Skip to main content

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...-why-i_b_706673.html

Third World America: Why I Wrote the Book and What We Need to Do to Save America's Middle Class
Arianna Huffington

quote:
Growing up, I remember walking to school in Athens past a statue of President Truman. The statue was a daily reminder of the magnificent nation responsible for, among other things, the Marshall Plan.

Everyone in Greece knew someone who'd left to find a better life in America. That was the phrase everyone associated with America: "a better life."

I was sixteen when I first came to this country, as part of a program called the Experiment in International Living. I spent the summer in York, Pennsylvania, staying with four different families. I went back to Athens and then soon went to Cambridge and London. But part of me remained in America.

When I came to live here in 1980, I knew that this time would be for good -- and that there was no other place I'd rather live. Thirty years later, I still feel that way.

But something went wrong -- terribly wrong -- and put our country on a very dangerous path that threatens to transform us into Third World America....

Wherever I looked, and in so many of the stories we covered on the Huffington Post, I kept seeing all the ways the middle class was getting the short end of the stick.

It was the way that Washington rushed to the rescue of Wall Street but forgot about Main Street. It was the daily drumbeat of depressing statistics: One in five Americans unemployed or underemployed. One in nine families unable to make the minimum payment on their credit cards. One in eight mortgages in default or foreclosure. One in eight Americans on food stamps.

Upward mobility has always been at the center of the American Dream -- a promise that if you work hard and play by the rules, you'll do well, and your children will have the chance to do even better.

Well, that promise has been broken, and America's middle class is under assault. The American Dream is becoming a nightmare.

What became clear while writing the book is that the decline of the middle class was no accident. Middle-class America didn't suddenly lose its mojo. It was the result of tricks and traps. Tricks in the ways we financed our homes. Traps in the ways credit-card companies used hidden fees and fine print and skyrocketing interest rates to get their hands on our money, driving more and more people into debt.

Here's the bottom line: The fix is in. The game is rigged. The dice are loaded. And it starts in Washington, where special interests run the show -- and where lobbyists outnumber elected officials 26 to 1. Unfortunately, there are no lobbyists for the American Dream.

Our financial system is similarly rigged -- it's become a bad carnival game where the rich always get the grand prize and the average American walks away empty-handed. We've gone from an economy where we make things to an economy where we make things up: default credit swaps, derivatives, CDOs and the like have turned Wall Street into a casino. Actually, a casino is fairer: At least you know the odds going in....

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

We're having this discussion on another forum as well, where someone posted this link:

http://readersupportednews.org...eptionalism-implodes

The myth of 'American exceptionalism' implodes
Richard Wolff

quote:
One aspect of "American exceptionalism" was always economic. US workers, so the story went, enjoyed a rising level of real wages that afforded their families a rising standard of living. Ever harder work paid off in rising consumption. The rich got richer faster than the middle and poor, but almost no one got poorer. Nearly all citizens felt "middle class". A profitable US capitalism kept running ahead of labour supply. So, it kept raising wages to attract waves of immigration and to retain employees, across the 19th century until the 1970s.

Then everything changed. Real wages stopped rising, as US capitalists redirected their investments to produce and employ abroad, while replacing millions of workers in the US with computers. The US women's liberation moved millions of US adult women to seek paid employment. US capitalism no longer faced a shortage of labour.

US employers took advantage of the changed situation: they stopped raising wages. When basic labour scarcity became labour excess, not only real wages, but eventually benefits, too, would stop rising. Over the last 30 years, the vast majority of US workers have, in fact, gotten poorer, when you sum up flat real wages, reduced benefits (pensions, medical insurance, etc), reduced public services and raised tax burdens. In economic terms, American "exceptionalism" began to die in the 1970s.

The rich, however, have got much richer since the 1970s, as every measure of US income and wealth inequality attests. The explanation is simple: while workers' average real wages stayed flat, their productivity rose (the goods and services that an average hour's labour provided to employers). More and better machines (including computers), better education, and harder and faster labour effort raised productivity since the 1970s. While workers delivered more and more value to employers, those employers paid workers no more. The employers reaped all the benefits of rising productivity: rising profits, rising salaries and bonuses to managers, rising dividends to shareholders, and rising payments to the professionals who serve employers (lawyers, architects, consultants, etc).

