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I have learned over the years that all evangelical Christians have memorized the same handbook. They all regurgitate the same slogans, e.g., “You hate God,” “Out of context;” parrot the same threat, “You will stand before God on judgment day;“ incessantly quote irrelevant passages from the Bible, e.g., “He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end;” make claims about biblical “science” without ever supporting them, e.g., “Many scientists state that evolution is a flawed theory;” rewrite history, e.g., “America was founded by devout Christians as a Christian nation.”

They unanimously repeat the same story about becoming a believer. They confess that they had once been an evil atheist. Yes, Satan had blinded them from the truth. But in a moment of divine revelation God had opened their hearts and minds to the truth. They had been yanked away from Satan’s clutches and are now saved.

This, of course, is nothing more than one more lie used in an attempt to defend oneself against the forces of reason. It is inconceivable that a person who was knowledgeable enough to reject superstitions and myths earlier in their life could possibly forsake reason in favor of religion at a later period of development. Yes, there are isolated cases where this could happen. A person could have suffered a trauma that caused sever disorientation with associated mental lapses. They chose to rely on a mental crutch. However, as a rule--once a person of reason, always a person of reason.

Fortunately for the fate of humankind, the opposite is occurring. More and more individuals are becoming better educated and less intimidated by supernatural threats. The vocal religious majority is being exposed as unethical hypocrites--resulting in a loss of respect and authority. As individuals begin to question the absurdities that they once were afraid to question, reason comes closer to victory in the war against archaic dogma.

Reason bless America!
Original Post
I'll let God do the talking for me!

18 -23 But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.
quote:
Originally posted by ngt2293:
I'll let God do the talking for me!

18 -23 But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.


You are just one more evangelical telling us what we already know--the Judeo-Christian god is a cruel, vindictive, capricious, irrational fiend. He is the ultimate egomaniac who wants everyone to worship him, but he has done absolutely nothing to merit mankind’s adulation. Please, do not tell us about his barbaric human sacrifice unless you can provide evidence that this contributed to the betterment of humankind.

What evidence can you provide that God “holds the whole world in his hands.“ Just more evangelical gibberish. If this guy had anything to do with creating the whole world, he is a miserable failure as a craftsman.
quote:
Originally posted by tigrtrek:
Link

So you're saying the world will be a more rational place without religion? Maybe not.


There is some truth to that. In fact, there's not much I can disagree with in that article.

Great Britain is supposedly about 60% atheist. Despite that, a great many of them follow astrology and believe in fairies and trolls and practice all sorts of pseudoscience such as chiropractic and folk remedies. It is a strange dichotomy.

Because of that, I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with my atheist brethren when they say the world would be a better place without religion. I think the world would be a better place without the stupidity of fundamentalism that so many here represent.

Unfortunately, I don't think that is a realistic possibility. Fundies are incapable of being reasoned with. The best we can hope for is a continued push to keep our public schools secular (that means "neutral" with respect to a god and not "anti-god" as some stupid people claim). We need to teach science -- ALL the science and engineering and math and critical thinking.

If I were ruler of the world, I would certainly like to see a course on "moral philosophy" taught in all schools from the earliest ages but that, too, is just not realistic.

So I'll continue to rally against fundamentalism wherever I see it, change it when I can and continue to hope for a better day.
quote:
Surprisingly, while increased church attendance and membership in a conservative denomination has a powerful negative effect on paranormal beliefs, higher education doesn't. Two years ago two professors published another study in Skeptical Inquirer showing that, while less than one-quarter of college freshmen surveyed expressed a general belief in such superstitions as ghosts, psychic healing, haunted houses, demonic possession, clairvoyance and witches, the figure jumped to 31% of college seniors and 34% of graduate students.


So much for the 'smarter' atheist theory.


Any one want to admit that level of education does not affect personal beliefs?

