote:

Of course, we know that our recently reincarnated resident atheist will tell us that Dr. Morris was stupid and was not really a scientist. Yet, he did have his Ph.D. in a technical and scientific field -- and he spent a life time declaring the truths found in our Bible.

This is just a post to start an arguement, if you really wanted to teach or something you would have left off that paragraph. Leave it off and it invites discussion, with it in, you're just challenging Deep to a fight.The computer equivalent of "Knock this stick off my shoulder, I dare you."

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,

13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?

quote:

Originally posted by kodachi:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Of course, we know that our recently reincarnated resident atheist will tell us that Dr. Morris was stupid and was not really a scientist. Yet, he did have his Ph.D. in a technical and scientific field -- and he spent a life time declaring the truths found in our Bible.

This is just a post to start an argument, if you really wanted to teach or something you would have left off that paragraph. Leave it off and it invites discussion, with it in, you're just challenging Deep to a fight. The computer equivalent of "Knock this stick off my shoulder, I dare you."

Hi Kodachi,

While I truly was not seeking an argument with my Friend, Deep -- you are right that it would have been better to have deleted that statement -- or to have rephrased it. I should not have written it that way -- and I apologize to Deep and all my Religion Forum Friends.

The only excuse (and excuses are never acceptable) I might even have for having written it that way is: (1) It was in the wee hours of the morning, like 4:30 AM, and I wrote this just as I was getting ready for bed, and (2) I had in mind what my Friend, Deep, has so often done on the Religion Forum in his fervent attempts to silence any and all references to scientists who believe in Creation -- deny and invalidate their credentials -- especially Dr. Morris.

Dr. Henry M. Morris, a recognized and respected engineer and scientist, as well as being highly regarded in the Christian community -- helped found the Creation Research Society in 1963. And, in 1970, he founded and led The Institute For Creation Research until his relatively recent death.

For all my Forum Friends who are interested, The Institute For Creation Research publishes a high quality, well written monthly magazine titled Acts & Facts. And, it is mailed to anyone who requests a subscription -- FREE.

Visit their web site: http://www.icr.org and scroll to the bottom. Click on Subscriptions and you can request a FREE subscription to this fantastic magazine. Besides being one of the most informative magazines I read -- it is so well done that you will want to display it on your coffee table in the living room. It makes a great Coffee Table Magazine.

On their web site, you can read Recent News articles such as the current list:

* Evolution and Global Warming Link as Theories, Not Science, in Kentucky Bill
* Bacteria Share Metabolism through Nanowires
* Small Dogs Came from the Middle East
* Mystery Fossil Study Fits Creation
* Did Religion 'Emerge' through Evolution?

Or, you may visit the web site: http://www.icr.org/aaf and read the Acts & Facts magazine on line. Either way, you will find it exciting and it will strengthen your walk with the Lord -- and make you a more knowledgeable Christian believer.

Just for the record, so that no one may discredit the writings of Dr. Henry M. Morris -- this is a list of some of his books and videos:

