the Eucharist.

Jesus Explained The Eucharist The Day After Feeding The 5000

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him." John 6:53-56

Ok. Mr Gray, I am truly curious how you explain this. Directly from the Word of God. How do you reason out of the Eucharist?
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Jesus Explained The Eucharist The Day After Feeding The 5000

"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him." John 6:53-56

Ok. Mr. Gray, I am truly curious how you explain this. Directly from the Word of God. How do you reason out of the Eucharist?

Hi VP,

Actually, your own Catholic Church disproves your belief of this Scripture passage. According to the Roman Catholic church -- the elements do not become the body and blood of Jesus Christ UNTIL a priest has said a few magic words over them. So, on one hand you tell me that Jesus declares this to be so -- but, then, your church tells me that the priest and his magic words are what make it so. Which is it?

Since we both are not qualified to explain this; I will turn to a man who was Director of a Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries in the Philippines for ten years; Dr. Anthony Pezzotta has advanced degrees from Roman Catholic seminaries in Italy, England, Spain, and Germany -- and he has earned advanced degrees from Protestant seminaries in the United Stages. Dr. Pezzotta was Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines. So, I would venture to say that this man knows both Roman Catholic theology as well as Protestant theology and can speak authoritatively on the subject.

In his book "Truth Encounters," pages 96-99, Dr. Pezzotta tells us:

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The Doctrine Of Transubstantiation

According to the Catholic canons, upon pronouncement by the priest, the elements of bread and wine truly become the body and blood of Christ. This is the doctrine of transubstantiation (change of substance). There are two main passages of Scripture that the Catholic Church uses to prove this doctrine. The first is Jesus' words in the upper room: "This is My body" (Matthew 26:26), and "This is My blood of the covenant" (Matthew 26:28).

The argument goes like this: If Jesus says that the bread and wine are His body and blood, who are we to say that He means they symbolize His body and blood? Are we not supposed to take His word literally?

It is true that we are always supposed to accept the Word of God for what it says. The Bible is written in human languages, which have a definite grammar. All languages frequently use what are called figures of speech, expressions which by their very nature are obviously figurative. For example, Jesus in John 14:6: "I am the Way" (hodos in the Greek, meaning literally road). Do we take His words to mean that Jesus is literally the road that goes to the Father? Obviously, Jesus was using a figure of speech. He meant that just as we need a road to any destination, through Him alone we go to the Father. So we translate the Greek word hodos, i.e, road, to be the word "way."

The example in John 10:7 is even clearer. Jesus said: "I am the gate for the sheep." We all understand the two figures of speech in this one sentence. Surely Jesus is no gate! We are not sheep! But it is a beautiful and powerful expression which helps us clearly understand that as the sheep must pass through the gate to find green pastures, so we must all pass through Him to go to heaven. By calling men "sheep," He also conveys His love and care for us as a shepherd for his sheep! The Bible is full of figurative expressions, which Catholics also accept.

Jesus often represented himself in a figure. He said He was the light, the gate, the good shepherd, the road, the true vine. He did not mean that He was a candle, or a gate, or a bush. He was speaking figuratively. He did that frequently. It should not surprise us that He would use figures of bread and wine in the same way.

Luke and Paul quote Jesus as saying: "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25). They do not follow Matthew's quote: "This is My blood" (Matthew 26:28). (Jesus said it both ways, Matthew quoted the shorter phrase, Paul and Luke the longer. The longer is an interpretation of the shorter). Paul and Luke definitely understood Jesus to be speaking figuratively.

The most natural interpretation of Jesus' words is, "This represents My body." If someone holds up a picture, points to it, and says, "This is me," the people around him understand what he is saying. They would not suppose that he meant, "This picture actually is my body. My body and blood are really present under the appearance of ink and paper." In fact, they would not even entertain such an absurdity unless the one holding the picture explained himself to them. There is no record of any such explanation by the Lord Jesus. He simply held up the bread and said, "This is My body." That was all that was needed. The disciples understood what He meant.

Jesus referred to the wine as "fruit of the vine" after the words of consecration were spoken and the transformation supposedly took place (Matthew 26:29). It was wine before the pronouncement. It was still wine afterward.

Suppose for the sake of argument that Jesus literally meant the bread He was holding in His hands was His own flesh and blood. He did not say to the apostles, "I will place My body into your hands every time you speak the words of consecration." No such explanation was ever given, though it would certainly have been necessary if the disciples were to understand Him. The whole idea is foreign to the teaching of Jesus as recorded by the apostles in the Scripture.