Since the 1970s, most US workers postponed facing up to what capitalism had come to mean for them. They sent more family members to do more hours of paid labour, and they borrowed huge amounts. By exhausting themselves, stressing family life to the breaking point in many households, and by taking on unsustainable levels of debt, the US working class delayed the end of American exceptionalism – until the global crisis hit in 2007. By then, their buying power could no longer grow: rising unemployment kept wages flat, no more hours of work, nor more borrowing, were possible. Reckoning time had arrived. A US capitalism built on expanding mass consumption lost its foundation.

The richest 10-15% – those cashing in on employers' good fortune from no longer-rising wages – helped bring on the crisis by speculating wildly and unsuccessfully in all sorts of new financial instruments (asset-backed securities, credit default swaps, etc). The richest also contributed to the crisis by using their money to shift US politics to the right, rendering government regulation and oversight inadequate to anticipate or moderate the crisis or even to react properly once it hit.

Indeed, the rich have so far been able to use the crisis to widen still further the gulf separating themselves from the rest, to finally bury American exceptionalism. First, they utilised both parties' dependence on their financial support to make sure there would be no mass federal hiring programme for the unemployed (as FDR used between 1934 and 1940). The absence of such a programme guaranteed that real wages would not rise and, with job benefits, would likely fall – as they indeed have done. Second, the rich made sure that the prime focus of government response to the crisis would benefit banks, large corporations and the stock markets. These have more or less "recovered".

Third, the current drive for government budget austerity – especially focused on the 50 states and the thousands of municipalities – forces the mass of people to pick up the costs for the government's unjustly imbalanced response to the crisis. The trillions spent to save the banks and selected other corporations (AIG, GM, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc) were mostly borrowed because the government dared not tax the corporations and the richest citizens to raise the needed rescue funds. Indeed, a good part of what the government borrowed came precisely from those funds left in the hands of corporations and the rich, because they had not been taxed to overcome the crisis. With sharply enlarged debts, all levels of government face the pressure of needing to take too much from current tax revenues to pay interest on debts, leaving too little to sustain public services. So, they demand the people pay more taxes and suffer reduced public services, so that government can reduce its debt burden....
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Just get a fine gubmint job at Redstone...you cant be fired, retirement is great, healthcare is second to none, and almost free, and if youre lucky, once you retire from the USgovernment you can get a job with a contractor making alot more money. Half of the expenditure at Redstone is a complete waste of money.
quote:
Originally posted by JuanHunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Just get a fine gubmint job at Redstone...you cant be fired, retirement is great, healthcare is second to none, and almost free, and if youre lucky, once you retire from the USgovernment you can get a job with a contractor making alot more money. Half of the expenditure at Redstone is a complete waste of money.


**** John, you're right. It is much more honorable to be a welfare leech than have a job on the Arsenal. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck-In-Traffic:
quote:
Originally posted by JuanHunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Just get a fine gubmint job at Redstone...you cant be fired, retirement is great, healthcare is second to none, and almost free, and if youre lucky, once you retire from the USgovernment you can get a job with a contractor making alot more money. Half of the expenditure at Redstone is a complete waste of money.


**** John, you're right. It is much more honorable to be a welfare leech than have a job on the Arsenal. Roll Eyes


With apologies to Judy Collins:

Where are the clowns?
There ought to be clowns:
Don't worry there HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wink
Last edited by rocky
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck-In-Traffic:
quote:
Originally posted by JuanHunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Just get a fine gubmint job at Redstone...you cant be fired, retirement is great, healthcare is second to none, and almost free, and if youre lucky, once you retire from the USgovernment you can get a job with a contractor making alot more money. Half of the expenditure at Redstone is a complete waste of money.


**** John, you're right. It is much more honorable to be a welfare leech than have a job on the Arsenal. Roll Eyes


THERE OUGHT TO BE CLOWNS!!!!!!!!!