* The Genesis Record: A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Genesis
* Men of Science Men of God: Great Scientists of the Past Who Believed the Bible
* Scientific Creationism
* Many Infallible Proofs: Evidences for the Christian Faith
* The Biblical Basis for Modern Science
* The Bible Has the Answer 99 copies
* The Long War Against God: The History and Impact of the Creation/Evolution…
* What Is Creation Science
* Twilight of Evolution
* Science and The Bible
* Biblical Creationism: What Each Book of the Bible Teaches About Creation…
* The Revelation Record: A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the…
* Remarkable Record of Job: The Ancient Wisdom, Scientific Accuracy, and…
* The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth
* Evolution and the Modern Christian
* The Bible and Modern Science
* Some Call It Science: The Religion of Evolution
* The Beginning of the World: A Scientific Study of Genesis 1-11
* The God Who Is Real: A Creationist Approach to Evangelism and Missions
* Creation and the Modern Christian
* The Modern Creation Trilogy: Scripture and Creation, Science and Creation,…
* The troubled waters of evolution
* The Remarkable Wisdom of Solomon
* Exploring the Evidence for Creation
* Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science
* STUDIES IN THE BIBLE AND SCIENCE or Christ and Creation
* That Their Words May Be Used Against Them
* The defender's study Bible : King James Version
* A Symposium on Creation
* The Remarkable Journey of Jonah: A Scholarly, Conservative Study of His…
* Creation: acts, facts, impacts
* A History of Modern Creationism
* Scientific Case for Creation
* Creation and Its Critics
* God and the Nations: What the Bible Has to Say About Civilizations-Past…
* Sampling the Psalms: A Scientific & Devotional Study of Selected Psalms
* Christian Education for the Real World
* Education for the Real World
* Creation and the Second Coming
* For Time And Forever
* That You Might Believe
* King of Creation
* Science, Scripture, and Salvation
* Decade of Creation
* Baptism: How important is it?
* Days to Remember: Devotions for the Holidays Throughout the Year
* When Christians Roamed the Earth
* Treasures in the Psalms 7 copies
* Explore the word! 7 copies
* Science and creation: a handbook for teachers
* A Biblical Manual On Science and Creation
* Miracles: Do They Still Happen? Why Do We Believe in Them
* SCIENCE, SCRIPTURE AND THE YOUNG EARTH
* 101 Signs of Design: Timeless Truths from the Word
* Bible Science and Creation:
* Evolution in Turmoil
* Twenty-One Scientists Who Believe in Creation
* The Origin of Earth and Its People: Studies in Genesis
* Introducing Scientific Creationism Into The Public Schools
* After Eden: Understanding Creation, the Curse, and the Cross
* Biblical Catastrophism and Geology
* The Age of the Earth (video)
* The Battle for Creation: Acts/Facts/Impacts Vol. 2
* Creation: The Cutting Edge
* Record Scientific Genesis Devotional
* Introduction To Biblical Creationism
* Days of Praise
* Pulling Down Strongholds: Achieving Spiritual Victory through Strategic…
* Genesis Record, The
* Genesis Flood, The
* The Seminary Review The Bible and Modern Science Chronology and Geological…
* Dark History of Evolution (video)
* And God Created (Volume 4)
* The Scientific Case Against Evolution
* Scripture and Creation: The Modern Creation Trilogy, Vol 1
* Society and Creation: The Modern Creation Trilogy, Vol. 3
* Symposium on Creation
* The Tragic Fruits of Darwinism
* The Genesis Flood (video)

Yes, this is definitely the works of a man who knew science and who knew God -- and through his great knowledge, you and I can become better witnesses for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Thank you for your reply Mr. Gray, I've read your replies for years, and I know you are capable of very eloquent posts. It seems you might have gotten a little excited At Deepfat's return.

Respectfully I post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris

According to this Dr. Morris graduated from Rice with a degree in civil engineering and University of Minn. with a PHD in hydraulic engineering. I work with hydraulics everyday and I respect a man who knows enough about it to have a doctorate. But how does this make him an expert on debunking evolutionary theory and establishing that creationalism was the way it happened? The man is (was) an engineer not a scientist.

I don't post much so I don't know if this link will be active or not but you can google the name. I also know that some folks don't look at Wiki as a good source, but I've always found them to be fairly dependable.

quote:

Originally posted by kodachi:
hank you for your reply Mr. Gray, I've read your replies for years, and I know you are capable of very eloquent posts. It seems you might have gotten a little excited at Deepfat's return.

Respectfully I post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris

According to this Dr. Morris graduated from Rice with a degree in civil engineering and University of Minn. with a Ph.D. in hydraulic engineering. I work with hydraulics everyday and I respect a man who knows enough about it to have a doctorate. But how does this make him an expert on debunking evolutionary theory and establishing that creationism was the way it happened? The man is (was) an engineer not a scientist.

