quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.
Here's an interesting side to this. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the television show "Supernanny" with Jo Frost.

I've watched plenty of episodes and have seen the most out of control children - of all ages - you could possibly imagine. It's always the same: the parents' form of discipline is spanking and yelling, and it never works; hence, the call to the Supernanny.

Jo Frost has been a nanny for over 20 years and has come across every conceivable behavioral situation. AND NEVER, NOT ONCE, HAS SHE ENCOURAGED A PARENT TO SPANK as discipline.

Here's a great related article:

http://www.associatedcontent.c...spanking.html?cat=25
Here is an ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC article from Parenting Magazine - a Q&A with Dr. William Sears.

Dr. Sears' background:

Author of over 30 books on childcare. Dr. Sears is an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine. Dr. Sears received his pediatric training at Harvard Medical School's Children's Hospital in Boston and The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto -- the largest children’s hospital in the world, where he served as associate ward chief of the newborn nursery and associate professor of pediatrics. Dr. Sears is a fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and a fellow of the Royal College of Pediatricians (RCP). Dr. Sears is also a medical and parenting consultant for BabyTalk and Parenting magazines and the pediatrician on the website.

The article:

quote:

Q. My husband believes in spanking, but I don't. How can we come to an agreement on how best to discipline our kids?


A. I've practiced pediatrics for 35 years and raised eight children with my wife. Over the years, I've seen lots of children grow up, and I've become more and more convinced that spanking is not the best solution when it comes to child discipline. In my opinion, "sparing the rod" results in emotionally healthier and better disciplined children. In fact, based on increasing scientific evidence against spanking and anti-spanking opinions among child development researchers, most European and Scandinavian countries have enacted laws against spanking. In addition, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child declared spanking a form of violence and supports the creation of laws against physical punishment. Besides those facts, here is some other information you can share with your husband that might encourage him to rethink his position on spanking:

Spanking doesn't work. In my practice, I have had parents who spank and those who don't. With the ones who do, I've seen that it just doesn't work. Many times the parent will say, "The more we spank, the worse he behaves!" Spanking creates a distance between parent and child. It doesn't promote good behavior, and if it seems to discourage bad behavior, it does so more by force than desire.

As parents of a large family, my wife and I have had to run a well-disciplined household, so I believe in discipline that works. Since my wife and I are aware of the research against spanking and have rarely seen it work, we adapted a "no spanking" attitude in disciplining our children. Having decided that we would not spank our children -- but we would discipline them -- forced us to learn better discipline techniques. If you program yourself with "I will not hit my child," it forces you to stop and take the time to think, "Is there a better way I can handle this situation?"

Spanking models violence. When a big person hits a little person, especially out of anger, it can tell the child that it's okay to hit people. The mom of one of my patients once told me that she thought she had to spank her child to be a good disciplinarian -- until one day she observed her 3-year-old daughter hitting her younger brother. When the mom intervened, the daughter said, "I'm just playing mommy." Obviously, there was no more spanking in that house!

In a child's mind, if Mom or Dad does something, it's okay. If you vent your anger by hitting your child, then it's harder to rationalize to your child why he shouldn't hit someone when he's angry. Empathy -- the ability to think before you act and imagine how your actions will affect the other person -- is one of the main qualities that we want to instill in our children. Spanking sabotages empathy. A child is likely to haul off and hit another child without considering whether his actions are going to hurt the other person.

Research supports not spanking. Long-term studies have shown that children who were spanked tend to be more physically violent as teenagers and adults, are more likely to be bullies at school, and are generally more antisocial. In addition, children who were spanked excessively had a four times greater incidence of becoming spouse-abusers as adults. Spanking families plant the seed of violence in the next generation.

So how should you discipline your child? Getting behind the eyes of your child can do wonders for prompting you to click into a much more sensitive mode of disciplining than spanking. When he misbehaves, stop and think: "If I were my child, how would I want my parent to handle this?" Spanking is simply a force that gets a kid to stop the misbehavior at that particular time. Remember, discipline means teaching. You want your child to obey because he has learned to make his own choices of what is right or wrong, not out of fear of getting spanked.

If your husband wants to learn discipline techniques other than spanking, have him read our book, The Discipline Book, for many sensitive strategies that can replace spanking in your home.



Oh, I know, he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:


What I described works, thenagel, without the threat of spanking.

I did enjoy your story, though. Big Grin[/QUOTE]

what i described works as well, generally faster and with less reapeted offense. i wonder how many times the kid got bit before your no no no took effect.

skip that... that was snotty....

lets do this... add a qualifer, and i'll agree with you Smiler

what you described CAN work.
if it worked in every case every time then my kids would have never been spanked. i suspect that spanking as a whole would have died out decades ago if a child did what they were told to every time and never disobeyed.

if spanking NEVER worked, why would anyone do it?
if spanking was ALWAYS required, hospitals would hand our Baby's First Paddle along with those overpriced crib photos.

spanking can work well, but should be used sparringly and only if required.
non spanking can work well, but i have met kids who would end up ruling the house if not physical consequinces.

