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Hi to my Forum Friends, 

In the discussion titled "Atheists Have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?" begun by B50, our atheist Friend, Puppy, asks GB, "Let  me ask you this: Were you taught to believe in God before you discovered those reasons to believe?   Because I think if you were already programmed to believe, then anything after that in support of the belief is just self-justification of that belief." 

Puppy, without realizing it, you have stumbled upon a Biblical truth -- that all people are created with an inherent, inborn desire for God.  Christians will describe this by saying that we are all born with a "hole in our hearts" that only God can fill.   When we were born, we were a clean, pure slate -- nothing written on it; just a pure, innocent young life with inborn desires.  One of those inborn desires is for food, another is for warmth and love, and, yet another is an inborn desire to know God. 

As we grow, our environment, our society, will either nourish these desires -- or weaken and possibly destroy them. 

God's Word tells us, in Romans 2:14-16, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel (the Gospel as taught by Paul in his missionary work, 1 Cor 15:1-8), God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." 

What does this mean?  This is telling us that we are all born with a God-hole in our hearts -- and that Christian believers have allowed God, Jesus Christ, to come in and fill that God-hole.  While the non-believer has covered that God-hole and is doing his best to keep God out.  And, the avowed atheist has poured Satanic supplied cement in that God-hole, i.e., hardened his/her heart just as Pharaoh did in Egypt. 

But, you may ask, what of the natives in the jungle of an isolated island who have never heard of God or Jesus Christ -- are they condemned to eternal hell because they have not heard the Gospel?  No.  They have "the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." 

An example:  The book "Eternity In Their Hearts" written by Don Richardson and published by Regent Books, on page 74, relates the story of the Karen people of of Burma.  In the late 1700s, a British diplomat visited Burma.  When the Karen people from the mountains, who had never seen white men before, met him, they asked if he was the "white brother" who was to bring "the book."   Their tribal stories from many, many generations back told of the "white brother" who would bring "the book" that tells of "Y'wa." 

Where did this tribal belief originate?  Surely not from their ancestors; for their ancestors had never seen white men -- so, how could they prophesy that "white brother" will come from "Y'wa"?  Or, did God instill this in their hearts? 

Let me give you two sources of thought on this subject. 

 

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First, is from the footnotes for this Scripture passage found in my NASB Harper's Study Bible (Zondervan), which reads: 

Romans 2:14-16:  The law of God may be defined as the revealed will of God.  It is found imperfectly in human conscience and perfectly in Scriptures.  The moral law of God is summarized in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-27, Deuteronomy 5:6-21).  The judicial and ceremonial laws of the Old Testament were transitory and adapted to the needs of a particular people for a particular time.  The moral law is of permanent significance for all peoples and has the greatest relevance for Christians as a guide to pleasing their heavenly Father.  Even faith does not revoke this (moral) law. 

Romans 2:15:  Beginning with Adam and Eve, God gave man a conscience.  In the Garden of Eden that conscience was uncorrupted.  Subsequent to the fall, it was corrupted and depraved, but it was not totally erased.  Conscience serves man as a witness to truth (Romans 2:15, Proverbs 20:27), but moral choice determines whether a man will obey what his conscience dictates (Joshua 24:15). 

The conscience accuses men of sin (Genesis 42:21, 2 Samuel 24:10, Matthew 27:3-4), and its indictment will be confirmed in the last judgment when the books are opened.  Every mouth will be stopped, and His judgment will be seen to be according to righteousness (Revelation 20:12-15). 

The spiritual Christian (1 Corinthians 3:1) has a conscience cleansed of guilt by faith in the atoning merits of Jesus Christ; he maintains a clear conscience by a sincere purpose of self-surrender to God (Romans 6:13, 12:1-2) and immediate repentance and confession of any known sin (1 Corinthians 1:31).  In this sense it is possible to have a conscience blameless and void of offense (Acts 24:16, Romans 9:1, 14:22).  But conscience can only be perfected and delivered from its bondage only through a genuine faith and trust in the atoning work of Christ (Hebrews 9:14, 10:2ff). 