I don't post much so I don't know if this link will be active or not but you can google the name. I also know that some folks don't look at Wiki as a good source, but I've always found them to be fairly dependable.

Hi Kodachi,

You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.

I might use myself as an example. I have not attended seminary; however, I have spent over twenty years studying eschatology -- so, I feel comfortable leading a Bible study or writing about eschatology. I spent four years developing a set of eschatology charts which I use in leading Bible studies. I will be happy to e-mail them to anyone who asks. I also have several PowerPoint presentations on the End Times that I will share with anyone who wants them.

Dr. Morris spent more than fifty years learning, writing, and teaching about God. So, I would put this on top of his Ph.d. in Engineering and say that he was well grounded in science/engineering and in the knowledge of the Bible. I have some of his books -- and, one day, would love to have all his writings in my personal library.

By the way, I am not just happy to see Deep back on the Religion Forum -- I am delighted! Over the past three years, since his writings lured me to the forums -- he has given me many good platforms from which to share the Gospel. One cannot row against the tide -- in a still river. Deep is my faithful tide. Sorry, Deep, I know you are an Auburn fan. Maybe I should change that to "my faithful current" -- which I row against.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Friends do not let friends read the ICR website sober.

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Friends do not let friends read the ICR website sober.

Hi Neal,

I know you follow Liberal Theology teachings; but, even liberals believe in God and Creation. Have you changed your allegiance away from God?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.

So this man has had no formal training in seminary and that his religous training is more or less self taught? Just because he's well educated about some things doesn't mean he can't be in the opposite direction on something else, and reach conclusions that are not intended.

It's like someone claiming to be a Shaolin monk because they've studied all the episodes of Kung Fu. Self teaching is as dangerous as self medicating.

quote:

Originally posted by Rancid Apple:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,

13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?

Apple,

Bill screws up everything. He is insane. Every wee thing he posits as fact is just the opposite of that thing, the fact.

Apple, you should know that Bill thinks the world is 6000 years old and that a flood encompassed the world some 4500 years ago, give or take a few hundred years.

It would not impress him at all to know that the Chinese have a written history of about 7000 years, and no mention of a catastrophic flood.

This is because facts mean nothing to fundamentalists, of whom Bill is a sterling, if extraordinary, example.

All we can do is alert the normally intelligent against these morons and try to move on.


DF

quote:

Originally posted by kodachi:

quote:

You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.

So this man has had no formal training in seminary and that his religous training is more or less self taught? Just because he's well educated about some things doesn't mean he can't be in the opposite direction on something else, and reach conclusions that are not intended.

It's like someone claiming to be a Shaolin monk because they've studied all the episodes of Kung Fu. Self teaching is as dangerous as self medicating.

Hi Kodachi,

I did not say that Dr. Morris does not have any seminary training -- only that I am not aware of it.

But, his body of work speaks volumes about his credentials and abilities to teach about the Bible. I have yet to find anyone, other than an atheist, who questions Dr. Morris' credentials.

And the fact that he does have a Ph.D. in a technical/engineering/science field -- does add great credibility also.

You may choose to discount his works because his degree is not in the particular field of science you want -- but, as for me, I will continue to study his writings. For, I find them exceptional.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

I'm sure the man is very intelligent and I can tell you repect his work. However the engineering/technical/science field that he's had all his formal training does not include advanced degrees of biology or medicine. I am just wary of people who are "self taught" about things as important as this. I mean he could not have achieved all of his advanced technical and engineering degrees in hydraulics by just studying and reading on his own. He had to go to school.

I would think that if you're going to use this guy as an example of a evolution vs, creationist scientist, and use his degrees to make a point. He should have degrees in the appropriate fields.

I wouldn't want to be in a building that was desingned by a structural engineer who was self taught.