what bothers me about this whole deal, is that you seem to be under the misconception that all children will respond positivly to words and little insignificant punishments alone. it's like, you just cannot accept the possibility that a child will learn that the worst thing that he'll ever get for outright rebellion will be a stern talking to and a time out. if the child knows that nothing will really be done, what's to stop him from walking out the door while your trying to engage his empathy. what if he doesn't have a sense of empathy? so you take away his car keys. and if he dumps your purse on the ground and takes your keys and leaves in the car? what then?
maybe your kid wouldn't. some would.

not every kid has an ipod or cell pohne or computer or xbox or such that can be taken away. my kids were around 8 or 9 before we finally allowed a playstation into the house, they will be at least 16 when they get a cell, because i'm not paying for one.

i freely admit that spanking isn't always required, if often used when it shouldn't be.
can you admit that sometimes there are kids that don't respond as desired to a no spanking ever style of parenting?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All right ,Buttercup, if you don't stop this arguing and back talk, you are going to get a spanking. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. I respect your point of view and rather enjoy this argument.


Promise? Wink Big Grin

Yeah, I've noticed a couple of people asking whether or not I was spanked as a child/making comments like, "I'm guessing Buttercup was not spanked as a child."

I know what's going on. They're all implying that I'm in need of a spanking. Sadists! They can get their kicks on Route 66, not on Buttercup.
No, buttercup, sorry,but I won't PM you pediatricians names...there is no need for you to investigate- like I said it's a parenting style, not a public issue-
I mean,really. You expect me to tell you which peds I have seen spank on the soccer/baseball/school field?
Oh, and to answer your question, I draw the line at CHILD ABUSE. Not a spanking. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


oh good god.
this is on my 'top ten list of stupidest things ever said' list.

are you seriously trying to equate child molestation with spanking?

i was begining to respect you as an intellegent, thoughtful person who was merely on the opposite end of this issue from me.

now i'm begining to think you really are one of the free-ager, leftover-hippie wannabe nutjob types that think all the kids at the ball game need to get a trophy because it would be horrible if any one acctually lost, who thinks their kids would never ever misbehave only to find out that your 15 year old is now about to be a mother because they never learned right from wrong, good form bad, smart from stupid - because all they learned is to make sure they snuck around behind moms back and if they kept her clueless they could get away with whatever and your 17 year old son is the biggest drug deal at school, because mom really believed those weird looking plants mixed in with her begonias are just a project from science class last year... you know.. a simple, oblivious bimbo with blinders on who paints a coat of laquer over how she wants to see the world and calls it the truth, regardless of how many times she's presented with cold hard fact that the world isn't a pretty fluffy place liek she wants to believe it is.

i could be wrong. i hope i'm wrong. i was begining to like you, but to put me in the same company as a child molester? that's outragously insulting and makes me more than just a little angry -
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Here is an ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC article from Parenting Magazine - a Q&A with Dr. William Sears.

Dr. Sears' background:

Author of over 30 books on childcare. Dr. Sears is an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine. Dr. Sears received his pediatric training at Harvard Medical School's Children's Hospital in Boston and The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto -- the largest children’s hospital in the world, where he served as associate ward chief of the newborn nursery and associate professor of pediatrics. Dr. Sears is a fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and a fellow of the Royal College of Pediatricians (RCP). Dr. Sears is also a medical and parenting consultant for BabyTalk and Parenting magazines and the pediatrician on the website.


Oh, I know, he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?


dunno. maybe he does. but he isn't raiseing my kids, so i don't care much what he thinks.

should i start doing google search for quotes from people with ph'ds who think spanking IS necessary?

would it make you change your mind?

would you even read it?

i didn't read yours, there was no point. you pop up words form someone who already agrees with you, and it going to argue against my belief.. no.. my knowledge that useing a paddle worked quite well for my wife and i.
i *know* it worked for us. you cna spout theory and test and studies and quotes form all the limpwristed big-brains you can think of, but it won't change what i've seen in action.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All right ,Buttercup, if you don't stop this arguing and back talk, you are going to get a spanking. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. I respect your point of view and rather enjoy this argument.


so did i, until she called me a child molester.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


oh good god.
this is on my 'top ten list of stupidest things ever said' list.

are you seriously trying to equate child molestation with spanking?

i was begining to respect you as an intellegent, thoughtful person who was merely on the opposite end of this issue from me.

now i'm begining to think you really are one of the free-ager, leftover-hippie wannabe nutjob types that think all the kids at the ball game need to get a trophy because it would be horrible if any one acctually lost, who thinks their kids would never ever misbehave only to find out that your 15 year old is now about to be a mother because they never learned right from wrong, good form bad, smart from stupid - because all they learned is to make sure they snuck around behind moms back and if they kept her clueless they could get away with whatever and your 17 year old son is the biggest drug deal at school, because mom really believed those weird looking plants mixed in with her begonias are just a project from science class last year... you know.. a simple, oblivious bimbo with blinders on who paints a coat of laquer over how she wants to see the world and calls it the truth, regardless of how many times she's presented with cold hard fact that the world isn't a pretty fluffy place liek she wants to believe it is.

i could be wrong. i hope i'm wrong. i was begining to like you, but to put me in the same company as a child molester? that's outragously insulting and makes me more than just a little angry -


thenagel,

Slow down. And why aren't you putting into use the period key on your keyboard? That's one heckuva run-on sentence.