Any one?
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
quote:
Surprisingly, while increased church attendance and membership in a conservative denomination has a powerful negative effect on paranormal beliefs, higher education doesn't. Two years ago two professors published another study in Skeptical Inquirer showing that, while less than one-quarter of college freshmen surveyed expressed a general belief in such superstitions as ghosts, psychic healing, haunted houses, demonic possession, clairvoyance and witches, the figure jumped to 31% of college seniors and 34% of graduate students.


So much for the 'smarter' atheist theory.


Any one want to admit that level of education does not affect personal beliefs?

Any one?


Of course it does. It is no secret that atheists tend to be more highly educated (and have higher IQs) than non-atheists.
Link
The WSJ article actually makes a good point. In the absence of religion AND education, people will find something ridiculous to believe in. Take UFO's and astrology, for example.

It's still important to have a worldwide, frank, adult discussion about religion, however. People seldom go to war over astrology. As long as religion sets itself up as the one and only answer to the question of ultimate and commonplace reality, there will be resistance to reason, science, and philosophy.

quote:
Surprisingly, while increased church attendance and membership in a conservative denomination has a powerful negative effect on paranormal beliefs


Religion is a paranormal belief.

DF
For fun. The sites lists IQ of the deceased as well.


Link


The Highest IQs On Record
People Still Alive

* Physicist / Engineer Kim Ung-yong has a verified IQ of 210
* Bouncer Christopher Michael Langan has a verified IQ of 195
* Engineer Philip Emeagwali is alleged to have an IQ of 190
* World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov is alleged to have an IQ of 190
* Author Marilyn Vos Savant has a verified IQ of 186
* Actor James Woods is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Politician John H. Sununu is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Mathematician Andrew Wiles is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* World Chess Champion Judith Polgar is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* Chess Grandmaster Robert Byrne is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* World Chess Champion Bobby Fischer is alleged to have an IQ of 167
* Mathematician / Physicist Stephen W. Hawking is alleged to have an IQ of over 160
* Microsoft Founder Paul Allen is alleged to have an IQ of over 160
* Actress Sharon Stone is alleged to have an IQ of 154
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
So according to your reference, only scientists are smart people?

Also, that data is 20 years old and used SKEPTIC magazine as one of its sources.

Isn't that like me using 'Answers in Genesis' to say religious people are more moral?

Try again.


If you had scrolled down farther in the site, you would have found:

"Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious."

The fact that a study is 20 years old works against you. Since Americans are less religious today, more intelligent will be atheists.

I didn't know that Genises was only 20 years old. I certainly didn't know that it had anything to do with morality.
quote:


Posted 20 July 2009 09:35 AM Hide Post
So according to your reference, only scientists are smart people?

Also, that data is 20 years old and used SKEPTIC magazine as one of its sources.

Isn't that like me using 'Answers in Genesis' to say religious people are more moral?


SKEPTIC is a fine magazine. It certainly does contain articles good for nothing but entertainment, but its scholarly side is robust and well-received. SKEPTIC would never ask you to believe it's academic articles on faith; they are well-footnoted. Go check them out yourself, and people certainly do. Their Forum section, where knowledgeable people thrash the academics presented in that mag is, to say the least, lively.

The phenomenon of intelligence/religiosity is much, much older than 20 years.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." ~Seneca the Younger

DF
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Any one want to admit that level of education does not affect personal beliefs?
Any one?


I dunno about that but there certainly is a correlation between religiosity and education. Does that mean that people drop religion as tney get more educated or does it mean that smarter people tend to go into higher education? I suspect the latter but I dunno.

In any case, correlation does not necessarily suggest causation but there is certainly a profound link between atheism and education level - especially in the sciences.