Either address the topic or shut your goober luber.
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck-In-Traffic:
quote:
Originally posted by rocky:
quote:
Originally posted by Stuck-In-Traffic:
quote:
Originally posted by JuanHunt:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Just get a fine gubmint job at Redstone...you cant be fired, retirement is great, healthcare is second to none, and almost free, and if youre lucky, once you retire from the USgovernment you can get a job with a contractor making alot more money. Half of the expenditure at Redstone is a complete waste of money.


**** John, you're right. It is much more honorable to be a welfare leech than have a job on the Arsenal. Roll Eyes


THERE OUGHT TO BE CLOWNS!!!!!!!!!


Either address the topic or shut your goober luber.


My "goober luber??????" Big Grin MAN, that didn't even get shouted in fifth grade!!!!!!! Wink

What I was addressing was your ignorance, very redundant, but I was using my "titty twisters" to type!!!!!! Cool
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
Let me guess the solution is higher taxes and more government regulations......


BINGO!!! You are the winner!!! Go get irresponsibly get fired from your job and you will live the luxurious lifestyle of someone who gets A FREE CHECK FROM THE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT EVER LEAVING THE COMFORT OF YOUR EASY CHAIR!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! You are now a free thinker... yes, you are... a liberal Democrat!!! Together we can fix America, one lazy asss piece of crap milkin the gov't for every cent they can, at a time.


Was doing my taxes on Turbo Tax last night and found something out very disturbing. People who pay no federal tax and have a couple of kids and live off the welfare system will be getting back around $8,000. All they have to do is go out and make a few bucks on their own. That with an input of ZERO tax dollars.

The middle classers who pay are paying over $8K in federal taxes get back a fraction if they have kids under 16 and are screwed without the child deduction.

Why on earth would someone want to better themselves for a $12/hr job when they can flip burgers for $8 and then get a $4/hour supplement at the end of the year?
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


You're close dolemite. I consider myself conservative but I don't think the government is "the answer" to our problems. I'm middle class and work for a company so I know I will never be rich. But, if the government were smaller and was taking less of my wages I could live a comfortable life. This could be achieved by anyone else willing to put in the hard work to make something of themselves. Most of the poor are still poor because that is what they except. It will never be the governments job or responsibility to "save" the poor.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
I will not be preached to by a gold digging, social climber from Greece. The woman leaves a slime trail behind her as she goes. She should feel free to return to Greece. They're doing so well there!


So you're saying you disagree with her?


Maybe he's saying that she's an airhead Zsa Zsa wannabe whom he holds in a similar regard as most of you lefties do Sarah Palin. However, I would only be guessing.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


I think you're partly right. Both sides have an unrealistic idea of how it was in the past. Is it any wonder that we all tend to remember the good instead of the bad when thinking about past relationships, childhood memories, etc.? We tend to sentimentalize those memories.

And we have unrealistic expectations about the future as well, which is the point. Achieving the American dream isn't really possible anymore. It was possible in the past because there was a time when hard work would earn you high pay and promotions. Men could get jobs right out of high school and work their way up with hard work alone - jobs that paid enough to provide for a family, buy a house in the suburbs, and enjoy a movie now and then.

It's not possible anymore because, among other things, there aren't many good-paying jobs left in this country, even for the skilled; everyone can't work in retail and healthcare. You have to have a college degree and years of experience just to get your foot in the door now.

If you do go to college, you can expect to be in debt with those loans until at least your mid-30's because college has become nothing more than a rip off. And another thing to keep in mind is we've got more than enough people with college degrees now; that's why they're worthless, or at least not worth as much as they used to be. The U.S. is now saturated with people who have college degrees, but there are just no jobs for them.

One of the articles pointed out:

quote:
The rich, however, have got much richer since the 1970s, as every measure of US income and wealth inequality attests. The explanation is simple: while workers' average real wages stayed flat, their productivity rose (the goods and services that an average hour's labour provided to employers). More and better machines (including computers), better education, and harder and faster labour effort raised productivity since the 1970s. While workers delivered more and more value to employers, those employers paid workers no more. The employers reaped all the benefits of rising productivity: rising profits, rising salaries and bonuses to managers, rising dividends to shareholders, and rising payments to the professionals who serve employers (lawyers, architects, consultants, etc).