We can take this argument one step further. Suppose Jesus gave the apostles authority to speak "the words of consecration" and change elements of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. Still, He did not give them permission to pass this authority on to someone else. There is no record of any such apostolic succession.

The second passage of Scripture the Roman Catholic Church uses in trying to defend the doctrine of transubstantiation is John 6:53-55:

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink."

Catholics take it for granted that these words of Jesus were uttered in connection with the last supper. This is NOT the case! The context of John 6:50-51 is the feeding of the 5,000 on the shores of the Sea of Galilee during Jesus' public ministry, long before the experiences in the upper room. His audience on the shores of the Sea of Galilee was mostly unbelieving Jews. In the upper room, He was speaking to His beloved disciples. The disciples could not have understood these verses as instructions concerning the ordinance of holy communion -- since the "sacrament" had not yet been instituted -- and would not be instituted until the gathering in the upper room two years later.

Jesus had just fed the five thousand people with a few loaves of bread. This miracle, which demonstrated that Jesus was the prophet "like Moses," prophesied about in the Old Testament, gave Jesus an opportunity to illustrate a great truth concerning Himself. He compares Himself to the manna that fell from heaven in the wilderness, giving life to the wandering Jews. He claimed He is the true bread from heaven Who gives life to the world. In the process He urged His hearers to believe in Him.

35 "I am the bread of life. . . 36 But as I told you, you have seen Me and still do not believe. . . 40 For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life. . . 47 I tell you the truth, He who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. . . 51. . .If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6:35-36, 40, 47-48, 51).

The context teaches that we eat the true bread from heaven, not by participation in a sacrament, but by believing in Jesus.

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VP, I pray this gives you a better understanding of what actually is transpiring when we take communion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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VP, I pray this gives you a better understanding of what actually is transpiring when we take communion.


Actually, please DON'T. I am not "in communion" with you, nor do I wish to be. I am confident in my faith, have defended my faith, and will continue to do so ad nauseum. .
Please do not pray that my understanding of the Holy Eucharist will meet yours.
"Paul and Luke definitely understood Jesus to be speaking figuratively. "

How on God's green earth can you tell me with any certainty what Paul and Luke understood??
You are completely out of line, Mr. Gray, and I would implore you to refrain from "teaching" about the Catholic Church. You have no authority to do so, and you do not have the authority to tell ANYONE which scripture is literal, which is figurative, etc.
Are these your words? I cant really tell where you copy and paste your links, but I guess since you posted it, you adopt it as your own.
Sorry, have tried to be polite, but I am calling BS on you, my friend.
Why don't you read Scott Hahn's material. He will gladly pick up where I left off. I recommend "The Journey Home" or "Rome, Sweet Rome". I know Dr. Hahn will do justice to the false teachings of your disgruntled Dr. Pettzotto
And he does it lovingly. Happy Reading to you!
Don't adore the Blessed Eucharist much, do we Billy Boy? It is so we may live in Him and He in us. By faith we recreate His sacrifice and by the power of the Holy Spirit, the wine and bread become the Body and Blood of Our Lord, through our faith and the power of the apostles passed on through their representatives on earth.

You do know that the overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist, don't you? Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, the Copts, the Ancient Church of the East, etc. Just because you do not is no reason to expect others to follow some sour grapes heretofore unknown "theologian." How do you know what Luke meant, he said what he said, and now you want to parse it to be something else. Fine. That is called hubris. You excel at it Crystal Handler.

Your teachings are not even original: they are just a parrot repeating what others have written. Can you not come up with your own ideas? What was the theological reasoning or historical analysis from your rant Billy? Nowhere. They were opinion which is repeated like a parrot does for a sunflower seed, only stated as "fact."

It is a question of faith. Most who claim to be Christians have it: they see the spiritual alongside the material, the metaphysical beside the physical realms, but you do not.

Too bad the 5 Mile Act cannot be resurrected and modified to the 500 Word Post Limit Act for your behalf.

Now go and feel superior by being assured of your salvation no matter what came after the magical prayer. You are a poop stirrer and nothing else.
quote:
Actually, your own Catholic Church disproves your belief of this Scripture passage. According to the Roman Catholic church -- the elements do not become the body and blood of Jesus Christ UNTIL a priest has said a few magic words over them. So, on one hand you tell me that Jesus declares this to be so -- but, then, your church tells me that the priest and his magic words are what make it so. Which is it?


