Talk about the 'pot' calling the 'kettle' black. All that has been 'proven' in this exchange of beliefs is that we all agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
AMEN Dogsoldier. I have 6 children and 4 of them are out on their own being well adjusted adults. They all have children of their own and work, pay taxes and stay out of trouble. Hum I wonder how Miss buttercups little Jonny will fair? Only time will tell.
Yes, we can agree to disagree.
quote:
I never said this was appropriate workplace discipline. However, as a Christian, "spare the rod and spoil the child" was not a suggestion. It doesn't say to spare the rod from the child and do all you can to spoil the child. The verse implies that, without proper discipline, a child will go bad (spoil).
Here we go with the old "spare the rod and spoil the child" stuff. This is not a literal command - just like you can't take much of what the bible says literally - but that's a concept you don't comprehend. God meant for us to set boundaries and discipline our kids (discipline means "teach", not hit). You don't have to spank your kids and make them fear you to make them mind. I know this because I know way too many parents who have done it.
quote:
You can post references to all the studies you want. I can post references to personal life experiences. It has been my experience that the worst-behaved children I've seen in my nearly 40 years of existence are the ones who have been spared the rod. My 6 year old is the best-behaved of all his cousins and is the one who receives proper discipline. The rest get "Now, so-and-so, don't do that. That's not nice. If you do it again. . ." over and over and over, until the situation escalates to a point where I've felt it necessary to say something. Then, some parent gets his/her feelings hurt because I had the stones to tell their brat to knock it off immediately or suffer. Guess what. . . The poor behavior was culled that instant.
Your six-year-old's cousins had no limits imposed on them, simple as that.
quote:
You don't talk to kids like they're your friend when you're trying to enforce the rules. There's a time for being friends and there's a time for being a parent.
LOL! Show me where I've said on this thread, or any thread, that parents should be friends with their kids. Don't take the conversation in a new direction just because you can't argue a point.
quote:Originally posted by OpinionsVary2:
Talk about the 'pot' calling the 'kettle' black. All that has been 'proven' in this exchange of beliefs is that we all agree to disagree.
AMEN Dogsoldier. I have 6 children and 4 of them are out on their own being well adjusted adults. They all have children of their own and work, pay taxes and stay out of trouble. Hum I wonder how Miss buttercups little Jonny will fair? Only time will tell.
Yes, we can agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
And that's all because they were spanked, right? I'm glad your kids turned out well, but it's not because they were spanked.
Give us some more brilliant insight, will ya?
Another fine example of your extraordinary acumen:
quote:Originally posted by OpinionsVary2:
I'll explain. The work place too has become touchy feely. It just about takes a full board meeting with a unanimous vote to have someone that does not do their job or has poor performance written up. Now days they give you counseling and flex time to help out if you’re late or having a problem doing your job. Wow, used to they would just fire you and put a explanation in you file. So the next employer can ask you if you have worked out those problems and question you if they are going to have the same problem with you. No corporal punishment in the work place would probably be welcomed instead of being fired/docked pay and a write up placed in you file.
quote:Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:quote:Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':
I think I am with you on the fact that schools should not use corporal punishment, its not their place in my opinion. That is the parents job (as well as anyone the parents designate as having that right and responsibility). Just because you are a teacher or a principle, doesnt automatically give you that right.
Jeepin'
I beg to differ. Check out the legal definition of loco in parentis: In loco parentis is a legal doctrine describing a relationship similar to that of a parent to a child. It refers to an individual who assumes parental status and responsibilities for another individual, usually a young person, without formally adopting that person. By far the most common usage of in loco parentis relates to teachers and students.
Now that I have competed my quote, as I stated at the beginning of that statement, it was my opinion. It is apparent that it is not illegal, or there would be numerous school officials in prison right now for assault. 'Owning' of another human being was legal at one time, that didnt make it right. It is not right for someone to 'assume' that they have the right to physically punish a child that is not legally theirs.