Link
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
The Highest IQs On Record
People Still Alive

* Physicist / Engineer Kim Ung-yong has a verified IQ of 210
* Bouncer Christopher Michael Langan has a verified IQ of 195
* Engineer Philip Emeagwali is alleged to have an IQ of 190
* World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov is alleged to have an IQ of 190
* Author Marilyn Vos Savant has a verified IQ of 186
* Actor James Woods is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Politician John H. Sununu is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is alleged to have an IQ of 180
* Mathematician Andrew Wiles is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* World Chess Champion Judith Polgar is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* Chess Grandmaster Robert Byrne is alleged to have an IQ of 170
* World Chess Champion Bobby Fischer is alleged to have an IQ of 167
* Mathematician / Physicist Stephen W. Hawking is alleged to have an IQ of over 160
* Microsoft Founder Paul Allen is alleged to have an IQ of over 160
* Actress Sharon Stone is alleged to have an IQ of 154


I'd bet a dollar that most of those people were atheists . . . Then again, Sharron Stone recently blamed a large earthquake in China on "bad karma" . . .
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Many of the liberal arts professors in colleges are atheist or agnostic; they are not shy of sharing their beliefs with their students. Many of these students are quite rebellious and impressionable, and they carry their professor's beliefs as their own as they go forward.

Sort to the same way Hillary became a socialist.

Most of my professors made no attempt to hide their atheism. This did not influence me, as I was an atheist long before I got to college. However, if I had not already been an atheist, I surely would have been after Philosophy 101 with the late, great rationalist Brand Blanshard.
Miles, one excerpt from your original post exemplifies how you are carelessly given to rank, overblown and incorrect generalizations when attempting--as you often vainly do--to taint "all evangelical Christians" with the same tattered and overworked tar brush. You say, "They unanimously repeat the same story about becoming a believer. They confess that they had once been an evil atheist."

Ridiculous on its face, Miles. The majority of evangelical Christians never were atheists; thus "They" could not all have been unanimous in repeatedly recounting your contrived version of their allegedly unanimous experience.

But, if you had been right about this, Miles, then you and other atheists surely would have cause to worry, since if all of the millions of evangelical Christians were indeed defectors from atheism, then such a trend would, in a short time, eradicate virtually all atheists. Truth be told, Miles, for about 2000 years, there never have been anywhere near as many atheists as there are--or have been--"evangelical Christians."

Face it, Miles, things are not so just because you, in your pompous self-inflated manner, just decide to say they are so!
Last edited by beternU
1. To say 'SKEPTIC' magazine would have an unbiased poll is ridiculous, thus the reason I mentioned 'Answers in Genesis'.
2. I would bet the bouncer believes in God, therefore he is keeping people from becoming rowdy.
3. A professor spouting "There is no God", is the same as one yelling "You are all going to Hell".
Thank you Zip, you said it first.
However, that seems to be OK with our Atheist friends.

As for intelligence and religion, I cannot find any study that would be considered unbiased. A science based one will point to lower intelligence for a belief in God, while a religious backed one will have the opposite outcome.

I would venture to guess that like all entities in the world, both sides have their geniuses and their idiots.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Miles, one excerpt from your original post exemplifies how you are carelessly given to rank, overblown and incorrect generalizations when attempting--as you often vainly do--to taint "all evangelical Christians" with the same tattered and overworked tar brush. You say, "They unanimously repeat the same story about becoming a believer. They confess that they had once been an evil atheist."

Ridiculous on its face, Miles. The majority of evangelical Christians never were atheists; thus "They" could not all have been unanimous in repeatedly recounting your contrived version of their allegedly unanimous experience.

But, if you had been right about this, Miles, then you and other atheists surely would have cause to worry, since if all of the millions of evangelical Christians were indeed defectors from atheism, then such a trend would, in a short time, eradicate virtually all atheists. Truth be told, Miles, for about 2000 years, there never have been anywhere near as many atheists as there are--or have been--"evangelical Christians."

Face it, Miles, things are not so just because you, in your pompous self-enflated manner, just decide to say they are so!



