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Bill Gray ask to show in scripture purgatory. 8/20 "Is the Bible Really Inerrant.

Isaiah 35:8-10 A highway will be there called the Holy Way; No one unclean will
pass over it. No lion will be there, nor beast of prey go up to be met on it.
(this is not hell) It is for those with a journey to make,and on it the redeemed
will walk. (on their way to heaven).

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire. (this isn't necessarily talking
about his anger). There is a fire in hell, but there's an infinitely hotter fire
in Heaven;It's God himself. So fire refers to God's infinite love even more than his eternal wrath. The angels closest to God are the Seraphim. Which literally means
"The Burning Ones"

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 The work of each will come to light for the will disclose.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's
work. If the work stands, that someone will receive a wage. But if someones work
is burned up, that one will suffer a lose. the person will be saved, but only
as through fire.
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Matthew's Gospel, Jesus' statement that certain sins "will not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come" (Mt 12:32), at least suggests a purging of the soul after death.
He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (which has to occur before sanctified in Heaven)
Hi Gifted Child,

You tell us, "Bill Gray asked us to show, in Scripture, (the doctrine of) purgatory. 8/20 "Is the Bible Really Inerrant."

And, for proof of purgatory, you give us the following Scripture passages. Let's take a look at each one:

You offer: Isaiah 35:8-10: "A highway will be there called the Holy Way; No one unclean will pass over it. No lion will be there, nor beast of prey go up to be met on it." This is not hell. It is for those with a journey to make, and on it the redeemed will walk -- on their way to heaven.

Isaiah 35 has nothing whatsoever to do with a doctrine of Purgatory. Isaiah, chapters 33, 34, and 35 tell us about God dealing with the enemies of His chosen people, Israel -- destroying their past enemies and His promise to destroy those future enemies of Israel. God intends to save the remnant of His chosen people and this is the purpose of the coming Tribulation -- to remove all their enemies and to cleanse His chosen people, leaving only the faithful remnant.

Isaiah 35:8-10, "A highway will be there, a roadway, And it will be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean will not travel on it, But it will be for him who walks that way, And fools will not wander on it. No lion will be there, Nor will any vicious beast go up on it; These will not be found there. But the redeemed will walk there, And the ransomed of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, With everlasting joy upon their heads. They will find gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away."

During the Tribulation, many will come to faith in their Messiah, Jesus Christ, and will be killed, martyred, for their faith. We read about them in Revelation

Revelation 7:15-17, "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

And, when Jesus Christ returns after the Tribulation to establish His Kingdom on Earth, the Millennial Kingdom, He will rule all of His people from their Zion, the holy city of Jerusalem. All Christian believers, Old Testament, New Testament, Tribulation, and those believers who survive the Tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies -- will live in the perfect theocracy, ruled by Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Next, you offer: Hebrews 12:29: "For our God is a consuming fire." (this isn't necessarily talking about his anger). There is a fire in hell, but there's an infinitely hotter fire in Heaven. It's God himself. So fire refers to God's infinite love even more than his eternal wrath. The angels closest to God are the Seraphim. Which literally means "The Burning Ones"

It is interesting that Pastor Chuck Smith, in his C2000 Series Commentary on Hebrews 12-13, refers us back to Isaiah 33, where God is destroying the enemies of Israel. Yes, His fire did consume Israel's enemies. However, fire has a dual purpose, as we see in this excerpt from Pastor Chuck's commentary:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Commentary of Hebrews 12-13 (C2000 Series):
http://www.blueletterbible.org...Hebrews&ar=Hbr_12_29

Hebrews 12:28-29, "Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire."

Very interesting! We are told in Isaiah that when God destroyed the large Assyrian army that had come against the southern kingdom of Judah, in one night an angel of the Lord went out to the Assyrian army and wiped out 185,000 troops; one night, destroyed the army, one angel. In the morning when the Israelites got up, looked out to see the enemy that had been camped around them, there was nothing but these dead corpses, 185,000. And it said a fear gripped the hearts of the sinners in Zion. Those that were in the city who were sinners, man, they really got scared. They saw what the fire of God could do. They said, "Who among us can dwell in the midst of this devouring fire?" (Isaiah 33:14). They got panicked when they saw what God's fire can do. Our God is a consuming fire.