That's my feeling on it, at least. I'm sorry if you think I'm coming back to this point so much.

quote:

Originally posted by kodachi:
I'm sure the man is very intelligent and I can tell you respect his work. However the engineering/technical/science field that he's had all his formal training does not include advanced degrees of biology or medicine. I am just wary of people who are "self taught" about things as important as this. I mean he could not have achieved all of his advanced technical and engineering degrees in hydraulics by just studying and reading on his own. He had to go to school. I would think that if you're going to use this guy as an example of a evolution vs, creationist scientist, and use his degrees to make a point. He should have degrees in the appropriate fields. I wouldn't want to be in a building that was designed by a structural engineer who was self taught. That's my feeling on it, at least. I'm sorry if you think I'm coming back to this point so much.

Hi Kodachi,

If Dr. Henry Morris, were he still alive, or his son, also Dr. Henry Morris, Jr. -- were to tell you about the Bible, Creation, and salvation -- would you refuse to listen to them BECAUSE they do not have a degree in astronomy, biology, or any other of the life science fields? If Dr. Morris, Sr., had told you that he had studied, taught, and wrote about the Bible and Christianity for fifty years -- you would still walk away -- because he does not have a Ph.D. from a seminary, or in a science field you acknowledge?

Let me tell you a story about two Muslim brothers. Ergun and Emir Caner came to America as teenagers; their father a leader in the Muslim religion. They were part of a devout Muslim family living in the midwest. While in high school, Ergun became friends with an American -- who was a Christian, a Baptist. The friend constantly invited Ergun to attend church with him. Finally, the friend wore him down and Ergun went to the small Baptist church with his friend.

What Ergun found was a small Baptist church with a pastor who only had an eighth grade education -- but, he preached good sermons, sermons full of the love of God. And the people in the church welcomed Ergun with open arms, showing Christian love to this Muslim teenager. Out of curiosity, Ergun continued to attend church with his friend -- until one day, he felt the tugging of the Holy Spirit upon his heart. Ergun went forward and invited Jesus Christ to come into his heart and be his Lord and Savior.

Later, Ergun would tell people that this pastor, this church, "Loved him all the way to the cross." Yet, this pastor did not have a degree from a seminary; he did not even have a high school diploma. But, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he led this young Muslim boy into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ergun then brought his brother, Emir, to church -- and to make a long story short -- Emir became a born again Christian believer.

Both went on to get their Ph.D. and today, Dr. Ergun Caner is president of Liberty University Seminary in Virginia. And, his brother, Dr. Emir Caner, became the founding Dean of The College at Southwestern, Director of the Center for Free Church Studies and Professor of History at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, and remained there until he accepted the call of Truett-McConnell College to become its eighth president in August 2008.

Kodachi, by your reasoning, both of the men should have walked away from that uneducated Baptist pastor in that small Baptist church. After all, he only had an eighth grade education. What could he teach these two young teenage Muslim boys? Enough to put them on the road to what they are today.

You are correct that if I want to have a building designed and built; I would go to those who have the training and knowledge. However, that is not always found in institutions of higher learning.

In 1963, I took a position in a company named Ramo Wooldridge (now called TRW). A small group of us went there to set up a lab for testing the first military spec mini-computer, the AN/YUK-1 computer. In the area where we were setting up our lab for testing these computers; there was a microwave lab which was being phased out. A young kid, only 18 years old, was the last microwave engineer left to phase out that lab. Once that was done, he came into our department to work on computers -- a totally different field for him. Yet, he quickly became very proficient -- to the point that our boss was afraid to leave him alone in the lab -- for fear that he would redesign the computer.

After he had been with us less than two weeks, as our boss was walking through the lab, the kid called him, "Gil, let me show you what I have" -- he pressed a button and the computer began to speak, "Hello, I am an AN/YUK-1 mini-computer." I thought our boss, Gil, would have a heart attack. He screamed at the kid, "Take it out! Take it out!" The kid told him, "Gil, it is only software. I did no hardware changes."

