Hi to my Forum Friends,

As I was getting ready to bid my computer "good night!" -- an e-mail came in from The Institute For Creation Research containing the devotional below. It was written by Dr. Henry M. Morris, founder and long time president of The Institute For Creation Research -- a scientist and a Christian believer. Dr. Morris has written very good commentaries on both Genesis and Revelation, as well as many other books explaining the Bible -- and he hit the nail on the head with this short devotional.

Of course, we know that our recently reincarnated resident atheist will tell us that Dr. Morris was stupid and was not really a scientist. Yet, he did have his Ph.D. in a technical and scientific field -- and he spent a life time declaring the truths found in our Bible.

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THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION
Dr. Henry M. Morris, March 13, 2010
The Institute For Creation Research

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." (Mark 10:6)

These words of the Lord Jesus Christ ought to settle once and for all, for those who take His words seriously, the controversial question of the age of the earth. The earth was created essentially at the same time, He said, as the creation of Adam and Eve. Christ was quoting from Genesis 1:27: "male and female created He them." This greatest of God's creative works was "from the beginning of the creation," not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation, as modern old-earth advocates allege.

One can understand why atheists believe in evolution and an almost infinitely old universe, for they really have no other alternative. One who believes in a personal God, on the other hand, only dishonors God if he believes such humanistic speculations rather than God's Word. God is omniscient and omnipotent, as well as loving and merciful, and He would never do anything like this.

The great ages assumed by evolutionary geologists supposedly involved billions of years of suffering and dying by billions of animals before man ever evolved. Surely this would have been the most inefficient, wasteful, and cruel method that ever could have been devised for "creating" human beings. Since man's creation was God's main purpose, there is no conceivable reason why He would waste billions of years in such a meaningless charade as this before getting to the point.

In fact, the only reason He took six days instead of an instant of time was to serve as a pattern for man's work week (Exodus 20:8-11). In fact, the Lord Jesus Christ was not only a creationist, but was Himself the Creator of all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; etc.).

Therefore, He is the best possible witness as to when He created man and woman, and He said it was "from the beginning of the creation!" HMM

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I pray that you find this enlightening and edifying.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Of course, we know that our recently reincarnated resident atheist will tell us that Dr. Morris was stupid and was not really a scientist. Yet, he did have his Ph.D. in a technical and scientific field -- and he spent a life time declaring the truths found in our Bible.

This is just a post to start an arguement, if you really wanted to teach or something you would have left off that paragraph. Leave it off and it invites discussion, with it in, you're just challenging Deep to a fight.The computer equivalent of "Knock this stick off my shoulder, I dare you."
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,


13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?
quote:
Originally posted by kodachi:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Of course, we know that our recently reincarnated resident atheist will tell us that Dr. Morris was stupid and was not really a scientist. Yet, he did have his Ph.D. in a technical and scientific field -- and he spent a life time declaring the truths found in our Bible.

This is just a post to start an argument, if you really wanted to teach or something you would have left off that paragraph. Leave it off and it invites discussion, with it in, you're just challenging Deep to a fight. The computer equivalent of "Knock this stick off my shoulder, I dare you."

Hi Kodachi,

While I truly was not seeking an argument with my Friend, Deep -- you are right that it would have been better to have deleted that statement -- or to have rephrased it. I should not have written it that way -- and I apologize to Deep and all my Religion Forum Friends.

The only excuse (and excuses are never acceptable) I might even have for having written it that way is: (1) It was in the wee hours of the morning, like 4:30 AM, and I wrote this just as I was getting ready for bed, and (2) I had in mind what my Friend, Deep, has so often done on the Religion Forum in his fervent attempts to silence any and all references to scientists who believe in Creation -- deny and invalidate their credentials -- especially Dr. Morris.

Dr. Henry M. Morris, a recognized and respected engineer and scientist, as well as being highly regarded in the Christian community -- helped found the Creation Research Society in 1963. And, in 1970, he founded and led The Institute For Creation Research until his relatively recent death.

For all my Forum Friends who are interested, The Institute For Creation Research publishes a high quality, well written monthly magazine titled Acts & Facts. And, it is mailed to anyone who requests a subscription -- FREE.

Visit their web site: http://www.icr.org and scroll to the bottom. Click on Subscriptions and you can request a FREE subscription to this fantastic magazine. Besides being one of the most informative magazines I read -- it is so well done that you will want to display it on your coffee table in the living room. It makes a great Coffee Table Magazine.

On their web site, you can read Recent News articles such as the current list:

* Evolution and Global Warming Link as Theories, Not Science, in Kentucky Bill
* Bacteria Share Metabolism through Nanowires
* Small Dogs Came from the Middle East
* Mystery Fossil Study Fits Creation
* Did Religion 'Emerge' through Evolution?

Or, you may visit the web site: http://www.icr.org/aaf and read the Acts & Facts magazine on line. Either way, you will find it exciting and it will strengthen your walk with the Lord -- and make you a more knowledgeable Christian believer.

Just for the record, so that no one may discredit the writings of Dr. Henry M. Morris -- this is a list of some of his books and videos:

