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I was reading Crusty's post on the signers of the Constitution. I found it extremely interesting, and if I had read much of this before, I had forgotten it. I was interested in the two named as Lutheran.

 

If you grew up in Florence, there's a 50-50 chance you went to Appleby Junior High, or if older the pre-1948 Coffee building. Almost directly across from the old Coffee/Appleby location is a Lutheran Church on Poplar Street. I was in it once, but have forgotten much; I remember it as being very nice. The point being it is something I took for granted.

 

Years later, while doing some study on Dr. Von Braun and the other German scientists who moved to Huntsville after WWII, I learned that until they came, there was no Lutheran Church in that city. I found that very surprising.

 

Does anyone have any idea why the Lutheran Church was not, or is not, spread widely over the south? I know there were many waves of Germans who came here. My German ancestors were something along the line of Anabaptists, but members of the Christian Church (church of Christ) by 1813 when they moved to Limestone County. Surely many Germans were Lutheran...so any ideas?

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Semi, if you mean about the Lutherans, I was completely serious. I grew up only a few blocks from the old Appleby and then went to 7th-9th grades there, so a Lutheran Church building was something I saw almost every day. I was over 40 when I went back to college for my nursing degree and also took some history classes. Was completely amazed there was no Lutheran Church in a city the size of H'ville before the late 1940s. I wondered if there was another denomination that "took in" the Lutheran immigrants before that time...or if something else was going on.

 

If you mean the question about using a funny statement in a signature line, that could go either way. Crusty and Interventor have funny signature lines. I've used humor in the past, as well as social statements. Humor at rramn's expense? Hmmmm. I may change mine.

OK, found this:

http://www.stmarkshsv.org/page29.php

 

St. Mark's is a dynamic and growing congregation of the 4.9 million Evangelical Lutheran Churches in America.

We are centered on our mission which is "Saved by grace, we are called to CELEBRATE, SERVE, and MAKE DISCIPLES for Christ."  

We try to keep it simple.  We are a C.H.U.R.C.H. which means we have Christ as our head; we are a Home for spiritual seekers.  We have an Urgency about telling the good news so that all may have a Relationship with God through Christ and also relate to other seekers.




Creepy.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

OK, found this:

http://www.stmarkshsv.org/page29.php

 

St. Mark's is a dynamic and growing congregation of the 4.9 million Evangelical Lutheran Churches in America.

We are centered on our mission which is "Saved by grace, we are called to CELEBRATE, SERVE, and MAKE DISCIPLES for Christ."  

We try to keep it simple.  We are a C.H.U.R.C.H. which means we have Christ as our head; we are a Home for spiritual seekers.  We have an Urgency about telling the good news so that all may have a Relationship with God through Christ and also relate to other seekers.


 


Creepy.

___________________________

 

"Creepy" because to you and your belligerent ilk, virtually any kind of favorable reference to religion is "creepy."  THAT attitude strikes me as far more creepy than anything in the link you posted.

Oh blah blah blah blah contendah you belligerent old twerp. You have no idea why I posted creepy.  You, like bill, are a FINE example of a christian-not. I couldn't care less about "favorable" mention of religion or what you think. It's way more than creepy to think they'd start a church for the benefit of war criminals.

Hi Jennifer,

 

I will have to admit that I, too, read your "creepy" as a reference to what was written on the Lutheran church web site about serving God and being His witness.  If that was not your intent -- then, please tell us your real intent.  I honestly do not want to attribute thought or action to you that is erroneous.

 

Thank you and God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote: Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

I don't know which lutheran church was the first in huntsville, grace lutheran in 1958 maybe, so I couldn't say where the war crimials "worshiped" until they had their own church.


Hi Jennifer


I believe you are right that the German scientist and engineers brought to Huntsville after World War 2 greatly impacted that area -- and, most likely, the Lutheran church in that area.

In 1968/69 I was moved to Huntsville by my company, Digital Equipment Corporation, to sell their computers throughout Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi.  One thing I found in the Huntsville area was a deep respect for Werner von Braun and his team who were instrumental in helping America put a man on the moon.   At that time, every afternoon for several hours, the local radio station played mostly German music.

During my stint in Huntsville, I witnessed no prejudice nor dislike for those in the German community.   Respect, yes -- prejudice, no.  Around 1965, when I worked for the company Scientific Data Systems, one of my friends and fellow Field Engineers was sent to work at Redstone ****nal for a while.  When he returned to Santa Monica, he told about an evening when he was working on a computer and a gentleman with a German accent came to chat with him.  He told us the man was very friendly and pleasant.   Later, Jimmy learned that this man with whom he had chatted -- was Werner von Braun.

Of course, when I lived in Huntsville during the late 1960s, the last thing I was looking for was a church -- of any flavor.  So, I could not tell you about the Lutheran church in Huntsville at that time.  But, the excerpted article below tells us that the Luther Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) did begin to do work in the Huntsville area because of the German scientist and engineers brought there by our government after World War 2.   I find no reference of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) doing any work in that area then; although they are represented there now.