So real wages have remained flat since the 1970s, yet the cost of everything those wages buy has skyrocketed: homes, cars, groceries, automobile and health insurance, child care, and on and on.

We need good-paying jobs in this country again to keep up with the rising costs of everything. You simply can't feed a family and pay bills on $8.00/hr. And, I remind you, earning a college degree or learning a useful skill won't earn more than the $8.00/hr if there are no jobs to be had.

Now, do I think the government can solve all these problems and make the American dream attainable again? No, I actually don't. I am a believer in limited government. But we do need some government regulation to keep greed in check. Enron, Wall Street banks....hel-lo!

Bottom line: I don't think government can solve it and I certainly don't think "big business" can solve it. I think it will take both working together - though it will never happen...more unrealistic ideas I suppose - to make the American dream possible for normal folks again.

I don't trust nor want the government to take care of me, but I'd trust the government over greedy corporations who only care about big profits.
Buttercup=

Everything you're pointing out is a result of government intervention in the markets.

quote:
If you do go to college, you can expect to be in debt with those loans until at least your mid-30's because college has become nothing more than a rip off. And another thing to keep in mind is we've got more than enough people with college degrees now; that's why they're worthless, or at least not worth as much as they used to be. The U.S. is now saturated with people who have college degrees, but there are just no jobs for them.


Government subsidized loans can take the blame for that one.

quote:
So real wages have remained flat since the 1970s, yet the cost of everything those wages buy has skyrocketed: homes, cars, groceries, automobile and health insurance, child care, and on and on.


Bad monetary policy. Nixon ruined this in '71.

quote:
But we do need some government regulation to keep greed in check. Enron, Wall Street banks....hel-lo!


Both were government facilitated. I challenge you to find a "big business" that has really screwed the little guy without government help/interference.

quote:
I think it will take both working together - though it will never happen...more unrealistic ideas I suppose - to make the American dream possible for normal folks again.


Government and big business are working together, and have been for a long time. The middle class won't see a higher standard of living until that stops.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
I will not be preached to by a gold digging, social climber from Greece. The woman leaves a slime trail behind her as she goes. She should feel free to return to Greece. They're doing so well there!


So you're saying you disagree with her?


Maybe he's saying that she's an airhead Zsa Zsa wannabe whom he holds in a similar regard as most of you lefties do Sarah Palin. However, I would only be guessing.


Ms. Huffington has intelligence, plus cunning. She had used people to get ahead since she arrived in the US, then dumped them as she found a new venue. I'd call her an arriviste. Huffington post got its start by stealing content from other online publications. Then, she only employed a couple of real reporters and several young geeks to do the dirty work. You still see signs of it. From the comments of many of her readers, they're a nasty bunch.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
I will not be preached to by a gold digging, social climber from Greece. The woman leaves a slime trail behind her as she goes. She should feel free to return to Greece. They're doing so well there!

Disregard the message , kill the messenger ?.

So you're saying you disagree with her?


Maybe he's saying that she's an airhead Zsa Zsa wannabe whom he holds in a similar regard as most of you lefties do Sarah Palin. However, I would only be guessing.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


I think you're partly right. Both sides have an unrealistic idea of how it was in the past. Is it any wonder that we all tend to remember the good instead of the bad when thinking about past relationships, childhood memories, etc.? We tend to sentimentalize those memories.

And we have unrealistic expectations about the future as well, which is the point. Achieving the American dream isn't really possible anymore. It was possible in the past because there was a time when hard work would earn you high pay and promotions. Men could get jobs right out of high school and work their way up with hard work alone - jobs that paid enough to provide for a family, buy a house in the suburbs, and enjoy a movie now and then.

It's not possible anymore because, among other things, there aren't many good-paying jobs left in this country, even for the skilled; everyone can't work in retail and healthcare. You have to have a college degree and years of experience just to get your foot in the door now.