* The Genesis Record: A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the Book of Genesis
* Men of Science Men of God: Great Scientists of the Past Who Believed the Bible
* Scientific Creationism
* Many Infallible Proofs: Evidences for the Christian Faith
* The Biblical Basis for Modern Science
* The Bible Has the Answer 99 copies
* The Long War Against God: The History and Impact of the Creation/Evolution…
* What Is Creation Science
* Twilight of Evolution
* Science and The Bible
* Biblical Creationism: What Each Book of the Bible Teaches About Creation…
* The Revelation Record: A Scientific and Devotional Commentary on the…
* Remarkable Record of Job: The Ancient Wisdom, Scientific Accuracy, and…
* The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth
* Evolution and the Modern Christian
* The Bible and Modern Science
* Some Call It Science: The Religion of Evolution
* The Beginning of the World: A Scientific Study of Genesis 1-11
* The God Who Is Real: A Creationist Approach to Evangelism and Missions
* Creation and the Modern Christian
* The Modern Creation Trilogy: Scripture and Creation, Science and Creation,…
* The troubled waters of evolution
* The Remarkable Wisdom of Solomon
* Exploring the Evidence for Creation
* Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science
* STUDIES IN THE BIBLE AND SCIENCE or Christ and Creation
* That Their Words May Be Used Against Them
* The defender's study Bible : King James Version
* A Symposium on Creation
* The Remarkable Journey of Jonah: A Scholarly, Conservative Study of His…
* Creation: acts, facts, impacts
* A History of Modern Creationism
* Scientific Case for Creation
* Creation and Its Critics
* God and the Nations: What the Bible Has to Say About Civilizations-Past…
* Sampling the Psalms: A Scientific & Devotional Study of Selected Psalms
* Christian Education for the Real World
* Education for the Real World
* Creation and the Second Coming
* For Time And Forever
* That You Might Believe
* King of Creation
* Science, Scripture, and Salvation
* Decade of Creation
* Baptism: How important is it?
* Days to Remember: Devotions for the Holidays Throughout the Year
* When Christians Roamed the Earth
* Treasures in the Psalms 7 copies
* Explore the word! 7 copies
* Science and creation: a handbook for teachers
* A Biblical Manual On Science and Creation
* Miracles: Do They Still Happen? Why Do We Believe in Them
* SCIENCE, SCRIPTURE AND THE YOUNG EARTH
* 101 Signs of Design: Timeless Truths from the Word
* Bible Science and Creation:
* Evolution in Turmoil
* Twenty-One Scientists Who Believe in Creation
* The Origin of Earth and Its People: Studies in Genesis
* Introducing Scientific Creationism Into The Public Schools
* After Eden: Understanding Creation, the Curse, and the Cross
* Biblical Catastrophism and Geology
* The Age of the Earth (video)
* The Battle for Creation: Acts/Facts/Impacts Vol. 2
* Creation: The Cutting Edge
* Record Scientific Genesis Devotional
* Introduction To Biblical Creationism
* Days of Praise
* Pulling Down Strongholds: Achieving Spiritual Victory through Strategic…
* Genesis Record, The
* Genesis Flood, The
* The Seminary Review The Bible and Modern Science Chronology and Geological…
* Dark History of Evolution (video)
* And God Created (Volume 4)
* The Scientific Case Against Evolution
* Scripture and Creation: The Modern Creation Trilogy, Vol 1
* Society and Creation: The Modern Creation Trilogy, Vol. 3
* Symposium on Creation
* The Tragic Fruits of Darwinism
* The Genesis Flood (video)

Yes, this is definitely the works of a man who knew science and who knew God -- and through his great knowledge, you and I can become better witnesses for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Thank you for your reply Mr. Gray, I've read your replies for years, and I know you are capable of very eloquent posts. It seems you might have gotten a little excited At Deepfat's return.

Respectfully I post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris

According to this Dr. Morris graduated from Rice with a degree in civil engineering and University of Minn. with a PHD in hydraulic engineering. I work with hydraulics everyday and I respect a man who knows enough about it to have a doctorate. But how does this make him an expert on debunking evolutionary theory and establishing that creationalism was the way it happened? The man is (was) an engineer not a scientist.

I don't post much so I don't know if this link will be active or not but you can google the name. I also know that some folks don't look at Wiki as a good source, but I've always found them to be fairly dependable.
quote:
Originally posted by kodachi:
hank you for your reply Mr. Gray, I've read your replies for years, and I know you are capable of very eloquent posts. It seems you might have gotten a little excited at Deepfat's return.

Respectfully I post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Morris

According to this Dr. Morris graduated from Rice with a degree in civil engineering and University of Minn. with a Ph.D. in hydraulic engineering. I work with hydraulics everyday and I respect a man who knows enough about it to have a doctorate. But how does this make him an expert on debunking evolutionary theory and establishing that creationism was the way it happened? The man is (was) an engineer not a scientist.

I don't post much so I don't know if this link will be active or not but you can google the name. I also know that some folks don't look at Wiki as a good source, but I've always found them to be fairly dependable.

Hi Kodachi,

You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.

I might use myself as an example. I have not attended seminary; however, I have spent over twenty years studying eschatology -- so, I feel comfortable leading a Bible study or writing about eschatology. I spent four years developing a set of eschatology charts which I use in leading Bible studies. I will be happy to e-mail them to anyone who asks. I also have several PowerPoint presentations on the End Times that I will share with anyone who wants them.

Dr. Morris spent more than fifty years learning, writing, and teaching about God. So, I would put this on top of his Ph.d. in Engineering and say that he was well grounded in science/engineering and in the knowledge of the Bible. I have some of his books -- and, one day, would love to have all his writings in my personal library.

By the way, I am not just happy to see Deep back on the Religion Forum -- I am delighted! Over the past three years, since his writings lured me to the forums -- he has given me many good platforms from which to share the Gospel. One cannot row against the tide -- in a still river. Deep is my faithful tide. Sorry, Deep, I know you are an Auburn fan. Maybe I should change that to "my faithful current" -- which I row against.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Friends do not let friends read the ICR website sober.

Hi Neal,

I know you follow Liberal Theology teachings; but, even liberals believe in God and Creation. Have you changed your allegiance away from God?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.


So this man has had no formal training in seminary and that his religous training is more or less self taught? Just because he's well educated about some things doesn't mean he can't be in the opposite direction on something else, and reach conclusions that are not intended.

It's like someone claiming to be a Shaolin monk because they've studied all the episodes of Kung Fu. Self teaching is as dangerous as self medicating.
quote:
Originally posted by Rancid Apple:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,


13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?