Take a deep breath and read my post again. I did not in any way imply that parents who spank their children are child molesters; I asked a question. There's a difference between asking questions and making full-on assumptions.

You are not familiar with my modus operandi, so YOU don't make assumptions yet either, okay?

....and all the kids at the ballgame shouldn't get a trophy? Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All right ,Buttercup, if you don't stop this arguing and back talk, you are going to get a spanking. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. I respect your point of view and rather enjoy this argument.


so did i, until she called me a child molester.


Good Lord! Show me where in my post I called you or vplee123 a child molester.

First of all, I thought vplee123 was a woman. Secondly, I asked, "IF A FATHER WAS MOLESTING HIS CHILD...", not "If vplee123 was molesting his child..."

The point of the question was to find out where vplee123 would draw the line. If it's nobody's business how you discipline your child, is it your business that YOUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR is molesting his child?

Again, you're implying some sort of ownership of the child. Couldn't a child-molesting father argue the same thing: It's no one's business?

thenagel, I'm asking this of vplee.
quote:
Again, you're implying some sort of ownership of the child. Couldn't a child-molesting father argue the same thing: It's no one's business?


The difference, buttercup is that one act is criminal, and the other is not.
Spanking is a method of discipline. Nothing more, nothing less. Child molestation is a criminal act. We as a society to have a moral obligation to report/protect those children.
Now, spanking does not fall into this category.
I cannot tell you how many times I have swatted my kids (4 of them) behinds. And when I do, it is NO FUN, but it is sometimes necessary. And I can also assure you that they are healthy, happy well adjusted children.
To equate spanking with child molestation is preposterous.
Anyway, like I've said, we're prolly not going to agree on this- I don't buy in to Dr. Sears philosophies. And I have read it all. I especially disagree with his theory on co-sleeping. Worst mistake we ever made! Smiler
I am more on the "Dr. Ferber" end of the spectrum. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


Okay, I just re-read my post and can see where you think that's what I was asking. Sorry. I should have been more thoughtful with how I posed the question.

What I meant by "a father" was anyone, a neighbor, a friend. If you as a neighbor or friend or whatever knew about it, would it be your business to call the authorities and report it?
We all have a moral obligation to protect our children. (and by "our" I mean as a society).
We are morally obligated to report suspected child abuse: molestation, physical assault, etc.
My point is, that spanking does not fall into this category.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.


You do, huh? Names?

If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.

The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?

Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.


I'm confused -- are you implying that a pediatrician that endorses spanking is not fit to be a peditrician or should be removed from being a pediatrician? They are entitled to their opinions as well as any researcher is -- so I don't understand why them agreeing that a swat might be just what the doctor ordered just as much as an apple a day will keep the doctor away? My pediatrician didn't have a sign on his wall telling me spanking was the best discipline, but he also wasn't big on "time out" either. He's retired now, but he was a great physician and while he gave great advice -- he never said spanking was a bad thing. Then again, there is a major difference between a spanking and a beating -- spanking and the fear of worked for me and my siblings.

I see all your research, but just like with statistics -- you can make some things bend and twist to say anything you want it to say. How I discipline my child is my business and how my neighbor disciplines his child is his business. If he were physically abusing and sexually abusing his child -- I would report him.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I daresay Pediatricians who are also parents will be divided on this debate as well.In fact, I **KNOW** some pediatricians that spank their children. Even use the "switch".
You are never going to get people to agree on this topic, I'm afraid. I will never stop spanking my kids when they deserve it, and a nonspanker will never suddenly bring out the switch/paddle....
this is an "agree to disagree" moment.



When my daughter was 3, and in daycare, she would come home with bite marks, courtesy of a kid in her class. The aides at the daycare were of no help, citing all sorts of Dr. Spock crap. One visit to her pediatrician for an unrelated incident produced a solution: Her pediatrician said if she was bitten again, have her bite the kid back to show him how it felt. He bit her again, she bit back. End of story.
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.


You do, huh? Names?

If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.

The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?

Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.


I'm confused -- are you implying that a pediatrician that endorses spanking is not fit to be a peditrician or should be removed from being a pediatrician? They are entitled to their opinions as well as any researcher is -- so I don't understand why them agreeing that a swat might be just what the doctor ordered just as much as an apple a day will keep the doctor away? My pediatrician didn't have a sign on his wall telling me spanking was the best discipline, but he also wasn't big on "time out" either. He's retired now, but he was a great physician and while he gave great advice -- he never said spanking was a bad thing. Then again, there is a major difference between a spanking and a beating -- spanking and the fear of worked for me and my siblings.

I see all your research, but just like with statistics -- you can make some things bend and twist to say anything you want it to say. How I discipline my child is my business and how my neighbor disciplines his child is his business. If he were physically abusing and sexually abusing his child -- I would report him.


Yes, I know research means nothing to some people except when it concerns drug trials or cancer break-throughs. Then those people pay attention to it.

But none of you - especially in this part of the country - will admit that you only spank your children because momma-and-daddy did and it's the only way you know. There is tons and tons of information about the research available supporting my position (so this isn't coming from Buttercup). There are so many BETTER alternatives to spanking. But it doesn't matter, it's not what momma-and-daddy did.