If you do go to college, you can expect to be in debt with those loans until at least your mid-30's because college has become nothing more than a rip off. And another thing to keep in mind is we've got more than enough people with college degrees now; that's why they're worthless, or at least not worth as much as they used to be. The U.S. is now saturated with people who have college degrees, but there are just no jobs for them.

One of the articles pointed out:

quote:
The rich, however, have got much richer since the 1970s, as every measure of US income and wealth inequality attests. The explanation is simple: while workers' average real wages stayed flat, their productivity rose (the goods and services that an average hour's labour provided to employers). More and better machines (including computers), better education, and harder and faster labour effort raised productivity since the 1970s. While workers delivered more and more value to employers, those employers paid workers no more. The employers reaped all the benefits of rising productivity: rising profits, rising salaries and bonuses to managers, rising dividends to shareholders, and rising payments to the professionals who serve employers (lawyers, architects, consultants, etc).


So real wages have remained flat since the 1970s, yet the cost of everything those wages buy has skyrocketed: homes, cars, groceries, automobile and health insurance, child care, and on and on.

We need good-paying jobs in this country again to keep up with the rising costs of everything. You simply can't feed a family and pay bills on $8.00/hr. And, I remind you, earning a college degree or learning a useful skill won't earn more than the $8.00/hr if there are no jobs to be had.

Now, do I think the government can solve all these problems and make the American dream attainable again? No, I actually don't. I am a believer in limited government. But we do need some government regulation to keep greed in check. Enron, Wall Street banks....hel-lo!

Bottom line: I don't think government can solve it and I certainly don't think "big business" can solve it. I think it will take both working together - though it will never happen...more unrealistic ideas I suppose - to make the American dream possible for normal folks again.
I don't trust nor want the government to take care of me, but I'd trust the government over greedy corporations who only care about big profits.


I was listening to Robert Reiche the other night on UCTV, and he was saying just about the same thing you pointed out Butter, Except he went on to talk about what happened before the Great Depression, and what is happened since the late 70's now.
Not a quote here, but my summation:
In the '20's regulation was lax and the big industries took advantage of cheap labor and high productivity to concentrate wealth at the top of the food chain. During this "Guilded Age"
the top 2 or 3% had like 9x% of all the money. People at the bottom of the food chain couldn't afford to buy much of anything, and so quit spending. The flow of money , ie: commerce, just stopped, and the Depression followed.
Roosevelt understood ,what had happened, and set about programs to empower the unions, and for the government to actually hire people at very good wages for that time. This created somewhat of a job seeker's market, and forced big industry to offer competitive wages so as to be able to obtain an actual workforce themselves. This of course is (wait for it Republicans- "redistribution of wealth")
The workers, had more money , and started spending again, therefore easing the Depression before the war actually ended it for good.

Now, does any of that sound familiar to what has happened in recent history ?. After the '70's the Unions started loosing their power, and at the same time due to technology workers productivity went up, way up. Industry didn't need as many workers, so they laid off . Productivity still increased, but workers pay did not increase in any meaningful way, but the result of their labor gave huge profits to the companies, and of course to those running those companies.
The great middle class, made possible by the New Deal and the Fair Deal started to crumble, and to borrow to make up for the lack in real wages.
They specifically borrowed on the equity in their houses, but that eventually crashed.
Now, no wages to buy goods, few jobs, and no more borrowing power left, they stopped spending, stopping commerce and almost taking us back to where it all started in the '30's.

If you have access to UCTV (University of California TV - I have it on satellite) I recommend watching out for when they replay his talk. Well worth the listen.
If you don't have UCTV and Link on this useless cable network, make a call.
seeweed-

You're making assumptions and glossing over some important details.

An increase in productivity, and growing wealth for the top end of Americans did not cause the Great Depressions. The 1920's saw a credit bubble much like the recent housing bubble, only this credit bubble fueled increases in purchasing stocks on margin. When that bubble burst, we entered the Great Depression. Additionally, you're giving all of Roosevelt's programs credit for solving the Great Depressions when much evidence suggests that the New Deal really extended it.