++++++++++++++++++++++
Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in Alabama
http://encyclopediaofalabama.o...rticle.jsp?id=h-2388


The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is the largest Lutheran denomination in Alabama, numbering some 70 congregations with almost 20,000 members. The Synod (known by the acronym LCMS) operates approximately 20 Christian schools scattered throughout the state.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod was formed by German immigrants from Saxony (in present-day Germany) in the 1830s to escape religious persecution by the authorities. Upon arriving in the United States, they traveled up the Mississippi River and settled for the most part in rural Missouri
(Perry County), hence the "Missouri" in the name. Not all these individuals, however, decided to settle in the rural Midwest. Some elected to stay in the southern port cities where they first docked, including New Orleans, Louisiana, and Mobile, Alabama.

Mission work in Huntsville and northwest Alabama was centered around the Redstone ****nal and the German engineers and scientists who settled into the area in the early 1950s. . .


++++++++++++++++++++++

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

  I honestly do not want to attribute thought or action to you that is erroneous.


Hi Jennifer,

 

As I posted in the earlier post:  If that was not your intent (for posting the word "creepy") -- then, please tell us your real intent.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Jennifer,

You tell Firenze, "So anyway fire, the link I posted http://www.stmarkshsv.org/page29.php is what I found that mentions the germans (war criminals) that came to huntsville."

My Friend, I have searched and searched the web site you gave us Firenze -- and, for some reason I cannot find the words "German war criminals" anywhere on that web site.  Obviously I have just missed it.  Will you please show us where you found this written.

But, let me just say this.  The work the German rocket and missile scientists did for America was directly responsible for putting America into space and putting an American on the moon.  From their work, and the subsequent effort to travel into space -- upon the rockets the German rocket and missile scientists gave us -- every aspect of American life has been improved.

From medicine, to food, to clothing, to electronics, to automobile -- there is not one single aspect of your life which has not been improved because of the work pioneered by those "war criminals." 

 

As a matter of fact, the computer sitting on your desk -- most likely would not be there except for the work begun by those German rocket and missile scientists.  We ALL owe a huge debt of gratitude to Werner von Braun and his team.

So, please keep in mind that when you sit at your computer to write a nasty response to this -- Werner von Braun and his team made this possible.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A short History of St. Mark’s Evangelical Lutheran Church
Huntsville, Alabama
http://www.stmarkshsv.org/page29.php


The formation of St. Mark’s 

The arrival of German rocket and missile scientists in 1950 made possible the birth of St. Mark's.  These scientists were part of the reactivation of Redstone ****nal; these men and their families had come to America under the guidance of the United States Army.  They first settled in El Paso, Texas before moving to Huntsville.

In the summer of 1950 the Reverend Dr. Charles E. Linn, President of the Georgia-Alabama Synod of the United Lutheran Church in America was contacted to organize a Lutheran congregation for these German space scientists.  A Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary student, William Hartman, was sent to survey the field and conduct services for interested persons.  That September, the Reverend Dr. William Stup came from Atlanta each Sunday for the services. Roughly 30 people met each week in the former Fifth Avenue Elementary School for worship.  The Episcopal Church of the Nativity helped with office supplies and equipment, church furnishings and facilities to aid the Lutherans in their efforts to initiate a mission.  Seven men from the group secured earnest money to purchase a funeral home to be converted into the first church and a house for a parsonage.  This property was located on the northwest corner of Franklin Street and Longwood Drive.

On February 1, 1951, the Board of American Missions called the Reverend George F. Hart of Jacksonville, Florida to organize the work in Huntsville.  A committee composed of Edward Tesmer, H. Cole Reasin, Hans Freidrich, Fred Schwarz, and Robert Axelson served as a temporary council.  By October, 77 adults and 43 children were on St. Mark's membership roles.  When the congregation was organized formally on Reformation Day, 1951 sixty-six of the confirmed members were German scientists and their wives.

In March 1952, the Board of American Missions loaned $38,000.00 to the Georgia-Alabama Synod to buy the lots at the southeast corner of Franklin Street and Longwood Drive for the future home of the congregation.

On April 28, 1957, Synod President, The Reverend Dr. Charles Fritz, dedicated the new building at Franklin and Longwood. The Reverend Dr. Raymond D. Wood, pastor of Ascension Church, Savannah, Georgia, delivered the sermon.  The Savannah congregation, the home church of St. Mark's first pastor, had adopted St. Mark's as its mission church.

A German touch within the church is an original bronze plaque of Martin Luther, which hangs in the narthex of the current church building.  While serving as legal counselor and Judge Advocate for the General's Staff of the United States Army in Berlin, Robert Kirk Bell saw the plaque on a monument in the Berlin Tiergarten and arranged to get it.  Through Mr. Bell's efforts, the Federal Republic of West Germany presented the plaque to St. Mark's "as a token of appreciation for the spiritual ministry to the German rocket scientists and engineers who relocated to Huntsville in 1950."


