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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.
Last edited by Buttercup
Here's an interesting side to this. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the television show "Supernanny" with Jo Frost.

I've watched plenty of episodes and have seen the most out of control children - of all ages - you could possibly imagine. It's always the same: the parents' form of discipline is spanking and yelling, and it never works; hence, the call to the Supernanny.

Jo Frost has been a nanny for over 20 years and has come across every conceivable behavioral situation. AND NEVER, NOT ONCE, HAS SHE ENCOURAGED A PARENT TO SPANK as discipline.

Here's a great related article:

http://www.associatedcontent.c...spanking.html?cat=25
Here is an ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC article from Parenting Magazine - a Q&A with Dr. William Sears.

Dr. Sears' background:

Author of over 30 books on childcare. Dr. Sears is an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine. Dr. Sears received his pediatric training at Harvard Medical School's Children's Hospital in Boston and The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto -- the largest children’s hospital in the world, where he served as associate ward chief of the newborn nursery and associate professor of pediatrics. Dr. Sears is a fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and a fellow of the Royal College of Pediatricians (RCP). Dr. Sears is also a medical and parenting consultant for BabyTalk and Parenting magazines and the pediatrician on the website.

The article:

quote:

Q. My husband believes in spanking, but I don't. How can we come to an agreement on how best to discipline our kids?


A. I've practiced pediatrics for 35 years and raised eight children with my wife. Over the years, I've seen lots of children grow up, and I've become more and more convinced that spanking is not the best solution when it comes to child discipline. In my opinion, "sparing the rod" results in emotionally healthier and better disciplined children. In fact, based on increasing scientific evidence against spanking and anti-spanking opinions among child development researchers, most European and Scandinavian countries have enacted laws against spanking. In addition, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child declared spanking a form of violence and supports the creation of laws against physical punishment. Besides those facts, here is some other information you can share with your husband that might encourage him to rethink his position on spanking:

Spanking doesn't work. In my practice, I have had parents who spank and those who don't. With the ones who do, I've seen that it just doesn't work. Many times the parent will say, "The more we spank, the worse he behaves!" Spanking creates a distance between parent and child. It doesn't promote good behavior, and if it seems to discourage bad behavior, it does so more by force than desire.

As parents of a large family, my wife and I have had to run a well-disciplined household, so I believe in discipline that works. Since my wife and I are aware of the research against spanking and have rarely seen it work, we adapted a "no spanking" attitude in disciplining our children. Having decided that we would not spank our children -- but we would discipline them -- forced us to learn better discipline techniques. If you program yourself with "I will not hit my child," it forces you to stop and take the time to think, "Is there a better way I can handle this situation?"

Spanking models violence. When a big person hits a little person, especially out of anger, it can tell the child that it's okay to hit people. The mom of one of my patients once told me that she thought she had to spank her child to be a good disciplinarian -- until one day she observed her 3-year-old daughter hitting her younger brother. When the mom intervened, the daughter said, "I'm just playing mommy." Obviously, there was no more spanking in that house!

In a child's mind, if Mom or Dad does something, it's okay. If you vent your anger by hitting your child, then it's harder to rationalize to your child why he shouldn't hit someone when he's angry. Empathy -- the ability to think before you act and imagine how your actions will affect the other person -- is one of the main qualities that we want to instill in our children. Spanking sabotages empathy. A child is likely to haul off and hit another child without considering whether his actions are going to hurt the other person.

Research supports not spanking. Long-term studies have shown that children who were spanked tend to be more physically violent as teenagers and adults, are more likely to be bullies at school, and are generally more antisocial. In addition, children who were spanked excessively had a four times greater incidence of becoming spouse-abusers as adults. Spanking families plant the seed of violence in the next generation.

So how should you discipline your child? Getting behind the eyes of your child can do wonders for prompting you to click into a much more sensitive mode of disciplining than spanking. When he misbehaves, stop and think: "If I were my child, how would I want my parent to handle this?" Spanking is simply a force that gets a kid to stop the misbehavior at that particular time. Remember, discipline means teaching. You want your child to obey because he has learned to make his own choices of what is right or wrong, not out of fear of getting spanked.

If your husband wants to learn discipline techniques other than spanking, have him read our book, The Discipline Book, for many sensitive strategies that can replace spanking in your home.