Don't get me wrong, a thriving middle class is good for the economy. However, a thriving middle class cannot be artificially created. Forcing wages beyond what the market would dictate will ultimately lead to more unemployment and fewer middle class people spending money.
quote:
seeweed-

You're making assumptions and glossing over some important details.

An increase in productivity, and growing wealth for the top end of Americans did not cause the Great Depressions. The 1920's saw a credit bubble much like the recent housing bubble, only this credit bubble fueled increases in purchasing stocks on margin. When that bubble burst, we entered the Great Depression. Additionally, you're giving all of Roosevelt's programs credit for solving the Great Depressions when much evidence suggests that the New Deal really extended it.

Don't get me wrong, a thriving middle class is good for the economy. However, a thriving middle class cannot be artificially created. Forcing wages beyond what the market would dictate will ultimately lead to more unemployment and fewer middle class people spending money.



As for FDR's policies ending the Great Depression as liberals want to believe, even Paul Krugman knows the truth that WW2 ended the Depression. I also agree that the number of people in the middle class proved to be an unsustainable bubble because of worldwide economic competition. If an American industry cannot employ modern automated assembly lines to reduce its employment costs, that industry will either move to a country with cheaper labor or it will fail.
Bread Winner...Making Babies!

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning. (Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D.) He told me that a woman in her 20s came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy. She stated, "my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family." He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family. The scam goes like this: The grandma calls the Department of Child and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care.

The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois . Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month. This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs. Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the "breadwinner" for the family.

This is how the ruling class spends our tax dollars.

Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D. Urologist, Danville Polyclinic, LTD
Last edited by junior samples
quote:
Originally posted by junior samples:
Bread Winner...Making Babies!

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning. He told me that a woman in her 20s came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy. She stated, "my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family." He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family. The scam goes like this: The grandma calls the Department of Child and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care.

The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois . Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month. This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs. Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the "breadwinner" for the family.

This is how the ruling class spends our tax dollars.

Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D. Urologist, Danville Polyclinic, LTD



Use the interweb to research your belief system, and you'll find that 99% of what you base your ideals on is actually false, just like the missive in your last post.
quote:
Originally posted by JuanHunt:
quote:
Originally posted by junior samples:
Bread Winner...Making Babies!

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning. He told me that a woman in her 20s came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy. She stated, "my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family." He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family. The scam goes like this: The grandma calls the Department of Child and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care.

The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois . Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month. This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs. Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the "breadwinner" for the family.

This is how the ruling class spends our tax dollars.

Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D. Urologist, Danville Polyclinic, LTD



Use the interweb to research your belief system, and you'll find that 99% of what you base your ideals on is actually false, just like the missive in your last post.



I researched that interweb you mentioned...it said that people like you are idiots! Big Grin
quote:
Use the interweb to research your belief system, and you'll find that 99% of what you base your ideals on is actually false, just like the missive in your last post.


While mass internet postings are usually fraudulent and while I admit that I'm a little lazy in researching Illinois' welfare laws, Truth-or-Fiction reports that the authorship of Junior Samples' post is factual.

quote:
The Truth:
Dr. Sebastian J. Ciancio, of Danville, Illinois, told TruthOrFiction.Com that he is the author of this commentary about a conversation that he had with an emergency room physician. He emailed his commentary syndicated radio host Rush Limbaugh and a few friends. Soon afterwards his commentary went viral on the World Wide Web. Dr. Ciancio also told us that several unauthorized versions of his email have been circulating the Internet that have included photos and might have been modified by others.

Here is the Dr. Ciancio's letter:

Dear Mr. Limbaugh,

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning. He told me that a woman in her 20's came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy. She stated "my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family." He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family. The scam goes like this: The grandma calls the Department of Children and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care. The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois. Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly "Link" card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month. This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs. Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the "breadwinner" in the family.

I hope you share this story with your listeners so that they know how the ruling class spends their tax dollars.

Also, many thanks for the fine service you provide in educating people about the merits of conservative thinking.