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You see bill, you're not as slick as you keep thinking you are. You knew dang well what I meant and where the term came from, and I knew you were fishing for an answer from me about creepy so you could start arguing. I am not going to read your long posts upholding war criminals so if that is your intent, which I am sure it is, you can save your energy. 

quote:  Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

Will you please show us where you found this written.  You will find it written in my posts. Guess the (       ) threw you off.


Hi Jennifer,

 

In other words, it is a reflection of your own prejudice, bias, and bigotry -- and has no basis in truth or anything you found on that web site.  It is a reflection of your own lack of knowledge of the history of  America's journey to space.   Okay, I can buy that.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

  It is a reflection of your own lack of knowledge of the history of  America's journey to space.   


--------------------

I know the history of our journey to space quite well.  Doesn't change the fact they were war criminals. 

___

So, per your "reasoning," scientists working to develop weapons for a nation's military are "war criminals."  Many nations with weaponry obtained it through the efforts of scientist-citizens.  When does that work qualify as criminal activity and when is it not a crime? Be careful with your answer.

The lack of Lutheran churches in North Alabama was probably due to the german immigrants to this area being mostly Catholic. Hence Catholic churches in St. Florian, Loretto, Cullman etc. 

 

As for Von Braun.  He was a member of the SS.  He used slave labor in his work.  He and his team chose the US over surrendering to the Russians.  Depending on your outlook the V-1 and V-2 could be classified as WMDs of their time since their only purpose was terror and indiscriminate killing. The **** govt refered to them as "Vengeance" weapons.  Choose your poison.

I suppose now I'll have to wonder why the German rocket scientists were mainly Lutheran...

 

As for the Lutheran church building in Florence, it may not be as old as I have thought in the past. It does appear to be Alpine architecture. I would love to know the history of the Lutherans in Florence.

 

War Crimes? Remember how young Von Braun was when he worked for his homeland. He was, after all, a product of his environment. Education for all social classes? Our grandparents and great-grandparents never thought much about it because they were too busy eking out a living. Equal pay for equal work? Our female ancestors were too busy running a household without modern appliances, much less birth control, to think about that issue.

 

If these young German scientists did think about their circumstances in the SS, they probably realized there was no way out for them unless Germany lost the war, and that out could have been most unpleasant. No man/woman is the same at 45 as they were at 20, nor will they be the same at 70. One thing that we can be certain evolves is our social conscience.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

I suppose now I'll have to wonder why the German rocket scientists were mainly Lutheran...

 

__________________
Prior to WWII the main religions in Germany were the Catholics and the Protestants who were mostly Lutheran (you know that Martin Luther was a German, right?).  From what I can tell, these two tended to be geographically separate for the most part.  So the odds on bet are that all the German scientists were either Lutheran or Catholic.  If they were Catholic, there was probably already at least one Catholic church for them to attend in Huntsville, or Oak Ridge or wherever they landed. There wouldn't necessarily be a Lutheran church in many Southern communities because their earlier immigration began in the East, spread through the Midwest, and for some strange reason, into Texas.  They generally avoided large cities and stayed in rural areas.
It is somewhat unique that we have a German community in the area - St. Florian - and that St. Michael is of German origin.  Where I'm from the Catholics were mostly Greek and Eastern European.

Why and how German, Italian and Austrian soldiers were brought to the United States and held in prisoner of war camps during the second world war.

 

Most Americans are taught that during World War II, there were Japanese American Interment camps, but very few Americans know that from 1942 to 1946 more than 400,000 German, Italian and Austrian **** prisoners were housed in over five hundred major camps and several satellite camps in many U.S. states, including Ohio, California, Mississippi, Arkansas, Oregon, Georgia, Texas and Nebraska. In Texas alone, there were about seventy camps. Most of the prisoners were enlisted men, but there was a small amount of officers as well.

Read more at Suite101: **** Prisoners On American Soil: Prisoner of War Camps in America During World War II | Suite101.com http://suite101.com/article/**...a26468#ixzz2084Ijneh

 

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We've visited the "museum" in Aliceville, such as it is, and it's very interesting.

 

This article is a reprinting of a piece that appeared in issue 7 (Winter 1988) of Alabama Heritage, pp. 2-29. Copyright The University of Alabama. All rights reserved.
[ Click images to enlarge ]

The slow-turning fans above the soda fountain at Jones’ Drugstore in Aliceville brought scant relief from the sultry heat. It was August of 1942 and the Corps had arrived—the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Everyone had seen them, with their tripods and transits, squinting down imaginary lines over on Doc Parker’s land, near the dairy now operated by the doctor’s son, Tom. The crowd at the drugstore argued endlessly about the significance of the Corps’ presence. Perhaps a military base would be built. There was even the wild rumor that the land would be used to house captured Japanese soldiers. Finally, on September 24, the local paper released the news. Although the details were sketchy, the paper confirmed the conjecture that had monopolized Aliceville gossip for six weeks: “The project will be an alien concentration camp.” 

 

 

More:

http://www.alabamaheritage.com...t/AlicevillePOWs.htm

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