Excellent response BeternU.
L,

You are correct. It would be foolish to think that a SKEPTIC poll would be unbiased.

But we're not talking about a poll. We are talking about a scientific paper that records the hits and misses, and comes to a conclusion.

You are free to read the article and come to a different conclusion, but you likely would not, seeing the evidence for their conclusion.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
1. To say 'SKEPTIC' magazine would have an unbiased poll is ridiculous, thus the reason I mentioned 'Answers in Genesis'.


LMM,

It is not an "atheist" magazine. It is a very well respected magazine devoted to skeptical inquiry. It and its readers insist on empirical evidence for every view.

It is one of the best sources for excellent, peer reviewed critical examinations for all sorts of interesting issues such as Big Foot, UFO,s, acupuncture, pseudosciences, anti-vaccination movement, and so on.

Why in the world would you dismiss it as invalie? Because it occasionally discusses the origins of religion form a skeptical standpoint? I would expect such vehemence against asking tough questions from the Bloviator but not you.

quote:

As for intelligence and religion, I cannot find any study that would be considered unbiased. A science based one will point to lower intelligence for a belief in God, while a religious backed one will have the opposite outcome.


As with any study, one must ask "Does this make sense?" Seriously, LMM, you of all people should innately know that there is a correlation fundamentalism and lack of education. You live in the middle of rural people who qualify that observation every day.

You appear to have a tendency of late of denying facts that do not suit your views. It's quite unbecoming of you.
I deny opinions, not facts, especially contradicting 'facts'.

How many religious people would buy 'Skeptic' magazine?

How many Atheists would buy Catholic Review?

Bill may be someone you despise but I would hardly call the man ignorant. He has an extensive background in electronics.

What about the atheist professors spouting their beliefs? No comments?
"Ridiculous on its face, Miles. The majority of evangelical Christians never were atheists; thus "They" could not all have been unanimous in repeatedly recounting your contrived version of their allegedly unanimous experience."

Of course they were never atheists. I do not believe for a second that they were. I don't give them that much intelligence. However they will say anything to "prove" that evangelical Christianity is the "truth" and atheism is the work of Satan. As a result these stretchers of the truth spin tales of how they once were in Satans clutches and then saw the light from God and are now blessand and saved.

Certainly it is all BS, but then they never let integrity stand in the way of evangelizing. Ask Bill or Nash if they were once "non-believers."
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
I deny opinions, not facts, especially contradicting 'facts'.

How many religious people would buy 'Skeptic' magazine?

How many Atheists would buy Catholic Review?


I'm sure I would find it interesting. I subscribe to a podcast devoted wholly to Creationism/Intelligent Design. I watch Benny Hinn when I can and listen to AFR radio quite often - especially their news. I thoroughly enjoy challenging my own deeply held viewpoints.

But perhaps that's just me.

quote:
What about the atheist professors spouting their beliefs? No comments?


We are talking about adults in a learning institution. I see absolutely no problem at all with that. College should be a place where your views - no matter what they are - are challenged and debated. I'd also be in favor of a professor sharing his religious viewpoints in his class for the same reasons.

In my world, there is no such thing as a subject that should not be discussed by adults. I am for free and open inquiry for all adults. How 'bout you?

Now, if we are talking about an instructor in a pubic school sharing his atheism with his underage students, that is an entirely different matter. I would have his head.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
Most kids when they get to college don't have any idea what they are. But I would submit to you that "evangelizing" atheism in a classroom environment is morally equivalent to evangelizing christianity. You're in a position of authority over a trapped audience. You should teach the lesson, period. Leave your philosophy in your home.


It would be impossible to teach a course on epistomology without without discussing the empiricism of David Hume and A.J. Ayre.

A course on existentialism requires studying Jean-Paul Sartre and Martin Heidegger.

Studing French literature means lectures on Albert Camus.

Required reading for modern philosophy means reading "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russell.