Cheers,


Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D.
Urologist, Danville Polyclinic, LTD.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/...rs/b/breadwinner.htm
quote:
Originally posted by Flatus the Ancient:
quote:
Use the interweb to research your belief system, and you'll find that 99% of what you base your ideals on is actually false, just like the missive in your last post.


While mass internet postings are usually fraudulent and while I admit that I'm a little lazy in researching Illinois' welfare laws, Truth-or-Fiction reports that the authorship of Junior Samples' post is factual.

quote:
The Truth:
Dr. Sebastian J. Ciancio, of Danville, Illinois, told TruthOrFiction.Com that he is the author of this commentary about a conversation that he had with an emergency room physician. He emailed his commentary syndicated radio host Rush Limbaugh and a few friends. Soon afterwards his commentary went viral on the World Wide Web. Dr. Ciancio also told us that several unauthorized versions of his email have been circulating the Internet that have included photos and might have been modified by others.

Here is the Dr. Ciancio's letter:

Dear Mr. Limbaugh,

I was speaking to an emergency room physician this morning. He told me that a woman in her 20's came to the ER with her 8th pregnancy. She stated "my momma told me that I am the breadwinner for the family." He asked her to explain. She said that she can make babies and babies get money for the family. The scam goes like this: The grandma calls the Department of Children and Family Services and states that the unemployed daughter is not capable of caring for these children. DCFS agrees and states that the child or children will need to go to foster care. The grandma then volunteers to be the foster parent, and thus receives a check for $1500 per child per month in Illinois. Total yearly income: $144,000 tax-free, not to mention free healthcare (Medicaid) plus a monthly "Link" card entitling her to free groceries, etc, and a voucher for 250 free cell phone minutes per month. This does not even include WIC and other welfare programs. Indeed, grandma was correct in that her fertile daughter is the "breadwinner" in the family.

I hope you share this story with your listeners so that they know how the ruling class spends their tax dollars.

Also, many thanks for the fine service you provide in educating people about the merits of conservative thinking.

Cheers,


Sebastian J. Ciancio, M.D.
Urologist, Danville Polyclinic, LTD.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/...rs/b/breadwinner.htm


While I take at face value that this report is true, in no way does this affect the decline of the middle class.
There is a rapidly shrinking middle class in America due to the policies which were implemented by Reagan in destroying the unions.
This was further compounded during the Clinton administration with the passage of NAFTA.
And the tax breaks under the Bush II administration even further made it more profitable for American companies to produce goods abroad.
This isn't about welfare frauds and those who cheat the system. This has always and alway will be around.
It is about the top 2% of the country now controlling 90% of the wealth and the collapse of the middle class is a systematic objective during the past 30 years by Wall Street and BOTH political parties.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


Well said. Many are hoping for a Utopia that will never again exist. The true controllers of this country, the military, industrial complexes and financial institutions are trying to destroy the very class of people that got them to where they are today. Even China has now realized the value of a middle class of citizenry.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup=

Everything you're pointing out is a result of government intervention in the markets.

quote:
If you do go to college, you can expect to be in debt with those loans until at least your mid-30's because college has become nothing more than a rip off. And another thing to keep in mind is we've got more than enough people with college degrees now; that's why they're worthless, or at least not worth as much as they used to be. The U.S. is now saturated with people who have college degrees, but there are just no jobs for them.


Government subsidized loans can take the blame for that one.

That's not the point. College is no longer affordable, which is why kids apply for loans to pay for it. How do we make college AFFORDABLE again?

quote:
So real wages have remained flat since the 1970s, yet the cost of everything those wages buy has skyrocketed: homes, cars, groceries, automobile and health insurance, child care, and on and on.


Bad monetary policy. Nixon ruined this in '71.

Explain how one president's policies did so much damage.

quote:
But we do need some government regulation to keep greed in check. Enron, Wall Street banks....hel-lo!


Both were government facilitated. I challenge you to find a "big business" that has really screwed the little guy without government help/interference.