Oh, I know, he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:


What I described works, thenagel, without the threat of spanking.

I did enjoy your story, though. Big Grin[/QUOTE]

what i described works as well, generally faster and with less reapeted offense. i wonder how many times the kid got bit before your no no no took effect.

skip that... that was snotty....

lets do this... add a qualifer, and i'll agree with you Smiler

what you described CAN work.
if it worked in every case every time then my kids would have never been spanked. i suspect that spanking as a whole would have died out decades ago if a child did what they were told to every time and never disobeyed.

if spanking NEVER worked, why would anyone do it?
if spanking was ALWAYS required, hospitals would hand our Baby's First Paddle along with those overpriced crib photos.

spanking can work well, but should be used sparringly and only if required.
non spanking can work well, but i have met kids who would end up ruling the house if not physical consequinces.

what bothers me about this whole deal, is that you seem to be under the misconception that all children will respond positivly to words and little insignificant punishments alone. it's like, you just cannot accept the possibility that a child will learn that the worst thing that he'll ever get for outright rebellion will be a stern talking to and a time out. if the child knows that nothing will really be done, what's to stop him from walking out the door while your trying to engage his empathy. what if he doesn't have a sense of empathy? so you take away his car keys. and if he dumps your purse on the ground and takes your keys and leaves in the car? what then?
maybe your kid wouldn't. some would.

not every kid has an ipod or cell pohne or computer or xbox or such that can be taken away. my kids were around 8 or 9 before we finally allowed a playstation into the house, they will be at least 16 when they get a cell, because i'm not paying for one.

i freely admit that spanking isn't always required, if often used when it shouldn't be.
can you admit that sometimes there are kids that don't respond as desired to a no spanking ever style of parenting?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All right ,Buttercup, if you don't stop this arguing and back talk, you are going to get a spanking. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. I respect your point of view and rather enjoy this argument.


Promise? Wink Big Grin

Yeah, I've noticed a couple of people asking whether or not I was spanked as a child/making comments like, "I'm guessing Buttercup was not spanked as a child."

I know what's going on. They're all implying that I'm in need of a spanking. Sadists! They can get their kicks on Route 66, not on Buttercup.
No, buttercup, sorry,but I won't PM you pediatricians names...there is no need for you to investigate- like I said it's a parenting style, not a public issue-
I mean,really. You expect me to tell you which peds I have seen spank on the soccer/baseball/school field?
Oh, and to answer your question, I draw the line at CHILD ABUSE. Not a spanking. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


oh good god.
this is on my 'top ten list of stupidest things ever said' list.

are you seriously trying to equate child molestation with spanking?

i was begining to respect you as an intellegent, thoughtful person who was merely on the opposite end of this issue from me.

now i'm begining to think you really are one of the free-ager, leftover-hippie wannabe nutjob types that think all the kids at the ball game need to get a trophy because it would be horrible if any one acctually lost, who thinks their kids would never ever misbehave only to find out that your 15 year old is now about to be a mother because they never learned right from wrong, good form bad, smart from stupid - because all they learned is to make sure they snuck around behind moms back and if they kept her clueless they could get away with whatever and your 17 year old son is the biggest drug deal at school, because mom really believed those weird looking plants mixed in with her begonias are just a project from science class last year... you know.. a simple, oblivious bimbo with blinders on who paints a coat of laquer over how she wants to see the world and calls it the truth, regardless of how many times she's presented with cold hard fact that the world isn't a pretty fluffy place liek she wants to believe it is.

i could be wrong. i hope i'm wrong. i was begining to like you, but to put me in the same company as a child molester? that's outragously insulting and makes me more than just a little angry -
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Here is an ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC article from Parenting Magazine - a Q&A with Dr. William Sears.

Dr. Sears' background:

Author of over 30 books on childcare. Dr. Sears is an Associate Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, School of Medicine. Dr. Sears received his pediatric training at Harvard Medical School's Children's Hospital in Boston and The Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto -- the largest children’s hospital in the world, where he served as associate ward chief of the newborn nursery and associate professor of pediatrics. Dr. Sears is a fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and a fellow of the Royal College of Pediatricians (RCP). Dr. Sears is also a medical and parenting consultant for BabyTalk and Parenting magazines and the pediatrician on the website.