The History of Science involves the Age of Enlightenment and the trials and tribulations of Galileo.

Biology class emphasises Charles Darwin and of course rejects creationism.

It would be impossible to teach many courses without highlighting the veracity atheism.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
"Ridiculous on its face, Miles. The majority of evangelical Christians never were atheists; thus "They" could not all have been unanimous in repeatedly recounting your contrived version of their allegedly unanimous experience."

Of course they were never atheists. I do not believe for a second that they were. I don't give them that much intelligence. However they will say anything to "prove" that evangelical Christianity is the "truth" and atheism is the work of Satan. As a result these stretchers of the truth spin tales of how they once were in Satans clutches and then saw the light from God and are now blessand and saved.

Certainly it is all BS, but then they never let integrity stand in the way of evangelizing. Ask Bill or Nash if they were once "non-believers."


In any case, you are still performing a radical stereotyping of evangelical Christians, Miles. I have known literally thousands of evangelical Christians and I have known only a relative few evangelical Christians who formerly were atheists and NONE who, per your blithe and unsubstantiated assertion, concocted some bogus personal history to describe their personal religious history. The FACTS do NOT bear out your hostile and woefully inaccurate slurs.
David, to use the official term used in historiography is a "lumper," while Better is a "splitter." One may work well in discussions involving longue duree, while the other better for corte. Neither invalidates the other, just that one ought never lump too many "thems" into a group, for fear that "they" may become "us." One should also never invade Russia unless absolute victory is assured before winter and the spring muds. The Golden Horde was the only group able to pull that one off successfully, before there was a significant population there and well-organized government.
quote:
In my world, there is no such thing as a subject that should not be discussed by adults. I am for free and open inquiry for all adults. How 'bout you?

Now, if we are talking about an instructor in a pubic school sharing his atheism with his underage students, that is an entirely different matter. I would have his head.


Agree to both. What ticked me off in our local HS was religions of other worlds could be discussed, but not Christianity. They even had a Kwanzaa celebration, which is not even a religion at all.

If it is college level, all areas should be explored. Every religion, belief, non-belief and even the paranormal.

Personally, I like ghosts. I have a few that visit me regularly. Like an old friend.
I was careless in my statement concerning evangelicals. I retract my statement. I should have said SOME evangelicals have said to me, "I used to be an atheist like you until I opened my heart to God and Jesus." This not so subtley means, "I am a wonderful Christian while you are a piece of garbage." This less than subtle means of insulting atheists is not as uncommon a ploy as you indicate.

"From the age of twelve until I was fifty -- I ran from God, I was not a believer, I was not a Christian." Guess who?

Your protest was just a bit hypocritical. Evangelicals tend to make generalizations about ALL atheists that are less than flattering.
David has now met the requirement and used the word "some" so all is well in the world, except that Jim Demint is still a single term back bencher in the minority who might handle snakes as a religious rite and wishes to play Pierre in War and Peace.*

________________________________________________

*Nota bene, Gentle Reader, to date, Senator Demint has not been -- to this author's knowledge -- yet seen handling snakes.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
What ticked me off in our local HS was religions of other worlds could be discussed, but not Christianity.


I've not witnessed that.

My younguns learned about world religions, including Christianity, in history class where it belongs.

In fact, there is an organization called Fellowship of Christian Athletes that meets at the flagpole about once a month (before school officially starts) where kids get a dose of preachin' and prayin' right there at school. I hand deliver my child to this ceremony.

If you ever hear of any sort of mistreatment of religion or a celebration (conducted by school administration) of one religions ceremony at the expense of another in direct violation of the 1st Amendment, I beg you to tell me about it.
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
"From the age of twelve until I was fifty -- I ran from God, I was not a believer, I was not a Christian." Guess who?


Ooh-ooh! Call on me! Call on me!

Our dear Nash also claims to be a former atheist and uses his "conversion" as empirical proof that his god exists (and others don't).