Without any government interference, companies like Enron do whatever they want to the consumer, in the name of profits, and hurt them in the process. In the summer of 2000, Enron's manipulative energy trading caused rolling blackouts for two days in L.A. Enron literally turned off the power to millions to boost the price of their stock. Had there been more regulation, that wouldn't have happened. It's just another example of greed gone wild and unchecked.

quote:
I think it will take both working together - though it will never happen...more unrealistic ideas I suppose - to make the American dream possible for normal folks again.


Government and big business are working together, and have been for a long time. The middle class won't see a higher standard of living until that stops.


What do you suggest is the answer, then? How do we make a middle class life possible again in this country?
quote:
Originally posted by T. Barnes:
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


Well said. Many are hoping for a Utopia that will never again exist. The true controllers of this country, the military, industrial complexes and financial institutions are trying to destroy the very class of people that got them to where they are today. Even China has now realized the value of a middle class of citizenry.


I never said I was hoping for utopia; I know better because I'm a realist that way. The things we require for living every day (housing, food, insurance, day care) must once again be affordable in order to have a strong middle class. Simple as that.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by T. Barnes:
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
Buttercup-

After reading that excerpt, there's one thing you need to be considered.

Liberals and Conservatives seem to both long for some idealistic, Ozzy and Harriet version of America that existed in the Truman/Eisenhower era. Conservatives think the culture was better. Liberals miss the willingness to implement social programs at will. Neither will admit that allowing the government to try and engineer a better country facilitated the power grab that has given us a government capable of destroying the middle class. Both sides still want a government that posses that authority to "use common sense" and "do the right thing," but neither side will accept the reality that such a government does not exist. If you give them power in the name of helping others, that power will ultimately be used to screw us all. No amount of warm, fuzzy feelings for either Obama or the Tea Party (depending on your side of the aisle) being elected will change that.


Well said. Many are hoping for a Utopia that will never again exist. The true controllers of this country, the military, industrial complexes and financial institutions are trying to destroy the very class of people that got them to where they are today. Even China has now realized the value of a middle class of citizenry.


I never said I was hoping for utopia; I know better because I'm a realist that way. The things we require for living every day (housing, food, insurance, day care) must once again be affordable in order to have a strong middle class. Simple as that.


Right on, Baby!
quote:
That's not the point. College is no longer affordable, which is why kids apply for loans to pay for it. How do we make college AFFORDABLE again?


When you subsidize anything, you get more of it and it gets more expensive. Tuition is no different. If you want lower tuition, you have to lower the demand for a college degree. You can't expect more and more kids to get a college education, and colleges just benevolently cut there prices year after year.

quote:
Explain how one president's policies did so much damage.


Look at any chart that tracks inflation (which primarily erodes the purchasing power of the middle class while increasing the value of assets held by the wealthy) and you will see it begins in '71.

Nixon Shock

quote:
Without any government interference, companies like Enron do whatever they want to the consumer, in the name of profits, and hurt them in the process. In the summer of 2000, Enron's manipulative energy trading caused rolling blackouts for two days in L.A. Enron literally turned off the power to millions to boost the price of their stock. Had there been more regulation, that wouldn't have happened. It's just another example of greed gone wild and unchecked.


Enron was tied to the federal government as well as state and local government around the country. The rolling blackouts in California were a result of Enron manipulating government policy. There is literally no way you can separate Enron from government, so you can't say that more government would have stopped Enron. So again, please name a "big business" that has really screwed the little guy without the government being involved.

quote:
What do you suggest is the answer, then? How do we make a middle class life possible again in this country?


I don't know, and neither do policy makers. You can rest assured that any politician with a plan for the government to do more to help the middle class will actually screw them in the long run.
I'm not disputing that, Juan.

Buttercup seems too eager to blame everything on corporate greed, and while that certainly plays a major role in things like the Enron collapse and the housing bubble, it's not the only issue. When government creates a business environment that is ripe for exploiting loopholes, I'm never eager to trust government to solve problems they helped create. There seems to be a general fallacy among the left that the government is capable of making business behave ethically, and that's clearly not true.

Add Reply

Post

Untitled Document
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×