Bill Gray note:  For a description of the "spiritual Christian" see my earlier post titled "The Natural Man, The Carnal Man, And The Spiritual Man." 

 

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The second is from the Blue Letter Bible web site.  Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel Bible College, Germany, writes in his Study Guide for Romans 2: http://www.blueletterbible.org...mans&ar=Rom_2_14 

a. Although not having the law, are a law to themselves:  Paul explains why the Gentile can be condemned without the law.  Their conscience (which is the work of the law written in their hearts) is enough to condemn - or, theoretically, enough to justify - them. 

 

i. Written in their hearts:  Many pagan authors of Paul’s day referred to the “unwritten law” within man.  They thought of it as something that points us to the right way.  Though it is not embodied in written laws, it is in many ways more important than written laws. 

ii. A law to themselves does not mean that these “obedient Gentiles” made up their own law (as we use the expression “law unto himself”), but that they were obedient to conscience, the work of the law residing in themselves. 

 

b. Their thoughts accusing or else excusing them:  In theory, a man might be justified (excused) by obeying his conscience.  Unfortunately, every man has violated his conscience (God’s internal revelation to man), just as every man has violated God’s written revelation. 

 

i. While Paul says in Romans 2:14 that a Gentile, may, by nature do the things contained in the law; he is careful to not say that a Gentile could fulfill the requirements of the law by nature

ii. Though God has His work within every man (resulting in conscience), man can corrupt that work, so that conscience varies from person to person, and our consciences can be damaged, and even restored in Christ

 

c. Their conscience also bearing witness:  People who have never heard God’s Word directly still have a moral compass that they are accountable to - the conscience

 

i. “God is describing how He has constituted all men: there is a ‘work’ within them, making them morally conscious.” (Newell) 

ii. “He is not saying that the law is written on their hearts, as people often say, but that the work of the law, what the  law requires of people, is written there.” (Morris) 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So, Puppy, when you ask, "Were you taught (programmed) to believe in God before you discovered those reasons to believe?" --  the answer is NO, we were born with an inborn God-hole -- just the right size and shape for God to come into our hearts and be our personal Lord and Savior. 

Like many of you, I resisted God, often attempting to cover my God-hole with partying, wine, women, and song -- all the delightful, desirable cement provided by a Satan controlled, secular world.  Yes, I was having fun -- or, at least, thought I was having fun.  Actually, I was on a self-destructive slippery slope right into the arms of Satan and an eternity void of the presence of God. 

But, praise God, I met a God-filled man, Pastor Sam Lacanienta, who gently took me by the hand and helped me remove Satan's cement and free my God-hole so that the Holy Spirit could come in and take up residence.   At the age of fifty, I stopped resisting God, opened the door of my heart, and invited Jesus Christ to come in, dine with me, and be my absolute Best Friend (Revelation 3:20). 

 

And, praise God, my life has not been the same since! 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, 

Bill

Original Post

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Bill has stumbled upon a axiom:  Yes, people to have a natural predilection to believe in things that aren't there.  It is a survival trait that has served us well for millions of years.  Our brains are wired to suspect the vague shadow in the grass is actually a lion.  If we act on that shadow by running and are wrong, no harm done.  If we are right - that the shadow is a lion - we live another day.  We naturally apply patterns to random events such as assuming some "force" is controlling the rain.  It is natural from there to assume that this force punishes some people with drought while rewarding others with good rains and crops.  So we attempt to control this randomness by doing a little rain dance.  If we are wrong, no harm done.  If it rains, good for us.

To ancient people, what must they make of a sun that rises and sets in a manner that could only be perfected by the gods?  That mysterious bright light brings warmth, causes the crops to grow and is always there for us. All we have to do is continue to believe the sun will rise and it will.  

The wandering stars (that we now call planets) passing through the pictures drawn in the constellations are very obviously attempts by the gods to communicate with us.  What kind of mind-boggling power could place our planet at the center and relay such signals to us?  