Completely untrue. Please refrain from posting falsehoods about the Roman Catholic, or any other church. This is the opinion of ONE MAN,who is no longer in communion with the Catholic Church. You cut and paste his opinions because he is anti-Catholicism.
MAGIC WORDS?? In your Church, they are prayer. In my Church you ridicule to the level of "Magic"????
This is a prayer for the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe in the Holy Spirit either, Mr. Gray?
Do you think Jesus said
"Do this in memory of me"
Just for kicks? He TAUGHT of the Eucharist at the Feast of 5000. And CELEBRATED the Eucharist at the Last Supper. Get your facts straight before you copy and paste someone else's opinion and declare it as Truth. You are deceived, and are attempting to lead others to deception.
Aude had it right- it is by Faith and the power of the Holy Spirit that transubstantiation occurs.It is a miracle, and I am truly sorry that you cannot comprehend.
Again I will emphasize: "WE" (as in you and I) are not in communion- you get crackers and grape juice, if that's what you hunger for.
I need,and humbly receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.Blood shed for the atonement of sins. Have mercy on us and on the whole world.
This is what I mean by using our differing interpretations to separate the one church, the body of Christ. One takes a literal interpretation of these scriptures and another does not. Big whoop.

Regardless if you call is the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, Communion, etc., it is done in remembrance of Christ with reverence & preparation as directed by scripture.

"It is with your heart that you believe and are justified."...we're all doing what we believe in our heart is right before God. If you need to receive it as physical flesh and blood, do so. If you need to receive it as symbolic of flesh and blood, do so. Either way, your heart and motive for partaking is right before God.

There is one body with one head, Jesus Christ. If you have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, you are part of this one body of believers. Like it or not, we family. Brang on the fried chicken and collard greens, y'all. Big Grin
I'm with you 100%, Joy.
except for the collard greens part.

If I have accomplished one thing, it's that I am stronger in my faith than ever. I am sorry for the people who belittle it, and try to find fault. Because they are the true dividers. I have never been so defensive in my life- and I'm thankful for the challenge! If we could all use that to strengthen ourselves, and not tear eachother down, we'd all be a lot better off!
However, I get the feeling that "some" take great pleasure in attempting to tear others down- so it is in the real world, and thus, so it is online. *sigh..*
Hi Joy,

You are absolutely correct. All who have, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- believed and received His "paid in full" free gift of eternal salvation -- are Christian brothers and sisters, joint heirs with Jesus Christ -- and eternal members of the Family of God. With this I could not agree more.

However, VP did ask me, "Ok. Mr Gray, I am truly curious how you explain this. Directly from the Word of God. How do you reason out of the Eucharist?"

I responded with the best answer I could give -- the testimony of a man I personally know who, after an extensive Roman Catholic education, after being Director of Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries for ten years -- left Roman Catholicism because he could no longer teach what he himself did not believe. This man, Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, is far better qualified to answer VP's question than me. So, I gave VP the answer to his question which Dr. Pezzotta has written.

Did I expect VP to accept Dr. Pezzotta's qualification and answer? No. But, I answered VP to the best of my ability.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

AND TO WHAT YOU WROTE:

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The "magic words" are the words of Our Lord Himself at his Last Supper: "This is my body." and "This is my blood." Most have an epiclesis where the Holy Spirit is invoked to change the bread and wine through our faith into the Lord's Blessed Body and Blood. He also has to touch the bread and wine. A mute presiding at the Eucharist could very well sign the words or use a touch screen so long as he touched them.

The man presiding is not performing a magic act, rather reenacting exactly what Christ Himself told us to do. The change comes through the Holy Spirit through the faith of those assembled through the memorial of the Paschal Mysteries.

"Christ is dead. Christ is risen. Christ will come again."

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive Thee, but only say the word and I shall be healed."
Could be that the Body of Christ is much like the Human Body in that there are parts of the body (human) that have to be kept apart from other parts yet function within the same body. If stomach bile or bacteria that are in the intestines get loosed into the body then it could be fatal to the human body. Sounds like and seems like many in Christ body don't interact too well, together, at times.

I'm not saying that there are issues that are not critical and essential for Christians to believe in .. those issues of Dogma but all too often we spend a great deal of time arguing about doctrinal issues. One would wonder what Christ would say to address all the conflicts within His Church?
How is this magic any different than the magic of breathing life into a lump of dirt or extracting a bone to create a Adam and Eve?

I'm kinda confused, Bill. It seems to me the Catholics have out-literaled you on this one. Of course, without the Catholic Church, the Bible wouldn't exist and we would all be praying to Allah five times a day.
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Originally posted by gbrk:
If stomach bile or bacteria that are in the intestines get loosed into the body then it could be fatal to the human body.


If the Times Daily had printed this statement, I wonder what your reaction would be. Really I don't. Roll Eyes

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