Apple,

Bill screws up everything. He is insane. Every wee thing he posits as fact is just the opposite of that thing, the fact.

Apple, you should know that Bill thinks the world is 6000 years old and that a flood encompassed the world some 4500 years ago, give or take a few hundred years.

It would not impress him at all to know that the Chinese have a written history of about 7000 years, and no mention of a catastrophic flood.

This is because facts mean nothing to fundamentalists, of whom Bill is a sterling, if extraordinary, example.

All we can do is alert the normally intelligent against these morons and try to move on.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by kodachi:
quote:
You are right that Dr. Morris' Ph.d. was in Hydraulic Engineering. But, this was coincident with the beginning of his walk with God. This highly educated man devoted his life to learning about, teaching about, and writing about God and the works He has done.


So this man has had no formal training in seminary and that his religous training is more or less self taught? Just because he's well educated about some things doesn't mean he can't be in the opposite direction on something else, and reach conclusions that are not intended.

It's like someone claiming to be a Shaolin monk because they've studied all the episodes of Kung Fu. Self teaching is as dangerous as self medicating.

Hi Kodachi,

I did not say that Dr. Morris does not have any seminary training -- only that I am not aware of it.

But, his body of work speaks volumes about his credentials and abilities to teach about the Bible. I have yet to find anyone, other than an atheist, who questions Dr. Morris' credentials.

And the fact that he does have a Ph.D. in a technical/engineering/science field -- does add great credibility also.

You may choose to discount his works because his degree is not in the particular field of science you want -- but, as for me, I will continue to study his writings. For, I find them exceptional.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I'm sure the man is very intelligent and I can tell you repect his work. However the engineering/technical/science field that he's had all his formal training does not include advanced degrees of biology or medicine. I am just wary of people who are "self taught" about things as important as this. I mean he could not have achieved all of his advanced technical and engineering degrees in hydraulics by just studying and reading on his own. He had to go to school.

I would think that if you're going to use this guy as an example of a evolution vs, creationist scientist, and use his degrees to make a point. He should have degrees in the appropriate fields.

I wouldn't want to be in a building that was desingned by a structural engineer who was self taught.

That's my feeling on it, at least. I'm sorry if you think I'm coming back to this point so much.
quote:
Originally posted by kodachi:
I'm sure the man is very intelligent and I can tell you respect his work. However the engineering/technical/science field that he's had all his formal training does not include advanced degrees of biology or medicine. I am just wary of people who are "self taught" about things as important as this. I mean he could not have achieved all of his advanced technical and engineering degrees in hydraulics by just studying and reading on his own. He had to go to school. I would think that if you're going to use this guy as an example of a evolution vs, creationist scientist, and use his degrees to make a point. He should have degrees in the appropriate fields. I wouldn't want to be in a building that was designed by a structural engineer who was self taught. That's my feeling on it, at least. I'm sorry if you think I'm coming back to this point so much.

Hi Kodachi,

If Dr. Henry Morris, were he still alive, or his son, also Dr. Henry Morris, Jr. -- were to tell you about the Bible, Creation, and salvation -- would you refuse to listen to them BECAUSE they do not have a degree in astronomy, biology, or any other of the life science fields? If Dr. Morris, Sr., had told you that he had studied, taught, and wrote about the Bible and Christianity for fifty years -- you would still walk away -- because he does not have a Ph.D. from a seminary, or in a science field you acknowledge?

Let me tell you a story about two Muslim brothers. Ergun and Emir Caner came to America as teenagers; their father a leader in the Muslim religion. They were part of a devout Muslim family living in the midwest. While in high school, Ergun became friends with an American -- who was a Christian, a Baptist. The friend constantly invited Ergun to attend church with him. Finally, the friend wore him down and Ergun went to the small Baptist church with his friend.

What Ergun found was a small Baptist church with a pastor who only had an eighth grade education -- but, he preached good sermons, sermons full of the love of God. And the people in the church welcomed Ergun with open arms, showing Christian love to this Muslim teenager. Out of curiosity, Ergun continued to attend church with his friend -- until one day, he felt the tugging of the Holy Spirit upon his heart. Ergun went forward and invited Jesus Christ to come into his heart and be his Lord and Savior.

Later, Ergun would tell people that this pastor, this church, "Loved him all the way to the cross." Yet, this pastor did not have a degree from a seminary; he did not even have a high school diploma. But, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he led this young Muslim boy into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Ergun then brought his brother, Emir, to church -- and to make a long story short -- Emir became a born again Christian believer.

Both went on to get their Ph.D. and today, Dr. Ergun Caner is president of Liberty University Seminary in Virginia. And, his brother, Dr. Emir Caner, became the founding Dean of The College at Southwestern, Director of the Center for Free Church Studies and Professor of History at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, and remained there until he accepted the call of Truett-McConnell College to become its eighth president in August 2008.

Kodachi, by your reasoning, both of the men should have walked away from that uneducated Baptist pastor in that small Baptist church. After all, he only had an eighth grade education. What could he teach these two young teenage Muslim boys? Enough to put them on the road to what they are today.

You are correct that if I want to have a building designed and built; I would go to those who have the training and knowledge. However, that is not always found in institutions of higher learning.

In 1963, I took a position in a company named Ramo Wooldridge (now called TRW). A small group of us went there to set up a lab for testing the first military spec mini-computer, the AN/YUK-1 computer. In the area where we were setting up our lab for testing these computers; there was a microwave lab which was being phased out. A young kid, only 18 years old, was the last microwave engineer left to phase out that lab. Once that was done, he came into our department to work on computers -- a totally different field for him. Yet, he quickly became very proficient -- to the point that our boss was afraid to leave him alone in the lab -- for fear that he would redesign the computer.

After he had been with us less than two weeks, as our boss was walking through the lab, the kid called him, "Gil, let me show you what I have" -- he pressed a button and the computer began to speak, "Hello, I am an AN/YUK-1 mini-computer." I thought our boss, Gil, would have a heart attack. He screamed at the kid, "Take it out! Take it out!" The kid told him, "Gil, it is only software. I did no hardware changes."