Well, that all depends. Fire is an interesting phenomena of nature. One thing you can say about fire is that it is everywhere. There is what they call "aeromocasis." Long word, but it means the slow burning fire of nature. Take a piece of metal and lay it outside and in just a short little while, on that bare metal you'll see little bronze specks on it. What are those little brown specks? Oxidation, the slow burning fire of nature, as nature starts to deteriorate that piece of metal, starts to eat it away. Slow burning fire of nature, destroying, eating away.

Fire -- an interesting substance, because it can consume. But fire is also used to transform into permanency. If you put the alloy into the fire and heat it, it becomes steel; hardened and tempered by the fire. So fire is interesting. It can transmit something into permanency while consuming others. It all depends on the material that it is working with.

The sinners in Zion said, "Who can escape the fire of God?" The answer is no one can escape the fire of God. It is everywhere. You can't escape it. The question is, what is it doing to you? And it all depends on what you are. If you are a child of God, the fire of God is transmitting and transforming you into permanency. If you're not, it's a consuming fire that will one day totally consume you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

However, we find nothing in this Scripture passage to support the doctrine of Purgatory.

Then, you offer: 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, "The work of each will come to light for the will disclose. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands, that someone will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer a lose. the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

You have chosen on of my favorite passages in support of "once saved, always saved" -- for here we are assured that, even though the fruit of our salvation, the works motivated by the Holy Spirit when we become Christian believers and are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit -- may be burned up, but, we who are true believers will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

When will our works, the fruit of our salvation, be tested? After the Rapture, we will receive our immortal bodies and will be taken into heaven for a period of seven years, the Tribulation period. In heaven, we Christian believers will stand before our Lord for a judgment of rewards. We call this the Bema Seat Judgment and find it in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Judgment Seat Of Christ
http://www.raptureready.com/ab..._Seat_of_Christ.html

Bema is a Greek term meaning "judgment seat." In the city of Corinth, a stone platform was constructed to support the Bema seat (judgment seat) of the local officials. The seat was used to give out awards to athletes for their competitive performances (usually a crown wreath of leaves), but also to address legal charges brought against individuals. The great Apostle Paul was quite familiar with this seat. This is where he was brought before Gallio, who was the proconsul of Achaia at the Bema seat (Acts 18:12). This seat was also what Paul referred to in 2 Corinthians 5:9-11 as the "judgment seat of Christ." In this context, Paul explains to us that this is where the Christian will receive an evaluation for works done in the body, whether good or bad.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Child, my Friend, I am not telling you that you should not believe in your church's teaching of Purgatory, even though I believe it is not Biblical -- for your salvation is not based upon how you believe on this teaching. We are saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, on issues such as Purgatory we can agree to disagree and yet, not allow this to divide us. I pray this is agreeable to you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The words of Our Lord "You shall not come out from it until you have paid
the last penny." ( Matt.5:25-26. Jesus speaking of sins against the Holy Spirit,
he said that such a sin "will notbe forgiven either in this world or the next.
Implying that there are some sins that can be atoned for in the next world -Matt 12:32
Paul shows his belief in purgatory when he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus.
May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.--2 Tim. 1:18--
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.--Rev 12:27--

I am redeemed, and like the apostle Paul I am working out salvation in fear
and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance, and I do
all this as the church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Gifted Child,

You tell us, "Bill Gray asked us to show, in Scripture, (the doctrine of) purgatory. 8/20 "Is the Bible Really Inerrant."

And, for proof of purgatory, you give us the following Scripture passages. Let's take a look at each one:

You asked for it, you got it, you change it, you spin it, you twist it.

I don't believe you understand the Bible. The Holy Ghost grants the understanding
of the Bible. I know you haven't heard from him in years. Why would he?
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Matthew's Gospel, Jesus' statement that certain sins "will not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come" (Mt 12:32), at least suggests a purging of the soul after death. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (which has to occur before sanctified in Heaven)

Hi VP,

You quote Matthew 12:32 to prove your doctrine of Purgatory -- but, this Scripture passage has nothing to do with the teaching of Purgatory. Let's examine that Scripture passage.

Matthew 12:31-32, "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

What is the sin against the Holy Spirit which cannot be forgiven?

The Study Note in my NASB Study Bible tells us: "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31-32, Luke 12:10). To commit this sin one must consciously, persistently, deliberately, and maliciously reject the testimony of the Spirit to the deity and saving power of the Lord Jesus. Since only the Holy Spirit can convince and convert the unsaved, a continuous and final rejection of His wooing and His witness shuts off the only possible avenue whereby the saving work of Christ is applied to the sinner in his need."

So, what is the unforgivable sin? It is the conscious rejection of Jesus Christ to whom the Holy Spirit is leading us. Why is this sin unforgivable? Because we have this lifetime to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Even with our last breath in this mortal body; we can repent and turn to follow Jesus Christ.

Yet, once we have breathed that last breath in this mortal body -- there is no longer any opportunity to repent and believe. After that last mortal breath -- our eternal destiny is set in concrete.

As this passage in Matthew tells us, "whoever speaks against (rejects) the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

VP, I pray that you see this passage more clearly now.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Gifted Child,

You tell us, "Bill Gray asked us to show, in Scripture, (the doctrine of) purgatory. 8/20 "Is the Bible Really Inerrant."

And, for proof of purgatory, you give us the following Scripture passages. Let's take a look at each one:

You asked for it, you got it, you change it, you spin it, you twist it.

I don't believe you understand the Bible. The Holy Ghost grants the understanding
of the Bible. I know you haven't heard from him in years. Why would he?

Hi Child,

Please show us ONE example where I have misquoted or twisted Scripture. You have made this accusation before -- please give us an example and proof that I have done this.

And, please, let's stick to Scripture -- and not Tradition or Catechism.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
I am redeemed, and like the apostle Paul I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance, and I do all this as the church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

Hi Child,

You rely upon the Roman Catholic church for salvation. I rely upon the Word of God for salvation.

You rely upon the teachings of the Roman Catholic church for salvation.

I rely upon the teaching of the Written Word of God, the Bible.

One of us is standing on sand -- and, as I look, I see Solid Rock underneath me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
I am redeemed, and like the apostle Paul I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance, and I do all this as the church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

Which church? Your church?

GC, you've nothing to worry about. Live a good life.

HEY FOLKS, I SEE A "SLIPPERY SLOPE" HERE AND IT IS TILTED DOWNWARD! - THE BOTTOM IS SCORCHED!

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Gifted Child,

You tell us, "Bill Gray asked us to show, in Scripture, (the doctrine of) purgatory. 8/20 "Is the Bible Really Inerrant."

And, for proof of purgatory, you give us the following Scripture passages. Let's take a look at each one:


BG---- You can't say anything you want and expect me to accept it when it dosen't
prove anything. One more time, spin it some more. When I'm talking apples,
you want to talk about a Buick. Everything I said is from the Bible.
I can't believe your so stupid as to say,- "and not Tradition or Catechism"
You've got a very deep problem, and the first you will do is deny it. Fine

You asked for it, you got it, you change it, you spin it, you twist it.

I don't believe you understand the Bible. The Holy Ghost grants the understanding
of the Bible. I know you haven't heard from him in years. Why would he?

Hi Child,

Please show us ONE example where I have misquoted or twisted Scripture. You have made this accusation before -- please give us an example and proof that I have done this.

And, please, let's stick to Scripture -- and not Tradition or Catechism.
Hi Child,

You obviously have a problem posting messages since you have posted my comments as yours.

So, let's start fresh. You quoted several Scripture passages and told us what you believe they mean.

I then took those same Scripture references and showed you from the Bible and from the teachings of Bible scholars -- what I believe they teach.

All you can say in response is, "I don't believe you and you twist Scripture."

Once again, I ask you to show me, with Biblical proof, where I have misquoted or twisted Scripture.

If you cannot, we can just move on to more productive discussions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gifted Child:
I am redeemed, and like the apostle Paul I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance, and I do all this as the church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

Hi Child,

You rely upon the Roman Catholic church for salvation. I rely upon the Word of God for salvation.

You rely upon the teachings of the Roman Catholic church for salvation.

I rely upon the teaching of the Written Word of God, the Bible.

BG.

You can't be more wrong. I rely on the word of God alone. thats Catholic.
You rely on the Bible alone, and you don't even understand what it's saying.
The word of God alone. Jesus created the Universal church when on earth.
He gave the keys to Peter. Thats the only reason I'm Catholic. I could
say you rely on your COC for your salvation plus your 399 years of getting
it wrong, but how does that sound? Like the big baby you are?
quote:
You can't be more wrong. I rely on the word of God alone. thats Catholic.
You rely on the Bible alone, and you don't even understand what it's saying.
The word of God alone. Jesus created the Universal church when on earth.
He gave the keys to Peter. Thats the only reason I'm Catholic. I could
say you rely on your COC for your salvation plus your 399 years of getting
it wrong, but how does that sound? Like the big baby you are?


Gifted- I think he is "baptist", but other than that,,,,,,AMEN! Unfortunately he will never understand. All we can do is provide the TRUTH when he misrepresents the Church, and lies and twists...
We can do it...
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Gifted- I think he is "baptist", but other than that,,,,,,AMEN! Unfortunately he will never understand. All we can do is provide the TRUTH when he misrepresents the Church, and lies and twists... We can do it...

Hi VP,

You cannot show ONE single incident where I have misrepresented the Roman Catholic church. I have shown you what it teaches -- and, I have shown you where those teachings are not Biblical.

And, as for Child, she keeps ranting that I have misquoted or twisted Scripture -- but, when asked, she cannot produce even ONE single proof of that false accusation.

So, yes, I will stay with my Day of Pentecost Christian beliefs -- which, by the way, match the Baptist beliefs -- and I will stay with what the Bible teaches.

And, you and Child can happily comfort one another with your Traditions, Catechisms, and Hail Marys.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
You cannot show ONE single incident where I have misrepresented the Roman Catholic church


That's right! I cannot show ONE, I can show MANY MANY MANY. And I have.
So, you go and keep showing your disdain for the Catholics, believe your sins are invisible to God, and that your glory train cannot be derailed.
I will continue to rely on God's mercy, and stick with the Holy and Apostolic Church- as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.
Good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance,


Correct me if I'm wrong in the way I'm seeing & understanding this.

I'm supposed to follow & obey God/Jesus teachings that come from a book different men wrote their opinions of. All the while I'm trying to do this I'm supposed to be fearful & trembling.....BUT hopeful that He doesn't send me to hell.

That's it in a nutshell, right? Confused
Bill, I am not going to recap our arguements over the last few months.
Your misrepresentations of the Catholic church have all been called out.
I do not have the time nor energy to re-write what I have already done. You know it, I know it, and anyone who has been following our conversations know it.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Bill, I am not going to recap our arguements over the last few months. Your misrepresentations of the Catholic church have all been called out. I do not have the time nor energy to re-write what I have already done. You know it, I know it, and anyone who has been following our conversations know it.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAVE MADE AN ACCUSATION YOU CANNOT SUPPORT - SO YOU WALK AWAY. NOT A PROBLEM!

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quote:
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAVE MADE AN ACCUSATION YOU CANNOT SUPPORT - SO YOU WALK AWAY. NOT A PROBLEM!


No.
I have supported and defended all of your outlandish claims numerous times, on multiple threads.
You are a game-player. I'm not interested in your childish rhetoric and your manipulative lies.
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance,


Correct me if I'm wrong in the way I'm seeing & understanding this.

I'm supposed to follow & obey God/Jesus teachings that come from a book different men wrote their opinions of. All the while I'm trying to do this I'm supposed to be fearful & trembling.....BUT hopeful that He doesn't send me to hell.