Oh, I know, he doesn't know what he's talking about, right?


dunno. maybe he does. but he isn't raiseing my kids, so i don't care much what he thinks.

should i start doing google search for quotes from people with ph'ds who think spanking IS necessary?

would it make you change your mind?

would you even read it?

i didn't read yours, there was no point. you pop up words form someone who already agrees with you, and it going to argue against my belief.. no.. my knowledge that useing a paddle worked quite well for my wife and i.
i *know* it worked for us. you cna spout theory and test and studies and quotes form all the limpwristed big-brains you can think of, but it won't change what i've seen in action.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


oh good god.
this is on my 'top ten list of stupidest things ever said' list.

are you seriously trying to equate child molestation with spanking?

i was begining to respect you as an intellegent, thoughtful person who was merely on the opposite end of this issue from me.

now i'm begining to think you really are one of the free-ager, leftover-hippie wannabe nutjob types that think all the kids at the ball game need to get a trophy because it would be horrible if any one acctually lost, who thinks their kids would never ever misbehave only to find out that your 15 year old is now about to be a mother because they never learned right from wrong, good form bad, smart from stupid - because all they learned is to make sure they snuck around behind moms back and if they kept her clueless they could get away with whatever and your 17 year old son is the biggest drug deal at school, because mom really believed those weird looking plants mixed in with her begonias are just a project from science class last year... you know.. a simple, oblivious bimbo with blinders on who paints a coat of laquer over how she wants to see the world and calls it the truth, regardless of how many times she's presented with cold hard fact that the world isn't a pretty fluffy place liek she wants to believe it is.

i could be wrong. i hope i'm wrong. i was begining to like you, but to put me in the same company as a child molester? that's outragously insulting and makes me more than just a little angry -


thenagel,

Slow down. And why aren't you putting into use the period key on your keyboard? That's one heckuva run-on sentence.

Take a deep breath and read my post again. I did not in any way imply that parents who spank their children are child molesters; I asked a question. There's a difference between asking questions and making full-on assumptions.

You are not familiar with my modus operandi, so YOU don't make assumptions yet either, okay?

....and all the kids at the ballgame shouldn't get a trophy? Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
All right ,Buttercup, if you don't stop this arguing and back talk, you are going to get a spanking. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. I respect your point of view and rather enjoy this argument.


so did i, until she called me a child molester.


Good Lord! Show me where in my post I called you or vplee123 a child molester.

First of all, I thought vplee123 was a woman. Secondly, I asked, "IF A FATHER WAS MOLESTING HIS CHILD...", not "If vplee123 was molesting his child..."

The point of the question was to find out where vplee123 would draw the line. If it's nobody's business how you discipline your child, is it your business that YOUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR is molesting his child?

Again, you're implying some sort of ownership of the child. Couldn't a child-molesting father argue the same thing: It's no one's business?

thenagel, I'm asking this of vplee.
quote:
Again, you're implying some sort of ownership of the child. Couldn't a child-molesting father argue the same thing: It's no one's business?


The difference, buttercup is that one act is criminal, and the other is not.
Spanking is a method of discipline. Nothing more, nothing less. Child molestation is a criminal act. We as a society to have a moral obligation to report/protect those children.
Now, spanking does not fall into this category.
I cannot tell you how many times I have swatted my kids (4 of them) behinds. And when I do, it is NO FUN, but it is sometimes necessary. And I can also assure you that they are healthy, happy well adjusted children.
To equate spanking with child molestation is preposterous.
Anyway, like I've said, we're prolly not going to agree on this- I don't buy in to Dr. Sears philosophies. And I have read it all. I especially disagree with his theory on co-sleeping. Worst mistake we ever made! Smiler
I am more on the "Dr. Ferber" end of the spectrum. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have been publicly reprimanded for swatting my child's behind in Target. A firm and swift swat. (He was prob. 6ish at the time). I was so mad that I was seething. Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child.
Having said that, I have witnessed a mom "whaling" on her child in a store, clearly out of control. There is an IMMENSE difference. A swift swat is sometimes what they need to keep in line. BUT in a controlled manner. Just my opinion.
Kids were much better behaved (in general) in the "Wait till your father gets home generation!"


Your quote: "Now, it's nobody's business how I discipline my child."

Question: If a father was molesting his child would it be anyone's business? Your statement implies some sort of ownership over a human being - a child. I'm just wondering where you would draw the line.