Gil replied, in a panic, "I don't care! Take it out!" This was long before computers could talk.

This was also before there were any mobile telephones in cars. A couple of months later, we went on a coffee break and the kid asked me to follow him to his car. He picked up a telephone in his car and called a friend who was still in the building. I was amazed -- this was over forty years before wireless phones. He opened the trunk of his car -- and it was jammed with electronic equipment. He and a friend built it; then went up on Mt. Wilson late at night and hid an antennae there. He could call from his car and it would appear that he was calling from his home telephone.

Later that year, the kid got married and he and his bride moved into an apartment. From their second story window, they could see the screen of a drive-in movie. At work the kid showed me a small electronic transmitter frozen in epoxy, about an inch square. This was before miniaturization of electronics. The kid went to the back row of the drive-in movie, took a speaker apart -- and planted his miniature transmitter in it. After that, he and his bride could sit in their living room window and watch, and hear, the movies -- for free. Remember, this was 1963.

I asked the kid, still only 19, why he did not go to an engineering college and get his degree. His answer, "I already know more that most engineers. Why should I waste four years learning what I already know?" And, I had to agree with him.

A year after joining our department, and after many near heart attacks with our boss -- the kid left and took a position designing special effects equipment for a major television network in Los Angeles. I would venture to say that many of the innovations in television which we have enjoyed over the years - came from the brain of this kid.

One last story: In the late 1960s, I was selling computers for Digital Equipment Corporation in Palo Alto, California. We all got a chuckle when we received a letter from an apparently illiterate man telling us that he wanted to buy a computer for his son. At that time, the lowest cost computer one could buy was the PDP-8S which sold for $10,000 -- with no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse, etc. -- just the bare box.

As it turned out, the man was an illiterate black farmer in San Jose and his son was a high school senior. The son was in the process of designing the first Digital Video Recorder (as a high school senior) and was racing with Ampex Corporation to finish his design and get a patent before Ampex beat him to it. His father sold one of his houses to buy the computer for his son; so that the son could use it to do his design calculations.

Why am I telling you these stories? Because, by your logic, you would have walked away from that Baptist pastor and the Christian world would not have the Caner brothers teaching us today. You would have walked away from my young teenage friend who has most likely designed many of the television advances you enjoy today. You would have walked away from this black teenage boy who was instrumental in bringing us VCRs, etc.

Yes, you would not have listened to these people -- for they did not have a Ph.D. in the science field which you will recognize.

Personally, I feel honored to have known these people -- and I feel excited that we, the Christian world, have the multitude of books and teachings which came from the heart, mind, and soul of Dr. Henry M. Morris. If we do not learn from those who have gone before us, because we will not recognize their credentials -- we are only cheating ourselves.

Don't allow educational snobbery to rob you of such great treasures.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[Hi Kodachi,

If Dr. Henry Morris, were he still alive, or his son, also Dr. Henry Morris, Jr. -- were to tell you about the Bible, Creation, and salvation -- would you refuse to listen to them BECAUSE they do not have a degree in astronomy, biology, or any other of the life science fields? If Dr. Morris, Sr., had told you that he had studied, taught, and wrote about the Bible and Christianity for fifty years -- you would still walk away -- because he does not have a Ph.D. from a seminary, or in a science field you acknowledge[/quote]

Hi Bill,

You're right, I would still walk away, he's pushing something that controversial, he needs to have the training and diplomas to it back it up. Or I might stay and listen politely anyway, I've been accused in the past for being too polite, but they wouldn't convince me that the creationist theory is correct. I don't care how many engineers they throw at me.

You know for that reason right there maybe we should let this thread just die, I'm certainly not going to convince you that evolution and the big bang are the best theories out there now, you've got too much invested in the creationist way too change. It's just the same old thing. You can find this disscussion on a dozen other threads,

I'm sorry for the late reply, it's been a long day and i'm about to bring it to as end as soon as I get through posting this.

One last thing, you accusing anyone of "intelectual snobbery" is kinda ironic Dontcha think. Physician heal thyself.
quote:
Originally posted by Rancid Apple:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,


13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?


That is not a basic fact. It is a best guess by some scientists. Something I never thought of before until now; maybe the earth dates as old as it does because it came from God. God is written in His creation, so, why not? Back to my original train of thought. . . This science, like all things human, is fallible. Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true. Atheists say there is no absolute truth. If the Atheists' statement is true, their own statement is false, because it could not be absolutely true.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by Rancid Apple:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
not 18 billion years after the beginning of the creation,


13.5 billion. If you screw up a very basic fact like this, what else might you be unaware of?


That is not a basic fact. It is a best guess by some scientists. Something I never thought of before until now; maybe the earth dates as old as it does because it came from God. God is written in His creation, so, why not? Back to my original train of thought. . . This science, like all things human, is fallible. Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true. Atheists say there is no absolute truth. If the Atheists' statement is true, their own statement is false, because it could not be absolutely true.


Absolutely. Smiler
quote:
Christians take the Bible to be absolutely true.


That is a broad brush and is a little unfair.

While Bill Gray's Church of Holy Idiots may teach that, I dare say that most modern religions do not. The bible is a guidebook of good and evil deeds and timeless moral lessons. It take spiritual discernment from those possessed with the Holy Spirit to properly identify the lessons.

It also take a bit of intelligence to realize that the book of Genesis was an example of the flawed science of the time. It was an attempt to uncover our origins using the only available tools of the times: Our noggins. Those who say the bible is inerrant and without flaw are just stupid. Sorry, no other way to describe that. The bible is filled with errors because it was transcribed by man. If it were written by the hand of God Himself it would be a much different book.

Anything Man touches is forever spoiled.