Comets, blood-red moons from a lunar eclipse, solar eclipses, shooting stars all server to send a message to us directly from the heavens.  But only those highly trained in the art of discernment are truly qualified to properly interpret these signs and pass them onto the earthly leaders of the day.  That was how the first preacher was born.

We are not born to be logical reasonable people.  In fact, asking a believer to use logic is akin to letting them drive a forklift in a china shop.  Logic and reason is a skill set that is developed through education.  The wandering stars are not stars but planets.  Our sun doesn't circle the earth.  We are not even anywhere close to the center of the universe because a "center" doesn't really exist.  The pictures painted in the night sky by the constellations  (and the vague lion-shaped shadow in the grass) are examples of a psychological phenomenon called pareidolia.  This kind of knowledge takes effort that not many of us wish to exert.  


It is much, much easier to simply fill that glory hole in your heart with an invisible superbeing that loves and cares for you rather than face the reality that our fate is in the hands of a random, uncaring universe.


 

Heh.

 

 Dangit!  Roland beat me to it.

 

Unob nailed it.

 

I dunno if ya meant to do that, BeeG, but ya just scored some points for the other team.

Whether it's one of your 'biblical truths' or not....You just described exactly how atheists have pretty much the same moral code that christians do.

 

You can be good without god.

 

 

It's human nature. We all strive to reach the same goals in life-pretty much the same way-It's just the religious that hafta get all 'magical mystery tour' about it.

 

 

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

Bill has stumbled upon a axiom:  Yes, people to have a natural predilection to believe in things that aren't there.  It is a survival trait that has served us well for millions of years.  Our brains are wired to suspect the vague shadow in the grass is actually a lion.  If we act on that shadow by running and are wrong, no harm done.  If we are right - that the shadow is a lion - we live another day.  We naturally apply patterns to random events such as assuming some "force" is controlling the rain.  It is natural from there to assume that this force punishes some people with drought while rewarding others with good rains and crops.  So we attempt to control this randomness by doing a little rain dance.  If we are wrong, no harm done.  If it rains, good for us.

To ancient people, what must they make of a sun that rises and sets in a manner that could only be perfected by the gods?  That mysterious bright light brings warmth, causes the crops to grow and is always there for us. All we have to do is continue to believe the sun will rise and it will.  

The wandering stars (that we now call planets) passing through the pictures drawn in the constellations are very obviously attempts by the gods to communicate with us.  What kind of mind-boggling power could place our planet at the center and relay such signals to us?  

Comets, blood-red moons from a lunar eclipse, solar eclipses, shooting stars all server to send a message to us directly from the heavens.  But only those highly trained in the art of discernment are truly qualified to properly interpret these signs and pass them onto the earthly leaders of the day.  That was how the first preacher was born.

We are not born to be logical reasonable people.  In fact, asking a believer to use logic is akin to letting them drive a forklift in a china shop.  Logic and reason is a skill set that is developed through education.  The wandering stars are not stars but planets.  Our sun doesn't circle the earth.  We are not even anywhere close to the center of the universe because a "center" doesn't really exist.  The pictures painted in the night sky by the constellations  (and the vague lion-shaped shadow in the grass) are examples of a psychological phenomenon called pareidolia.  This kind of knowledge takes effort that not many of us wish to exert.  


It is much, much easier to simply fill that glory hole in your heart with an invisible superbeing that loves and cares for you rather than face the reality that our fate is in the hands of a random, uncaring universe.


 


]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

wul unoi, I may faint. While not agreeing with all of what you said, you actually are starting to make sense.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
We have no problem supporting ourselves, thank you, despite the conservative habit of robbing from the poor to give to the rich.


***********************************************************************************************

Robbing from the poor? The "poor" have no money. Who are these poor people that are being robbed?

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer:

I thought they called it a "Glory hole."   Wait, what are we talking about? 