Gil replied, in a panic, "I don't care! Take it out!" This was long before computers could talk.

This was also before there were any mobile telephones in cars. A couple of months later, we went on a coffee break and the kid asked me to follow him to his car. He picked up a telephone in his car and called a friend who was still in the building. I was amazed -- this was over forty years before wireless phones. He opened the trunk of his car -- and it was jammed with electronic equipment. He and a friend built it; then went up on Mt. Wilson late at night and hid an antennae there. He could call from his car and it would appear that he was calling from his home telephone.

Later that year, the kid got married and he and his bride moved into an apartment. From their second story window, they could see the screen of a drive-in movie. At work the kid showed me a small electronic transmitter frozen in epoxy, about an inch square. This was before miniaturization of electronics. The kid went to the back row of the drive-in movie, took a speaker apart -- and planted his miniature transmitter in it. After that, he and his bride could sit in their living room window and watch, and hear, the movies -- for free. Remember, this was 1963.

I asked the kid, still only 19, why he did not go to an engineering college and get his degree. His answer, "I already know more that most engineers. Why should I waste four years learning what I already know?" And, I had to agree with him.

A year after joining our department, and after many near heart attacks with our boss -- the kid left and took a position designing special effects equipment for a major television network in Los Angeles. I would venture to say that many of the innovations in television which we have enjoyed over the years - came from the brain of this kid.

One last story: In the late 1960s, I was selling computers for Digital Equipment Corporation in Palo Alto, California. We all got a chuckle when we received a letter from an apparently illiterate man telling us that he wanted to buy a computer for his son. At that time, the lowest cost computer one could buy was the PDP-8S which sold for $10,000 -- with no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse, etc. -- just the bare box.

As it turned out, the man was an illiterate black farmer in San Jose and his son was a high school senior. The son was in the process of designing the first Digital Video Recorder (as a high school senior) and was racing with Ampex Corporation to finish his design and get a patent before Ampex beat him to it. His father sold one of his houses to buy the computer for his son; so that the son could use it to do his design calculations.

Why am I telling you these stories? Because, by your logic, you would have walked away from that Baptist pastor and the Christian world would not have the Caner brothers teaching us today. You would have walked away from my young teenage friend who has most likely designed many of the television advances you enjoy today. You would have walked away from this black teenage boy who was instrumental in bringing us VCRs, etc.

Yes, you would not have listened to these people -- for they did not have a Ph.D. in the science field which you will recognize.

Personally, I feel honored to have known these people -- and I feel excited that we, the Christian world, have the multitude of books and teachings which came from the heart, mind, and soul of Dr. Henry M. Morris. If we do not learn from those who have gone before us, because we will not recognize their credentials -- we are only cheating ourselves.

Don't allow educational snobbery to rob you of such great treasures.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

[Hi Kodachi,

If Dr. Henry Morris, were he still alive, or his son, also Dr. Henry Morris, Jr. -- were to tell you about the Bible, Creation, and salvation -- would you refuse to listen to them BECAUSE they do not have a degree in astronomy, biology, or any other of the life science fields? If Dr. Morris, Sr., had told you that he had studied, taught, and wrote about the Bible and Christianity for fifty years -- you would still walk away -- because he does not have a Ph.D. from a seminary, or in a science field you acknowledge[/quote]

Hi Bill,

You're right, I would still walk away, he's pushing something that controversial, he needs to have the training and diplomas to it back it up. Or I might stay and listen politely anyway, I've been accused in the past for being too polite, but they wouldn't convince me that the creationist theory is correct. I don't care how many engineers they throw at me.

You know for that reason right there maybe we should let this thread just die, I'm certainly not going to convince you that evolution and the big bang are the best theories out there now, you've got too much invested in the creationist way too change. It's just the same old thing. You can find this disscussion on a dozen other threads,

I'm sorry for the late reply, it's been a long day and i'm about to bring it to as end as soon as I get through posting this.