Anyhoo we now have many more tools available for us to discover the secrets of Heaven. Many religions would have us abandon these new tools and revert to the primitive ways of our biblical ancestors. Im surprised BG even knows how to use a computer.
But it is so easy to just look up verses and spout them back or get the DVD from the latest faddist prosperity/Triburapture/Serpent Seed soi disant "preacher" and parrot them back!

Now it takes work to actually read stories not in isolation but as part of a revelation and to try to make sense of what the totality mean. Hard work! Why bother when God is going to give me a magic carpet ride to 1000 years of Jerusalem, then 3 or 4 judgments and then a the eternal joy of having watched Goo and Magoo or whomever they are/were and all their minions slaughtered.

Blood lust and a simple little one size fits all prayer that is magical is so much more fun and easy than feeding the hungry or having to think about "What Is the Example of Our Lord and Am I following this?".
quote:
Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
But it is so easy to just look up verses and spout them back or get the DVD from the latest faddist prosperity/Triburapture/Serpent Seed soi disant "preacher" and parrot them back!

Now it takes work to actually read stories not in isolation but as part of a revelation and to try to make sense of what the totality mean. Hard work! Why bother when God is going to give me a magic carpet ride to 1000 years of Jerusalem, then 3 or 4 judgments and then a the eternal joy of having watched Goo and Magoo or whomever they are/were and all their minions slaughtered.

Blood lust and a simple little one size fits all prayer that is magical is so much more fun and easy than feeding the hungry or having to think about "What Is the Example of Our Lord and Am I following this?".

Hi Neal,

I have asked these questions of you a number of times; but, you do not seem to have any answers:

1. How does one attain salvation?

2. Can one KNOW that he/she has eternal security in Jesus Christ?

3. A number of times I have given my view of the End Times, which you always deny. Please, in as few words as possible, without hate filled sarcasm -- can you explain YOUR view of what will happen in the End Times?

We in the Religion Forum are sincerely interested in your views on these issues.

Thank you and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Oh! I KNOW! I KNOW! One attains salvation through the sacraments of Baptism, in which we enter into Christ's death,so we may rise with Him. And also by partaking in the Holy Eucharist.
AND by confessing our sins regularly, doing pennance, and being Christ's love in this world for others.
BUT we are not guaranteed anything. We are in serious trouble if we claim that we KNOW we are saved.
We need to pray for mercy that we will be given eternal life with Christ and not what we truly deserve.
Sorry to butt in, but this is one answer that I **DO** know and love to share! Smiler
As for end times, it's a mystery,now, isn't it. Christ clearly said that nobody will know the day nor the hour, but He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. And we pray for the living,and the dead,that He will raise us up on that last day. the end.
What in the world is "eternal security?" Where is that in the Bible or any Ecumenical Creed? Riddle me that. I did not get no fancy book learning about no 'ternal security. Nor do I know anything about birthing babies or snake handling.

It is simple: believe in love the Lord thy God with all your heart and all your strength and take up your cross and follow Him. That means to follow His commandments, His Church, and His examples.

I wonder where y'all come up with all these little quaint revival terms, anyhow, "get saved," "Tribulation," "Rapture," "Sinners' Prayer," etc.? Did it come in a crackerjack box or is just a translation from the Latin and Greek of the Apostles and Church Fathers? I wonder because it certainly is not in the Holy Scriptures! Maybe that talking snake whispered it to you in a dream -- he is one sneaky dog -- or is it that your crystal worker and astrologer got together and worked it out for you?
Aude Sapere, Eternal Security is another word for "once saved always saved". once you are saved you can't be lost, I know better and maybe you do to, but that is what foundation Bill's religion is based on, and John 10 27-29.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Oh! I KNOW! I KNOW! One attains salvation through the sacraments of Baptism, in which we enter into Christ's death,so we may rise with Him. And also by partaking in the Holy Eucharist.
AND by confessing our sins regularly, doing pennance, and being Christ's love in this world for others.
BUT we are not guaranteed anything. We are in serious trouble if we claim that we KNOW we are saved.
We need to pray for mercy that we will be given eternal life with Christ and not what we truly deserve.
Sorry to butt in, but this is one answer that I **DO** know and love to share! Smiler
As for end times, it's a mystery,now, isn't it. Christ clearly said that nobody will know the day nor the hour, but He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. And we pray for the living,and the dead,that He will raise us up on that last day. the end.


There are as many views of scripture as there are people, one might say, and while I understand that not everyone has or will have the same belief or understanding as I do I would like to share a few thoughts regarding some of your comments and the following verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV) 13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Note in vs 13 "Brothers" are addressed as the recipients of this word therefore it is being told, written to, saved people, Christians that is. The talk is regarding the dead or those who have died and left this physical life. He also points out in vs 13 that there are Christians and non-Christians that have to deal with death only non-Christians he refers to as those that have no hope., Vs 14 again declares what defines a Christian "Belief" and that those who have died as Christians will be brought by Jesus at the time of His future coming. vs 15 .. those believers alive at the time of Christ coming will not be "raptured" or precede those that have died ( in Christ ). Verses 16 & 17 is referring to that which many call the Rapture, the catching up of the Christians who have died and those Christians that are alive at the time of the Rapture to be translated into their new spiritual body. Vs 18 tells Christians to encourage each other with the words about how both the Christians that have died as well as those that persevere during the time of Christ future coming will be taken care of by God/Christ.

Now regarding your point about no one knowing ..
Reference the following:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 (NIV) 1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

Again this is written to Brothers, Christians, fellow believers. Verse 5:1, 2, & 3 taken by themselves and alone reinforce what you have said about knowing about the times of Christ Coming for the Saints (dead and alive) known or said by many as "The Rapture" or Catching up. But verse 4 follows and also is to the same Christians that the book was written to. Note it says YOU BROTHERS .. that's fellow Christians are NOT in darkness that this day should surprise you.