Hi Jennifer,

 

Would you care to tell all of us where you found this phrase -- "Glory Hole"?  

 

Where are you spending your time when not arguing on the Religion Forum?  Inquiring minds truly want to know your answer.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I didn't "find" it bill. I've heard it before. 

 

 

glory hole

 

 a hole in a mineshaft where an orebody is mined upwards until it breaks through the surface into the open air.

 

Nautical . a. the quarters on a ship that are occupied by the stewards or stokers. b. lazaretto ( def. 3 ) . c. any locker or enclosed space for loose gear

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Gee bill, I thought you were all smart and stuff.  Where are YOU spending your time when you're not on the religious forum?  And where did you stumble across the "god hole"?


Hi Jennifer,

 

You are right that the phrase "God Hole" is not in the Bible. However, it is a way that we describe the inner desire that all people have within them to know God.  Many, such as yourself and other atheist/secularists, will fight against that inner desire -- and, very often, are able to cover it or drown it with worldly, secular false teachings.  But, it is there.

 

Basically, it is taken from God's Word which tells us, in Romans 2:14-16, "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel (the Gospel as taught by Paul in his missionary work, 1 Cor 15:1-8), God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

 

That is where I derived the God Hole.  Where did you get the Glory Hole -- and what does it mean?   How are you using it that is relevant to this discussion?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Don't fret, Bill.  We are all adults here, though your kindergarten insults belie that premise.  Why don't you answer Jennifer's question instead? 


Hi Crusty,

 

I have responded to Jennifer's question.  Now, why don't you answer my question.  What do you mean that my mind is in the gutter?  Where I have written anything that is gutter talk?  I believe you WILL find that my posts come from, or are based around, Biblical teaching.  So, what do YOU and Jennifer have in mind?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

You are right that the phrase "God Hole" is not in the Bible. However, it is a way that we describe the inner desire that all people have within them to know God.  Many, such as yourself and other atheist/secularists, will fight against that inner desire -- and, very often, are able to cover it or drown it with worldly, secular false teachings.  But, it is there

 

*************************************************************************************************************

Bill, you are losing it big time. I know of course that the  phrase "god hole" isn't in the bible. It's some silly thing you made up, and apparently you don't have the good sense to know just how silly it is. Since I don't read all your ramblings I had no idea how you had used it until now. There is no inner desire within people to "know god" and I can assure you I'm not fighting off any urges. The day I start to feel that I want to go back to worshipping such a vengeful, murderous, hate filled mythical "being" as your god is the day I will start fighting. You keep on living your bigoted miserable life, keep telling yourself that all that hatred you have for anyone that doesn't believe or believes differently than you is OK. You keep struggling with your thoughts and keep hoping that because you "believe" you get a pass for your evil ways. BTW bill, the bible can even be interpreted to mean that you are living in sin.

Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

Jenn dear, if you don’t believe in the Bible don’t be whoopin’ anyone over the head with it. OK?

I requires that I correct you.


************************************************************************************************************************

And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it? I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing. You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist. Bill says he is a christian but he is constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens. So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it. So if you have one, put your correction up your "god hole"

Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

Jenn dear, if you don’t believe in the Bible don’t be whoopin’ anyone over the head with it. OK?

I requires that I correct you.


************************************************************************************************************************

And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it? I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing. You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist. Bill says he is a christian but he is constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens. So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it. So if you have one, put your correction up your "god hole"

 

 

Good Lordy there aint no reason to call our Lord such awful names lady!

Do you kiss your dear mother with that nasty mouth you have?

Originally Posted by rum_mama:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

Jenn dear, if you don’t believe in the Bible don’t be whoopin’ anyone over the head with it. OK?

I requires that I correct you.


************************************************************************************************************************

And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it? I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing. You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist. Bill says he is a christian but he is constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens. So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it. So if you have one, put your correction up your "god hole"

 

 

Good Lordy there aint no reason to call our Lord such awful names lady!

Do you kiss your dear mother with that nasty mouth you have?