I wish I had a dollar from every evangelical that has claimed to be a non believer, ex con, druggie, bank robber, rapist, etc, etc absurdum infinitum.
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
When a guy teaching advanced calculus starts spouting forth on matters religious (or, if you will, a-religious) there should probably be a line drawn.


Two words: Ten your.

I agree that when a student pays 500 bucks to be taught calculus, he should not be compelled to listen to a sermon during that class. On the other hand, a professor in a college setting is certainly allowed great amount of latitude in his/her delivery.

But the chain of command seems to work fine for these sorts of things. Tenure laws allow for dismissal of non-performing proffs.

But when a student professes a 6000 year old earth during a geology lecture on rock dating, he certainly should expect a "sermon" from the atheist geologist why that is stupid.

When a student professes that the bible accurately states that Pi equals 3.5, the math proff certainly should have a discussion.

When a pre-med student reveals that he will rely on God for guidance during a surgical procedure, his proff certainly should expel the fundy from the medical field forever. Wink

So there are times when religious or a-religious proselytizing is necessary in an adult learning institution.
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
I wonder what the Evangelical Handbook would say about this:Link


Upon watching this, Evangelicals may make blanket statements about atheists lumping them together using insulting remarks. The following are such statements from Letters to the Editor in Alabama newspapers. I responded to all of these which made me a “Christian hater.“

"Atheists stay in bed all morning and stay up late at night reading a salacious bestseller."
"As for the secularists, they should simply be ignored."
"To allow atheists in public offices is a mighty dangerous thing."
"If a person can't determine between right and wrong, he or she has no right making decisions for the public."
"You cannot love your neighbor without first loving God."
"Secular humanism is Satan's masterpiece."
"Humanism is the religion of Lucifer."
"Humanists not so opened minded."
"Because atheists believe the universe will someday come to an end, there is no
ultimate purpose to anything in their life."
"It is the atheists who are offended by my view that there is a God who loves them."
"Judge Roy Moore is protecting the people from those people who don't believe in God."
"I think I'm doing pretty well in politics if the atheists sue me, especially in Jacksonville."
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
I have learned over the years that all evangelical Christians have memorized the same handbook. They all regurgitate the same slogans, e.g., “You hate God,” “Out of context;” parrot the same threat, “You will stand before God on judgment day;“ incessantly quote irrelevant passages from the Bible, e.g., “He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end;” make claims about biblical “science” without ever supporting them, e.g., “Many scientists state that evolution is a flawed theory;” rewrite history, e.g., “America was founded by devout Christians as a Christian nation.”

They unanimously repeat the same story about becoming a believer. They confess that they had once been an evil atheist. Yes, Satan had blinded them from the truth. But in a moment of divine revelation God had opened their hearts and minds to the truth. They had been yanked away from Satan’s clutches and are now saved.

This, of course, is nothing more than one more lie used in an attempt to defend oneself against the forces of reason. It is inconceivable that a person who was knowledgeable enough to reject superstitions and myths earlier in their life could possibly forsake reason in favor of religion at a later period of development. Yes, there are isolated cases where this could happen. A person could have suffered a trauma that caused sever disorientation with associated mental lapses. They chose to rely on a mental crutch. However, as a rule--once a person of reason, always a person of reason.

Fortunately for the fate of humankind, the opposite is occurring. More and more individuals are becoming better educated and less intimidated by supernatural threats. The vocal religious majority is being exposed as unethical hypocrites--resulting in a loss of respect and authority. As individuals begin to question the absurdities that they once were afraid to question, reason comes closer to victory in the war against archaic dogma.

Reason bless America!


David, I'm getting into this string very late and admit that I have not read very many of the responses.

I agree with your accessment of evangelical "christians" as you call them I'll be be a little more direct and say "unsaved christians".

To be true they preach lies you are able to see that, where we will most likely disagree is that I believe that their lies do not make God a liar.

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