One last thing, you accusing anyone of "intelectual snobbery" is kinda ironic Dontcha think. Physician heal thyself.

quote:

Originally posted by Rancid Apple:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,

13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?

That is not a basic fact. It is a best guess by some scientists. Something I never thought of before until now; maybe the earth dates as old as it does because it came from God. God is written in His creation, so, why not? Back to my original train of thought. . . This science, like all things human, is fallible. Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true. Atheists say there is no absolute truth. If the Atheists' statement is true, their own statement is false, because it could not be absolutely true.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomme73:

quote:

Originally posted by Rancid Apple:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,

13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?

That is not a basic fact. It is a best guess by some scientists. Something I never thought of before until now; maybe the earth dates as old as it does because it came from God. God is written in His creation, so, why not? Back to my original train of thought. . . This science, like all things human, is fallible. Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true. Atheists say there is no absolute truth. If the Atheists' statement is true, their own statement is false, because it could not be absolutely true.

Absolutely.

BG, I genuinely enjoy reading your posts. Thank you so much.....

quote:

Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true.

That is a broad brush and is a little unfair.

While Bill Gray's Church of Holy Idiots may teach that, I dare say that most modern religions do not. The bible is a guidebook of good and evil deeds and timeless moral lessons. It take spiritual discernment from those possessed with the Holy Spirit to properly identify the lessons.

It also take a bit of intelligence to realize that the book of Genesis was an example of the flawed science of the time. It was an attempt to uncover our origins using the only available tools of the times: Our noggins. Those who say the bible is inerrant and without flaw are just stupid. Sorry, no other way to describe that. The bible is filled with errors because it was transcribed by man. If it were written by the hand of God Himself it would be a much different book.

Anything Man touches is forever spoiled.

Anyhoo we now have many more tools available for us to discover the secrets of Heaven. Many religions would have us abandon these new tools and revert to the primitive ways of our biblical ancestors. Im surprised BG even knows how to use a computer.

But it is so easy to just look up verses and spout them back or get the DVD from the latest faddist prosperity/Triburapture/Serpent Seed soi disant "preacher" and parrot them back!

Now it takes work to actually read stories not in isolation but as part of a revelation and to try to make sense of what the totality mean. Hard work! Why bother when God is going to give me a magic carpet ride to 1000 years of Jerusalem, then 3 or 4 judgments and then a the eternal joy of having watched Goo and Magoo or whomever they are/were and all their minions slaughtered.

Blood lust and a simple little one size fits all prayer that is magical is so much more fun and easy than feeding the hungry or having to think about "What Is the Example of Our Lord and Am I following this?".

quote:

Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
But it is so easy to just look up verses and spout them back or get the DVD from the latest faddist prosperity/Triburapture/Serpent Seed soi disant "preacher" and parrot them back!

Now it takes work to actually read stories not in isolation but as part of a revelation and to try to make sense of what the totality mean. Hard work! Why bother when God is going to give me a magic carpet ride to 1000 years of Jerusalem, then 3 or 4 judgments and then a the eternal joy of having watched Goo and Magoo or whomever they are/were and all their minions slaughtered.

Blood lust and a simple little one size fits all prayer that is magical is so much more fun and easy than feeding the hungry or having to think about "What Is the Example of Our Lord and Am I following this?".

Hi Neal,

I have asked these questions of you a number of times; but, you do not seem to have any answers:

1. How does one attain salvation?

2. Can one KNOW that he/she has eternal security in Jesus Christ?

3. A number of times I have given my view of the End Times, which you always deny. Please, in as few words as possible, without hate filled sarcasm -- can you explain YOUR view of what will happen in the End Times?

We in the Religion Forum are sincerely interested in your views on these issues.

Thank you and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill