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Hi to my Forum Friends,

Since our non-believing Friend, Contendah, has offered his thrashing of Christians and Biblical Eschatology in his post titled "End Times Nuttiness Down Through The Ages" -- I will offer a viewpoint which I believe to be a wee bit more honest and truthful.

Contendah, you post the writings of a columnist on Time Magazine's web page, a woman who apparently stands way over on the Far Left and who loves to sling mud at Christians and Christianity -- and, then you add your very insightful atheist viewpoint with, "Yup,  sho' 'nuff, the end of the world is comin' soon!  So they have been saying for centuries, as exemplified by the nutjobs described in this link."

And, you quote from that Far Left woman's article about Hal Lindsey and his book "The Late, Great Planet Earth" :


Among them is the ever-smug Hal Lindsey, who has missed the mark several times, but who still appears on TV,  boldly and dogmatically "interpreting" today's events in light of Biblical prophecy.  I recently heard one of the hucksters on American Family Radio praising Lindsey's gift for understanding prophecy.  Truly, there are those who can fool some of the people all of the time!


This has been a favorite "stone to throw" at all Conservative Christians since the recent wacked out rantings of Harold Camping --  and as far back as William Miller, whose teachings led to the beginning of the Seventh Day Adventist church, when he declared that Jesus Christ would return in 1843/1844.  This type of attack against Christianity is typical of the unbelievers of the world.   

Give the non-believer a spoonful of water -- and they will make a bathtub full of mud from it.

First, let me say that I have read several of Hal Lindsey's books.   I have watched him on television and listened to him on the radio.  And, I do not recall him EVER predicting the time of the Rapture.  All Christians know that the Rapture is imminent and that no one, except God, can know the time.

Contendah, since it would appear that the extent of your reading on this subject seems to be limited to very biased articles such as the one you quoted; I will give you a wee bit of insight from the actual book, The Late, Great Planet Earth.

In the final chapter of the book published in 1970, "Polishing The Crystal Ball" -- Lindsey writes:


No other prophet has ever had more numerous, far-reaching prophecies revealed to him than Daniel; and yet a great deal of what he received in God-given visions and revelations He didn't understand. . . I believe that God today gives us illumination to what has been written, but that He doesn't give us infallible revelation as He gave the writers of the Bible.  Here, then, are the things that I believe will happen and develop in the near future.

The Religious Scene:  In the institutional church, composed of professing Christians who are, in many cases, not  Christian, look for many things to happen:


With increasing frequency the leadership of the denominations will be captured by those who completely reject the historic truths of the Bible and deny doctrines which, according to Christ Himself, are crucial to believe in order to be a Christian. . . as ministers depart from the truths of the Bible, they lose the authority and power that it (the church) has to meet real human needs. . . So they (the churches) resort  to "social action gimmicks" -- super organizations -- and elaborate programs as a substitute.


The Political Scene:  Keep you eyes on the Middle East.  If this is the time we believe it is, this area will become a  constant source of tension for all the world.

On The Sociological Scene:  Look for the present sociological problems such as crime, riots, lack of employment, poverty, illiteracy, mental illness, illegitimacy, etc. . . . Look for the beginning of the widest spread of famines in the history of the world. . .  Look for drug addiction to further permeate the U.S. and other free-world countries.  Drug addicts will run for high political offices and win through support of the young adults. . .  Look for drugs and forms of religion to be merged together. . . which will not be related to God, but to Satan. . . Astrology, witchcraft, and Oriental  religions will become predominant in the western world.

Where Do We Go From Here?:   We believe that, in spite of all these things (written about in The Late, Great Planet  Earth) God is going to raise up a believing remnant of true Christians. . .


And, the book ends with this:


So let us seek to reach our family, our friends, and our acquaintances with the Gospel -- with all the strength that He  gives us.  The time is short.

In the early centuries, the Christians had a word for greeting and departing; it was the word, "Maranatha," which means "the Lord is coming soon."   We can think of no better way with which to say goodbye -- MARANATHA!

 

Note:  Bold, underline, and italic emphasis in the book excerpts above are mine.

 

First, let me add this qualification:  I will be the first to say that we should always take what we read on Wikipedia with a grain of salt; for anyone can write on Wikipedia, and anyone can edit those articles.  With that qualification, I will submit this article I did find on Wikipedia -- for I agree with what the writer tells us about Hal Lindsey and his book The Late, Great Planet Earth.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Late, Great Planet Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...,_Great_Planet_Earth

 

The Late, Great Planet Earth is the title of a best-selling 1970 book co-aut****d by Hal Lindsey and Carole C. Carlson, and first  published by Zondervan.  The book was adapted in 1979 into a movie narrated by Orson Welles and released by Pacific International  Enterprises.  It was originally ghost-written by Carlson, whom later printings credited as co-author.  Lindsey and Carlson went on to write several sequels, including Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth and The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon.

The Late, Great Planet Earth is a treatment of literalist, premillennial, dispensational eschatology.  As such, it compared end-time prophecies in the Bible with then-current events in an attempt to broadly predict future scenarios leading to the rapture of believers before the tribulation and Second Coming of Christ to establish his thousand-year (i.e. millennial) Kingdom on Earth.  Focusing on key passages in the books of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, Lindsey originally suggested the possibility that these climactic events might play out in the 1980s, which he interpreted as one generation from the foundation of modern Israel in 1948, a pivotal event in most evangelical (especially conservative evangelical) schools of eschatological thought.

Cover art on the Bantam edition boldly suggested that the 1970s were the "era of the Antichrist as foretold by Moses and Jesus,"  and called the book "a penetrating look at incredible ancient prophecies involving this generation."  Descriptions of alleged "fulfilled"  prophecy were offered as proof of the infallibility of God's Word, and evidence that "unfulfilled" prophecies would soon find their denouement in God's plan for the planet.

He cited an increase in the frequency of famines, wars and earthquakes, as key events leading up to the end of the world.  He also foretold a Russian invasion of Israel.  Like many previous books, The Late, Great Planet Earth postulated an Antichrist ruling over a ten-member or ten-nation European confederacy.  Lindsey believed that what was then the six-member European Economic Community (later the 27-member European Union) could be a forerunner of this confederacy, which he considered to be a revival of the Roman Empire.  He found little in the Bible that could represent the United States of America, but he suggested that Ezekiel 13:13 could be speaking of the United States in part.

Although Lindsey did not claim to know the dates of future events with any certainty, he suggested that Matthew 24:32-34 indicated that Jesus' return might be within "one generation" of the rebirth of the state of Israel, and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple, and Lindsey asserted that "in the Bible" one generation is forty years.  Some readers took this as an indication that the Tribulation or  the Rapture would occur no later than 1988.

In his 1980 work The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon, Lindsey predicted that "the decade of the 1980s could very well be the last decade of history as we know it."

 

Note:  Bold, underline, and italic emphasis in the article excerpt above are mine.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Twenty years ago, in 1991, during the Gulf War, our Bible study leader, Tom Fletcher, inspired by the black smoke filling the skies from the oil field fires the Iraqi armies had set in Kuwait -- began to talk about the Rapture, the Tribulation, and other eschatological issues which were totally beyond me as a relatively new Christian.

During the Bible study that evening, I was not about to admit that I did not know what Tom was talking about -- but, this sparked my interest in eschatology, the End Times prophecies.  And, the first book I found to read was -- you guessed it -- The Late, Great Planet Earth.

Since then, I have read all of the Left Behind series as well as many books by other solid Bible scholars, theologians, and teachers of eschatology.  More than two shelves of my personal library are books on eschatology -- some very good, others not so good.   But, this has given me the opportunity to look at opposing viewpoints and, in my own mind, determine which view I feel best aligns with Biblical teachings.

Yet, I have found, and still find, Hal Lindsey's book, The Late, Great Planet Earth, a great place to start if one is looking for a jumping off point in your End Times studies journey.

So, for my non-believing Religion Forum Friends, I might suggest you put your "stones" back into your pocket -- for in this attack against Biblical Prophecy -- your stones have become marshmallows.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

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quote:  Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Bill, I think Jesus told you that no one, except the Father, knows the day and hour.   People have been predicting the end of the world since it began.   Why are you fretting about it if you are saved?


Hi Winston,

 

Not fretting about it -- only setting the record straight.  The lady Times writer made a false statement about this book and its writer -- and Condendah propagated this false claim by posting it as though it is true.   So, I wrote this to let the truth be known. 

 

While Hal Lindsey is not my favorite eschatology writer today (I have moved on to deeper studies); he is a serious Christian who is sharing his views of the End Times.  I did not want this untruth about his writings to go unchallenged. 

 

And, that, my Friend, is the reason for my post.  Also, it would be nice if this encourages others to begin a study of eschatology -- meaning deeper study of God's Word -- which can only be good.

 

On the other hand, why are you fretting about me posting this information?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Bill, I think Jesus told you that no one, except the Father, knows the day and hour.   People have been predicting the end of the world since it began.   Why are you fretting about it if you are saved?


Hi Winston,

 

Not fretting about it -- only setting the record straight.  The lady Times writer made a false statement about this book and its writer -- and Condendah propagated this false claim by posting it as though it is true.   So, I wrote this to let the truth be known. 

 

While Hal Lindsey is not my favorite eschatology writer today (I have moved on to deeper studies); he is a serious Christian who is sharing his views of the End Times.  I did not want this untruth about his writings to go unchallenged. 

 

And, that, my Friend, is the reason for my post.  Also, it would be nice if this encourages others to begin a study of eschatology -- meaning deeper study of God's Word -- which can only be good.

 

On the other hand, why are you fretting about me posting this information?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, quit writing me these nice little epistles.

 

I am not your friend, and I do not believe in this pre-tribulation rapture nonsence.

 

If you are saved, move on, tell others, and quit this self-righteous pontification. 

Hi Winston,

You tell me, "Bill, quit writing me these nice little epistles."

Well, my Friend, if you do not want folks to respond to your posts -- then, you should not be writing on a Religion Forum.

You tell me, "I am not your friend, . . ."

You may not consider me a Friend -- but, if you are a Christian -- then, we are Christian brothers.  Since we are Christian brothers; I would presume we are Friends.   The two sort of go together -- like ham and eggs.  Are you my Christian brother -- or not?

If you say you are a Christian believer, but, you are not my Friend -- well, I will leave that up to you and God.  But, for me, I will continue to call you my Friend, for all Christian believers are my Friends -- at least, in my heart.

Next, you declare, ". . . and I do not believe in this pre-tribulation rapture nonsense."

Not a problem.  Your Christian salvation is not based upon your eschatological beliefs -- only, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ  -- plus NOTHING else.   So, you just go on believing in whatever you believe -- and I will continue to believe what the Bible teaches me, a PreTribulation Rapture of the church, and a PreMillennial Second Coming of Christ.

And, on the way up -- we can compare notes.

Finally, you tell me, "If you are saved, move on, tell others, and quit this self-righteous pontification."

Yes, I am saved and KNOW that I have eternal life in Christ and will spend eternity in the presence of my God.  But, your next statement has me a wee bit confused.  First, you tell me to "move on, tell others" and, then you tell me to "quit this self-righteous pontification."

So, which is it?  Am I to "move on and tell others" about Jesus Christ and His "paid in full" free gift of eternal life?  Or, am I to quit what you call "self-righteous pontification" -- by which I presume you mean that I should stop sharing the Gospel?

First, you tell me to move on and share the Gospel.  Then, you tell me to stop sharing the Gospel.  Please, make up your mind.

But, I think I will go with what my Leader, Jesus Christ, tells me in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the  nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded  you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

And, in Acts 1:8, ". . . you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

And, in Mark 16:15, ". . . Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation."

Winston, my Friend, as long as you and I are on the Religion Forum -- you will see my posts.  If you prefer to ignore them, not a  problem.  But, God willing, I will be here for a very long time.  So, since we will be here together -- don't you think it would be more pleasant if we are Friends AND Christian brothers?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill--

 

Kindly take note that I am not among those in the  the non-believing sector. I am no atheist, nor am I even a "liberal" in religious matters, as Unobtanium suggests.  It is entirely possible to be a conservative Christian without holding to current, regrettably  popular themes of theocratic nationalism and premillennialist mythology that clutter this web site.

 

As to "thrashing of Christians and Biblical eschatology, well, Bill, it is easy to lash out with that kind of assertion, but what you are actually saying comes down to this--that disagreement with the premillennialist views held by you and, regrettably, many others reflects my hostility to Christianity in general.  Get this, Bill--there are millions--at least tens of millions if not hundreds of millions--in Christendom who do NOT buy into the raveled eschatological fabric chaotically woven by  Darbyite/Scofieldian triburapturists like yourself and there are millions of Christians who correctly regard the end times prattle of the "Left Behind" series as not only vapid, puerile literature but as hermeneutic nonsense.  Does your indictment of me extend also to them? 

 

Perhaps, Bill, you have not dug sufficiently deeply into your vast library of of premillennialist end times mythology.  If you had, you just might have encountered these gems from Hal Lindsey:

 

"The Bible fortells [sic] the signs that precede Armageddon"

 

"We are the generation that will see the end times ... and the return of Jesus" ).

 

"I believe this man [the Antichrist] is alive today -- alive and waiting to come forth.” ...

 

“Thus we have all five pieces of the prophets' scenario for the latter days. All the powers --Israel, the Arabs,Russia,China and the revived Roman Empire-- are fixed in place." 

 

That "revived Roman Empire," by the way, was prophesied by Lindsey to become a "United States of Europe" with 10 members, to be ruled by the Antichrist.  Lindsey can't count very well; the current membership of the European Union is 27.

 

Perhaps Hal should limit his counting to numbers accessible by the fingers of only one hand. He could at least accurately enumerate the  wives he has worked his way through, having divorced three of them.  He is now on his fourth.

 .

Last edited by Contendah

Hi Bill. I won't get into the SUBJECT of this thread because you already know where I stand. And although I don't agree with you, I would never say that because we disagree, we are not brother and sister in Christ.

 

Just as you wrote to Winston, that we can disagree but still be friends because of the tie through Christ that binds us, you and Contendah ARE brothers in Christ. I know that he is a true Christian, just as I know you are, and just as I know I am.

 

Sometimes the WAY we say things gets in the way of productive conversation. But we can overcome that if we remember that we each have our part to play.  I believe your part is different from mine, which is different from Contendah's. But the important thing is that we each are doing OUR PART for GOD.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

"Since our non-believing Friend, Contendah, has offered his thrashing of Christians and Biblical Eschatology "

 

Contendah has stated his beliefs many times. He is a Christian. What you would call a liberal Christian.  He disagrees with fundamentalists nutcases such as you as do the vast majority of Americans.  You are simply a mother F$%er, Bill.  An evil, spiteful mother f#$%#^$r wearing a Jesus robe.  You were disgusting enough but this is a new low even for you.

 

I wouldn't call Contendah liberal, but one who knows the Bible and practices all things in moderation. Uno, in this case, you said the rest very well, my friend. I'm surprised at Bill for stating such rubbish.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:

"Since our non-believing Friend, Contendah, has offered his thrashing of Christians and Biblical Eschatology "

 

Contendah has stated his beliefs many times. He is a Christian. What you would call a liberal Christian.  He disagrees with fundamentalists nutcases such as you as do the vast majority of Americans.  You are simply a mother F$%er, Bill.  An evil, spiteful mother f#$%#^$r wearing a Jesus robe.  You were disgusting enough but this is a new low even for you.

------------------------------

OK,,,,,,,,,OK

 

.

Hi all,

 

If Contendah is a Christian believer -- then, praise the Lord!  I was only basing my thoughts on the fact that he has disagreed with every Christian or Biblical thing I have written -- even more than our normal atheist Friends (we will overlook the few extreme radical atheists).  So, I drew the conclusion that he/she is a non-believer.  I am happy to find that I was wrong in this assumption.

 

But, I would like to ask Contendah what he/she DOES believe.   Are you in the Conservative Theology Christian camp (your post would seem to argue against that), the Liberal Theology camp, a Legalistic Theology camp -- or are you in a church which practices some other form of theology.   I am asking only because I would like us to have a level playing field from which to continue having dialogues.

 

I did not mean to insult you when I said you were not a Christian.  So, please accept my apology. 

 

But, please do help me to understand where you are coming from theologically.  It is one thing to tell another he/she is wrong -- then, offer Biblical proof of that error.   It is a horse of another color to just tell me I am wrong -- and drop it there.  Without Biblical justification -- it is only your opinion and my opinion.  We must base every opinion, every position on the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:  Originally Posted by b50m:

Bill,  It might help if you knew that Contendah=Upsidedown=Beternu.   I lost track on the last one.


Hi B,

 

Thank you.  That does explain a lot.   I was not aware of that full name chain.  I wonder why he needs so many pseudonyms to get his message across.   For better or for worse, I have stuck with my real name and never saw any reason to change it or to have other names. 

 

Although, Vic, in trying to be cute, has stumbled upon one truth about my name.  I was birthed by a midwife who could not read or write.  On my birth certificate, in the space for the Physician's Name -- there is an "X" and someone else wrote in "for Ms. Suzie McDaniel -- her mark." 

 

In the early 1990s, when I worked for the English company, Ferranti, and had to get a passport -- I sent to Montgomery for my birth certificate -- and was thrilled when I saw it.  Not many people have a birth certificate signed with an "X" for the physician.

 

And, when whoever creates birth certificates wrote my name in -- they wrote Billie instead of Billy.   All my life, I have signed Bill or Billy -- but, that is not what it says on my birth certificate.   So, old Vic, in his foolishness --  for once is right.

 

One year, in grade school (4th or 5th grade) -- the teacher wrote William on my report card.  I told her, "Ma'am, my name is not William.  It is Billy."  She told me, "No, your name is Willlam!" -- and wrote it that way all year.  So, for one year of my life, regardless of what is on my birth certificate -- in school I was a William.   Oh, well, as we used to say in the Air Force, "Call me anything.  But, don't call me late for dinner!" 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

If Contendah is a Christian believer -- then, praise the Lord!  I was only basing my thoughts on the fact that he has disagreed with every Christian or Biblical thing I have written -- even more than our normal atheist Friends (we will overlook the few extreme radical atheists).  So, I drew the conclusion that he/she is a non-believer.  I am happy to find that I was wrong in this assumption.

 

But, I would like to ask Contendah what he/she DOES believe.   Are you in the Conservative Theology Christian camp (your post would seem to argue against that), the Liberal Theology camp, a Legalistic Theology camp -- or are you in a church which practices some other form of theology.   I am asking only because I would like us to have a level playing field from which to continue having dialogues.

 

I did not mean to insult you when I said you were not a Christian.  So, please accept my apology. 

 

But, please do help me to understand where you are coming from theologically.  It is one thing to tell another he/she is wrong -- then, offer Biblical proof of that error.   It is a horse of another color to just tell me I am wrong -- and drop it there.  Without Biblical justification -- it is only your opinion and my opinion.  We must base every opinion, every position on the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

****

 

Bill, I have explained in detail and with precision my beliefs on many, many issues discussed on this forum.  In doing so, I have cited many scriptural sources and have explained my beliefs in terms of those sources.  If you are unable to approach any of the issues I have discussed without further information concerning what "camp" I am in, then that is your problem.  But I will say this--In describing religious matters, I prefer not to rely on labels like "conservative" and "liberal."  I prefer "Biblical" and "scriptural," since I rely upon on these qualifiers to build my case when I discuss spiritual matters.

 

Seems to me you have avoided responding to my last remarks on Hal Lindsey.  How about it?

Last edited by Contendah

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