God himself could appear before some of you and tell you he didn't mean for you to take "Spare the rod...." literally, but you'd still spank because that's what momma-and-daddy did.

So go ahead, switch their little legs, tan their little behinds, make that belt mean some business because discipline isn't at all about the child or the child learning anything or the child's future; it's about the parents and what their own momma-and-daddy did.

Turn out more kids who are more likely to become violent as teenagers and adults; who are more likely to abuse their own spouses; who are more likely to be bullies, alcoholics, socially withdrawn. Go ahead, because that's what momma-and-daddy did.
As has been previously pointed out, the whole 'spare the rod' thingy isn't actually IN the Bible. However, God DID say, in the Old Testament. unruly and disrespectful children should be 'stoned to death'. Today's kids are lucky that we don't live under Old Testament law, huh?
Buttercup, the whole debate on spanking can produce polls and studies on both sides. I was spanked as a kid and at the time hated it of course. But when my dad was dying 4 years ago in his last days I thanked him for those spankings. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used spanking as a method of discipline. I personally think this country needs more spaniking based on the behavior of kids today, but that's just my opinion. The main argument people on here have is personal freedom. Progressives want to take away our personal freedom because in their eyes we don't have enough sense to think for ourselves. I don't want government to tell me how to raise my child, what foods I can eat, what medical care I can use, what light bulbs I can burn, etc. I'm for limited government and states rights. You have a right to discipline your child in your manner. I want to keep the right to do the same.
quote:
Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
As has been previously pointed out, the whole 'spare the rod' thingy isn't actually IN the Bible. However, God DID say, in the Old Testament. unruly and disrespectful children should be 'stoned to death'. Today's kids are lucky that we don't live under Old Testament law, huh?


This is one time I have to correct you, Dog. Spare the rod is in the Bible.
Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly."

While it might not be the exact wording most commonly used by proponents of spanking, it's pretty self-explanatory. This is where I depart from reprimanding you, Dog.

Buttercup should realize that not all spanking is carried out appropriately. This is how it should go:
1)Never spank your child when you're mad as a hornet. Emotion can sometimes stand in the way of reason.
2)Before the spanking, talk with your child about why their actions warrant spanking. Let them know that you love them.
3)Spank. A simple open palm on the rear will suffice. Don't make them pull their pants down. That's just strange.
4)Love on them.

It sometimes hurts MY feelings to have to spank my son, but I know he'll be a better person for it.
Buttercup, your whole arguement that "mommy and daddy did it" and current parents "don't know" any other methods is incorrect.

Spanking is not hereditary. Sure, maybe people that were spanked are more likely to do it, but that is not a hard fast rule.
I am a very educated person, having taken many psychology courses at the University Level, nursing school, etc.
I know more psychology and sociology than my parents ever did. But guess what? If my child(ren) backtalk or do something that warrants it, their bottoms will be swatted....
It has nothing to do with my parents' discipline of me, nor education. It just works for some kids.
AND implying that you need to "investigate" pediatricians who spank their own kids just really shows that you don't understand the difference between child abuse, and appropriate disciplinary spanking.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.


You do, huh? Names?

If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.

The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?

Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.


I'm confused -- are you implying that a pediatrician that endorses spanking is not fit to be a peditrician or should be removed from being a pediatrician? They are entitled to their opinions as well as any researcher is -- so I don't understand why them agreeing that a swat might be just what the doctor ordered just as much as an apple a day will keep the doctor away? My pediatrician didn't have a sign on his wall telling me spanking was the best discipline, but he also wasn't big on "time out" either. He's retired now, but he was a great physician and while he gave great advice -- he never said spanking was a bad thing. Then again, there is a major difference between a spanking and a beating -- spanking and the fear of worked for me and my siblings.

I see all your research, but just like with statistics -- you can make some things bend and twist to say anything you want it to say. How I discipline my child is my business and how my neighbor disciplines his child is his business. If he were physically abusing and sexually abusing his child -- I would report him.


Yes, I know research means nothing to some people except when it concerns drug trials or cancer break-throughs. Then those people pay attention to it.

But none of you - especially in this part of the country - will admit that you only spank your children because momma-and-daddy did and it's the only way you know. There is tons and tons of information about the research available supporting my position (so this isn't coming from Buttercup). There are so many BETTER alternatives to spanking. But it doesn't matter, it's not what momma-and-daddy did.

God himself could appear before some of you and tell you he didn't mean for you to take "Spare the rod...." literally, but you'd still spank because that's what momma-and-daddy did.

So go ahead, switch their little legs, tan their little behinds, make that belt mean some business because discipline isn't at all about the child or the child learning anything or the child's future; it's about the parents and what their own momma-and-daddy did.

Turn out more kids who are more likely to become violent as teenagers and adults; who are more likely to abuse their own spouses; who are more likely to be bullies, alcoholics, socially withdrawn. Go ahead, because that's what momma-and-daddy did.


You didn't respond to my question about the pediatrician -- I am curious if you truly think a ped that doesn't rail against the wrongs of spankings shouldn't be a ped?

I am curious though -- what alternatives would you recommend to spanking? What enlightening options are there that work every time so that I can never have to spank my child again, but I won't have to constantly be getting on to my child?

Two things: 1. I don't spank because Momma and Daddy did -- now you are the one making assumptions -- you are using "research" that has no "facts" to support it. 2. not every child that has been spanked is violent and truth be told that statistic is skewed, but since it is research -- whatever. I contract with a juvenile facility -- if you were to poll those kids -- yes you'd get a 100% violence rate to being spanked (40 kids violent and they will all say they were spanked), but if you poll my 7 year old's class room -- you'd get about a 5% violence rate (18 kids 1 kid is the violent one). Big difference in who you poll to get your statistics to fit the outcome of your research. These researchers go into this type of idea with preconceived conclusions and they use what benefits them and what doesn't is considered "insignificant" -- you that +/- 4% thing on most statistics. I pay attention to research but I know enough to know that it is not written in stone and that it has human hands in it so it cannot be taken as law. I give it its due if I don't know of something else in my life that contradicts it. But no one should ever take research as absolute and final. Period.


Yes, in some situations there are better alternatives, but one good swat stops most problems for a long time. No one spanks their child every day or even every week for that matter, but how many times a day do you have to put a child in time out? How many times a week do you have to send a child to their room? How many times a year do you have to take away that cell phone? How many times does your child have to "pull a red tab at school"? How long does it take for your child to "grow out" of their behavior when alternatives are used? How many more family arguments do you have to endure? I had a great childhood and I remember every spanking I got -- but I remember the loving family that I had right there with that. I was never spanked that I didn't know why I was spanked and I was never disciplined that I wasn't "talked to" before or after to make sure I understood.
Well said eastside. maybe what buttercup and researchers fail to realize is there's a wrong way and a right way to administer a spanking. Does everyone know the right way, of course not. Does everyone know the right way to administer alternative punishment, of course not. I don't mind the debate whether spanking is a good punishment or not. I do mind the government or anyone else telling me how to raise my child.
Another Buttercup said about people listening to research on cancer etc but not about this......Some research says that if you smoke you will get cancer -- that's not always true. Some research says if you get X kind of cancer you have less than 2 weeks to live -- that's not necessarily true. Everyone has to glean out the information for themselves and research should only be a guideline. Research may show A, but it does not mean that A is ALWAYS true. I have a friend that had brain cancer and was told it was a death sentence and she should get her affairs in order and that she had 2 weeks -- She lived another 3 years. Statistically, melanoma is another cancer I have a friend that has and she has beat the odds countless times -- so much so she is now the subject of others research because she is an anomaly. When you take research at face value you become a slave to what others tell you is true -- you have to experience -- not just read -- to discern good information from bad. Discernment is key and some people don't have that at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
What about nosy bodies at the store telling you how to (not) discipline your child?


I'm all for butting in if the parent slaps the child in the face. Woe be unto that person if I ever see it.


Speaking of "back-handing" -- I was never backhanded by my parents, but I was abused by an ex-boyfriend in my teens. He had a history of abuse by his alcoholic father and his pill popping mother. Big difference in abuse and discipline. His background was of his mother never disciplining him out of guilt and his dad beating him up and him picking his dad up from the bars at age 15. He had major issues needless to say. I put up with his abuse for over 2 years and survived to tell the tale.
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
Buttercup, the whole debate on spanking can produce polls and studies on both sides. I was spanked as a kid and at the time hated it of course. But when my dad was dying 4 years ago in his last days I thanked him for those spankings. I can count on one hand the number of times I have used spanking as a method of discipline. I personally think this country needs more spaniking based on the behavior of kids today, but that's just my opinion. The main argument people on here have is personal freedom. Progressives want to take away our personal freedom because in their eyes we don't have enough sense to think for ourselves. I don't want government to tell me how to raise my child, what foods I can eat, what medical care I can use, what light bulbs I can burn, etc. I'm for limited government and states rights. You have a right to discipline your child in your manner. I want to keep the right to do the same.


It's funny how some of you want gov't out of every aspect of your lives but at the same time are okay with the Supreme Court making decisions for people, like overturning Roe v Wade. Interesting.

The gov't has to regulate certain things. You can trust some things to privately-owned enterprise, but not everything, simply because businesses only care about profits, not people. At least I can have a reasonable expectation that gov't is looking out for me, if only slightly more than a business would.

You want to talk about the ability to think for yourself and make your own choices? You want to talk about the fear of gov't controlling your life?

Well, I don't want to be part of an insurance pool where other people on the plan are fat smokers because they run up my premiums and co-pays when they go to the doctor for their maladies over and over again. I don't want MY insurance company - who I pay monthly premiums to - telling me when I can and can't have procedures and surgeries when my doctor suggests otherwise. You say "gov't run" healthcare will do this when insurance companies ALREADY do it all the time.

The right-wingers don't seem to care very much about earth's limited resources, either (your light bulb comment). You think it's fine to buy and drive the biggest gas-guzzling SUVs and sneer at people who want to conserve. You think corporations should have the right to pollute all they want without gov't restrictions as long as they are making money. No thoughts about the cancers all this polluting causes. As long as there's a profit to be made, it's okay.

You've got me pegged as a progressive just because all my views don't fit into a neat little box like yours do. My political beliefs are actually complex and I would certainly not consider some of them "progressive" - in the way you mean the word.

For example:

I believe we should have done something about illegal immigration a long time ago, which doesn't include amnesty for those who broke the law to get here. Having said that, I don't blame the illegals who only want to find work - specifically, I am talking about illegals from Mexico; if I lived there, I'd try to come here too.

Their gov't is so corrupted by things like drug cartels that it's not possible at this time for them to take care of their own citizens. Is that our problem? No. I would suggest a revolution to the citizens of Mexico to change things and make their own country inhabitable.

I am not pro-union for the most part because the need for unions has come and gone, except for very dangerous industries like coal mining and oil refinery jobs. Why am I pro-union in those circumstances? Because if you work in these jobs and speak up about additional dangers, you are likely to be fired. Businesses understand money. The bottom line is their bottom line. Improvements cost and bosses don't like complainers. As an example, you need to look no further than the recent loss of life at the coal mine in W Virginia. These people need someone looking out for them.

Conversely, I know people who have worked in management positions in a union environment. I've seen how their hands are tied in terms of what disciplinary measures they can take; problems with absenteeism; having to fill out endless reports - on top of their already busy schedules.

I know someone in management, for example, who's had to deal with a nearly sixty-year-old, 400 pound, heavy smoker who (surprise!) had a heart attack. Not only did he try to file for workman's comp, but also hired an attorney. That's pretty ridiculous and it costs a business a lot of money to deal with it and, in turn, costs customers more.

This man's weight, eating and smoking habits were pretty ridiculous too. Do I want government telling me what I should eat? No. At the same time, people aren't getting the message that eating right and staying somewhat active is the only way to prevent health problems. So the gov't tries to do things like limit the salt added to processed foods, and Michelle Obama asks cereal makers to give parents a little help and limit the amount of sugar in cereals, and the right screams, "Get out of my personal business!" But we can't go on like this, it's too expensive and is costing too many lives.

I've made it pretty clear that I was not for the wars, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN I don't agree there are terrorists who are a threat to our freedom who need to be dealt with. I just believe there are less expensive ways to do it than these wars.

So, ferrellj, I actually see both sides of the issues.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Buttercup, your whole arguement that "mommy and daddy did it" and current parents "don't know" any other methods is incorrect.

Spanking is not hereditary. Sure, maybe people that were spanked are more likely to do it, but that is not a hard fast rule.
I am a very educated person, having taken many psychology courses at the University Level, nursing school, etc.
I know more psychology and sociology than my parents ever did. But guess what? If my child(ren) backtalk or do something that warrants it, their bottoms will be swatted....
It has nothing to do with my parents' discipline of me, nor education. It just works for some kids.
AND implying that you need to "investigate" pediatricians who spank their own kids just really shows that you don't understand the difference between child abuse, and appropriate disciplinary spanking.


What I meant by "investigate" is actually call the doctors' offices and ask why pro-spanking is their position.

I've know a few pediatricians myself and have never come across one who encourages spanking. I know this because it's one of the first questions I ask in the interview process.
To Eastside:

quote:
You didn't respond to my question about the pediatrician -- I am curious if you truly think a ped that doesn't rail against the wrongs of spankings shouldn't be a ped?


Yes. I say that because if she believes spanking is an acceptable and successful form of discipline - when there's so much evidence to the contrary - I would have to question her judgment on other issues. That's my opinion and, as a parent, I have a right to it. But, then again, not all physicians are the same. There are some excellent ones and there are the ones who have their licenses revoked for malpractice.

quote:
I contract with a juvenile facility -- if you were to poll those kids -- yes you'd get a 100% violence rate to being spanked (40 kids violent and they will all say they were spanked), but if you poll my 7 year old's class room -- you'd get about a 5% violence rate (18 kids 1 kid is the violent one). Big difference in who you poll to get your statistics to fit the outcome of your research.


Well, I don't know how much I can trust your poll or any of your research since you yourself said:

quote:
These researchers go into this type of idea with preconceived conclusions and they use what benefits them and what doesn't is considered "insignificant" -- you that +/- 4% thing on most statistics. I pay attention to research but I know enough to know that it is not written in stone and that it has human hands in it so it cannot be taken as law. I give it its due if I don't know of something else in my life that contradicts it. But no one should ever take research as absolute and final. Period.


But let's say your 5% violence rate (kids who were spanked) is correct. Aren't better alternatives to spanking - that we know exist in 2010 - worth using to squash that 5% violence rate? Wouldn't you want to do everything possible to ensure your child doesn't become a bully; isn't withdrawn; doesn't become and alcoholic; doesn't abuse his future wife?

Conversely, you will not find any research anywhere that concludes alternatives to spanking create future violent children. Lack of spanking DOES NOT set a child up for jail time in his future; however, spanking can. The key to the "alternatives to spanking" argument is consistency. The problem is parents make empty promises about consequences for actions and the child learns his parents aren't serious, then repeats the behavior.

quote:
No one spanks their child every day or even every week for that matter


Now you are the one making assumptions. How do you know that NO ONE spanks their child every day or even every week? You somehow have access to the goings on in every household in America?

quote:
but how many times a day do you have to put a child in time out? How many times a week do you have to send a child to their room?


quote:
How long does it take for your child to "grow out" of their behavior when alternatives are used?


Speaking for myself, very infrequently because my child(ren) "got it" a long time ago. How many times have you spanked your child? If it worked so well, why do parents have to repeat the action?
quote:
It's funny how some of you want gov't out of every aspect of your lives but at the same time are okay with the Supreme Court making decisions for people, like overturning Roe v Wade. Interesting.


Two completely COMPLETELY different issues, buttercup.
Abortion is murder, to "we" conservative Christians. Spanking is discipline. To equate the two is prepostorous.
I want the government to make murder (abortion) illegal. I believe it to be the downfall of our society.
I want the government to make Child abuse (Psychological, sexual and physical). illegal. which it is, and I hope perps are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
But if I swat my child's behind in Target, that's my business.
AND about your stance with the pediatrician? COME ON! You imply that peds that condone spanking are par with physicians that have been found guilty of malpractice?
For once and for all, this is a PARENTING ISSUE, not a criminal/medical one.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
It's funny how some of you want gov't out of every aspect of your lives but at the same time are okay with the Supreme Court making decisions for people, like overturning Roe v Wade. Interesting.


Two completely COMPLETELY different issues, buttercup.
Abortion is murder, to "we" conservative Christians. Spanking is discipline. To equate the two is prepostorous.
I want the government to make murder (abortion) illegal. I believe it to be the downfall of our society.
I want the government to make Child abuse (Psychological, sexual and physical). illegal. which it is, and I hope perps are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
But if I swat my child's behind in Target, that's my business.
AND about your stance with the pediatrician? COME ON! You imply that peds that condone spanking are par with physicians that have been found guilty of malpractice?
For once and for all, this is a PARENTING ISSUE, not a criminal/medical one.


Wrong! If you don't want others making decisions for you then "others" means everyone. You can't have it both ways - others includes government AND the Supreme Court.

And not everyone is a Christian....and not everyone thinks abortion is the same as murder.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
To Eastside:

quote:
You didn't respond to my question about the pediatrician -- I am curious if you truly think a ped that doesn't rail against the wrongs of spankings shouldn't be a ped?


Yes. I say that because if she believes spanking is an acceptable and successful form of discipline - when there's so much evidence to the contrary - I would have to question her judgment on other issues. That's my opinion and, as a parent, I have a right to it. But, then again, not all physicians are the same. There are some excellent ones and there are the ones who have their licenses revoked for malpractice.

quote:
I contract with a juvenile facility -- if you were to poll those kids -- yes you'd get a 100% violence rate to being spanked (40 kids violent and they will all say they were spanked), but if you poll my 7 year old's class room -- you'd get about a 5% violence rate (18 kids 1 kid is the violent one). Big difference in who you poll to get your statistics to fit the outcome of your research.


Well, I don't know how much I can trust your poll or any of your research since you yourself said:

quote:
These researchers go into this type of idea with preconceived conclusions and they use what benefits them and what doesn't is considered "insignificant" -- you that +/- 4% thing on most statistics. I pay attention to research but I know enough to know that it is not written in stone and that it has human hands in it so it cannot be taken as law. I give it its due if I don't know of something else in my life that contradicts it. But no one should ever take research as absolute and final. Period.


But let's say your 5% violence rate (kids who were spanked) is correct. Aren't better alternatives to spanking - that we know exist in 2010 - worth using to squash that 5% violence rate? Wouldn't you want to do everything possible to ensure your child doesn't become a bully; isn't withdrawn; doesn't become and alcoholic; doesn't abuse his future wife?

Conversely, you will not find any research anywhere that concludes alternatives to spanking create future violent children. Lack of spanking DOES NOT set a child up for jail time in his future; however, spanking can. The key to the "alternatives to spanking" argument is consistency. The problem is parents make empty promises about consequences for actions and the child learns his parents aren't serious, then repeats the behavior.

quote:
No one spanks their child every day or even every week for that matter


Now you are the one making assumptions. How do you know that NO ONE spanks their child every day or even every week? You somehow have access to the goings on in every household in America?

quote:
but how many times a day do you have to put a child in time out? How many times a week do you have to send a child to their room?


quote:
How long does it take for your child to "grow out" of their behavior when alternatives are used?


Speaking for myself, very infrequently because my child(ren) "got it" a long time ago. How many times have you spanked your child? If it worked so well, why do parents have to repeat the action?



How to respond? You proved my point exactly with quoting me on the research – no research is absolute – there are always human touches – I’m glad you wouldn’t take my “research” as solid because that was a not a scientific research by any means – just what I know of the kids in the class. However, no I don’t want a Utopia that you want-- I wouldn’t want to quash that 5% at the outside chance that not spanking could increase that 5% and before you say it wouldn’t happen – you don’t know. You said there is no research that shows “not spanking” produces violent kids –um, probably because there aren’t many researchers that want to prove that spanking works. Why would they? There’s no money in that research. However, for many of us, there is history that proves it does in many cases. Not every kid in juvenile detention was spanked and there are many that are just like you – they did the best they could and tried not to show their child anger and violence and they still have a kid that is angry and violent. There is a mix of kids from upper class homes that had it all with the silver spoon and were never spanked or at least rarely spanked just as there are kids that grew up in hell like my ex that have serious issues.

As for the No one spanks every day. Anyone that spanks every day is most like abusing their child so therefore, I wouldn’t consider that discipline I would consider that abuse and that would not be what I’m discussing here. However, I will say that you are grasping at straws to poke holes in my opinion by picking out that line as your stomping point, but that’s ok. You are one of the few on this one. You are entitled to your opinion as am I, but to use research to call those of us that do believe it works pretty much ignorant – is as skewed as your research you use to back up your opinion. Just state it as your opinion and let it go.

As for how many times have I spanked my child? Not many because the fear works just fine and dandy. Most times the action is not repeated for the same offense – therefore, it (just like your time outs and your taking away privileges) happens when it needs too and not when it doesn’t.

Now to your comment about the government. I don’t want the government is my business whether that is insurance premiums or how I discipline my child. If they can do such a grand job at running things why are we in debt to China up to our ears and our prisons are overcrowded? They took corporal punishment out of the school and they took prayer out of the schools and yet we still have violent offenders entering the system every day – thousands more now than we had 20 and 30 years ago. Roe vs. Wade may never be overturned but that doesn’t mean the government knows what is best for us. They just realized that women were going to have abortions anyway – at least with law on their side they could get money from the political movements and they could make abortions safer for women that choose the option. It doesn’t make it righteous by any means. By the way, I am Pro-Life, but I think it should be the woman’s choice. Of course, I think women should have guts enough to consult the father to see what he would want too since it does take 2 to tango.
Eastside:

quote:
However, I will say that you are grasping at straws to poke holes in my opinion by picking out that line as your stomping point, but that’s ok. You are one of the few on this one. You are entitled to your opinion as am I, but to use research to call those of us that do believe it works pretty much ignorant – is as skewed as your research you use to back up your opinion. Just state it as your opinion and let it go.


Wait a minute! I never called you, Eastside, ignorant and that is far from what I think of you. I disagree with you on many issues, but have always respected your opinions. They are well thought-out and I've NEVER seen you attack someone personally.

I picked that out because I was accused by other posters of making assumptions with some of my statements, then you accused me of making assumptions in an earlier post. I was pointing out to you that you were making assumptions as well. Look, I'm quite sure there are parents who spank their kids weekly that would object to being thought of as abusers and would debate you forever about it - much like we're doing here.

quote:
If they can do such a grand job at running things why are we in debt to China up to our ears and our prisons are overcrowded?


I never said the government did a grand job. I've said I don't understand why everyone freaks about the fear of intrusion on certain things but not on others; Roe v Wade is a good example of that because I personally don't want some justices making decisions about my body. Apparently, the extreme right is okay with this, but cries the fastest and loudest when government control of anything is mentioned.

Also, all you've been hearing from the right this past year is how government will be approving or denying care and how there will be death panels - which, btw, is still quite funny (Thanks, Sarah!) - if a healthcare bill is passed. But none of you admit that private insurance companies already approve or deny as they wish right now. The right is not concerned about healthcare premiums continuing to go up year after year. I don't understand that.

quote:
They took corporal punishment out of the school and they took prayer out of the schools and yet we still have violent offenders entering the system every day – thousands more now than we had 20 and 30 years ago.


Okay, you're oversimplifying with that statement. So taking corporal punishment and prayer out of school leads to an increase in violent offenders? It is your position that there are no other factors that contribute to this? Sorry, but I don't buy that just because Bobby wasn't paddled and exposed to daily Bible verses over the intercom, he ended up in the system. Please.

quote:
Roe vs. Wade may never be overturned but that doesn’t mean the government knows what is best for us.


And, again, the Supreme Court doesn't know what's best for me either.

quote:
They just realized that women were going to have abortions anyway – at least with law on their side they could get money from the political movements and they could make abortions safer for women that choose the option. It doesn’t make it righteous by any means. By the way, I am Pro-Life, but I think it should be the woman’s choice. Of course, I think women should have guts enough to consult the father to see what he would want too since it does take 2 to tango


On this I agree with you. Having the law on their side meant women could finally have safe abortions, as opposed to dying from hemorrhaging or infection from the back alley kind.

Eastside, the bottom line for me is the vast majority of pediatricians, child psychologists, child development experts, psychiatrists, etc. discourage spanking. And from my own experience and the experiences of my friends who are parents, I know it is the right way to go.

Period.

You know we could go round and round on this one. Personally, I think the thread has outlived its usefulness since almost everyone who's posted on this thread seems to be of the same mind; there's no way to distinguish one of your opinions from the other. So I am outnumbered on this particular forum; I knew that before I posted the study.

I find a lack of diverse opinions boring. But if you all are content living in Stepford-ville, enjoy. Just realize there's a big world out there beyond the borders of Colbert and Lauderdale Counties.

(On a lighter note, Eastside, I have to wonder how many prayer lists I've made with all this "pro-choice" talk. LOL!)
quote:
Wrong! If you don't want others making decisions for you then "others" means everyone


Sorry, but I have to comment on this. There is a vast difference here.
In "choosing" an abortion, a woman is not exerting choice over her own body- she is making a "choice" on an unborn baby.
Just felt the need to clarify- I hate that "It's my body" arguement!

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