I've posted many times and gone around, with Bill, about this but I not only believe fully that the Church and many Christians will have to endure events that will happen before the Rapture, events that are by some termed as part of the Tribulation period and more specifically the seals of Chapter 6 of Revelation and then the Rapture will come in Revelation 7:9. Christ foretold these events to his disciples in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24. Christ told of this future Rapture and events in the following versses:
Matthew 24:29-31 (NIV) 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So ... Christians are not in darkness but have warning signs (cosmic signs) that will precede when Christ will return to Rapture the dead and alive to himself, in the air. For that reason Brothers (Christians) are not or should not be in total darkness about the future events.

Again I realize that many will not see it this way. This is what I believe the Scriptures say and that the scriptures I have highlighted say. While many will disagree I hope we can do so respectfully and lovingly.
quote:
Again I realize that many will not see it this way. This is what I believe the Scriptures say and that the scriptures I have highlighted say. While many will disagree I hope we can do so respectfully and lovingly.
Posts: 1036


I sincerely appreciate your comments. Respectfully and lovingly are the 2 smartest things I've heard on this forum in a while. We are not giving glory to God with bickering, and picking apart His words. Thank you for your comments! Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by prince albert:
Aude Sapere, Eternal Security is another word for "once saved always saved". once you are saved you can't be lost, I know better and maybe you do to, but that is what foundation Bill's religion is based on, and John 10 27-29.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


One point about "Eternal Salvation" or "Eternal Security". While many do use the very verses you cited as their proof of that very point I would like to add why many believe such.

First it centers around Scripture's promise that those who accept Christ, are Saved are given the Holy Spirit to dwell (literally live) within their bodies along with their created spirit.

John 14:15 (NIV) 15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. John 14:16 (NIV) 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- John 14:17 (NIV) 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Romans 8:9 (NIV) 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Romans 8:10 (NIV) 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 8:11 (NIV) 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

also

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) 16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 1 Corinthians 6:19 (NIV) 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Given that the Holy Spirit of God, God Himself resides within the Christian's body as a Guarantee of Salvation in order for Satan to win back this person, the person to lose their salvation, then the Holy Spirit would have to be overcome and defeated otherwise it is the Holy Spirit of God who protects the Christian and no one is stronger or greater than God. It is this same indwelling Holy Spirit that is grieved when a Christian sins or lives a lifestyle of Sinning against God. Rather than leaving the Holy Spirit is grieved by our actions.

Ephesians 4:30 (AMP) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

If it was possible for a person to sin to the point of losing the Holy Spirit, our guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 (AMP) 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God's own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin).

It is based upon the ability of God (the Holy Spirit ) to protect, hold, maintain, the Saint or saved person's salvation that the concept of "Eternal Security" comes from and is based upon.
Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

At the Rapture, only believers will see the Lord in the clouds. For the Lord will come, we know not when, like a "thief in the night" and take us, snatch up, rapture, His church from earth. This will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). In other words, the Lord will appear in the clouds -- then, we Christians will be snatched up, raptured, in a split second -- so fast that the world will not know what has happened. To them, suddenly millions, maybe billions, of people were there -- then, quicker than they could blink their eyes -- they were gone.

In the case of the Rapture -- He will come FOR His church.

Now, those who have read of or been told of the Rapture -- will begin to put two and two together and realize what has happened. But, unfortunately, these folks, even though they see the Light, will be left behind and will have to endure the Tribulation. We know from the Bible that the harvest of souls, those saved, during the Tribulation will be a number too great to count. In other words, the Rapture will cause many to reevaluate their lives -- and get on the path to glory with God. But, still, these new Christians will have to suffer, and many die, be martyred for their faith, in the Tribulation.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- all the world will see Him coming in glory -- and He will be coming WITH His church, the Bride of Christ. All the world will see Him during His Second Coming and they will mourn -- for they will know that it is now time to pay the piper -- to settle accounts with the Son of God.

Yes, Christians will endure the Tribulation -- but, only those who became believers AFTER the Rapture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Dude, there is no rapture or tribulation chosen just for plot device! We are constantly under assail for our faith. We see the hungry and the thirsty and scurry past them, telling ourselves that once my business is done, I'll go back to them. . . . but we forget to remember on purpose.

We are not puppets and God is not the puppet master. We have free will to choose the left hand or the right hand path. We do have a bless3ed map to keep us on track, and that is the Church and all she encompasses, from Holy Scripture to comfortable sacraments, to Our Lord's Own Examples.

How the world ends or was created is about as germane as whether the chicken or egg was here first! We are here. We do have a pathway. We do have the Holy Spirit. It is like arguing about the chosen word for English translation for "serpent" in the Garden of Eden story: was it a snake or a snake that had legs and then lost them as some allege? Would that be a lizard then? Would that be evolution, by chance, a most interesting amount of sand to throw into the gears' lubrication that concept!

Why was the world united about the basics of the end times and salvation and the sacraments until the 1500s? Then it got interesting, but by the late 1800s it just got and stays just plain weird with snake handlers, revival tents, jets for tv preachers and their wigs, novel innovations such as "prosperity preaching" and the ever exciting "rapture and tribulation for fun and profit."

There is no point arguing with the insane and seriously brain damaged unless it is for fun and the edification of those who are alongside for the joyride.
Hi Neal/Aude,

It would have been simpler -- and more to the point -- to just say, "Bill, I cannot answer those questions because I do not know."

That anyone can respect. But, you always insist upon loud pontification and blustering; your trademark.

So, okay, I am taking this as an "I don't know" answer.

Nice chatting with you, Neal.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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In no way was that an "I don't know" answer.
Your questions were answered. They were answered very well, in my opinion.