That's it in a nutshell, right? Confused


No Simi, Your not suppose to do that when it goes against your thinking.
All people do different think's for other reasons. there are no nutshells.
Semi, I don't know if this will help, but the way I think of it is this:
I was afraid of my Dad when I was a kid- and he was (and is) a great and loving Dad.
But, still, I was afraid of crossing or disobeying him. I love him dearly.
Now, think of God the Father the same way- we are fearful that we may disappoint Him (sin) or fail to live His Commandments. (we do it all the time, and we always ask forgiveness- His mercy, like any Father, endures forever.
So, if your dilemma is in loving someone and fearing them at the same time, it may help to think of just a "healthy" dose of fear of a parent.
Now the hell part-I believe hell will be simply the absence of God. If you reject God, there will be no place for you in His Kingdom.
So, yes- we fearfully love and worship God the Father, and pray that we may live to be a good and faithful servant.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
I am redeemed, and like the apostle Paul I am working out salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence, but not with false assurance, and I do all this as the church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.

Which church? Your church?

GC, you've nothing to worry about. Live a good life.

HEY FOLKS, I SEE A "SLIPPERY SLOPE" HERE AND IT IS TILTED DOWNWARD! - THE BOTTOM IS SCORCHED!


indeed it is bill...

perhaps you should change your path before it's too late?
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Semi,
I was afraid of my Dad when I was a kid- and he was (and is) a great and loving Dad.
But, still, I was afraid of crossing or disobeying him.
Now the hell part-I believe hell will be simply the absence of God.


I understand what you're saying about a parent, & I agree...to an extent. But my dad never tortured me. Wink

If you believe hell is simply the absence of God, please explain these scriptures to me. Smiler

Revelation 20:10 speaks of the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 says Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.

Revelation 20:10 speaks of being tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Also in Revelation 20 it says that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Is it an actual place? Where there is literally fire and torment? I don't know. Nobody does. There have been many different schools of thought as to whether there is actual physical torment, or if it is just "mental and spiritual" anguish from being separated from God for all eternity. Maybe it just means we will remain dead, and not rise to new Life.
Hell is where we will know that God exists, but we will suffer the consequences of being separated from Him. I believe we will have a chance to "see" before we reject Him, and those who still reject Him will be cast out.
My personal feeling, is that it is not going to be a physical "place" where there is fire and physical pain- but a place of spiritual "deadness".

Here is the Catholic "official teaching" on Hell:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618


Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621
veep,

With all respect and affection, you ducked semi's questions.

Hell is described an a place of eternal torture. Endless pain and fire.

Can you imagine anything a mortal, imperfect, visitor to life could possibly do to deserve such a fate? Anything?

So why would anyone make up such a hideous place? Worse yet, who could scare children with this prospect?

They can threaten me with hell all they want, I'm always ready for a good laugh, but an impressionable child who thinks that Uncle Tanoush or Spot the dog or himself might end up there can be permanently warped.

Is that the point? Obedience through fear? Doesn't that speak to the weakness of the positive religious argument? Is "an offer he can't refuse" necessary for the perpetuation of religion?

Forgive me, but the horrible fiction of Hell is one of the most disgusting things about religion. Especially where children are concerned.
I think most people rely on Dante's Inferno for the vision of hell. It was just a poem.

Inferno (Dante)
Dante's Divine Comedy
Inferno · Purgatorio · Paradiso


Inferno (Italian for "Hell") is the first part of Dante Alighieri's fourteenth-century epic poem Divine Comedy. It is followed by Purgatorio and Paradiso. It is an allegory telling of the journey of Dante through what is largely the medieval concept of Hell, guided by the Roman poet Virgil. In the poem, Hell is depicted as nine circles of suffering located within the Earth. Allegorically, the Divine Comedy represents the journey of the soul towards God, with the Inferno describing the recognition and rejection of sin
quote:
With all respect and affection, you ducked semi's questions


Sorry, I'm not intentionally "ducking"...but I can't answer what I don't know.
I can give my opinion, the Church's teaching, but at the end of the day? I just don't know if that Scripture is to be taken literally as a place. And, I guess I won't know in this lifetime...and hope I never do, really.
What I *DO* know, is that there will be no sin in Heaven, and that there is no place in Heaven for those who deny God until (and after) the bitter end.
It's not puppies, flowers and cookies, that's for sure. That's why I strive to stay in God's good graces. And plead for mercy when I don't. (which is pretty much every day) Wink

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