Okay, I just re-read my post and can see where you think that's what I was asking. Sorry. I should have been more thoughtful with how I posed the question.

What I meant by "a father" was anyone, a neighbor, a friend. If you as a neighbor or friend or whatever knew about it, would it be your business to call the authorities and report it?
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.


You do, huh? Names?

If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.

The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?

Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.


I'm confused -- are you implying that a pediatrician that endorses spanking is not fit to be a peditrician or should be removed from being a pediatrician? They are entitled to their opinions as well as any researcher is -- so I don't understand why them agreeing that a swat might be just what the doctor ordered just as much as an apple a day will keep the doctor away? My pediatrician didn't have a sign on his wall telling me spanking was the best discipline, but he also wasn't big on "time out" either. He's retired now, but he was a great physician and while he gave great advice -- he never said spanking was a bad thing. Then again, there is a major difference between a spanking and a beating -- spanking and the fear of worked for me and my siblings.

I see all your research, but just like with statistics -- you can make some things bend and twist to say anything you want it to say. How I discipline my child is my business and how my neighbor disciplines his child is his business. If he were physically abusing and sexually abusing his child -- I would report him.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I daresay Pediatricians who are also parents will be divided on this debate as well.In fact, I **KNOW** some pediatricians that spank their children. Even use the "switch".
You are never going to get people to agree on this topic, I'm afraid. I will never stop spanking my kids when they deserve it, and a nonspanker will never suddenly bring out the switch/paddle....
this is an "agree to disagree" moment.



When my daughter was 3, and in daycare, she would come home with bite marks, courtesy of a kid in her class. The aides at the daycare were of no help, citing all sorts of Dr. Spock crap. One visit to her pediatrician for an unrelated incident produced a solution: Her pediatrician said if she was bitten again, have her bite the kid back to show him how it felt. He bit her again, she bit back. End of story.
quote:
Originally posted by Eastside:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
American Academy of Pediatrics - a group that is completely against spanking. Yes, I know, their views don't matter either.


I know plenty of Pediatricians that spank. Sometimes a good old fashioned paddle/hand/switch is in order..........to each his own.


You do, huh? Names?

If they endorse spanking, they are not members of the American Academy of Pediatrics or don't support the view of the vast majority of members.

The AAP has a membership of 60K pediatricians. If these "doctors" you know aren't members, they are seriously in the minority and one would have to wonder why they aren't affiliated with the AAP. Were they kicked out for some reason? Do they have valid licenses?

Yeah, Michael Jackson was under the care of a great physician too.


I'm confused -- are you implying that a pediatrician that endorses spanking is not fit to be a peditrician or should be removed from being a pediatrician? They are entitled to their opinions as well as any researcher is -- so I don't understand why them agreeing that a swat might be just what the doctor ordered just as much as an apple a day will keep the doctor away? My pediatrician didn't have a sign on his wall telling me spanking was the best discipline, but he also wasn't big on "time out" either. He's retired now, but he was a great physician and while he gave great advice -- he never said spanking was a bad thing. Then again, there is a major difference between a spanking and a beating -- spanking and the fear of worked for me and my siblings.

I see all your research, but just like with statistics -- you can make some things bend and twist to say anything you want it to say. How I discipline my child is my business and how my neighbor disciplines his child is his business. If he were physically abusing and sexually abusing his child -- I would report him.


Yes, I know research means nothing to some people except when it concerns drug trials or cancer break-throughs. Then those people pay attention to it.

But none of you - especially in this part of the country - will admit that you only spank your children because momma-and-daddy did and it's the only way you know. There is tons and tons of information about the research available supporting my position (so this isn't coming from Buttercup). There are so many BETTER alternatives to spanking. But it doesn't matter, it's not what momma-and-daddy did.

God himself could appear before some of you and tell you he didn't mean for you to take "Spare the rod...." literally, but you'd still spank because that's what momma-and-daddy did.

So go ahead, switch their little legs, tan their little behinds, make that belt mean some business because discipline isn't at all about the child or the child learning anything or the child's future; it's about the parents and what their own momma-and-daddy did.

Turn out more kids who are more likely to become violent as teenagers and adults; who are more likely to abuse their own spouses; who are more likely to be bullies, alcoholics, socially withdrawn. Go ahead, because that's what momma-and-daddy did.

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