I will echo this, by saying we have free will. We reject God every time we sin. Every time we see a hungry person and don't feed them.
A very wise Priest (Father John Corapi, SOLT)
once said, everytime you see someone in need, you see Jesus. Do you pass them by?
Sometimes? When you're in a hurry? See, that is the key- Jesus said "so whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto Me.".
We must continually do God's work, be pleasing to Him, accept his gifts and mercy in the sacraments, and pray that somehow, through His mercy we are raised up with Him.
I am not sure why you slam this individuals posts the way you do, but it is certainly not kind nor attractive to other Christians. It sounds like you're the authority- you're not- we're all equals here, arent we.
quote:
1. How does one attain salvation?

2. Can one KNOW that he/she has eternal security in Jesus Christ?

3. A number of times I have given my view of the End Times, which you always deny. Please, in as few words as possible, without hate filled sarcasm -- can you explain YOUR view of what will happen in the End Times?


1. Through good works a sincere belief in the Lord.

2. No. No one can "know" despite your snake handler's insistence to the contrary. There are many paths to salvation. While I've never outright denied His presence, I fervently hope that the God of infinite love and mercy will understand why I wavered from time to time. I've spent my life in an earnest and honest attempt to understand and worship God with the best facilities He gave unto me. A lifetime of devotion to Him, good works, combating evil where I see it (which includes battling people like you who are doing everything you can to push people away from grace), my acceptance of Jesus as a great humanitarian, SHOULD cement my place in heaven. If it does not, then God isn't the merciful being I thought he was so I'd want no part of it, anyway.

3. Oh please. The "End Times" were fully expected by all the apostles to happen within their lifetime. 2000 years later, still no apocalypse. While I hope mankind will overcome his tendency to blow up the world, I suspect he won't. So the end times will likely come but it won't be by the hand of the Lord. It will be from Muslim people who, like you, cannot think past their religion and will actually celebrate that blinding nuclear flash over Israel as a sign that the prophet has returned.

When you consider that Rome was undertaking a vast and rapid expansion and killing Christians like a child stomping an any pile, then you can understand why these poor people thought the End was Near. I'm sure they would be just as dismayed as I am that, 2000 years later, ignorant people have forgotten their struggles.


So BG you can stop with your insistence that you "know" this or "know" that. You don't. None of us do. We are imperfect beings living in an imperfect world feeling our way towards salvation as best we can.
quote:
When you consider that Rome was undertaking a vast and rapid expansion and killing Christians like a child stomping an any pile


That should read "ANT" pile. Not "any."
Hi all,

Since several people have responded that we are saved by "good works" -- I guess I have just one question. How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This Scripture passage tells me that we are not saved through ANY WORKS -- not through helping the poor, not through baptism, not through attending mass, not through ANY WORKS.

How do you read this passage?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Since several people have responded that we are saved by "good works" -- I guess I have just one question. How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

This Scripture passage tells me that we are not saved through ANY WORKS -- not through helping the poor, not through baptism, not through attending mass, not through ANY WORKS.


In English that reads: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

You believe you have been saved by your faith alone. I'm afraid that is not enough. I think it explains perfectly why you believe you can say whatever the heck you want and separate other people from God.

I believe it means that all the good works you do are, alone, not enough alone to get your ticket to heaven punched. You must also have faith. I've always had faith. I've not always had belief. That will be an impossible concept to a snake handler but it is what it is. I'm as comfortable as a human can be that my place in heaven is assured but I back up my faith with good deeds.

Your primitive faith gives you the audicity to play God's henchman and dare to inform others of their final resting spot. How dare you.

You obviously beleive that you can do and say whatever the heck you want, no matter how hurtful and spiteful, because you have 100% "faith" of your place in heaven. That fire and brimstone kind of hateful Christianity should have died long ago. It's no wonder the "none of the above" are the fastest growing segment of the religion landscape today.

Peter said "Love covers a multitude of sins." The only way to love others is by doing good unto them. GOOD DEEDS Bill Gray. That means refraining from sicking Jesus on them! That means NOT SPREADING A MESSAGE OF HATE which seems to be all you are capable of.

For all we know, Bill, the atheists that you love to wrangle with are angels sent to test your love for your fellow man. Think about it.
Hi Sofa,

When I asked what Ephesians 2:8-9 is telling us, you tell me, "I believe it means that all the good works you do are, alone, not enough alone to get your ticket to heaven punched. You must also have faith. I've always had faith. I've not always had belief. That will be an impossible concept to a snake handler but it is what it is. I'm as comfortable as a human can be that my place in heaven is assured but I back up my faith with good deeds."

You are partially right; that good works will not get you into heaven. This passage in Ephesians confirms that. We are saved by grace through faith -- plus nothing else.

However, once saved, we do need to show the fruit of our salvation. Keep in mind that the fruit of our salvation does not in any way earn us salvation -- but, it shows that we are trying to be true Christ Followers after we are saved. Yes, James 2:17 tells us, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

So, if we have salvation but do not follow this up by showing the fruit of our salvation -- our salvation is dead. Yet, we still have salvation. But, at the Bema Seat Judgment -- we will come up empty in the rewards department.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 makes it clear what happens to a person who is saved, but has no fruit to show for his salvation, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

After our salvation is assured, i.e., we are born again -- Jesus tells us to Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, Teach Them (Matthew 28:19-20). Then He tells us in Acts 1:8 and in Mark 16:15 to be His witnesses to all the world. This is the fruit He wants to see from us -- bringing the Gospel of Salvation to all the unsaved souls. He wants as many as possible to be saved. After all, He died on the cross to offer them salvation. So, when we fail to share His Gospel with folks who need to hear it -- we are not doing the "works" He wants from us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You are partially right;


There you go again judging me from your pearly loft of pride. Who, exactly, are you to tell me I am wrong about anything in the bible? It is a book inspired by God and written by fallible MEN, Bill. You and I are as blind people feeling our way down the hall as best we can. All we can say with some relative certainty is that we are both headed down the hall. How dare you claim you can see better than I.