*******************************************************************************************************************

Didn't I just tell you to shove it up your "god hole"?

Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by rum_mama:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

Jenn dear, if you don’t believe in the Bible don’t be whoopin’ anyone over the head with it. OK?

I requires that I correct you.


************************************************************************************************************************

And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it? I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing. You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist. Bill says he is a christian but he is constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens. So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it. So if you have one, put your correction up your "god hole"

 

 

Good Lordy there aint no reason to call our Lord such awful names lady!

Do you kiss your dear mother with that nasty mouth you have?


*******************************************************************************************************************

Didn't I just tell you to shove it up your "god hole"?

 

 

 

HOWD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMBODY SHOVED IT UP YOUR "DOG HOLE" OLD GAL?

Originally Posted by rum_mama:

       

         class="quotedText do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_tr udo_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_bl do_rounded_div_css_ffsafari_br">
       
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by rum_mama:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:
Jenn dear, if you don’t believe in the Bible don’t be whoopin’ anyone over the head with it. OK?
I requires that I correct you.

************************************************************************************************************************
And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it? I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing. You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist. Bill says he is a christian but he is


Why you little p I s s ant.

constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens. So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it. So if you have one, put your correction up your "god hole"


Good Lordy there aint no reason to call our Lord such awful names lady!
Do you kiss your dear mother with that nasty mouth you have?

*******************************************************************************************************************
Didn't I just tell you to shove it up your "god hole"?



HOWD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMBODY SHOVED IT UP YOUR "DOG HOLE" OLD GAL?
Last edited by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat
quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer:
And just who am I "whooping" over the head with it?  I'd say if they don't want whooped over the head they need to stop suggesting I read the thing.  You have a major interest in atheism for someone who isn't an atheist.  Bill says he is a christian but he is constantly mentioning Dawkins and Hitchens.  So I will continue to "whoop" them over the head with it.

Hi Jennifer,

 

Over the years I have dialogued with a number of atheists and secularists.  Yet, virtually all, while not believing in God, do not display such vehement dislike of all things God.  This makes me wonder if someone, very likely a Christian or one who claimed to be a Christian -- has caused you great pain at some point in your life

 

Jennifer, the intensity, the vehemence, of your dislike for anything relating to God, Christianity, the Bible -- is beyond just not believing.  It borders on, or actually is, hatred of all things God.  At least, that is what comes through in your writings. 

 

No one is trying to force God upon you, Jennifer.  Yet, this being the Religion Forum, you should expect to have people here who will share God's Word and the Gospel.  If you do not want to be among people sharing Scripture, why do you come on the Religion Forum.

 

Yes, there are many religions other than Christianity on the Religion Forum.  But, you must expect a lot of Christians to be here.   So, if what we write is so distasteful to you; why do you subject yourself to it?

 

I love football and love attending football games.  I detest hockey -- so, you will NEVER see me at a hockey game.  That is just common sense.  So, Jennifer, if you detest God, Jesus Christ, the Bible, and Christians -- why do you come where we congregate?

 

Jennifer, I would love for us to be Friends.  How can we accomplish that -- without me giving up all my beliefs and my desire to share them -- and without you being forced to believe?  Any ideas?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Over the years I have dialogued with a number of atheists and secularists.  Yet, virtually all, while not believing in God, do not display such vehement dislike of all things God.  This makes me wonder if someone, very likely a Christian or one who claimed to be a Christian -- has caused you great pain at some point in your life

         *********************************************************************************************************

 

No bill, it's just you that brings it out in me AND others. Don't pretend I'm the only one you try to insult that puts it back in your face, and some aren't as nice as me.  (Like your nasty little comment about where I spend my time outside the religion forum). You're the nasty one for insinutating that, AND for knowing about the other meaning of glory hole, which I didn't. And you think I'm supposed to take that from you?  No way pal, and as for rramn and anyone else that thinks I should let you get away with crap-well they know what I think of that.  As for the rest of your sermon, I skipped it.

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