And that doctrine would be very questionable to me, which is probably why the US district courts are still trying to clarify the rights of students regarding corporal punishment.. Where does that right actually end? Does a teacher have the right to approve medical procedures on children that are in their care? Why is it that parents have to give permission for their children to go on field trips, does the teacher not bear enough responsibility for the child to grant that permission? So, the school administration has just enough responsibility to inflict physical punishment, but nothing else? Truth be told, from what I read, the application has been upheld mostly for reasons regarding the safety and security of the students. How does corporal punishment address students safety and security? It doesnt surprise me, however, that this issue has been argued back and forth since the 60's....
Jeepin'
Sorry, Jeepin'. I overlooked the word 'opinion' in your post.
One area in which school systems unnecessarily involve themselves in students' lives is with regards to disciplining students for behavior that occurs OFF-SITE and which did not involve a school-related function. Ex: Bobby and Tim get into an argument in the locker room after PE. One says 'I'll meet you after school and settle this!'. They meet 7 miles away from school in Farmer Tom's hay field and slug it out. becasue the argument which instigated the fight occured at school, the school administration claims 'jurisdiction' and suspends the two kids for fighting. THAT is really stretching things.
BTW...Buttercup: How were YOU disciplined as a child?
One area in which school systems unnecessarily involve themselves in students' lives is with regards to disciplining students for behavior that occurs OFF-SITE and which did not involve a school-related function. Ex: Bobby and Tim get into an argument in the locker room after PE. One says 'I'll meet you after school and settle this!'. They meet 7 miles away from school in Farmer Tom's hay field and slug it out. becasue the argument which instigated the fight occured at school, the school administration claims 'jurisdiction' and suspends the two kids for fighting. THAT is really stretching things.
BTW...Buttercup: How were YOU disciplined as a child?
quote:Originally posted by Buttercup:quote:
I never said this was appropriate workplace discipline. However, as a Christian, "spare the rod and spoil the child" was not a suggestion. It doesn't say to spare the rod from the child and do all you can to spoil the child. The verse implies that, without proper discipline, a child will go bad (spoil).
Here we go with the old "spare the rod and spoil the child" stuff. This is not a literal command - just like you can't take much of what the bible says literally - but that's a concept you don't comprehend. God meant for us to set boundaries and discipline our kids (discipline means "teach", not hit). You don't have to spank your kids and make them fear you to make them mind. I know this because I know way too many parents who have done it.quote:
You can post references to all the studies you want. I can post references to personal life experiences. It has been my experience that the worst-behaved children I've seen in my nearly 40 years of existence are the ones who have been spared the rod. My 6 year old is the best-behaved of all his cousins and is the one who receives proper discipline. The rest get "Now, so-and-so, don't do that. That's not nice. If you do it again. . ." over and over and over, until the situation escalates to a point where I've felt it necessary to say something. Then, some parent gets his/her feelings hurt because I had the stones to tell their brat to knock it off immediately or suffer. Guess what. . . The poor behavior was culled that instant.
Your six-year-old's cousins had no limits imposed on them, simple as that.quote:
You don't talk to kids like they're your friend when you're trying to enforce the rules. There's a time for being friends and there's a time for being a parent.
LOL! Show me where I've said on this thread, or any thread, that parents should be friends with their kids. Don't take the conversation in a new direction just because you can't argue a point.
I can argue a point. You "know way too many parents who have done it." So, you're NOT a parent? If not, you're not qualified to add to the conversation. Finally, the use of the word "you" can sometimes be used generally, to imply all parents, not merely the person to whom I am replying. Your superior liberal intellect should have picked up on this.
My niece has a 3 year old that started biting other kids. She had never spanked her and instead had been using time out, taking toys away and talking. We suggested spanking her and she didn't want to. I completely understand not wanting to spank your child. I never enjoyed it or liked it. However after she bit a baby and left quite a large bruise my niece finally gave her a spanking. She started to bite her little brother a few days later and my niece reminded her of the spanking and said she would get another one if she did it again. That was 6 months ago and the biting has stopped.
She had never been spanked before but she was acting violently to other children....She was disciplined in many ways before the spanking. The spanking is what worked. Sometimes it is the answer.
She had never been spanked before but she was acting violently to other children....She was disciplined in many ways before the spanking. The spanking is what worked. Sometimes it is the answer.
quote:Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
Sorry, Jeepin'. I overlooked the word 'opinion' in your post.
One area in which school systems unnecessarily involve themselves in students' lives is with regards to disciplining students for behavior that occurs OFF-SITE and which did not involve a school-related function. Ex: Bobby and Tim get into an argument in the locker room after PE. One says 'I'll meet you after school and settle this!'. They meet 7 miles away from school in Farmer Tom's hay field and slug it out. becasue the argument which instigated the fight occured at school, the school administration claims 'jurisdiction' and suspends the two kids for fighting. THAT is really stretching things.
BTW...Buttercup: How were YOU disciplined as a child?
I would say that is definately stretching it.
BTW: Its all good ;o)
Jeepin'
I'm guessing buttercup was not spanked as a child.
I don't have to spank my son.. I just have to reach for the vacuum cleaner tube and he falls right into compliance 
Oh, I know, I'm a bad father because, not often but from time to time I have to lay a couple onto my boys backside.. It's none of your business
The problems come in when we let these weirdo's condemn us for what we know is the right thing to do.. nothing gets the point across better than a couple of well placed smacks on them little duffs
Oh, I know, I'm a bad father because, not often but from time to time I have to lay a couple onto my boys backside.. It's none of your business
The problems come in when we let these weirdo's condemn us for what we know is the right thing to do.. nothing gets the point across better than a couple of well placed smacks on them little duffs
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"
I agree totally.
quote:Originally posted by Jankinonya:
My niece has a 3 year old that started biting other kids. She had never spanked her and instead had been using time out, taking toys away and talking. We suggested spanking her and she didn't want to. I completely understand not wanting to spank your child. I never enjoyed it or liked it. However after she bit a baby and left quite a large bruise my niece finally gave her a spanking. She started to bite her little brother a few days later and my niece reminded her of the spanking and said she would get another one if she did it again. That was 6 months ago and the biting has stopped.
She had never been spanked before but she was acting violently to other children....She was disciplined in many ways before the spanking. The spanking is what worked. Sometimes it is the answer.
Jankin,
I'm sure you know three-year-olds bite and hit when they are frustrated or angry because they do not yet have the capability to fully express how they feel with words. How many three-year-olds do you know of that can articulate to a playmate, "Please don't take the toy I'm playing with out of my hands. That's unfair." They can't, so they hit or bite.
Pediatricians and child development experts will tell you to remove the child from the situation when this happens and explain to him/her, "We don't bite/hit our friends because biting/hitting hurts the friend." Yes, you'll have to do it a few times before it sinks in, but it will work. This also teaches empathy for others' pain - something that's crucial to learn during the early years (so that he's less likely to become a bully later on).
What I don't understand is why would you spank (and inflict pain on) a child who bit/hit (and inflicted pain on) another child? That sends mixed messages: It's okay for me to spank you but you can't hit or bite your friend.
Many times to discipline is to teach a better way. This is a great example of it because, again, removing the child and explaining it hurts a person when you bite or hit him, teaches empathy for others' feelings and it helps the child learn self-control - i.e., the more this method is reinforced, the more the child will learn how to manage his own anger without mom's intervention in the future.
And isn't that part of our jobs as parents - to prepare our children for the world?
Wouldn't you rather your child learn to control his actions using this method than to spank him and teach him nothing? He's going to have to learn how to control frustration and anger (on his own) sometime.
I know you don't agree. Got it. But this isn't coming from me, these are recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.
quote:American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.
I daresay Pediatricians who are also parents will be divided on this debate as well.In fact, I **KNOW** some pediatricians that spank their children. Even use the "switch".
You are never going to get people to agree on this topic, I'm afraid. I will never stop spanking my kids when they deserve it, and a nonspanker will never suddenly bring out the switch/paddle....
this is an "agree to disagree" moment.
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:quote:American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.
I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.
You do, huh? Names?
If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.
The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?
Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.
YES they are members, and NO I would not dare divulge names. That's not my place. But rest assured, it's true.
Spanking is a parenting issue, not a medical one.
Spanking is a parenting issue, not a medical one.
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
YES they are members, and NO I would not dare divulge names. That's not my place. But rest assured, it's true.
Spanking is a parenting issue, not a medical one.
Fair enough. Send me a PM then. I want to investigate this. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe you.
quote:Originally posted by Buttercup:
What I don't understand is why would you spank (and inflict pain on) a child who bit/hit (and inflicted pain on) another child? That sends mixed messages: It's okay for me to spank you but you can't hit or bite your friend.
Many times to discipline is to teach a better way. This is a great example of it because, again, removing the child and explaining it hurts a person when you bite or hit him, teaches empathy for others' feelings and it helps the child learn self-control - i.e., the more this method is reinforced, the more the child will learn how to manage his own anger without mom's intervention in the future.
i think perhaps you misunderstand something.
useing this, and yes, i agree it's a good example, i, a pro spanking parent would have handled it this way:
we'll call the biter kate and the bitten will be tom.
Tom:WAHHHHHHHHHHH KATE BIT ME!
father: why did you bit tom?
kate: he tooked my toy.
Father: kate, you can't bite or hit people. it hurts them, and makes them feel bad. you wouldn't like it if someone bit you, would you? don't bite tom, or i'll have to spank you, and you won't like that either.
<30 minutes later>
< CHOMP >
tom: WAHH AHH AHHH KATE BIT ME!
father: Kate, come here, NOW!
father: kate, i told you not to bite. i told you if you bit tim i'd have to spank you. this is your last warning - once more and i will get the paddle. you cannot go around biting people just because they do something that makes you upset. if he takes your toy or pushes you or bites you, you come tell me. did he take your toy again?
kate: no he tooked ta nother one, the geen tuck.
father: the green truck? that's his toy, katie, yours was the blue racecar.
kate: tommy tooked ta bu aceka too.
father: then you should have come and told me or your mother that tom wasn't shareing, and we'll take care of it. you do not bite people, ever. understand me? this is the last warning. next time you get spanked.
<30 minutes later>
tom: WHAAAAA KATIE BITTED ME SOME MORE!!!
father: kate, why did you bite him?
kate: i duno.
father: tom, why did kate bite you, did you take her toy again and wouldn't share?
tom: i duno. i hadda lello hacega, and was givin it to her and she bitted my hand.
father: the racecar is blue, the truck is green, the tractor is yellow.
tom nods : lello takta
father: what did i say katie?
kate: if i bited tom, i gets paddles.
father right. so, what happenes now?
kate: i gets paddles>
father: right. why do i have to paddle you?
kate: cause i bit tom and you told not don't and i bited him and so said don't or i get paddles, and i bited him again.
Buttercup, you seem to think that the situation would resemble this scene-
tom: WHAAAAAA KATE BIT ME
father: Don't bite people
now.. i cannot speak for other parents or how they handle it, but that's how we handle here.. baseball rules - three strikes, and your out, with spanking as the final option and making it clear that the they will be spanked, with the option up to them to take the non paddleing way out by not repeating whatever it was they did.
part of it was also an underlying lesson that their actions carry consequinces that they must accept responsibility for.
if you do (a), then (b) will happen. if you don't want to deal with (b), then don't do (a).
we don't just walk around willynilly whoping our kids without makeing sure that they understand why, and giving them the chance to correct their behavior themselves. spanking has always been the last resort, but we set that last resort with 3 strikes. i've seen parents threaten a spanking if the action was repeated... for time after time, never acctually getting around the spanking part, and leting the child get away with whatever it was over and over until, finally frustrated enough they said 'that's it, go to your room!" from the parent.
they must be taught that there are limits and boundries, and spanking, when used appoprietly, is an extremely effective tool to that end.
used incorrectly, it can make the situation worse, engender resentment and hate.
but like i said.. i won't tell you to beat yours as long as you don't tell me i can't beat mine. as long as the parent remembers that we aren't 'raiseing kids' but instead are 'raising tomorrows adults' then i don't care whether the parent spanks or not. if you raise children, then they're going to BE children, even when they hit 30.
i just wanted to make sure that pro-spankers.. well... that at least my wife and i use your methods at first... explain, try to engage empathy and understanding and get the child involved in the situation from more than just the offended and offender point of view, but that there will be clear, sharp, unhappy consequences if they continue to engage in the undesired behavior.
quote:Originally posted by thenagel:quote:Originally posted by Buttercup:
What I don't understand is why would you spank (and inflict pain on) a child who bit/hit (and inflicted pain on) another child? That sends mixed messages: It's okay for me to spank you but you can't hit or bite your friend.
Many times to discipline is to teach a better way. This is a great example of it because, again, removing the child and explaining it hurts a person when you bite or hit him, teaches empathy for others' feelings and it helps the child learn self-control - i.e., the more this method is reinforced, the more the child will learn how to manage his own anger without mom's intervention in the future.
i think perhaps you misunderstand something.
useing this, and yes, i agree it's a good example, i, a pro spanking parent would have handled it this way:
we'll call the biter kate and the bitten will be tom.
Tom:WAHHHHHHHHHHH KATE BIT ME!
father: why did you bit tom?
kate: he tooked my toy.
Father: kate, you can't bite or hit people. it hurts them, and makes them feel bad. you wouldn't like it if someone bit you, would you? don't bite tom, or i'll have to spank you, and you won't like that either.father: tom, kate shouldn't have bitten you, and you shouldn't have taken her toy. play nice together, or you'll be sent to your rooms and won't be allowed to play together at all.
<30 minutes later>
< CHOMP >
tom: WAHH AHH AHHH KATE BIT ME!
father: Kate, come here, NOW!
father: kate, i told you not to bite. i told you if you bit tim i'd have to spank you. this is your last warning - once more and i will get the paddle. you cannot go around biting people just because they do something that makes you upset. if he takes your toy or pushes you or bites you, you come tell me. did he take your toy again?
kate: no he tooked ta nother one, the geen tuck.
father: the green truck? that's his toy, katie, yours was the blue racecar.
kate: tommy tooked ta bu aceka too.
father: then you should have come and told me or your mother that tom wasn't shareing, and we'll take care of it. you do not bite people, ever. understand me? this is the last warning. next time you get spanked.
<30 minutes later>
tom: WHAAAAA KATIE BITTED ME SOME MORE!!!
father: kate, why did you bite him?
kate: i duno.
father: tom, why did kate bite you, did you take her toy again and wouldn't share?
tom: i duno. i hadda lello hacega, and was givin it to her and she bitted my hand.
father: the racecar is blue, the truck is green, the tractor is yellow.
tom nods : lello takta
father: what did i say katie?
kate: if i bited tom, i gets paddles.
father right. so, what happenes now?
kate: i gets paddles>
father: right. why do i have to paddle you?
kate: cause i bit tom and you told not don't and i bited him and so said don't or i get paddles, and i bited him again.
Buttercup, you seem to think that the situation would resemble this scene-
tom: WHAAAAAA KATE BIT ME
father: Don't bite people
now.. i cannot speak for other parents or how they handle it, but that's how we handle here.. baseball rules - three strikes, and your out, with spanking as the final option and making it clear that the they will be spanked, with the option up to them to take the non paddleing way out by not repeating whatever it was they did.
part of it was also an underlying lesson that their actions carry consequinces that they must accept responsibility for.
if you do (a), then (b) will happen. if you don't want to deal with (b), then don't do (a).
we don't just walk around willynilly whoping our kids without makeing sure that they understand why, and giving them the chance to correct their behavior themselves. spanking has always been the last resort, but we set that last resort with 3 strikes. i've seen parents threaten a spanking if the action was repeated... for time after time, never acctually getting around the spanking part, and leting the child get away with whatever it was over and over until, finally frustrated enough they said 'that's it, go to your room!" from the parent.
they must be taught that there are limits and boundries, and spanking, when used appoprietly, is an extremely effective tool to that end.
used incorrectly, it can make the situation worse, engender resentment and hate.
but like i said.. i won't tell you to beat yours as long as you don't tell me i can't beat mine. as long as the parent remembers that we aren't 'raiseing kids' but instead are 'raising tomorrows adults' then i don't care whether the parent spanks or not. if you raise children, then they're going to BE children, even when they hit 30.
i just wanted to make sure that pro-spankers.. well... that at least my wife and i use your methods at first... explain, try to engage empathy and understanding and get the child involved in the situation from more than just the offended and offender point of view, but that there will be clear, sharp, unhappy consequences if they continue to engage in the undesired behavior.
What I described works, thenagel, without the threat of spanking.
I did enjoy your story, though.