No, I am as right about this topic (and with God) as any imperfect human can be. We both agree that faith and deeds do not stand alone. I guess that is enough.

quote:
Yet, we still have salvation. But, at the Bema Seat Judgment -- we will come up empty in the rewards department.


More fire and brimstone craziness. You make salvation sound like some kind of credit card rewards program for loyal customers.
Hi Sofa,

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Need I say more? ALL SCRIPTURE is authored, inspired, by God. God does not make mistakes; He never has to say, "Oops!"

So, no, the Bible is not just a good book written by men. The Bible is the Written Word of God -- just as Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

At the Rapture, only believers will see the Lord in the clouds. For the Lord will come, we know not when, like a "thief in the night" and take us, snatch up, rapture, His church from earth. This will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). In other words, the Lord will appear in the clouds -- then, we Christians will be snatched up, raptured, in a split second -- so fast that the world will not know what has happened. To them, suddenly millions, maybe billions, of people were there -- then, quicker than they could blink their eyes -- they were gone.

In the case of the Rapture -- He will come FOR His church.

Now, those who have read of or been told of the Rapture -- will begin to put two and two together and realize what has happened. But, unfortunately, these folks, even though they see the Light, will be left behind and will have to endure the Tribulation. We know from the Bible that the harvest of souls, those saved, during the Tribulation will be a number too great to count. In other words, the Rapture will cause many to reevaluate their lives -- and get on the path to glory with God. But, still, these new Christians will have to suffer, and many die, be martyred for their faith, in the Tribulation.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- all the world will see Him coming in glory -- and He will be coming WITH His church, the Bride of Christ. All the world will see Him during His Second Coming and they will mourn -- for they will know that it is now time to pay the piper -- to settle accounts with the Son of God.

Yes, Christians will endure the Tribulation -- but, only those who became believers AFTER the Rapture.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill you and I have threshed this out in another "Rapture" discussion and we had to agree to disagree. I fully believe you are completely wrong in your translation of the Olivet discourse and like many Pre-Tribulationist requires you to mold scripture to meet your position. It requires you to take Revelation Figuratively instead of a literal reading and make applications that just aren't there or backed up by Scripture. The Pre-Tribulation position has NO Scriptural backing unless you use selectivity construed Scripture to mean what it doesn't say.

Regarding the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 if you interpret it the way you are then you are saying that Christ, in His direct and literal answer to His Disciples, regarding an answer to their questions about the end times, failed to mention or advise them about the Rapture. In your interpretation and other Pre-Tribulationist leave Christ failing to tell of the Rapture in his answer, something He plainly doesn't do. He tells of the Rapture in Matthew 24:30 & 31 but in order to see this you have to consider that pre-tribulationist interpretation of scripture is skewed and wrong.

You wish to argue this point or disagree then where did Christ advise His Disciples of the Rapture or cover the Rapture in the Olivet discourse, a direct answer to their questions about the end times and how to recognize them?

Likewise you have to omit 1 Thessalonians 5:4 from all consideration in order to keep Christians and Saints of God in complete darkness so that the coming of Christ, the Rapture, still comes as a "thief in the night". You want to say that Christians are caught unawares of Christ return for His Saints but plainly 1 Thessalonians 5:4 says "Brothers" .. that is Christians, Bill, who are being addressed .. you ARE NOT in darkness for this day to surprise you. Why? Because Christ explained (in Matthew 24, His Olivet Discourse) exactly how the end times would play out. You however, like typical pre-tribulationist cannot accept those literal uses and understanding of scripture because then it can't be used to back a position that you have adopted as your own.

As dogmatically as I can say it, as a former pre-tribulationist advocate, Pre-Tribulation is in error and is not scriptural.

It is evident though that you nor I will budge regarding these points but if you wish to continue to follow them then we can rehash all that again and start with your explanation of where Christ covers that Rapture in the Olivet Discourse or WHY he omitted it all together, a most profound event, the "Blessed Hope" for Christians. I say he, Christ, did cover it and explain to the disciples about it and that is found in Matthew 24:30 & 31. Your failing to see it because it doesn't fit your doctrine regarding rapture timing. Explain just who in 1 Thessalonians 5:4 is saying will not be in Darkness about the coming of Christ? Who are these recipients of this letter are special that they are not in darkness as apparently everyone else is? The whole context of the passage, following immediately after 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 definitely ties it to the Rapture and not the 2nd coming as you so badly wish to apply to Matthew 24:30 & 31. I say that the writer of 1 Thessalonians just encouraged the recipients of the letter about how they will be caught up to be with Christ in the latter days and advised them that unlike the unsaved who will be caught unawares, like a thief in the night, they will have signs that will announce and precede when Christ will come back for His Church. Signs Christ foretold in Matthew 24:29 that are echoed and fulfilled in Revelation Chapter 6:12, 13 & 14.

Compare: Matthew 24:29 (NIV) 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' with it's fulfillment in Revelation 6:12-14
Revelation 6:12-14 (NIV) 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Many won't care either way as many don't believe or accept there is a rapture in the first place. I personally believe there is a Rapture and that it occurs in Revelation 7:4, not Revelation 4:1 which again requires some very colorful figurative reading and translation in order to make a pre-tribulation timing application.

If however you agree that it would be better to just agree to disagree I will hope you will allow us to leave it at that and we be in disagreement regarding it. Others can make up their own minds, prayerfully reading the scriptures involved and in their own studies.
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quote:
Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Hi GB,

Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

In the Rapture, Jesus Christ does not come with great fanfare -- but, like a thief in the night, when no one is expecting Him. This is why He tells us to be ready at all times.

Yet, at His Second Coming -- He most certainly is coming back in power and glory -- the Lion of Judah.

This is what Matthew 24 is describing -- His Second Coming in power and glory. There is no other way to look at it.

Sure, you can demand a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath Rapture -- but, it is not supported by Scripture. The only End Times scenario supported by Scripture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a Pre-Millennial Return of Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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